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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by duvelmoortgat View Post
    I like the idea of hard mode, however it already existed in the game.

    Maybe not at early levels but at later level it would.

    No need for Turbine to change anything, You can do it yourself. For example, set a rule: Wear only Yellow or White armour stuff and weapons, no purple, no teal stuff. That would hinder your character big time. No virtues, no passive bonuses.

    I think I will try that with my next character :P playing only white or yellow armour/weapons!
    Pffffttt, we're already doing it naked



    I haven't decided on the staff yet, if things become too tedious I'll upgrade it.

    Like a poster mentioned earlier, we can make it to 95 this way. While this is a decent enough challenge I do miss gearing up as best I can to tackle harder content.

    I might keep this character at 20 for the moment with level-scaled Ettenmoors just around the corner. If it's anything like scaling in BB, then obtaining levels and gear through PvMP should will be at about the right amount of difficulty.
    Last edited by Disparia; Mar 22 2014 at 11:15 AM. Reason: grammer

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disparia View Post
    Pffffttt, we're already doing it naked

    I haven't decided on the staff yet, if things become too tedious I'll upgrade it.

    Like a poster mentioned earlier, we can make it to 95 this way. While this is a decent enough challenge I do miss gearing up as best I can to tackle harder content.

    I might keep this character at 20 for the moment with level-scaled Ettenmoors just around the corner. If it's anything like scaling in BB, then obtaining levels and gear through PvMP should will be at about the right amount of difficulty.
    I'm sure all of us in this thread could show off similar images. But questing naked is completely and entirely not the point of this post, as I've said several times. The idea is to take a more sophisticated approach to adding on layers of challenge - stuff we can't get just by dequipping our gear. Broader aggro range, tougher foes, intelligently reduced potency that forces us to work harder without sacrificing playstyle. An item that is usable to obtain this type of challenge would make it a lot more fun, and a lot less of a hassle, to achieve that. Plus, like I said, the devs would be able to devise something truly evil, think of things I can't think of that would make a bigger difference here. I particularly love the idea of a hardmode version and an insane version, or as someone else suggested, one re-usable item that stacked so that we could finely tune the difficulty level by choosing how many of these effects to stack. The latter would be less of a pain for the devs, since if they tweak game balance we would still be able to compensate by that just by stacking more, or fewer, of the effects.

    Surely anyone who regularly runs around naked can appreciate how cool it would be to have such an item.

  3. #28
    Sorry, I thought it was implied by my post that I'd welcome anything harder, whatever it may be.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disparia View Post
    Sorry, I thought it was implied by my post that I'd welcome anything harder, whatever it may be.
    Ah, I see it now. Sorry I must have missed that the first read. It seems that a lot of the responses to this thread seem to be "you can already do that" so I get a bit prickly on that point.

  5. #30
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    With socketed gear, I'd love to see some essences available that will provide some of the hardmode features we've been asking for in this thread.

  6. #31
    I suggested this same thing a couple of months back. And Yula came up with a suggestion for a slider bar that would let you set your amount of challenge. Since Turbine already put buffs on you when you do the book quests solo, they can surely make the same thing but in the opposite direction so that those that want a real challenge can have it. I don't think they need to mess with the game anymore than they have with update 13, except back to the way it was before the update ( just my opinion ). But I know there are those that like a challenge and something like this would give it to them. And you could use if you wanted to or not.

  7. #32
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    Suggestion:

    Add three store pocket items named "Stone of the Lesser Challenger/Challenger/Greater Challenger" which +25/50/75% incoming damage and -25/50/75% outgoing damage.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by soltasword View Post
    I suggested this same thing a couple of months back. And Yula came up with a suggestion for a slider bar that would let you set your amount of challenge. Since Turbine already put buffs on you when you do the book quests solo, they can surely make the same thing but in the opposite direction so that those that want a real challenge can have it. I don't think they need to mess with the game anymore than they have with update 13, except back to the way it was before the update ( just my opinion ). But I know there are those that like a challenge and something like this would give it to them. And you could use if you wanted to or not.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    I'm sure all of us in this thread could show off similar images. But questing naked is completely and entirely not the point of this post, as I've said several times. The idea is to take a more sophisticated approach to adding on layers of challenge - stuff we can't get just by dequipping our gear. Broader aggro range, tougher foes, intelligently reduced potency that forces us to work harder without sacrificing playstyle. An item that is usable to obtain this type of challenge would make it a lot more fun, and a lot less of a hassle, to achieve that. Plus, like I said, the devs would be able to devise something truly evil, think of things I can't think of that would make a bigger difference here. I particularly love the idea of a hardmode version and an insane version, or as someone else suggested, one re-usable item that stacked so that we could finely tune the difficulty level by choosing how many of these effects to stack. The latter would be less of a pain for the devs, since if they tweak game balance we would still be able to compensate by that just by stacking more, or fewer, of the effects.

