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Thread: @Jinjaah

  1. #26
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Hey All,

    Some implementation things came up today which pulled me away from the forums. I will be swinging by later today or first thing tomorrow morning to answer a lot of these questions. You have already posted a bunch of topics I wanted to touch with you so keep it up.

    -Jinjaah

  2. #27
    Another thing people haven't mentioned; the Shocking Touch animation.

    It's far too long of a skill delay to warrant the skill useful in pvp in the majority of encounters.
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  3. #28
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    Good points made by everyone. I'll add a few other items.

    Our Fates Entwined. 5K is a low value for the rune, we really need the induction immunity we used to have.

    Ground Targeted. I've grown to really dislike these skills. 'you can't put that there', 'you can't put it here either', 'nope - still can't put it over there'. We waste a lot of time looking for a place that we CAN place the item....and sometimes the attunement drops while trying to place the item and we have to build that up again to try and find another place to drop the item.

    Bombastic - I 2nd what everyone has said. The old 'That Which Does Not Kill Us' was much better.

    Rallying Verse is a waste of 5 skill points to buff the OOC Rez - does anyone put any points there?

    DNFTD - Duration should last until out of combat or the CD should be reduced.

    Most of our comments are for end-game players, but don't forget about lower-level players. I think - at least for healing - there is a big skill deficit between levels 20 ~ Mid-50'ish. How can an RK heal the GB instances when level 20's? No RW or Essay...nothing but spam MV, WoH and PtH. Those levels are really 'No Heal Land' for the RK. Rousing words needs to be moved so lower level players have it at the levels they start to need that skill.

    Embrace the Brown! The RK - maybe more than any other class - was envisioned as a Brown class. We were meant to be able to to more than one thing and the Attunement was the gate to keep us from doing Everything at once. I feel for newer RK trying to complete a Class Deed for a point when the only skill they can use is DNFTD (10 Min CD).

    For the Future. I would be fine with no new skills added to levels 95+ if we could get added back (at lower levels where they are needed) skills like "Do Not Fall to 'X' ", Distracting Winds, "Fall to 'affinity' ", Wondrous Foreshadowing.

    Lastly, A DPS traited RK is NOT an effective backup/emergency healer. Rousing Words should be a Skill that can be selected out-of-spec and be no lower than the 3rd tier on the BoP line.
    Last edited by JeauxLOTR; Jan 10 2014 at 05:08 PM.
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  4. #29
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raven-EU View Post
    I find Lightning to be in a very nice spot. I think all my gripes have been talked about somewhere:

    * Concession and Rebuttal is too intrusive in the skill set. It tries to do too much.
    * Ceaseless Argument needs a reason to exist beyond being skill used at low levels.
    * Static Surge cone is too narrow and the range is too short.
    * There's *no* power management in lightning. 2% power back on every crit means I have infinite power (maybe Ceaseless Argument could be used here somehow).

    Fire is in a very good spot. The cooldown on Fiery Ridicule being the only gripe here and maybe some added mobility.

    Healing is where I'd put the most effort into fixing.

    * There are too many short duration HoTs. Healing a single tank works fine. Healing a tank and someone else who's taking damage gets messy really quickly.
    * Overall I cannot see any consistency in the healing skills. It's all short duration, short cooldown, hit lots of buttons.
    * There's no "heal" without a cooldown. If I need to heal two people I have to use two different skills OR wait for the skill to come off cooldown.
    1. Agreed on Concession and Rebuttal. It use to do more if you remember in the beta. The intention was to give it some extra flair in key moments but I agree the way it is constructed right now sort of blocks your rotation, not allowing you to save for a key moment.

    2. 100% agree on ceaseless argument. We had many players post some great ideas in the beta for it and I still have them all. I will be looking into this.

    3. Yeah we have gone back and forth internally about the range and cone of Static Surge. I will say that if we do end up changing it by increasing its range, the damage will most likely be tweaked.

    4. Yeah Power on lightning and fire are messed up right now. Not happy with this, going to see what I can do. The crit giving power was nice before we changed the proc bonuses from ratings to percents.

    For healing, I am going to take a look at the HoTs. The intention was to make healing a little more involved with keeping you hots rolling on targets, but it seems like we went a little overboard.
    The without a cooldown thing is certainly true as well. I think the real issue here is prelude to hope needs some love. It needs more of a purpose, even when untraited.

    -Jinjaah

  5. #30
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blastoyz View Post
    Thanks Jinjaah.

    I think the big battles jewelry set bonuses (the attunement based ones) are very weak, it's hardly a benefit at all in my opinion. The other one is fine.
    -A chance to remove an induction would be beneficial to both healing and fire. Or if that's OP maybe 50% induction.
    -standard increased crit chance for a duration
    -fire based, add a couple extra dot ticks
    -reduce particular mitigation/attack duration for a set time
    -for lightning maybe a particular CD reset
    -next attack 100% crit (obviously a lot of these stronger ones would have a passive CD)
    Just some quick basic ideas. But please give me something to run BB on my RK for :3

    Also i find personally the distracting flame legacy very weak, it looks like it was put in to make DF more appealing but maxed at 9% was quite mundane to me.

    Sorry for messy post, on my phone haha
    1. I will sit down with itemization and talk to them about it. We've talked about it in the past, but from this forum its pretty easy to see what you guys like and don't like. Doesn't mean you will have your cake and eat it too, but I think we can meet in the middle.

