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  1. #1

    [Raids] Why No Raids?

    Now I wanna start this off by saying that lotro really lacks a lvl 100 raid.

    I do not know what turbine is thinking when they do not make a raid for more than 1 year, soon to be 2 years. My kinship was broken, and many more have. Many players have lost their reason to play, and so have I.
    Why you may ask is it important to have raids?

    For one, it gives an actual reason to get good gear. Without raids and only BB, there is no reason to max your crit, get propper defensive items while preserving damage. There is no reason to push you dps. Because why would you? Everything, BB, scaled instances, daylies, TC, Roving treats, are hillariously easy, and do not require you to min max, or anything of the sort. You do not need good gear to do any of them. In fact you can do all of them newly dinged with #### gear. Obveiously you will get to do them faster, but that still leaves no real insensetive to get the best gear and min max your char, or practice your dps.
    That is properly the most important reason. (You could argue Ettens is a reason, but I would deny that. Ettens is dead and broken, and it is the fewest of people who still enjoys that.)

    Secondly, there is no need for kinships. Why would you join a kinship? To have fun and have someone to chat with, occasionally doing some instance or similiar things. But there is no NEED for it. You do not need it. You can pug pretty much all the content there is without problem.

    Third, there is no fun endgame content. I really miss raiding, it was the best. It was the peak of all your leveling, all your dungeon farming, all your virtue and trait farming, min maxing your LI, and then enter a raid with 12 other people, who have done the same. Prepared for this. Prepared food, hope tokens, dmg and def scrolls, reading tacts and made sure they had enough damage and defense for the encounter. It all came to this moment at the boss. Man raiding was fun, and the screaming over vent/teamspeak when you got it right and downed a boss. Or down Tier 2, and continued to T2C. Damn I miss that. That was the best about this game, the peak of the mountain that is the game.

    Turbine have lost a lot of subscribers that have played hardcore for all these years. And I know that, because I know a lot people who left - and havent been seen since there was still raids in this game. It killed my kinship, all of the old people are gone.
    If Turbine wonders why there are many less subscribers, then this is the reason.

    I would also like to bring in an example. Back when MMOs where a whole lot different and worse, a game called World of Warcraft came out. You might be familiar with this, but one of the reason it was so acclaimed and succesful, was that they actually had endgame. They had raids. Besides a startling world and dazzling gameplay, this was the one of the reason of success. And to this day, it remains one of the most important parts of the game. When people talk wow, they talk raid, when they talk patches, they talk new raid, raid changes, raid gear, raid, raid, raid.

    So now I ask you:

    Why is there no raids? Why has turbine decided that we do not need raids?

    What is good about raids? Both when raiding and what it does to the game outside the actual raids?

    Is there anything bad about raiding?

    Do you know people who left? Why did they leave?


    Please I beg you, give us a raid. many say that the Road to Erebor wasn't amazing, but compared to nothing it is actually amazing.

    I hope turbine realizes this soon enough.

    Sincerely,
    Frathir

  2. #2
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    Djheydt and a couple others will let you know shortly.
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  3. #3
    Heydters gonna heydt.

    Potatoes gonna potate...

  4. #4
    <troll suit slipped on quietly>

    Raids? They don't make raids anymore? Who knew?

    <gets chair out to watch>
    Inter faex et urina nascitur sumus

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Frathir3 View Post
    Now I wanna start this off by saying that lotro really lacks a lvl 100 raid.
    Doesn't have a level 100 raids? Isn't Flight of the Lonely Mountain? a scalable 12 person raid. There is one in Helegrod right? If your complaint is that Turbine hasn't created a new raid in a while. That is valid. Turbine has not been doing much at all in the classic instance area. As far a why. I will take a stab at no raids in a long time. My personal opinion.

    When you listen to Turbine employees talking about raids. Two points stick out. One is that they are the most difficult and costly content that Lotro does. Not surprising because a raid involves at least 12 players. The other point being not many people do raids.

    What is the issue?

    You take a game like Lotro that does not have a lot of paying customers. That results in the total annual revenue being small. Development budgets for a product like Lotro that has been live for some time are a percentage of annual revenue. I have no idea what the percentage for Turbine. In my own work as software developer 10-20% is the development cut. 20% being on the extreme high end.

    It is a money issue.

    You have a content element that is extremely expensive to create and get working. After all you need one tester for every character that going to be in the raid instance. You need at least 12 testers. Each hour of instance testing is 12 staff hours. The testing effort adds up real quick. It is pretty clear that designing a raid instance is time consuming and difficult for the developers.

    One of the money issues is that Turbine no longer has many instance designers or testers. The staff been "right sized" several to bring costs in line with the declining revenues.

