We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 99
  1. #1

    Last Stand should be always available

    Please can we have "Last Stand" as a skill that's always available, regardless of how you spend points on the Trait Tree?
    Really missing it. Used to save my skin many times, but now I can't use it because it's not in the trait line that I prefer to use.
    It should be a skill that's available always, to all Captains.
    Last edited by Kerr_Avon; Jan 02 2014 at 05:17 PM.

  2. #2
    why/how are you even dying?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    why/how are you even dying?
    Irrelevant. If the developers balance the game's dps/mitigation mechanics, this skill will be useful. This is one of the captain's quintessential abilities. It should not be gated by trait selection.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  4. #4
    I agree, this should be a default skill for Captain.

  5. #5
    To me, "Last Stand" (LS) can be likened to "Find the Path" (FtP) for Hunters (my Hunter is level 95, Captain is nearly level 86). Can you imagine if the developers made FtP a Trait Tree skill that was only available in one trait specialisation and you had to "choose it or lose it"? There would be a total outcry from Hunters! Fair enough, LS and FtP are not the same kind of skill, but both, I feel, are an essential and integral part of the respective classes' abilities.

    LS can be used as a great tactic for when you're in a situation where you need to get in and out of a dangerous situation quickly (e.g. a mission) where there would be little chance of survival. You can activate LS at the best moment and escape from the hordes (e.g. an Orc camp) and by the time the timer on LS is up, the enemy forces have given up the chase.

    I really hope the developers take note of this and make LS available to all trait specialisations for the Captain class. Pretty please!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    227
    I agree. Last stand was one of the reasons i started my captain. Even though we are still the "main buffing" class, and have come away with some new power and versatility, i believe we've lost a portion of our identity.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000098f99/01003/signature.png]Truzgaw[/charsig]
    Sokaren - 60 Runekeeper
    Brivlo - 60 Burglar R3
    Mejinboohaha - Reaver R4

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    622
    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    why/how are you even dying?
    This^ This^ This^

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    This^ This^ This^
    This is not the point. Easy content doesn't make you immortal. First of all, Last stand had been a default skill for over 6 years. And, ofcourse, right now HoH captain( and a dps too) doesn't have anything to survive a few seconds if needed, he can't even heal himself directly. Minstrel has baubles and feign death, RK has armor, two baubles, absorb stone.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    622
    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    This is not the point. Easy content doesn't make you immortal.
    So you're saying you want to be immortal, despite easy content? Yeah okay then, why don't you ask for invulnerability to damage too. Oh wait, captains have that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    First of all, Last stand had been a default skill for over 6 years. And, ofcourse, right now HoH captain( and a dps too) doesn't have anything to survive a few seconds if needed, he can't even heal himself directly.
    So that gives it the right to be a base skill? Every other class had to make trade-offs, I'm perfectly happy on my captain without last stand in every trait line. If you're at the point you need to use last stand, something's gone wrong anyway. Redline captains have chosen to trait that way, and are thus relying on another healer. HoH captains, if they are healing solo, they still have the ability to heal themselves (rally cry is more than enough), hopefully the tank will be doing their job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    Minstrel has baubles and feign death, RK has armor, two baubles, absorb stone.
    So you want every ability other classes have? Mirror classes, great idea.
    Last edited by Moors-Battlemaster; Jan 04 2014 at 07:33 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,879
    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    This is not the point. Easy content doesn't make you immortal. First of all, Last stand had been a default skill for over 6 years. And, ofcourse, right now HoH captain( and a dps too) doesn't have anything to survive a few seconds if needed, he can't even heal himself directly. Minstrel has baubles and feign death, RK has armor, two baubles, absorb stone.
    You're now comparing the Captain to two Light armor classes, at best they're sporting 40% mitigations while Captains can get 70% (+ more from herald and other bonuses), which is a huge advantage on its own. Captains mainstat increases parry to give even more survivability. You have Rallying Cry and Inspire regardless of spec and you can get Revealing/Noble Mark fairly easily to increase your self-healing through DPS.

