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Thread: Threat 12.1

  1. #1
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    Threat 12.1

    It really is nice to see that we tanks gain extra threat from heals....but why the hell have the force taunts been nerfed in half?

    They are our only way of keeping aggro atm, since you gave every other class massive overkill in dps....we havent a chance of keeping aggro from Loremasters/minstrels/champions/hunters....so really its a nice addition to our arsenal.

    You havent balanced anything in this game with hd, tanking is redundant now in everything but raids....a hunter in my kin makes the best tank on any 6-man we do as, with his dps he out-aggroes the rest of us, i dont bother going tank stance any more, as with 15k morale and the massive overheals minstrels do he can take anything.. For a laugh we had a champion tank a skraid in red-line with a minstrel healing, and once again we managed....the only advantage us guards had was the 3 force taunts, which we could manage t keep 1 target on us, but thats going to change.

    This was all topped off by me finally levelling my captain and champ....with the changes you made to them i dont see why i bothered with my guardian...my captain can block with a 2h (way more fun than a shield)...add some nice heals (which atm are not needed), buff others (sometimes needed) and runs into the same old problem of not keeping aggro because of the OVERKILL in dps on all other classes.

    If you keep insisting on giving everyone massive dps at least give us the old threat system back....it may have worked better....we wont know as tyrbine refused to release details on it. Something needs to be done or you may aswell remove the tank class from the game full stop.

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    am I being ignorant in saying not much has changed in 12.1 from HD

    tell me if I'm wrong here but this is all I see is this...

    All force attack skills have had their durations reduced to 5 seconds.
    seen as the new threat system doesn't really need the old force taunts anymore given the new threat system and how the new taunts work, I don't really see this as a nurf at all given your taunts have ~20s cooldowns iinc.

    however this thread is probably just badly titled as your real issue you raised seems to be the difficulty of content and if tanks are even needed at all. I fully agree with you about the balance of class synergy being way off and rolls and healer and tank becoming less needed like CC and support have had in the past.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    seen as the new threat system doesn't really need the old force taunts anymore
    Huh?

    Force taunts are all tanks have (had) now. Well, that and piddling DPS skills.

    I suppose the increase of damage for many classes, the reduction of need to heal with such little incoming damage, and now removal of effective taunts, the last vestige of "tanking", just means tanks are being rendered moot entirely? (And with it, tank gameplay, and group dynamics.) Well, unless you consider hunters keeping aggro "tanking", while guards apply debuffs and minis AoE DPS? Which seems to be how groups have been running content on live.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    am I being ignorant in saying not much has changed in 12.1 from HD
    uhm.... yes. forced taunt is the ONLY way for a guardian to stop a commander or a troll if you've done ANY HD content at all... as of right now, guardians are COMPLETELY locked out of being able to deal with sappers or any other mob that IGNORES forced taunt. we do NOT have enough dps to deal with a single sapper let along 3 sappers... without the ability to stop them (yes they run right through tripwire too) basically guardians are useless in that event.

    IF you have done any HD instance, you KNOW they do not come in nice clean "packs" they more or less trickle in so alot of the time even a challenge miss out on 1 or 2 mobs. the only saving grace is we can turn a troll/commander with forced taunt (IF they haven't been rendered immune by a tripwire) and now they want to cut that down in half?....

    good luck getting aggro and cutting down a troll or 3 with your UBER guardian DPS in the current aggro mechanic

    litany = useless, shield taunt = useless, the ONLY things that WORK are forced taunts. guardians DO NOT HAVE enough DPS to generate aggro....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellegos View Post
    Force taunts is primary way to keep agro for tanks.
    For tanks (guard/warden) it should not be -5secs. But It can be -5 secs for cappies.
    for BBs you mean, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellegos View Post
    Force taunts is primary way to keep agro for tanks.
    Only in the Epic Battles and only on some mobs (for example, some trolls). The problem with those mobs though is that they reset themselves. They wipe not only agro table, but also dots, dazes, they ignore roots and they have enourmous out of combat morale regen which allows them to restore a big portiong of their morale during such reset.

    Outside of the Battles force taunts are not that important for tanking. What is not well explained in the game is that all force taunt skills have a threat catch-up mechanics. As soon as you use any of these skills, you copy the agro of the most threatening person in the group and receive extra %s on top of that. "Force taunt" ability itself (i.e. looking as the most threatening target for some time while not being it) becomes absolute it most situations so it's duration (5s or 10s) is of no importance.