    Surely anyone who regularly runs around naked can appreciate how cool it would be to have such an item.
    Unless the item nerfs your own character it could become a prgramming nightmare to have a mob that has one aggro range and damage output for you but not for me. In a dynamic environment like the landscape I think it would cause enormous lag as the game has to identify who has what and what mechanics to use. If people really want more challenge on the landscape I suggest they adjust their character downward - wear level 50 gear and jewelry, use non-legendary weapons, or as some already do just run naked.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    With socketed gear, I'd love to see some essences available that will provide some of the hardmode features we've been asking for in this thread.
    This whole idea seems to be opposite of the traditional MMO paradigm. Which to my mind seems to be, complete various tasks, deeds and achievements with the goal of earning rewards and being more powerful. The more seasoned you are , the less damage you take, the more you do, the better weapons etc you have.

    Now this has always lead to people starting out weak and getting stronger through various means. If one found their character to be too weak for a task they wanted to do, they could analyse their method, look and equipment and devise a new strategy. it helped you develop a better understanding of your class and the game mechanisms.

    There exists a significant variation in how different people would like the general difficulty setting. This largely I believe came about through variation in the degree of understanding of game mechanics and the maxing of individuals characters.

    Arguments for increasing the difficulty centred on instances supposed to require 12 people done by one person. Enemies being killable with 1 action throughout the landscape. Subjective lack of challenge or danger whilst questing.

    Arguments against included but not limited to, familiarity with current difficulty, fear of truly hard or impossible settings, difficulty with specific current quests with certain classes.

    The solution proposed eg. a self nerf item with special effects on aggro range etc. is flawed to the point of never being implementable (by skeleton crew available). The more limited %damage incoming/outgoing workable but not addressing several concerns eg. aggro range / mob density.

    I would describe my own feelings towards a self nerf item as opposed on ideological grounds. It is at odds with the start weak strive to get stronger principle. The solution it would seem to me is to make compromises by further increasing the overall difficulty of the game. This could be done by increasing mob masteries and mitigations at a certain amount per level.

    Some would be unhappy at the increased difficulty, the recent class change and website revamp has lead to a lack of guides to help them. I am aware this would cause dissatisfaction. This would have to be mitigated through community efforts, and with upcoming new global channel perhaps solved through mutual coalition between gamers in similar situations. eg. through fellowship (the driving theme of the whole of LOTR).

    This would allow all players to continue with the principal of strive to be better, gain advantage over foes through all means available etc.

    Where as keeping the game super easy (1 person able to complete tasks aimed at 12) and offering a self nerf item directly opposes that. why work for more virtues (or buy them) if you've got this massive increased damage modifying item on? what happens when you see you're going to fail? do you take it off? fatal flaw to the concept IMO. Why get or earn a new weapon or get that better relic to slot if you're wearing a -% item on? (or buy store items to max your LI - a major income for turbine I understand)

    Store bought item that nerfs you is folly, it directly contradicts most actions you take in game, ie. trying to win each encounter.

    Such variation exists in players that never will everyone be happy, but keeping the central focus of character development is crucial.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzdid View Post
    An interesting idea, but it would take a lot of work on Turbine's part and, personally, I'd rather they focus on fixing existing issues and progressing the game forward to its end. Somehow they would need to balance the game around two groups of people: those with the 'nerf' and those without, and right now they need to finish balancing the existing content around their class overhaul and such. Not saying it's a terrible idea, and it's kind of an extension of the Skirmish tier system, just not one I see them investing the necessary time in at this point.
    It wouldnt be hard at all for turbine to release a store item that nerfs mits/mastery etc by 50% and at the same time increasing mobs damage, just a % change once the item is equipped.