    I wouldn't mind seeing the current IHW trait being changed to give both LS and IHW though.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Central Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    1,902
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerr_Avon View Post
    To me, "Last Stand" (LS) can be likened to "Find the Path" (FtP) for Hunters (my Hunter is level 95, Captain is nearly level 86). Can you imagine if the developers made FtP a Trait Tree skill that was only available in one trait specialisation and you had to "choose it or lose it"?
    They took the core legendary class skill from minstrels- their in combat rez - and only made it available in one spec. We have to 'choose it or lose it.'
    They also took our glowy healing curcle and gave that to cappies. So there you are-no LS but you get to be a mini-mini :P

    And the minstrel sang to them……”and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.”

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    3,203
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    Every other class had to make trade-offs, I'm perfectly happy on my captain without last stand in every trait line. If you're at the point you need to use last stand, something's gone wrong anyway.
    How can someone named "Moors-Battlemaster" say that? Maybe all that has gone wrong is that you are focus-fired in the moors, or your raid needs you to LS-IHW as things are going badly...

    I accept how things are, but think it is sad that a traditional captain role, "disaster recovery", has been relegated to the yellow line. The signature move of capts in the past was to take a failing situation, last stand, IHW, rez a healer, rez a tank, pull defeat from victory. Didn't always work out, but was epic when it did. Now that isn't happening much -- outside the moors, yellow line is probably the least popular. You can use it for tanking and for soloing harder stuff (e.g. soloing 3 man instances or bigger) in PvE, but I'd guess yellow is traited significantly less than the others. In the moors, I observe that basically all capts trait yellow for SoTD if nothing else, as bubbles are king, and now that it is a self bubble you can make last for longer with legacy and jewelry, it is even more critical. And the yellow line is most survivable for other reasons (morale pool, BPE, LS, etc). It is to me unfortunate that I can't reasonably go blue line in the moors, and tying these skills (LS, SoTD) that used to be available in other lines is the cause. Such is life though.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    So you're saying you want to be immortal, despite easy content? Yeah okay then, why don't you ask for invulnerability to damage too. Oh wait, captains have that.



    So that gives it the right to be a base skill? Every other class had to make trade-offs, I'm perfectly happy on my captain without last stand in every trait line. If you're at the point you need to use last stand, something's gone wrong anyway. Redline captains have chosen to trait that way, and are thus relying on another healer. HoH captains, if they are healing solo, they still have the ability to heal themselves (rally cry is more than enough), hopefully the tank will be doing their job.



    So you want every ability other classes have? Mirror classes, great idea.
    I think the issue is LS and IHW and bubble should be in healing line. Let red focus on DPS and yellow focus on buffing in other ways. The way it is currently with yellow having every defensive thing you can dream of us it makes captain an undying object while making the healing line not appealing at all due to loss of bubble and captains unique abilities. I don't see how giving captains last stand in red and blue which are MUCH squishier than yellow is OP at all. Even from your PvP perspective evil the raids i've been in the last few days can kill a yellow trait-ed captain before they can even hit last stand. A blue or red one would be near irrelevant. This is about keeping the class alive and LS utility not a discussion about how OP a yellow or dps captain is in the moors.
    Last edited by YesMaam; Jan 04 2014 at 02:46 PM.
    Yelk, Hunter| Rank 15 | Arkenstone | Leader of Shock and Awe
    Original Challenger of Saruman
    Original Challenger of Gothmog

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    622
    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    I think the issue is LS and IHW and bubble should be in healing line.
    I agree 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by YesMaam View Post
    Even from your PvP perspective evil the raids i've been in the last few days can kill a yellow trait-ed captain before they can even hit last stand.
    A solo captain, or in a small group, then yes, a raid can melt them. RvR with minstrel support? Fat chance.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    You're now comparing the Captain to two Light armor classes, at best they're sporting 40% mitigations while Captains can get 70% (+ more from herald and other bonuses), which is a huge advantage on its own. Captains mainstat increases parry to give even more survivability. You have Rallying Cry and Inspire regardless of spec and you can get Revealing/Noble Mark fairly easily to increase your self-healing through DPS.
    Mitigation doesnt matter much when mobs can melt you down in a few seconds. It just helps to survive one-two more hits. Parry does nothing against arrows or magic. And unlike to other healers Captain can't direct heal himself. Along with skils that have morale cost this is a huge disadvantage. I seriously can't understan the reason behind it. Neither from mechanic, no from RP side. Why do you lose morale while inspiring others? And the more you encourage them, the more faith you lose yourself. It makes no sence