    2. With legacies, I think in general we could spruce them up a bit. The one you mentioned and others often feel as though they fall flat across all classes.

    -Jinjaah

  6. #31
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosttaker View Post
    Hi Jinjaah,

    CA legacy is currently decreasing damage not increasing it.
    Two set bonuses from the HD jewelry can we please get something that will help us in combat or healing other than a tick of attunement. Maybe a proc on outgoing healing, reduced cast time on EptA, reduced cooldowns, or straight damage increase for X number of seconds? AoE bonus on Static Surge, EC heals for X amount of dmg done? Consumers do not consume attunement for X number of seconds? (ideas, I know the EC one is way OP, could be some % of the hit done as a HoT)

    CnR- I love the skill, love it, love it. Instead of it effecting SB though to make it free, that buff is active quite a bit, could we get a short duration in combat sprint from it instead when CnR is active? I'm not sure why it was taken out but we have no short duration in combat sprint. Please leave the rest alone!

    Would love to see SH castable on the move. Almost every time I use this skill I die. If you don't want this skill to be able to be cast while moving then please some sort of sprint then so there is some give and take, right now it's only give when we use this skill. Either that or shorten the animation, or something. This is a panic button skill now whether you are heal and kite, or using it to save yourself and get that bubble, the delay in combat flow is a killer, literally.

    Scribe would love to see that able to be used while moving too, we've been dotted, we're trying to get out of blight, los, or whatever and have to remain still to purge. Maybe a sprint cares for all.

    Please scale the heal from SB

    I liked the version of WoL without the cooldown much better, felt more fluid, would sacrifice the 3 attunement build portion of it (maybe except when CnR is active) to get no cooldown on this. Between the cooldown on that skill, I know, one second, and cooldown on FR, again one second but with induction I am going to break my SS key!

    There is a lot of "skill hang" or skill lag, especially when going to cast EC but overall there is a lot of delay, I'll sometimes wait 2 or 3 seconds for EC to go off. Not sure if that is server related or something with the class but it's clunky.

    On Static surge, love the skill, agree with Raven that the cone is too small, maybe frontal 90 degrees or something, seems more like frontal 30 degress

    There's more, will take some time later.

    I know there is QQ regarding the class and survivability. From a damage dealing standpoint I think we are in a really good place. Does make me sad to see minnies grabbing, and holding aggro over us but I think that is more related to them than us. I think one or two of the mobility changes listed above and/or adding some kind of speed buff (short duration) might help with this.
    Jewelry I mentioned in the post just before this one.

    My problem with WoL with no cooldown was that spammy feeling to it. At least now with 1s you still have it a lot if you need it, but you don't just use that.

    Yeah SH needs some work on its animation. Its really long.

    The lag you mention with EC I have seen on others classes, will look into it.

    The mobility notes mentioned are good suggestions.

    -Jinjaah

  7. #32
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeetskeet_yo View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to speak with us about the rune-keeper. I know you have a lot on your plate with hunters, champions, and PvMP and I know a lot of issues have already been addressed in those forums so hopefully we don't have to have them repeated here as well.

    I'd like to be the first to acknowledge that we know and understand that:
    • 1.) Game difficulty will be getting tweaked/raised in the nearish future

    • 2.) PvMP damage types will be getting addressed


    Second I'd like to make sure that these bugs are made known.
    • 1.) Ceaseless argument legacy currently is adding a negative % to damage instead of positive.

    • 2.) Sustaining bolt is not providing a larger heal when consuming a larger amount of attunement, despite the description saying that it should.


    Finally I would like to add the things I think need tweaking for each line.

    Yellow (lightning):
    • 1.) I totally agree with Raven-EU, ceaseless argument is very unimpressive compared to writ of lightning and has been taken out of rotation for the most part because it is no longer needed to build attunement and provides no incentive to using. I personally don't think we even need the skill at all and would prefer something else to take its place, rather to see it buffed and scribes spark falling victim to non-use.


    • 2.) Fulgurite runestone - since yellow line is our mobility dps line, it would be nice if we didn't have to stop moving in order to place the stone (at the feet or ground targeted.) In addition, the duration that the stone persists on the ground is about equal to the cooldown of the skill which is too short in my opinion. It would be nice to place it on the ground and then not have to worry about replacing it for a good 30s. I would also like to see the stun associated with the stone maybe striking more often or giving the player control over when it stuns.


    • 3.) Static surge I agree with Raven-EU...larger cone and range please. Light armor having to get in frontal melee range to use a skill doesn't make sense.


    • 4.) Concession and Rebuttal: The tooltip does not mention the -%dmg reduction...or how it tiers up and its still confusing as to the functionality behind this skill. While the animation for the skill is nice, it also is too long. Finally, I would like to see the skill enhancements that C&R provides, tweaked. Currently it makes writ of lightning apply the maximum buff which we do anyway to build attunement thus making this very underwhelming, while also taking away our attunement builder because it uses one of C&R charges.



    Red (fire):

    1.) I think of this line like the older hunter builds. You are induction based, with low mobility, low survivability (we're not even Med. armor), but high dps. However, like the hunters, I would like to see some changes because this type of dpsing leads to very stagnant gameplay.
    • a.) Access to +pulse count for fire based skills should be more available through set bonuses as this allowed our DoTs to persist on targets for longer, allowing the Runekeeper to change targets, move positions, etc. while keeping up as a sustained dps class.