    I tank a lot on my captain in HD - in smaller instances, in BG/OD t2c, in all sort of Battles. The only time when I might need the force taunt effect is when I make a pull and thus there is no other member in the group from which I would be able to copy agro. Usually I do not wish to waste such a powerful skill for pulling, so I am either asking my shield brother to pull, or my herald, or use noble mark / routing cry for that. The reduction of force taunts by 5s will not affect my tanking at all.


    What needs to be improved though, are the cooldowns of some threat catch-up skills and the number of targets they affect. At present, Champions have only one single target threat catch-up skill and Wardens have only one aoe catch-up skill with equally long cooldowns: 30 seconds. Compare it to a Captain (AoE skill on 15s cd, single target on 20s cd) and a Guardian (AoE on 30s cd, 2 single target skills with 10s and 30s cd iirc). This is the main reason why Champs and Wardens are struggling with agro while Captains and Guardians have no problems at all.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by pvdtheking View Post
    ...but why the hell have the force taunts been nerfed in half?
    They are changing the base duration from 10 seconds to 5 seconds on all force taunts. The Guardian should still be fine, because don't they have gear that extends it 5 seconds, and Legendary Item/Weapon duration for 5 seconds? So instead of potentially 20 seconds, it's being knocked down to 15 seconds?

    But yes as far as Wardens, Champs, Captains, I'm not sure that helps them out too much when they tank.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makiveli2084 View Post
    They are changing the base duration from 10 seconds to 5 seconds on all force taunts. The Guardian should still be fine, because don't they have gear that extends it 5 seconds, and Legendary Item/Weapon duration for 5 seconds? So instead of potentially 20 seconds, it's being knocked down to 15 seconds?

    But yes as far as Wardens, Champs, Captains, I'm not sure that helps them out too much when they tank.
    yeah i think it's a bit silly when i see guards complain about this. not only do we have a fifteen second taunt duration, we have three taunts, and one of them is ranged on a 10s cooldown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oaceen View Post
    yeah i think it's a bit silly when i see guards complain about this. not only do we have a fifteen second taunt duration, we have three taunts, and one of them is ranged on a 10s cooldown.
    My point was at the moment tanking is IMPOSSIBLE without force taunts...END OF! this is due to the massive dps that all other classes do. I know tanks get a bonus from what dps they do (300% im not sure) which is added to their threat gen, but whatever it is theres not a single class that can tank without force taunts at the moment.....hence nerfing them in half is a total joke. And yes i only banged on about guardians, but its worse for all other tanking classes.

    Yes we have 3 force taunts, so can keep 1 MOB, yes 1 MOB aggroed permenantly......what about all other adds?, tanking isnt just about aggroing 1 target at a time, or have i missed something.

    Its been mentioned that we dont need tanks now in anything but raids...then what is the point in having a dedicated tanking line? Turbine has made it clear they dont see raiding as profitable and it being the only need of tanks then why have them?

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    except only fray and challenge ACTUALLY work.... cutting that down will not balance the game, it will simply drive people away from the game.

    anyway. for those who are happy about this change, good for you. the rest of us aren't sticking around to see the results

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    Quote Originally Posted by pvdtheking View Post
    My point was at the moment tanking is IMPOSSIBLE without force taunts...END OF! this is due to the massive dps that all other classes do.
    Tanking is impossible without a threat catch-up effect. Force taunts are just a nice addition. I have no problems tanking multiple mobs on a captain and - just like for guards - the cooldown on the challenge skill is longer than the duration of the force taunt associated with it. Mobs stay on me when the force taunt is not active. Sometimes you do need to talk to dps classes and instruct them when to use stronger attacks, or just watch their animations and use the threat catch-up skills immediately after big AoE attacks. It will give you a nice leading position in agro until the skill is off cd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pvdtheking View Post
    My point was at the moment tanking is IMPOSSIBLE without force taunts...END OF! this is due to the massive dps that all other classes do. I know tanks get a bonus from what dps they do (300% im not sure) which is added to their threat gen, but whatever it is theres not a single class that can tank without force taunts at the moment.....hence nerfing them in half is a total joke. And yes i only banged on about guardians, but its worse for all other tanking classes.

    Yes we have 3 force taunts, so can keep 1 MOB, yes 1 MOB aggroed permenantly......what about all other adds?, tanking isnt just about aggroing 1 target at a time, or have i missed something.