    However its just a quick fix, turbine broke the game with the class changes so they should address the fundemental issues and not sell something in the store (to make more $$) to bored people who want a challenge.

    I've recently tried wildstar, which apart from the carto0ny visuals is everything i want, its challenging (without being way too hard), encourages grouping (which turbine DONT!) and i can die if i pull the wrong mobs....no more #godmode

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoomonkeyuk View Post
    ....turbine broke the game with the class changes so they should address the fundemental issues and not sell something in the store (to make more $$) to bored people who want a challenge.

    The challenge was not broken with the class changes - it was broken before that. When Rohan came out, I noticed that my minstrel was no longer needed because tank classes quit taking damage. I would join in with groups and simply follow behind everybody, telling jokes and providing comic relief, resolving not to use any skill - just to see if I was needed at all. I was not. Now, I play that character only for a regularly scheduled group event on Sunday where others come with poor armor and weapons and the challenge is "To give the minstrel something to do."
    Last edited by Tiempko; Jun 18 2014 at 09:36 AM.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiempko View Post
    The challenge was not broken with the class changes - it was broken before that. When Rohan came out, I noticed that my minstrel was no longer needed because tank classes quit taking damage. I would join in with groups and simply follow behind everybody, telling jokes and providing comic relief, resolving not to use any skill - just to see if I was needed at all. I was not. Now, I play that character only for a regularly scheduled group event on Sunday where others come with poor armor and weapons and the challenge is "To give the minstrel something to do."
    Ok ill re-phrase, they broke it even more with HD

  14. #39
    The 2013 PC discussed this kind of self-nerf idea a lot. No idea of course what the 2014 PC is discussing on this issue.

    The now ancient answer was basically:

    You can do this today by doing any of a number of things like removing armour, stop leveling for a bit, no food etc. without spending any developer time to make something and apply it across the board so that it works everywhere properly. If developer time is allocated to something a player already has control of themselves that means less developer time for other items.

    note: developer time would include all the departments that would be affected by creating such an item. It's not just one developer, it's the whole front and back end.
    One of the then, common comebacks for similar pocket items was the Stone of the Tortoise but we were told at that time, the Stone did not pay for itself and it was a complete loss leader and that the Stone was created for other reasons. Now, that the Stone has been on sale and gotten some more "push" perhaps it is now profitable.

    So, the idea was liked and there were many threads both in the PC 2013 and in the main forums that had great suggestions but there's a trade off for everything. Players have to ask: Is making this happen worth the trade off? Is there enough money in the till to pay for it? And of course, The Stone of the Tortoise does the same thing, it's just not incremental or adjustable.

    Consider Case A:

    You have a pocket item called Buff-the-Mobs. You set this so that each mob is 25% more powerful.

    How is this different than simply stopping your level and fighting 2+, 3+, 10+ levels higher than you are? Or even without stopping your level, you fight 2+, 3+, 10+ levels higher than you are. In the first case you can do more quests within an area, in the second you "out level" the mobs and move on to another region.

    Consider Case B:

    You are in a L40 area with Buff-The-Mobs. You are not using Stone of the Tortoise. You quickly level up to L45. The mobs are still L40 but now 25% harder but they are not auto-buffed to be L45+25% harder. They are still L40 mobs. You still have to move to a L45 area to get the Buff-The-Mobs to provide the increased difficulty.


    It's just a lot easier to remove a chest piece, skip food or buffs and make the game how you like it within the context of what's under your own control. There are players who do not use LIs to make the content harder. You have control of your own environment.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarian_Grace View Post
    -------------snipped for brevity: agree with it all______________
    Where as keeping the game super easy (1 person able to complete tasks aimed at 12) and offering a self nerf item directly opposes that. why work for more virtues (or buy them) if you've got this massive increased damage modifying item on? what happens when you see you're going to fail? do you take it off? fatal flaw to the concept IMO. Why get or earn a new weapon or get that better relic to slot if you're wearing a -% item on? (or buy store items to max your LI - a major income for turbine I understand)

    Store bought item that nerfs you is folly, it directly contradicts most actions you take in game, ie. trying to win each encounter.