    • b.) We currently have a legacy that reduces the power cost of smoldering wrath. I was confused by this legacy as smoldering wrath is a channel skill and only requires a small amount of power to use. I would like to see this legacy changed to something more meaningful.

    2.) Smoldering wrath is our big hitting single target skill for this line and we all try to get to max attunement before using it to get the most dps out of it. In comparison to hunters, smoldering wrath is to RK's as bloodarrow or penetrating shot is to hunters. However, SW being a channel based skill makes this frustrating because often targets run out of the range or the channel can be interrupted, thus dropping our dps drastically.

    Sidebar: Itemization: The Big Battle jewelry provided very underwhelming bonuses compared to other classes, I would love to see more rewarding bonuses hopefully in the future. In addition the PvMP armor set bonuses were also underwhelming...Lightning - Longer window to use sustaining bolt without attunement consumption....Fire - induction setback immunity if you crit on firery ridicule....Healing - Mending verse applies the initial heal to both target and caster. My qualms about these are that sustaining bolt should inherently have a longer window, fire line is more mastery based and not crit (which is more lightning)...so a crit on firery ridicule is ...and mending verse is no longer used in the same manner as before HD so the bonus shouldn't have stayed the same either.

    Trait trees: Why is the critical defense passive bonus within the lightning line? Of all the lines this makes the least sense because we have the most mobility. I mean the fire line needs the crit defense because you're a light armor sitting in one spot inducting - if you get hit you need some crit defense to save you. If you're blue line and healing you need crit defense because you will agro mobs or creeps ire with your heals and thus need crit defense.

    All 3 lines need the crit defense line and its silly that if I trait any line (other than yellow), I have to spend twice the trait points to get it.

    Chilling rhetoric: This skill applies a slow to a target just like before HD, but with the loss of the traited version (the slow persists after the target is hit). In its current form the skill is next to useless. It provides only +1 battle attunement and as soon as the target is hit or a DoT ticks, the slow disappears. No calming verse run speed to close the gap so .

    Legendary Item Legacies:
    • 1.) Our legacies are in dire shape. First off I feel like there are too few legacies that provide meaningful rewards. Often time I feel like the skills I wanted enhanced by an LI legacy don't exist or the legacy is too weak (ex. smoldering wrath power cost).

    • 2.) Currently we're the only class that can add finesse to our LI through a legacy scroll. However, since there is so much finesse provided through itemization, it makes this legacy an expensive one to have and very underwhelming.


    Blue Line (healing): To be continued or covered by someone else.
    Well said and full of great suggestions. Adding these to my notes to ponder over but I like alot in here.

    -Jinjaah

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    1. Agreed on Concession and Rebuttal. It use to do more if you remember in the beta. The intention was to give it some extra flair in key moments but I agree the way it is constructed right now sort of blocks your rotation, not allowing you to save for a key moment.


    -Jinjaah
    In a perfect Dev world, how do you envision this skill being used? What situation(s) did/do you think the skill was suited for when you created it? Either when you came up with the idea or in it's current form? (as long as you don't thinkt he current form is useless)

    I love it and would like to see it tweaked rather than overhauled from its current form. Definite difference in how I felt about while leveling versus being leveled and actually getting to use it. We also have no new endgame content that makes it necessary for us to use this skill in pve land unless we create those situations ourselves. It's truly useful, and needed place right now is the moors which I know is a small % of the RK population.


    Attended by Coldaen

  9. #34
    A couple of comments on healing and dpsing. As someone who used to do nothing but heal on RK, I've found that over time I've gotten used to most of the changes, but there are a couple comments I have.

    1. The replacement for Our Fates Entwined - I'm either not understanding how I'm supposed to use it. It seems to just absorb 5k damage and then die. I can heal it, but usually its dead before my induction is off - and then it has a really long cool down. Am I using it wrong?

    2. I really miss having the ability to provide buffs. There's nothing there now, after so much work was done to fix that between 75 and 85. I used to have a very potent damage buff that needed constant reapplication, which was great. I could focus the person who needed that extra burst for the content, and it added an extra element to things I had to manage. How didn't that fit in with the new vision for RK?

    3. Besides the healing stone, which I think is good, the other two stones are so weak that I haven't even been traiting them. They do very little damage, a single hit from any of our other skills will outdo all the damage they do over time.

    4. The Will, Fate, and Finesse attributes don't have correct stat values. A single piece of gear gives 217 of our stat, but 7% of our stat points only gives us 75ish more? This should track by level to be 10 item points worth of the stat.

    5. The AOE of lightning, and AOE seems to be the only damage that matters now, is spotty due to the SS% chance. So much of our damage in lit is tied up in that one skill.

    6. How come the itemization bonuses for the HD gold and teal items are as they are? The heal one is great, and right were it should be - 10% HOT, but all the rest - the 10% Chill of winter damage, for our 3 skills on long CDs, and then the 10% to battle or heal attunement - they really are not as potent. Why weren't more potent buffs selected, or even just copying LI attributes (which would have worked just fine - more lit crit mult, and more fire dot?)
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  10. #35
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosttaker View Post
    In a perfect Dev world, how do you envision this skill being used? What situation(s) did/do you think the skill was suited for when you created it? Either when you came up with the idea or in it's current form? (as long as you don't thinkt he current form is useless)

    I love it and would like to see it tweaked rather than overhauled from its current form. Definite difference in how I felt about while leveling versus being leveled and actually getting to use it. We also have no new endgame content that makes it necessary for us to use this skill in pve land unless we create those situations ourselves. It's truly useful, and needed place right now is the moors which I know is a small % of the RK population.
    When it was first created, the name felt more appropriate in that there was a defensive and offensive component built into it. The orbs would either be used offensively to augment some of the attunement cashout skills, or it would reflect a stun when the enemy hit you. The problem was with our current state of stuns, an enemy would hit you, use an orb and take a stun, but then be immune to stuns for the next 8 or 10s. This would cause them to run up and consume another orb but for no effect.