    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    They took the core legendary class skill from minstrels- their in combat rez - and only made it available in one spec.
    Unlike to Last Stand, Rally had never been a default skill. But I belive, that every Captain, Mins or RK should have incombat res, no matter how he is speced.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,879
    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    Mitigation doesnt matter much when mobs can melt you down in a few seconds. It just helps to survive one-two more hits.
    What game are we talking about here? Except for macroing creeps and 6-12 man bosses I can't recall any mob able to rip a on-level LtC/HoH Captain apart in a few seconds. Whatever is able to kill a Captain that quickly can rip a RK or Minstrel apart even quicker, the only exception being Feign Death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    And unlike to other healers Captain can't direct heal himself. Along with skils that have morale cost this is a huge disadvantage. I seriously can't understan the reason behind it. Neither from mechanic, no from RP side. Why do you lose morale while inspiring others? And the more you encourage them, the more faith you lose yourself. It makes no sence
    I mentioned Rallying Cry and Inspire in the previous post, they heal the Captain and that's just for the LtC Captain. HoH Captains can also be healed from Valiant Strike. As for the morale costs I think they're there for mechanic reasons (to make it harder to manage morale as managing power is not a problem and to become more dependent on having a tank in group rather than just tank+heal on his own) and for RP reasons as well (self-sacrifice, giving hope while oneself has none etc)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    What game are we talking about here? Except for macroing creeps and 6-12 man bosses I can't recall any mob able to rip a on-level LtC/HoH Captain apart in a few seconds. Whatever is able to kill a Captain that quickly can rip a RK or Minstrel apart even quicker, the only exception being Feign Death.
    Have you ever had archers, or mages fireing at you? There are a lot situations in group or raid content when you need to "help" yourself, especially if your group is not ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    I mentioned Rallying Cry and Inspire in the previous post, they heal the Captain and that's just for the LtC Captain. HoH Captains can also be healed from Valiant Strike.
    Archers and mages again And let's not compare RC on 15 seconds cd to Bolster Courage(for example) spam. Imo Captain should be able to direct healing himself. And have Last Stand back ofc

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,879
    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    Have you ever had archers, or mages fireing at you? There are a lot situations in group or raid content when you need to "help" yourself, especially if your group is not ideal.
    Yes, but none of those are able to "melt me down in a few seconds. ".

    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    Archers and mages again And let's not compare RC on 15 seconds cd to Bolster Courage(for example) spam. Imo Captain should be able to direct healing himself. And have Last Stand back ofc
    Archers and mages??? If you mean Direct healing as in "instant healing" as opposed to HoTs, that's just not how Captains heal.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Yes, but none of those are able to "melt me down in a few seconds. ".



    Archers and mages??? If you mean Direct healing as in "instant healing" as opposed to HoTs, that's just not how Captains heal.
    But if you've already been placed in a "melt down" situation by taking damage from melee classes, then ranged fire can make a life/death difference if your hit points are low. Last Stand is/was invaluable in such situations. It's not just about surviving, but also about using LS as a tactic. LS doesn't make the Captain immortal, because it only lasts for a very short time and it's on a long timer. It is/was a skill that the Captain used when he/she was in a life and death situation, when all else had failed. That's why it was always a core Captain skill and why it should be available regardless of how one traits the class.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,879
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerr_Avon View Post
    But if you've already been placed in a "melt down" situation by taking damage from melee classes, then ranged fire can make a life/death difference if your hit points are low. Last Stand is/was invaluable in such situations. It's not just about surviving, but also about using LS as a tactic. LS doesn't make the Captain immortal, because it only lasts for a very short time and it's on a long timer. It is/was a skill that the Captain used when he/she was in a life and death situation, when all else had failed. That's why it was always a core Captain skill and why it should be available regardless of how one traits the class.
    If you're getting hammered like that while having a tank in your group it's your tank that needs to step up. If you dont have a tank in group and you're taking damage from melee + "archers and mages" you're more of a tank than a healer and should IMO trait for tanking + off-heal (e.g. get Gallant Display) than being healer.
    Do mind I'm not against moving LS out of LoM, I just don't see any of the situations explained in this thread to be realistic outside of PvMP, and especially not to the point where LS would make any difference. I have yet to be in a fight where I got 'melted' as the healer without it being because the group failed massively on tactics (e.g. pugs pulling 3-4 armors + sorcerer + warg + breaking all CCs and causing chaos in BGT2) and thus should wipe.