    Such variation exists in players that never will everyone be happy, but keeping the central focus of character development is crucial.
    This summarises the reasons that it is a poor idea for those who play to feel 'growth' 'improvement' and thus get satisfaction from those things. And why it is potentially a huge waste of limited resources that run counter to the fundamental mechanics of the game.

    Your suggestion in another thread, of an elf stone of inspiration, (maybe available for a 1000 TP-my suggestion) that allows a player to max morale/power only (scaled like the inspiration stones are) might work, though. Players who used it could be flagged to others as wearing an 'invulnerable' stone.

    As the various undying titles can now be gained from crafting, that woud not be an issue any more. It would not affect damage done by the player: they'd still have to actually kill mobs, so the rate of progression, desire for stronger weapons and to gain more skills, do deeds, or quest related xp wouldn't be affected. It would simply make the wearer nearly unkillable in areas that they found hard tactically (and also completely eliminate the need to interact with others in groups.) edit: it could have a timed use effect like the elfstones do,
    so wouldn't be equipped, all the time.
    Just another idea for those who don't like the return to something closer to pre update 12 levels of difficulty in update 13 and beta 14. These changes are clearly based on turbine's own metrics. (and therefore not to be argued with by forum complainers about current difficulty being to hard?)
    Last edited by Calta; Jun 19 2014 at 01:45 AM. Reason: price point my suggestion, not Eldarian's

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    Just another idea for those who don't like the return to something closer to pre update 12 levels of difficulty in update 13 and beta 14. These changes are clearly based on turbine's own metrics. (and therefore not to be argued with by forum complainers about current difficulty being to hard?)
    And not to be argued with by forum complainers about current difficulty being too easy, either, right?

    The forum is not representative of player satisfaction. It only represents the tiny minority of players who post in it - who as a group are extremely UNlikely to represent players overall. Sales probably are a more accurate metics (though not necessarily of the potential market to which the business hopes to appeal.)

    Editing to add: I am in favor of a self-nerf or mob-buff object for those wanting more of a challenge than is generally appealing.

  17. #42
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    Tanking Mirk skraids t3 with a giant flower wasn't enough of a self-nerf, so yea, bring that thing on. :P

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dal19 View Post
    And not to be argued with by forum complainers about current difficulty being too easy, either, right?

    .
    That was kinda my point.

    In update 13 and now in beta 14 Turbine showed through their balance changes, that we were in fact correct and the game had generally got too easy overall. This decision was possibly based on heamorraghing long term money spending players, possibly due to store sales of buffs decreasing, possibly due to the devs playing themselves, possibly due to class changes bedding in and the difficulty change being planned all along....Who knows? It doesn't matter why they decided. But they did. That's what we've got. A marginal increase in landscape difficulty. For 6 months players who said update 12 was too easy were repeatedly told we were a minority, whiners, complainers, haters, elitists, trolls, liars about difficulty, and that 'Turbine knew best'. Well, if 'turbine knows best' and the game is now vaguely interesting again, and likely getting a bit harder in update 14 in instances and skirms, as a consequence of their own metrics, then why should those who enjoy a challenge pay more for it than the outliers who think it is 'too hard', do? Mostly, by their own admission they don't do group stuff anyway so 14 won't affect them. A pocket item to give them vast morale would solve their landscape issues without affecting the rest of us.

    Many of the same few forum people who repeatedly said 'turbine knows best' when the game was ultra easy are now proposing people (not them) pay more money to play something resembling the game the rest of us enjoyed playing until update 12. My solution is just give the handful of players who can't do the majority of landscape quests the option of paying for an easier game. Seems more than fair to me.

  19. #44
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    Interesting thread. Another way to make the game challenging is to use the tortoise stone to remain below level and then group with others for the hard content - having RP fun along the way. That's what we're doing in Club Slowtro on Laurelin - inspired by Club Eclair on Landroval. You're all welcome to stop by (we're currently at level 6, doing lvl 11 quests and just downed a lvl 15 elite warg). Eventually we'll be doing the whole Epic Story and all the regions (or as many as we like).

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ub-on-Laurelin
    Last edited by Clabauterman; Jun 19 2014 at 06:53 AM. Reason: Small addition to text

 

 
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