    Then we kind of came to the conclusion that the skill felt like a waste in most situations. At the same time, we felt it did even more than it does now and was kind of confusing as to what situations you saved it for. Looking forward, I think we could take a little away from it while keeping it mostly intact to make it less obtrusive in the lightning rotation, but still leave it up to the RK about when they felt was the right situation for it.

    -Jinjaah

  11. #36
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by interactii View Post
    A couple of comments on healing and dpsing. As someone who used to do nothing but heal on RK, I've found that over time I've gotten used to most of the changes, but there are a couple comments I have.

    1. The replacement for Our Fates Entwined - I'm either not understanding how I'm supposed to use it. It seems to just absorb 5k damage and then die. I can heal it, but usually its dead before my induction is off - and then it has a really long cool down. Am I using it wrong?

    2. I really miss having the ability to provide buffs. There's nothing there now, after so much work was done to fix that between 75 and 85. I used to have a very potent damage buff that needed constant reapplication, which was great. I could focus the person who needed that extra burst for the content, and it added an extra element to things I had to manage. How didn't that fit in with the new vision for RK?

    3. Besides the healing stone, which I think is good, the other two stones are so weak that I haven't even been traiting them. They do very little damage, a single hit from any of our other skills will outdo all the damage they do over time.

    4. The Will, Fate, and Finesse attributes don't have correct stat values. A single piece of gear gives 217 of our stat, but 7% of our stat points only gives us 75ish more? This should track by level to be 10 item points worth of the stat.

    5. The AOE of lightning, and AOE seems to be the only damage that matters now, is spotty due to the SS% chance. So much of our damage in lit is tied up in that one skill.

    6. How come the itemization bonuses for the HD gold and teal items are as they are? The heal one is great, and right were it should be - 10% HOT, but all the rest - the 10% Chill of winter damage, for our 3 skills on long CDs, and then the 10% to battle or heal attunement - they really are not as potent. Why weren't more potent buffs selected, or even just copying LI attributes (which would have worked just fine - more lit crit mult, and more fire dot?)
    1. The intention is that it should absorb more damage than it does. You are using it right, the stone is just failing its toughness test(any table top players out there? Maybe I'm just a nerd...)

    2. That feeling is valid. It was a conscious decision to not step on the toes of the other classes. We can look to see if we can bring some of this feeling back. I do think there is some room for it with the right approach.

    3. I will take a look at their damage numbers, but for some I think it is also just playstyle preference. The Fulgurite Runestone for example, is my favorite of the bunch.

    4. We are looking at some stat adjustments under the hood, I imagine once those are in place we can really dig into these sort of issues, but I agree.

    5. Yeah I think there could be some re-factoring of the layouts to mitigate this concern. The more we talk about it, the more I think it may be time to rethink SS slightly. It was a great idea, but just isn't working out.

    6. We wanted to prevent stacking too much on top of eachother. Some of the things you are referring to can quickly blow numbers even further out of proportions under certain circumstances. That's not an excuse for a "lame" set bonus, just that we wanted to be safe rather than sorry. I will look into this.

    -Jinjaah

  12. #37
    Jinjaah,

    First I want to say it is amazing how you have been responding so honestly and directly to so many different threads, thank you. we all really appreciate it and I know it is not part of your job description. Thank you for taking the extra effort.

    My main question/thing I miss has to do with slows. We used to have an aoe slow and an individual one that would hold in combat. Now we have to use CaR to get an in combat slow after shocking words and I'm finding it difficult to control the range of a battle without them. Was this an intentional balance since we now have easier in combat healing/bubbles? It seems a decent trade mostly, and with our buffs we definitely don't deserve/need an aoe one, but is it possible to see a traited in combat single target slow? Even the 10% ceaseless argument slow we got with a Moors relic would give an extra layer of options for controlling combat without hopefully overpowering us anymore.
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  13. #38
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eulogia View Post
    Jinjaah,

    First I want to say it is amazing how you have been responding so honestly and directly to so many different threads, thank you. we all really appreciate it and I know it is not part of your job description. Thank you for taking the extra effort.

    My main question/thing I miss has to do with slows. We used to have an aoe slow and an individual one that would hold in combat. Now we have to use CaR to get an in combat slow after shocking words and I'm finding it difficult to control the range of a battle without them. Was this an intentional balance since we now have easier in combat healing/bubbles? It seems a decent trade mostly, and with our buffs we definitely don't deserve/need an aoe one, but is it possible to see a traited in combat single target slow? Even the 10% ceaseless argument slow we got with a Moors relic would give an extra layer of options for controlling combat without hopefully overpowering us anymore.
    You're welcome!

    To your question about slows I have a couple points. One is that I felt there is was a little too much slowing going on at the time of the decision. I definitely wanted you to have that tool in your kit but have it not be just widespread slowing everything. This didn't really work out in practice. Another point is that I think the Shocking Words slow is weird and should be replaced with something else. The way we had to build it is very odd and doesn't work very well. This leads me to the final point. Overall I think there is some room in the healing tree to offer some frost augmentation. Being that then the three elements can sort of shine in each of the trait lines. I think some of the utility that used to exist in frost can be brought back in a new form that way. I also think that would lead to some more utility on the flip side of healing be sprinkled into some of the other lines as well / general skills. Bring even more of the utility knife feel back to the RK. With that being said though, choosing a specialization will choose what you want to do: heal more or Damage more.

    Changes of these kind though would require some time to make sure we did it right, so I can't promise it anytime soon. But at least this gives you some vision into where I would like to be in the future.

    -Jinjaah

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    When it was first created, the name felt more appropriate in that there was a defensive and offensive component built into it. The orbs would either be used offensively to augment some of the attunement cashout skills, or it would reflect a stun when the enemy hit you. The problem was with our current state of stuns, an enemy would hit you, use an orb and take a stun, but then be immune to stuns for the next 8 or 10s. This would cause them to run up and consume another orb but for no effect.

    Then we kind of came to the conclusion that the skill felt like a waste in most situations. At the same time, we felt it did even more than it does now and was kind of confusing as to what situations you saved it for. Looking forward, I think we could take a little away from it while keeping it mostly intact to make it less obtrusive in the lightning rotation, but still leave it up to the RK about when they felt was the right situation for it.

    -Jinjaah
    You're talking about nerfing our capstone lightening skill? o.0

    First of all, I'm having a very hard time understanding why there are a lot of questions about when to use it. In PvE, use it anytime you're in a tough fight. It has a three minute CD, so it's not like you have to wait forever for it to come back up. Where it really shines is in the Moors. It's a lifesaver out there....... especially after distracting winds' slow, the persistent slow on CR, Armor of Winter (actually better than AoS in most situations), our run speed boost from CV and our ability to use WoH on the move were taken away! For goodness sake, use it as soon as you're taking significant damage, you need a DPS boost, you need more energy or you want some extra CC or debuffs. It sure helps when a warg pounces you and takes 15% to 20% of your health before you break the stun, to be able pop C+R, get the defensive bonus, get to 6 DPS attunement in a snap, and be able to drop a SW with a stun and a slow seconds later. I'm not getting the 'obtrusive' part about its use with respect to RK rotations, either. How exactly are any of the buffs it provides obtrusive? So its defensive benefits and duration are reduced by the use of certain skills.... I'm fine with that. That sure isn't a good reason to not use it, especially when it's on a 3 minute CD. If people are having questions about "when they felt was the right situation for it", I'd venture to say they haven't really tried it out or used it much. Why let a great piece of chocolate cake sit on the counter getting stale while wondering about the best time to eat it?

    BTW, thanks for coming to the forums, and being willing to discuss issues with us.
    Last edited by Nouri; Jan 10 2014 at 05:07 PM.

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  15. #40
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    You're talking about nerfing our capstone lightening skill? o.0

    First of all, I'm having a very hard time understanding why there are a lot of questions about when to use it. In PvE, use it anytime you're in a tough fight. It has a three minute CD, so it's not like you have to wait forever for it to come back up. Where it really shines is in the Moors. It's a lifesaver out there....... especially after distracting winds' slow, the persistent slow on CR, Armor of Winter (actually better than AoS in most situations), our run speed boost from CV and our ability to use WoH on the move were taken away! For goodness sake, use it as soon as you're taking significant damage. It sure helps when a warg pounces you and takes 15% to 20% of your health before you break the stun, to be able pop C+R, get the defensive bonus, get to 6 DPS attunement in a snap, and be able to drop a SW with a stun and a slow seconds later. I'm not getting the 'obtrusive' part about its use with respect to RK rotations, either. How exactly are any of the buffs it provides obtrusive? So its defensive benefits and duration are reduced by the use of certain skills.... I'm fine with that. That sure isn't a good reason to not use it, especially when it's on a 3 minute CD. If people are having questions about "when they felt was the right situation for it", I'd venture to say they haven't really tried it out or used it much.

    BTW, thanks for coming to the forums, and being willing to discuss issues with us.
    Fair point, and I didn't mean to come off as discussing a nerf. An example of what I meant was removing the component of writ of lightning so that you could still save an orb for another sustaining bolt or epic conclusion. But if I made a change like that I would first discuss it and we can go from there. Nothing about that comment was set in stone, just kind of letting you know where my mind was at with the skill.

    -Jinjaah

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Fair point, and I didn't mean to come off as discussing a nerf. An example of what I meant was removing the component of writ of lightning so that you could still save an orb for another sustaining bolt or epic conclusion. But if I made a change like that I would first discuss it and we can go from there. Nothing about that comment was set in stone, just kind of letting you know where my mind was at with the skill.

    -Jinjaah
    Fair enough.... thanks for the response. C+R and that Fulgurite stone......... Great skills. Ty,ty,ty for those

    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler
    Casinari - Original Challenger of Saruman Minstrel

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    You're welcome!

    To your question about slows I have a couple points. One is that I felt there is was a little too much slowing going on at the time of the decision. I definitely wanted you to have that tool in your kit but have it not be just widespread slowing everything. This didn't really work out in practice. Another point is that I think the Shocking Words slow is weird and should be replaced with something else. The way we had to build it is very odd and doesn't work very well. This leads me to the final point. Overall I think there is some room in the healing tree to offer some frost augmentation. Being that then the three elements can sort of shine in each of the trait lines. I think some of the utility that used to exist in frost can be brought back in a new form that way. I also think that would lead to some more utility on the flip side of healing be sprinkled into some of the other lines as well / general skills. Bring even more of the utility knife feel back to the RK. With that being said though, choosing a specialization will choose what you want to do: heal more or Damage more.

    Changes of these kind though would require some time to make sure we did it right, so I can't promise it anytime soon. But at least this gives you some vision into where I would like to be in the future.

    -Jinjaah
    Thank you for the reply. I agree, we were insane slow masters before. Slowing everything would be too much for how powerful we are right now. And the shocking words slow I rarely use because EC bleed is so wonderful. Bringing some frost to the heal line would be an interesting way of giving damage to the healing line that is unique and giving us a slow again. I like the idea, but worry in the Moors especially it would mean that we would almost have to be traited healing just to survive well with the bubbles AND a slow.

    As for a utility knife feel, I think the changes to our attunement has made sure we still have an aspect of that, which I like. You see the bigger picture, but for myself I am happy right now with my ability to fill roles as needed but not able to fulfill all roles at once. If buffing the cold is important, having cold be the general skill we all share and the other elements/healing needing to be chosen in a tree would work for me. Perhaps the trees could change what extra things frost would do? And I must say, the chance of instant use frost aoe from essence of storm is excellent, I love it as it is a great debuff to a group if we watch what is going on carefully. You and the other Devs in my opinion did very well with the trait trees. I was worried with all the changes that it would be really strange, but I love the fluidity of the class now. Truly the only thing I really feel I am missing is a slow.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0620500000019e945/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  18. #43
    Thanks for all the responses Jinjaah. It's greet to see the passion you put into your classes, and to see some dev perspective on changes.

    Perhaps there could be a change that would combine both of the issues recognized below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    5. Yeah I think there could be some re-factoring of the layouts to mitigate this concern. The more we talk about it, the more I think it may be time to rethink SS slightly. It was a great idea, but just isn't working out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    2. 100% agree on ceaseless argument. We had many players post some great ideas in the beta for it and I still have them all. I will be looking into this.
    I think there have been many, many good suggestions out there for CA. One simple fix I think would be:

    Each use of Ceaseless Arguement applies a stack of "Static Charge" on the Rune Keeper. At 5 charges, the skill Static Surge is unlocked for a single use (consumes Static Charge buffs)

    Always possible to add some kind of buff too, or even debuff to the Rune Keeper that could stack with Static Charge (-attack duration, +power cost)
    [IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/6gir6u.png[/IMG]

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    You're talking about nerfing our capstone lightening skill? o.0

    First of all, I'm having a very hard time understanding why there are a lot of questions about when to use it. In PvE, use it anytime you're in a tough fight. It has a three minute CD, so it's not like you have to wait forever for it to come back up. Where it really shines is in the Moors. It's a lifesaver out there....... especially after distracting winds' slow, the persistent slow on CR, Armor of Winter (actually better than AoS in most situations), our run speed boost from CV and our ability to use WoH on the move were taken away! For goodness sake, use it as soon as you're taking significant damage, you need a DPS boost, you need more energy or you want some extra CC or debuffs. It sure helps when a warg pounces you and takes 15% to 20% of your health before you break the stun, to be able pop C+R, get the defensive bonus, get to 6 DPS attunement in a snap, and be able to drop a SW with a stun and a slow seconds later. I'm not getting the 'obtrusive' part about its use with respect to RK rotations, either. How exactly are any of the buffs it provides obtrusive? So its defensive benefits and duration are reduced by the use of certain skills.... I'm fine with that. That sure isn't a good reason to not use it, especially when it's on a 3 minute CD. If people are having questions about "when they felt was the right situation for it", I'd venture to say they haven't really tried it out or used it much.

    BTW, thanks for coming to the forums, and being willing to discuss issues with us.
    When I asked about when and in what situations regarding this skill I was asking because I was genuinely interested in the Dev's insight on this skill.

    I don't mind it effecting WoL the way it does, it allows me to debuff multiple healers quickly if needed and if not I can save my orbs and hit other skills.
    The SB effect is least beneficial to us.
    I never rely on the slow from Shocking as much as I count on that stun.

    How many Wargs hips or sprint away from your fight who are already dead and don't know it?

    If you play it right or if the situation is right for it your downtime can be very minimal with this skill as well.

    I'd rather SB and Shocking effects were changed and leave the rest exactly as is or change nothing and live with it. The other roundabout point I was hinting at is that the skill is not really a gamechanger when it comes to pve. The PvP RKs love it, the PvE Rks are meh. I know a few ST Rks who didn't even get the trait. When I asked them why they didn't have it their answer was why do I need it? They don't PvP. I wouldn't leave home without it. So in my mind it's a niched capstone for a small percentage of the RK players, the ones who pvp. At the same time one I absolutely do not want to see changed, of course unless it's changed exactly the way I want it! (<-- sarcasm)


    Attended by Coldaen

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosttaker View Post
    The other roundabout point I was hinting at is that the skill is not really a gamechanger when it comes to pve. The PvP RKs love it, the PvE Rks are meh.)
    Correct!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosttaker View Post
    So in my mind it's a niched capstone for a small percentage of the RK players, the ones who pvp.
    Good Lord, don't say that or they might think about taking it away! /bow
    Last edited by Nouri; Jan 10 2014 at 10:58 PM.

    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler
    Casinari - Original Challenger of Saruman Minstrel

  21. #46
    Well, since we are tossing around ideas, I would like to add my two cents.