  21. #21
    If you trait as a tank, then LS makes sense for obvious reasons.
    If you trait squishy in any other way, LS still makes sense. (hence comparison to Mini/RK)

    I think it should be available all the time. This is a case of over-specialization of the trait tree. If other classes can feign death or avoid death "because they're squishy and might need it to survive" then the same logic can be applied here. There's plenty of other places where there is trade-off.

    Let's look at lore.... everything in Tolkien is about reaching and overcoming a moment of crisis. I think that's why all classes have something to help them survive in a crisis, though a limited skill that has a long cooldown, etc... You know you can' t face the elite red-text giants head on? OK, use your wits.

    At first it seems odd that Mini's even have a skill like this. But the reason is that this isn't WOW it's LOTRO.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by gripply View Post
    If you trait as a tank, then LS makes sense for obvious reasons.
    If you trait squishy in any other way, LS still makes sense. (hence comparison to Mini/RK)
    Sure it "makes sense". The problem is you can't have everything.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    3,203
    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Sure it "makes sense". The problem is you can't have everything.
    So what you are saying is that the way Last Stand was for the what, over 6 years since the games inception was having "everything", and the way it has been in the last 6 weeks is the way it obviously should have always been? Can't see it myself. This was more a choice about having fewer skills available, aka "simplification", rather than about having "everything" far as I can see.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    So what you are saying is that the way Last Stand was for the what, over 6 years since the games inception was having "everything", and the way it has been in the last 6 weeks is the way it obviously should have always been? Can't see it myself. This was more a choice about having fewer skills available, aka "simplification", rather than about having "everything" far as I can see.
    I'm saying exactly what I said: you can't have everything. This has nothing to do with how the class should have "obviouisly been". There has been a lot of firepower and healing power added at the redesign (something you didn't have before, and can't have at the same time -- notice a trend there?). The cost for that is having each role (healer, dps, tank) packaged tighter and only available separately, for the most part. This includes making Last Stand available only as a part of the "survivability" compartment. Makes quite a good deal of sense, whether or not you think it's a good direction to take.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    3,203
    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    I'm saying exactly what I said: you can't have everything. This has nothing to do with how the class should have "obviouisly been". There has been a lot of firepower and healing power added at the redesign (something you didn't have before, and can't have at the same time -- notice a trend there?). The cost for that is having each role (healer, dps, tank) packaged tighter and only available separately, for the most part. This includes making Last Stand available only as a part of the "survivability" compartment. Makes quite a good deal of sense, whether or not you think it's a good direction to take.
    Each to their own. I don't think "Last Stand" is simply part of a PERSONAL survivability package per se, though of course it works for that. I think of it paired with In Harms Way, more as part of a set of emergency tools to help rescue a fellowship that is going down. As such, I don't see it as something that inherently belongs to the yellow line. Historically, capts could use IHW/LS as a cool way to rescue the fellowship. That was useful whether healing, tanking, or DPSing. Don't see it as a necessary change. Glad they didn't go whole hog and put our only remaining rez in the healing line, which would have been as far as I can see just as logical and perhaps also you would defend? They could likewise have put Rallying Cry just in the healing line under the same "you can't have everything" rubric, that would have made lots of sense, it is the healing line after all, why should a great group heal be available to a tank who isn't a warden? Archer herald could have just been in the DPS line. etc.
    Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Jan 06 2014 at 06:16 PM.

 

 
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload