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  1. #1

    Suggestion: Disable Raids in Moors

    Just an idea with unknown definite ramifications but predictable ones at the least. This is something I've suggested long ago and I'm sure others have as well.

    Why
    Reduce overhealing of raids.
    Reduce focus fire of raids.
    More imagination in group setups.
    Spreads more people throughout the map.
    Reduce endless fights.
    Reduce overall lag.
    Reduce zerging.
    Just more strategy overall in my opinion.

    Why Not
    Still will see zergs as people will cling each other.
    Third party voice communication can still provide focus healing/focus fire.
    Harder for certain classes to get groups.
    Harder for lower ranks to get groups.

    Just an idea, biggest reason why I think it'd be a good idea is for the lag reduction and just a change of pace.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Japan
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    106
    I think it's worth a try.
    [FONT=arial][SIZE=2]Bazain, R14 Rune-keeper / Rones, R12 Lore-master - Yarareru mae ni [COLOR=#ff0000]yare [/COLOR]-[/SIZE][/FONT]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    622
    No thanks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    New York
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    This would have a disproportionate effect on Creeps than it would Freeps, I'd imagine.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sunset Strip
    Posts
    823
    Only if it came with a rank reset and a rollback to the previous renown/infamy gain system (pre RoI)

    (ain't gonna happen.. dream on! )
    ~Nimolas R11 Warden (Retired before RoR) (Snowbourn)

    ~Eralwen R10 hunter

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    4,231
    We went through a period where raiding was heavily discouraged in lotro through point distribution. It sucked. I'm not a big fan of raids, but the alternative is worse. Now if you want to say disable raids and disable open tapping for points, then maybe.

  7. #7
    This game is not balanced for 1v1 so in my opinion..... bad idea!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Grams Rock - Complaining!
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    1,088
    Stop 24 man raids, its ruining the moors.

    Thats it.

    Maybe remove the Assist Target option, this was people actually need to select the enemy and not there leader, as is usually the case.
    Snowbourn - Commander Shakbasher - Lieutenant Glurf

    Warriors of The Great Eye

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MessyR View Post
    Stop 24 man raids, its ruining the moors.

    Thats it.

    Maybe remove the Assist Target option, this was people actually need to select the enemy and not there leader, as is usually the case.
    Well focus fire is the only way to be affective. If they took target assist away Aoe classes becoming even more insane. Focus fire is to important in pvp to be taken away( specifically taking target assist away).

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    France
    Posts
    749
    While I absolutely wouldn't mind if raids were disabled in the Ettenmoors, the root problem is that Turbine made zerging so much more 'rewarding' than it should be. Once upon a time, back in SoA, 24 people zerging one would each get 1/24th of the points as was fair.

    This was artificially boosted with SoA's Book 12 update (out of memory), where each player in a full raid would get I think it was 1/8th of the points. It didn't take long for the daily raid zerging nonsense to become common on most if not all servers. Log on, join/form raid, and repeatedly gank solo's, small groups and ungrouped players for thrice the points: ding ding ding.

    Turbine somehow managed to make it much worse with RoR by rewarding players regardless of their contribution, extending free points to even greater masses of players, as well as introducing bugs preventing solo's and smaller groups to even get the base amount of points for a kill in many cases.

    Turbine did their best to promote zerging, for god knows what reason (their servers or game client can't cope), I don't see them disabling raids anytime soon. Plus at this point, if they wanted to promote decent PvP skirmishing instead of zerging, they would *also* have to backtrack on the stealth/tracking/escape situation (sorry wargs, but invisibility + escape at will + tracking + no getting tracked is plain silly design).
    [size=1]Freeps (Snowbourn): [b]Equanor (R11 MNS)[/b] - Equendil - Orlo - Equadoc - Quaolin - Oshia - Kaolin - Equaric - Equorn
    Creeps (Snowbourn): Veloch (R9 RVR) - Velrow (R10 BA) - Velkro - Oruk - Velrot - Velreth
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  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    5,803
    Back before raid infamy boost, we used to just sit ungrouped and use channel target macroes to get the same effect.


    Even my Signature is trolling!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Apache140 View Post
    Just an idea with unknown definite ramifications but predictable ones at the least. This is something I've suggested long ago and I'm sure others have as well.

    Why
    Reduce overhealing of raids.
    Reduce focus fire of raids.
    More imagination in group setups.
    Spreads more people throughout the map.
    Reduce endless fights.
    Reduce overall lag.
    Reduce zerging.
    Just more strategy overall in my opinion.

    Why Not
    Still will see zergs as people will cling each other.
    Third party voice communication can still provide focus healing/focus fire.
    Harder for certain classes to get groups.
    Harder for lower ranks to get groups.

    Just an idea, biggest reason why I think it'd be a good idea is for the lag reduction and just a change of pace.
    ROTFLMAO.

    Ow wait. My bad. You were serious. The hell No. We cannot get points solo as Freeps will be shreaded up as extra cheap Warg Food.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/08207000000264409/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    lvl 95 Champion / Rank 10 Arkenstone Server / Officer - Order of the Cresent Dragon / Kuznumshi lvl 95 Reaver / Rank 7 Arkenstone Server / Grunt of Tribe of Aracnophobia

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Bama
    Posts
    340
    sounds like a guy on our server has an alternate ego or evil twin. I enjoy it all forms of fighting in the moors. Solo on my noobie warg is fun though not particularly fruitful and raiding/grouping on my WL. I don't know if it's your problem or not but the freeps on our servers is because each one of them think they are better than the other one and would rather not have anything to do with anyone else whos not in their kin or on "their" level. They do like to show up in large numbers versus a few creeps at grams but came equal numbers they will refuse to group up and fight. They just whine about getting zerged outta the moors, talk about how poor players creeps are, say they are ezmoders, and then return when the grams camp call goes out in glff.
    Warisi(Champ).......Rangers of the West
    Philladeas(WL), GrumpyCat(Warg)...Soldiers Of The White Hand
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    1/2 of the WLBrigade

  14. #14
    Turbine did effectively do away with raids in the past, by reducing the renown/infamy gain by so much that it was better to run solo or in small groups.

    It didn't reduce zergs because everyone still clumped together for safety.

    If didn't spread fights all over the map (a long-standing fantasy) because everyone logging on immediately asks "where is the fight?" then goes there.

    What actually happened was that 75% of the population on both sides logged ranged classes and stood all day at Tol south bridge pew-pewing each other.

    The only difference if it was tried now would be the addition of healers on both sides making it effectively impossible to kill anything until numbers became overwhelming on one side or the other, which with 5-minute flipping would happen more and more often.
    [CENTER]Tarmas Elf Champion R13 | Tarmeg Elf Guardian R6 | Tarmil 95 Elf Warden | Tarmun Elf Hunter R6 | Tarmot Elf Minstrel R6 | Tarmyr Elf Loremaster R6
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Equendil View Post
    Plus at this point, if they wanted to promote decent PvP skirmishing instead of zerging, they would *also* have to backtrack on the stealth/tracking/escape situation (sorry wargs, but invisibility + escape at will + tracking + no getting tracked is plain silly design).
    Let's review your list of 4 deadly sins:

    1: Invisiblity.
    Sounds cool, but there are plenty of counters. AOES, store bought trackers, bleeds, traps, and the fact that wargs can not damage while invisible. Compare with Burglars who can stun an opponent without leaving the safety of stealth and they can double HIPS. Also, there is more invisibility available on Freepside than Creepside. Share the fun, hobbit stealth, hunter stealth, warden stealth, burglar stealth and so on. Freep googles much?

    2: Escape At Will.
    Latetly HIPs just means I get to bleed out in private and for 3 years now HIPS also has meant Let's watch the LM pet follow me through the woods. Nearly every class has some escape skills it's just the HIPS skill gets lots of attention because the anti-warg bots don't see Last Stand, TnG, Tar, Slows, Stuns, Roots, Mezzs, etc as escape skills when in fact those skills used as escape skills every single day.

    3. Tracking
    This is an interesting inclusion in your list. Who does tracking impact? If I track a Guardian or a Champion they're just LOL because they're always visible. The 'You feel as you are being followed' is a warning that an attack is forthcoming. Tracking impacts stealthed classes the most - it is primarily a counter stealth skill. To add a counter stealth skill in a rant about stealth is odd.

    4: Wargs Cannot Be Tracked
    This flat out isn't true as the store will sell any Freep class that ability. I understand that isn't satisfactory as do the developers as they've admitted the ability of Hunters to track wargs should have been included in the update and it is scheduled for future update.

    In short your list of the 4 deadly Warg skills is nonsense as the skills are either better represented by the Freepside classes, have effective counters, or are recognized as a bug to be fixed.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuddlepaws View Post
    4: Wargs Cannot Be Tracked
    This flat out isn't true as the store will sell any Freep class that ability. I understand that isn't satisfactory as do the developers as they've admitted the ability of Hunters to track wargs should have been included in the update and it is scheduled for future update.
    From both a maintime Hunter and Stalker player i TRUELY hope they do NOT allow stealth tracking with out heavy to moderate investment in a particular traitline, yellow mainly.
    A redline hunter able to track stealthed targets is WAY over the top with their massive burst dps, self stealth (even if it's non-moving stealth), and one of the best escape skills in the game: Desperate Flight. And dont even get me started on blue hunters. If you think hinder-spam was rage worthy, try QS spam with a skilled stance dancing blue hunter (with Traps!).

    And if you do give it to them please have a draw back for it, say reduced range. This is FAIR. If i can also add a bit of logic as to why think of it like you focus more on your Immediate surroundings, making you more aware of more subtle hints at a hiding enemy at the expense of noticing more distant threats, like focusing on the ground or shrubbery very close rather than darting your eyes around the horizon. That would make the ability, when range is shortened to track for stealthy targets, more immersive.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Exion_Blade View Post
    And if you do give it to them please have a draw back for it, say reduced range. This is FAIR. If i can also add a bit of logic as to why think of it like you focus more on your Immediate surroundings, making you more aware of more subtle hints at a hiding enemy at the expense of noticing more distant threats, like focusing on the ground or shrubbery very close rather than darting your eyes around the horizon. That would make the ability, when range is shortened to track for stealthy targets, more immersive.
    The game is by Freeps for Freeps.
    My guess is the new hunter tracking will be on a 10s cool down and work like a Burlgar's Share The Fun.
    Hunters will be able to share tracking skill with everyone in the raid.