    Things I think are realistic to ask to be changed:

    - Fast skills, specifically Scribe a new Ending and Steady Hands (this one has been mentioned before) to be usable on the move.
    Having to stand still to cast these really breaks the flow of combat, and quite often the second my character stops moving and I press
    the button for either of these skills, I get a nice notification telling me "You cannot do that while moving" closely followed by a notification of my untimely demise.

    - The Writ of Health applied by Rousing Words to properly tier down. I've been told this is a bug, but I would still like to draw attention on fixing this.

    - Sustaining Bolt's heal doesn't seem to scale with Attunement. I think it would be nice if this heal is a little more reliable with high attunement,
    though I don't exactly think it needs a buff.

    - Along with more morale on the Fates Entwined stone could the tooltip be updated to show how much damage it redirects (In a percentage, preferably)?

    - Can we also have up to 5 targets on Nothing Truly Ends like the minstrel one?

    Things I would like to see happen:

    - The Frost Armour random proc to be moved to Prelude to Hope, where it would activate when Writ of Health is active on the target, just like the power heal used to do before HD.
    This makes it more like The Fates Entwined used to be, without going back to "press the button and forget it for the rest if the fight".

    - Writ of Lightning removed from the skills that proc Concession and Rebuttal. C&R adds an effect to all the attunement consumers, and having a prime attunement builder in there
    makes this skill a bit weird. If I were to want to use it just for the damage reduction, I wouldn't be able to use my prime builder and do damage in the meantime.
    (apart from that, I love the idea of this new skill as it allows a lot of creativity in rotations)
    If Ceaseless Argument is to be reworked to be more viable again this point can probably be ignored.

    - Increasing the damage reduction and cooldown on Rune-sign of Winter.
    Right now this skill seems like one of the "click whenever off cooldown" skills we were trying to get rid off over the last couple years, and feels a bit underwhelming.
    Increasing the damage reduction (to for instance, 25%) makes it feel a bit more like Glorious Foreshadowing, which is a bit missed.

    Things that I would find amazing but are probably way too much to ask:

    - Making That Which Does Not Kill Us the AOE ground targeted spell on a 40s cooldown, and returning Essay to a longer cooldown skill for emergencies.
    To reiterate, That Which Does Not Kill Us gave the group a 20s duration, 20% damage increase (ofcourse this number can be tweaked for shorter cooldown and thus more uptime, but is actually roughly equal to Anthem of War when legacied).
    If a player was hit during that 20s window, the first hit would be completely negated (this can be changed to reducing a high percentage of damage if a full negate is breaking mechanics)
    and the player would recieve a decent heal over time. Preferably, the damage reduction and heal could trigger when damage exceeds a certain percentage of the player's maximum Morale.

    The reason for this is that it will turn the Rune-keeper back to having to play more pro-actively instead of reactively, and at the same time gives us a damage buff for the group which I'm really missing since old TWDNKU as well as Fall to our Wrath are gone without a replacement.
    New TWDNKU would require both the RK to time it correctly, and if used as a damage buff, makes the group very aware of positioning since getting hit by a stray AOE would result in losing your rather significant damage buff.

    Even though the HD version of Essay of Exaltation is really strong and it has many, many uses, in my opinion it strays too far from the idea of predicting where damage is coming from and having damage reductions in place before it happens.
    Perhaps both skills could exist as a longer and shorter cooldown version, which are swapped in place by a trait.
    Example: Essay is as it is and TWDNKU has a long (say, 3 minute) cooldown, and putting a trait point in "Fierce Rune-keeper" changes the cooldown of TWDNKU to 40s, and Essay to 3 min. (Yes, the name is horrible and is just a placeholder)
    Another option would be that a trait removes Essay and replaces it with TWDNKU instead. Either way, with a trait the player can choose if they want the safe raidshield or rather the more difficult skill which will provide more utility for the group in the long run.

    - The return in some form of Do Not Fall To X. I can see where Their Weapons Shall Not Harm Us might enable groups to ignore boss mechanics, but
    with Rise of Isengard Do Not Fall To X was already changed to absorbing a set amount of damage instead of fully negating an effect, and I don't see why (with proper scaling) the skill could have been so game-breaking that it had to be removed. Damage reduction through skills like Do Not Fall To X were in a large part defining for the distinctive playstyle of the healing Rune-keeper, and with the removal it and other reliable damage reducing skills this distinctive playstyle is largely gone.
    However, with compelling arguments I will probably be able to accept the removal of this skill. ;-)

    Well, that turned out to be a bit more than two cents.

    Even if you don't use anything in this post, I would like to thank you for at least discussing classes with us
    Characters: Tindillin (100 Rank 7 Rune-keeper), Arnillion (95 Rank 4 Hunter) on Evernight

  22. #47
    Some contributions on healing:

    Ground Targeted skills: my first impression was GREAT. Now I hate it. Both Our Fates Entwined and Essay you should be able to cast really fast. Suggestion: when you double click those skills they are used on the Rk spot or an option to opt out or remove it the ground target.

    Rallying verse: there is no point to spend points here. Suggestion: it should increase moral and power for Do Not Fall and on max rank make the duration lasts until you are out of combat (like before)

    Mending Verse: now that it got -2 pulses and +1 cooldown, it is really difficult when we just have to heal 2 chars. (Heal traited we used to get +2 pulses)

    Trully epic: so lame.... We spend 4 points to have a chance on crit on a 15sec cooldown skill to heal 1k on allies within 5 metres?? It should be always, or larger heal and for sure 10/15/20 metres.