    Another issue is that since the percentage of raiders in the population is small. You take a small percentage out of a player base that isn't very big. You end up with a small number of customers. You have a costly content element that is being used by a small number of people. It does not make economic sense for Turbine to create raids.

    Worst part of this not many raiders. Since Turbine isn't providing raids. The number of raiders playing Lotro starts going down from its already dismal total numbers. Which makes the business decision to not make a raid more valid. It is a self fulfilling decision.

    A lot of companies end up making this kind of decision. They decide that part of customer base wants support for a feature that is too costly given the total number of wanters. The company drops support for the feature. Many of the wanters give up and buy from somewhere else. Once the majority of wanters leave then there is little to no possibility of restarting.

    Generally this decision is made because revenue from this product is declining. The company can't afford to support the smaller customer groups. Instead they have to focus their limited resources on the most popular features. You often hear the term "reorganizing a company to focus on core activities as they shed weaker products, features and services".

    I've been a part as a developer on declining products before as development support for features and the total development declines. At some point, the company will stop all support for the product. The remaining developers will be reassigned internally or put on the curb because they are not an employee any more.

    It is always sad watching this process pay out as a customer or as a worker bee.

    I forgot one point. Turbine decided they needed a group feature that they could charge for when doing Helms Deep. Instead of classic instances, they wanted a new kind of instance. Any instances where the instance is fixed at level cap. You character scales to level cap. This feature would make Helms Deep appeal to players who had character well under the level cap. It is a refried beans in neat packing with some additional seasonings on the older Skirmish instance tech. Plus the - You got to buy Helms Deep to do the Helms Deep Epic Line. No freebies.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  6. #6
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    My heart tells me that Turbine should stop Landscape development for a few years to build more in their absence type clusters,

    But my brain tells me landscape, festivals, and cosmetics are the key to lotro's revenue.

    Osgilliath PvMP map, if it happens, is purely a subscriber play to keep numbers up that have been becoming dis-satisfactory.
    LvL 100s: Beorning, Burglar, Captain, Champ, Guardian, Hunter, Lore-Master, Minstrel, Rune-Keeper
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    All my forum posts are my opinions and may not even be that. Also On Twitter: @leixicon

  7. #7
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    There is no point in making complex raids when they can't even get basic game balancing right. That's like building a fancy sportscar around a broken engine: very expensive and totally useless.
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
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  8. #8
    @ Yula I would respectfully disagree that raids are the most expensive content they could produce. Revamps, I wonder how much that cost em and is still costing......


    EDIT but you are correct, it would be worse than foolish at this late date to try re-introduce them considering current funding/capability. It's not like they have a snowballs chance of fixing balance(a pre-requisite befor you start thinking raids) let alone something ambitious like raids. Besides it's not like the raiders would come back regardless they were told they weren't wanted so the took their $ elsewhere. Better to concentrate on more walking trees or something else low hanging and achievable.
    Last edited by Bendin; Apr 02 2015 at 01:57 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    Doesn't have a level 100 raids? Isn't Flight of the Lonely Mountain? a scalable 12 person raid. There is one in Helegrod right? If your complaint is that Turbine hasn't created a new raid in a while. That is valid. Turbine has not been doing much at all in the classic instance area. As far a why. I will take a stab at no raids in a long time. My personal opinion.
    We still have level 100 scaled raids but the reason nobody ever runs them is because the best gear comes from watching NPCs fight for 15 minutes in Big Battles. I do agree with Grimdi though- I would rather have them work on fixing what is already out.
    The reason Lotro doesnt have the amount of paying customers it once did is because every single time they release new content, is it severely lacking and ofc. drives more people away from the game. People who would still be playing are driven away because the same thing happens every year. Its like the Call of Duty of MMOs.
    Fellowship Hadacar: I now have a mental image of a little pea with a NE Patriot's logo painted on it.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Patriotp3a View Post
    We still have level 100 scaled raids but the reason nobody ever runs them is because the best gear comes from watching NPCs fight for 15 minutes in Big Battles.
    Yes, and if they don't change the actual broken loot tables (T2/T2C raids & instances (or T3 skirmishes/skraids) should give the best gear, not the useless & ridiculous same gear as in T1 3-mans), any new raid or instance will be a failure.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frathir3 View Post
    Why is there no raids? Why has turbine decided that we do not need raids?

    What is good about raids? Both when raiding and what it does to the game outside the actual raids?