    ^ Normally I'd consider that to be a bit cynical, but these are the guys that gave Epic Conclusion a bleed.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    France
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    749
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuddlepaws View Post
    Let's review your list of 4 deadly sins:

    1: Invisiblity.
    Sounds cool, but there are plenty of counters. AOES, store bought trackers, bleeds, traps, and the fact that wargs can not damage while invisible. Compare with Burglars who can stun an opponent without leaving the safety of stealth and they can double HIPS. Also, there is more invisibility available on Freepside than Creepside. Share the fun, hobbit stealth, hunter stealth, warden stealth, burglar stealth and so on. Freep googles much?

    2: Escape At Will.
    Latetly HIPs just means I get to bleed out in private and for 3 years now HIPS also has meant Let's watch the LM pet follow me through the woods. Nearly every class has some escape skills it's just the HIPS skill gets lots of attention because the anti-warg bots don't see Last Stand, TnG, Tar, Slows, Stuns, Roots, Mezzs, etc as escape skills when in fact those skills used as escape skills every single day.

    3. Tracking
    This is an interesting inclusion in your list. Who does tracking impact? If I track a Guardian or a Champion they're just LOL because they're always visible. The 'You feel as you are being followed' is a warning that an attack is forthcoming. Tracking impacts stealthed classes the most - it is primarily a counter stealth skill. To add a counter stealth skill in a rant about stealth is odd.

    4: Wargs Cannot Be Tracked
    This flat out isn't true as the store will sell any Freep class that ability. I understand that isn't satisfactory as do the developers as they've admitted the ability of Hunters to track wargs should have been included in the update and it is scheduled for future update.

    In short your list of the 4 deadly Warg skills is nonsense as the skills are either better represented by the Freepside classes, have effective counters, or are recognized as a bug to be fixed.
    First of all, I'm not fond either of burgs combining invisibility and escape, that's a problem in itself, which brings me to the second point, it's not the existence of these things individually that constitute a problem, it's the combination of them on a single class.

    Tracking is primarily a counter stealth skill, that much is true, which is why it should have been given to a class that needs a counter to stealth, ie not a primary stealth class.

    Risk and reward needs to be balanced, and right now, if it wasn't for the zergy state of the moors, wargs (cautious ones anyway...) would be all rewards and very little risk. They can pick their fight, they can escape quite easily and often so, they can track stealth classes of the opposing faction, yet hardly ever get tracked themselves. Perfect gank class. Where ganking isn't in check, people naturally stick together and you end up with more zerging, arguably not a positive outcome.

    Now you may think it's ok because wargs are a bit squishy, so there's actually some risk involved, and various freep classes are a pain in the bottom and all that, but make no mistake, Turbine cannot reasonably make wargs more competitive and retain their abilities to walk unseen, stalk the other side's stealth classes yet avoid detection themselves, and cheat death with ease.

    I don't think any developer had said anything about the hunter trait to be a "bug" when I wrote my post, but anyway, it's a good thing if they address that.

    On your remarks though, I have to take a few things apart:
    - You make it sound as if hobbit/elf stealth or warden stealth or share the fun are equivalent to warg/burg stealth, but they're not. Not remotely close. Low stealth level, slow movement, long cooldown on racial skills, fairly limited duration on warden stealth, they're little more than gimmicks as far as PvP goes. At any given moment in the moors there might be what, between 0 and 1 freep stealthed on average that isn't a burg/hunter ?
    - There are 9 freep classes to chose from vs 6 creep classes, which means if population is balanced and classes equally played, there is going to be more of wargs/weavers than burgs/hunters out there. Think about it.
    - Plenty of counters to stealth ? Those counters are anecdotal at best, nothing comes close to tracking when it comes to you know, tracking.
    - Store trackers: That was a stupid thing to add to the store, something I'd like Turbine to correct too. Let's face it though, you don't get tracked by store trackers remotely as often as you were by hunters.
    - Hips vs last stand, TnG, Tar, CC etc. False equivalence here again. Sure you /might/ escape occasionally by delaying your death using CC/whatever, that does not make those "escape skills" equivalent to skills that simply let you disengage from combat and get out of reach of your opponent(s). Hips/Dips and sprinting are king when it comes to that. They're not fool-proof, not even Desperate Flight was back before it was nerfed, but they're a hell of a lot more reliable than anything else.
    [size=1]Freeps (Snowbourn): [b]Equanor (R11 MNS)[/b] - Equendil - Orlo - Equadoc - Quaolin - Oshia - Kaolin - Equaric - Equorn
    Creeps (Snowbourn): Veloch (R9 RVR) - Velrow (R10 BA) - Velkro - Oruk - Velrot - Velreth
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