    I really miss a skill to negate induction knockback
    I really miss a second big heal, with cooldown. Having 1 skill with 5min cooldown is great!

    Why we need some love:

    We lost: do not fall to fire/lightning/ice, wound/poison/fear/disease prevention, that which shall not kill you.
    We had nerfed: our fates entwined (a lot), glorious foreshadowing (a lot x 2), Mv (+cooldown , -2 pulses), do not fall this day (used to be until out of combat, used to have a trait to boost moral/power)
    We had upgrades: prelude (way better now)
    Soso: epic of ages (lower heal, but now with a hot), heal stone (higher moral heal, no power heal), rune-sign (the skill is nice, but 8sec duration... Kinda of way too low), word of exaltation (lower cooldown but need lots of attun), essay (very low cooldown, ground target yay, ground target nah)
    We got: bombastic inspiration

    We could use 1 or 2 new skills.
    /words

  23. #48
    I am a healing Runekeeper (i have for damage my champ)
    and i am really depressed by the state of my runekeeper in comparison to ministrels
    they beat us in any way i can imagine.
    -there stats and survivalbility are better because of there shield and the loss of our "Martial Training"
    -there singletarget and group healing output is now by far higher and faster just by spamming "Bolster Courage"
    -there rez cd was shortened while our "rezz" got double nerfed

    we lost do not fall to x
    we lost there weapon shall not harm us
    we lost That Which Does Not Kill Us
    we lost Glorious Foreshadowing (and the buff of writ of healing is no replacement for it)
    we lost Our Fates Entwined (and the stone is not a good alternative)
    we lost calming verse and with it much of our mobility

    our rune sign got nerfed
    our mending verse got double nerfed to a point it is barely usefull because i cant build it up anymore because of a 1 sec cd and the 6 sec duration instead of 10 sec
    our bubbles got nerved with the loss of crit immunity
    our Epic of ages got nerved because it heals the group only if it crits which remove so much control over this aoe heal
    our Do Not Fall This Day got double nerfed as mentioned above because i am unable to reduce the cd through skilling and has now this annoying 5 min duration

    our Scribe a New Ending got nerfed but in this case it is realy understandable, this was really a littlebit op

    what we have gotten is
    -a writ of healing upgrade which is nice but it cant replace the foreshading
    -a Our Fates Entwined Stone which fails pretty hard of doing its job
    -a shorter cd of Essay of Exaltation with removed crit def and it is not enough to replace all of our damage reductions, however its the best aoe heal we have now
    so i have very twisted feelings with that
    -a shorter cd of Rousing Words which is nice but this skill is still the twisted blade of aoe heal it was before
    -Bombastic Inspiration which has a very weird concept ... at best, and an extreme terrible delay after using it
    -placeable skill which are annoying as hell while healing
    -and at last: a nice buff that shorters our inductions... which has no real flaws or is overshadowed by something... so thank you for that ^^

    but overall healing runekeeper lost far more than they get in my opinion, and just an upscaling of our numbers wouldn´t be a satisfying solution, we lost so much of our proactive and build-up gameplay that distinguishes runekeepers from ministrels. Now we are just bad and slow ministrels and i dont want to be even a normal ministrel.
    Benedictions of Peace need a really big revise :/
    Last edited by Malganis_Lefay; Jan 10 2014 at 07:27 PM.

  24. #49
    I agree with a lot of the suggestions made. Since I am using mobile, my 2 cents will focus on ss. I see no need to echo other suggestions in detail. BoP needs some love no doubt. As far as dps, I prefer to be mobile and keep enemies at distance. That said, SS doesn't quite fit as a range class skill. I do like having another heavy hitting skill and aoe is great. However, I find it awkward to use. It is a close range skill and doesnt fit any normal rotation. It does make strategy unpredictable. The problem is, I try to avoid melee. It doesn't feel right to dart in, strike, kite away whenever the skill procs. The cone is narrow/depth short and I sometimes miss all together since I try to glide in behind enemies lol. When I am in melee the skill isn't always active so it isnt much of a reliable emergency use kill skill.

    I like the skill and use it but I think it needs to change somehow. I like that SS is different but think it could be better. A wider cone/greater distance would be ok. Or just make it so that ss operates like other lightning skills with aoe effect around the target. It may not be as unique but then the random procs would easily fit into a skill rotation regardless of my ranged position.

    Thanks for taking the time to interact jinjaah. I know we all appreciate it.
    Last edited by DMagius; Jan 10 2014 at 10:50 PM.
    Aut inveniam viam aut faciam

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Bauduco View Post
    Some contributions on healing:

    Ground Targeted skills: my first impression was GREAT. Now I hate it. Both Our Fates Entwined and Essay you should be able to cast really fast. Suggestion: when you double click those skills they are used on the Rk spot or an option to opt out or remove it the ground target.
    A trick I found out using Ground Targeted Skills, if you use keybinds, the first keypress shows the ground target indicator, the second keypress activates the skill. This means that you can hover your mouse where you want the skill to go, and then doubletap your keybind to have it rapidly activate. I agree that this is slower than the skills used to be without ground targetting, but it's still a lot more reliable than clicking on the ground to activate these skills.
    Characters: Tindillin (100 Rank 7 Rune-keeper), Arnillion (95 Rank 4 Hunter) on Evernight

 

 
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