    Is there anything bad about raiding?
    I'm sure Turbine would be delighted to make more raids, if only to stop threads like this. But they don't have the resources anymore. They COULD make one, at the expense of doing anything else. But if they released a new zone that was just one big raid, with no landscape stuff at all, there would be major complaints from those who don't enjoy raids. Which is a larger segment of their population than those that do, regardless of what exact number you want to attach to it. So they don't do that.

    It also allows them to address the complaints about elitist raiders by handing out the best gear in the game to anyone with a pulse and calling it endgame. I'm sure some people are happy about that, though personally I don't know what anyone really needs uber-gear for without raids. I think there's an opportunity to add some sort of difficult solo challenges so that people have something to strive toward, but so far that hasn't happened.

  12. #12
    Sure u may have done the scaled instances before and I would love new raids but in order to do the scaled lvl 100 raids at t2c u need gear and yea it is easy to get it but it still can keep you busy for a few weeks after that it sucks. They do need to make new raids or something to keep people active and the pvp here is good but only good on a few servers its not as good as the old days where the raids were on lvl I do hope they do come up with something to get old players back. The people that are still playing this game love the Lord of the Rings even if its not that good anymore I just want the lotro team to get people to love the game again with something.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by devdor View Post
    Sure u may have done the scaled instances before and I would love new raids but in order to do the scaled lvl 100 raids at t2c u need gear and yea it is easy to get it but it still can keep you busy for a few weeks after that it sucks. They do need to make new raids or something to keep people active and the pvp here is good but only good on a few servers its not as good as the old days where the raids were on lvl I do hope they do come up with something to get old players back. The people that are still playing this game love the Lord of the Rings even if its not that good anymore I just want the lotro team to get people to love the game again with something.
    Mashallah Brother

  14. #14
    I like this thread and it really reminds when when I returned back to game after a two year absence and everyone was running OD Tier1 to get level 100 FA symbols. It was great, it was on our kinship calendar, and many kinships were working together in an alliance to complete this raid. It was great fun and it was assumed we would be doing this every Friday and Saturday night. Then they removed the symbols from Tier 1 because "it was working" and we were having too much fun grouping in 12 man raids. Now nothing, its all about BBs and the only one I enjoy is Pelagir. The rest is watching the other soldiers fighting and really it's an afk fight.

    So my take is that BBs are not going away and raids are not for getting the best gear-the game has been too saturated with essence dependent players that do not even buy what I considered the best teal gear, it's all about essence gear nowadays. Good post though.
    .
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    Doesn't have a level 100 raids? Isn't Flight of the Lonely Mountain? a scalable 12 person raid. There is one in Helegrod right? If your complaint is that Turbine hasn't created a new raid in a while. That is valid. Turbine has not been doing much at all in the classic instance area. As far a why. I will take a stab at no raids in a long time. My personal opinion.

    When you listen to Turbine employees talking about raids. Two points stick out. One is that they are the most difficult and costly content that Lotro does. Not surprising because a raid involves at least 12 players. The other point being not many people do raids.

    What is the issue?

    You take a game like Lotro that does not have a lot of paying customers. That results in the total annual revenue being small. Development budgets for a product like Lotro that has been live for some time are a percentage of annual revenue. I have no idea what the percentage for Turbine. In my own work as software developer 10-20% is the development cut. 20% being on the extreme high end.

    It is a money issue.

    You have a content element that is extremely expensive to create and get working. After all you need one tester for every character that going to be in the raid instance. You need at least 12 testers. Each hour of instance testing is 12 staff hours. The testing effort adds up real quick. It is pretty clear that designing a raid instance is time consuming and difficult for the developers.

    One of the money issues is that Turbine no longer has many instance designers or testers. The staff been "right sized" several to bring costs in line with the declining revenues.

    Another issue is that since the percentage of raiders in the population is small. You take a small percentage out of a player base that isn't very big. You end up with a small number of customers. You have a costly content element that is being used by a small number of people. It does not make economic sense for Turbine to create raids.

    Worst part of this not many raiders. Since Turbine isn't providing raids. The number of raiders playing Lotro starts going down from its already dismal total numbers. Which makes the business decision to not make a raid more valid. It is a self fulfilling decision.

    A lot of companies end up making this kind of decision. They decide that part of customer base wants support for a feature that is too costly given the total number of wanters. The company drops support for the feature. Many of the wanters give up and buy from somewhere else. Once the majority of wanters leave then there is little to no possibility of restarting.

    Generally this decision is made because revenue from this product is declining. The company can't afford to support the smaller customer groups. Instead they have to focus their limited resources on the most popular features. You often hear the term "reorganizing a company to focus on core activities as they shed weaker products, features and services".

    I've been a part as a developer on declining products before as development support for features and the total development declines. At some point, the company will stop all support for the product. The remaining developers will be reassigned internally or put on the curb because they are not an employee any more.

    It is always sad watching this process pay out as a customer or as a worker bee.

    I forgot one point. Turbine decided they needed a group feature that they could charge for when doing Helms Deep. Instead of classic instances, they wanted a new kind of instance. Any instances where the instance is fixed at level cap. You character scales to level cap. This feature would make Helms Deep appeal to players who had character well under the level cap. It is a refried beans in neat packing with some additional seasonings on the older Skirmish instance tech. Plus the - You got to buy Helms Deep to do the Helms Deep Epic Line. No freebies.
    That is a very good, and well written, reason Thank you, you really lightened me up, and now I actually know a good reason for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by darthhager View Post
    I like this thread and it really reminds when when I returned back to game after a two year absence and everyone was running OD Tier1 to get level 100 FA symbols. It was great, it was on our kinship calendar, and many kinships were working together in an alliance to complete this raid. It was great fun and it was assumed we would be doing this every Friday and Saturday night. Then they removed the symbols from Tier 1 because "it was working" and we were having too much fun grouping in 12 man raids. Now nothing, its all about BBs and the only one I enjoy is Pelagir. The rest is watching the other soldiers fighting and really it's an afk fight.

    So my take is that BBs are not going away and raids are not for getting the best gear-the game has been too saturated with essence dependent players that do not even buy what I considered the best teal gear, it's all about essence gear nowadays. Good post though.
    I agree, and thank you

  16. #16
    if its too expensive to invent new raids/instances why not scale up old ones?
    i personally loved tower of orthanc raids -> quite difficult even on t1 but with a good leader you can compensate 2-3 newbies

    if this is still to expensive just put awesome loot in the old raids the main reason to avoid raids atm is the poor loot ...why should i spend effort and time into a raid if the reward is vendor trash or just the same stuff i get on 3-6mans?
    example some ofthe best stuff drops in the easiest instance-> spammy (agility bracelet and will cloak)

    you dont want to invent new raids ...fine but pls give me a reason to run the old ones (just a hint put some extra morale on offhand weapons/shields and cloaks pvper`s and raiding ppl love that)

  17. #17
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    I thought lvl 75 ToO was perfectly scaled for lvl 100 already?

    I'd have saved all the money spent on BBs, the HD class imbalancing, Imbuement (another class imbalancing) and Server Transfers (nice intent but flawed) and then fixed the broken game and then made a raid cluster instead.
    The landscape guys do a great job, same with the quest arcs. The rest assigned to whatever the current producer came up with in the job interview.

  18. #18
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    The real reason there is no level 100 raid is what my brother explained to me-"this point in the story, there is a massive battle, thousands versus hundreds. Explain to me how you can make a fight this massive into a raid or raid cluster" Makes legitimate sense to me.
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  19. #19

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Macdui View Post
    I thought lvl 75 ToO was perfectly scaled for lvl 100 already?

    I'd have saved all the money spent on BBs, the HD class imbalancing, Imbuement (another class imbalancing) and Server Transfers (nice intent but flawed) and then fixed the broken game and then made a raid cluster instead.
    The landscape guys do a great job, same with the quest arcs. The rest assigned to whatever the current producer came up with in the job interview.
    Games like lotro have a huge lead time on major features -- features like the imbued items take quite a few months to go from initial design, through the engineering work, then the design work, then the testing phase, before they finally hit live. So... Given that the current lead producer has only been on the job for a couple of months, it isn't really fair to blame her for any of the features you've mentioned, as those were likely all started when she was still on DDO. So, blame most of those features on the former producer, and later this year, when update 17 rolls out, then you can start blaming everything on the current producer

  20. #20
    To be fair, I don't think there will be any new raids with the new imbument LI system. Mainly because this means there won't be a need for us to remake our LI - means we don't need anymore FAs (assuming level cap increases). This essentially takes out a large loot reward from what used to drop only in raids (granted the new BB plat reward, but still). While there are some of us out there that would do the raids purely for the challenge, not everyone shares that view.

    So by removing FAs from future potential raid loot, I think it further suggests there won't be any new 'traditional' raids
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  21. #21
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    agree with the rest of your post but i think this is crucial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    <edited>

    I forgot one point. Turbine decided they needed a group feature that they could charge for when doing Helms Deep. Instead of classic instances, they wanted a new kind of instance. Any instances where the instance is fixed at level cap. You character scales to level cap. This feature would make Helms Deep appeal to players who had character well under the level cap. It is a refried beans in neat packing with some additional seasonings on the older Skirmish instance tech. Plus the - You got to buy Helms Deep to do the Helms Deep Epic Line. No freebies.

 

 

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