    Its been mentioned that we dont need tanks now in anything but raids...then what is the point in having a dedicated tanking line? Turbine has made it clear they dont see raiding as profitable and it being the only need of tanks then why have them?
    as Lunasa said, they have a built-in +20% threat over whomever-is-the-aggro-leader, so the forced taunt duration is irrelevant anyway.


    as for not building enough aggro, are you actively building your threat? using shield damage and shield-smash damage legacy, maxing out your shield-use rank for blue. using a 2h and maxing out dps for yellow. i tank in yellow, and i use three dmg boosting legacies on my tanking sword (bleed dmg, whirling retaliation dmg, sweeping cut dmg). i would have vexing blow too, but i opted for +melee aoe targets instead. i use the +10% aoe skill damage as well as the +10% skill dmg from redline, and i even use might stat legacies as well.

    once i maxed out my block and parry, i swapped to the inc healing / crit / morale settings. once i maxed out my mitigations, i swapped to a might/crit/mastery crafted relic.

    i have roughly 35k mastery and 6k crit in my tank build. still capped on block/parry/tactical mitigation, about 18% evade and crit def around 60% and do roughly 1.5-2k dps on a single target, which is 6-8k tps. i know that some classes can hit this high, but that is why they gave us the taunts. to catch up for dps who don't hold back or wait for the tank to build aggro.

    having threat tied to dps now means that you need to actively build your dps for threat, not just having threat gen up legacy and call it a night.


    taunts aren't really the answer imo. to improve threat for guards, they need to fix the horrendous animation times. i'm sure i could do a lot more threat than i already do. i rarely use taunts as it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oaceen View Post
    having threat tied to dps now means that you need to actively build your dps for threat, not just having threat gen up legacy and call it a night.


    taunts aren't really the answer imo. to improve threat for guards, they need to fix the horrendous animation times. i'm sure i could do a lot more threat than i already do. i rarely use taunts as it is.
    How do you think guards and wardens (esp wardens) will manage in the 'tank must do no damage as s/he kites mobs/boss' scenarios, especially in dealing with healing threat from minstrels crits? Do you think your self heals would keep adding to your aggro or your position on threat table, even if you can't do damage? And are these heals enough to keep you alive? or do we risk a wipe by pulling aggro off you through big heals? is it easy to get it back?

    Minstrels are curious since we've had a total threat management by-pass and no information on how healing threat works in threat table. All I know is i can pull mobs of my warden and hunter mates with a 'lucky' crit.
    Last edited by Calta; Dec 11 2013 at 02:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    How do you think guards and wardens (esp wardens) will manage in the 'tank must do no damage as s/he kites mobs/boss' scenarios, especially in dealing with healing threat from minstrels crits? Do you think your self heals would keep adding to your aggro or your position on threat table, even if you can't do damage? And are these heals enough to keep you alive? or do we risk a wipe by pulling aggro off you through big heals? is it easy to get it back?

    Minstrels are curious since we've had a total threat management by-pass and no information on how healing threat works in threat table. All I know is i can pull mobs of my warden and hunter mates with a 'lucky' crit.
    Kiting may become a problem indeed, but how often do you have to do it? Which fights actually require you to kite mobs which are also the dps target instead of tanking them? If you just kite mobs which do not need to die immediately, you can briefly turn to them and use the aoe threat catch-up skill. It surpasses the agro which the healer has. For example, I was kiting/tanking Caerogs in Sari Surma last boss fight. Those two mobs are squishy and you really don't want to kill them - the existing threat catch-up skills allow to keep the mobs on you.

    I understand that on paper all this looks scary, but until now I did not see a situation where - as a tanking captain - I would have any problems. If agro is lost for a second on trash mobs I can always get it back, but I am yet to lose it ever in any single boss fight. This includes all the fights where the boss should not be attacked due to cc or some morale threshold.

    The only issue I encountered until now is that with 2 tanks in the same raid it may become hard to separate the mobs between the two tanks. In the past you would be able to have a main tank and an off-tank who is the second on the agro table and who gets the agro if the main tank loses it. Now all AoE threat catch-up skills just pull agro immediately and it becomes frustrating sometimes. I also saw a funny situation during the Gortheron t2c fight where Gortheron was challenged (at least we think so) by two tanks (guardian+captain) at exactly the same moment. The boss was switching agro between the two of us every few seconds for the next several minutes. He was running across the room and turning back even though we both did not use any other skills. The only way we found to stop it was to let one of us die.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasa View Post
    <snipped>
    but until now I did not see a situation where - as a tanking captain - I would have any problems. If agro is lost for a second on trash mobs I can always get it back, but I am yet to lose it ever in any single boss fight. This includes all the fights where the boss should not be attacked due to cc or some morale threshold.

    The only issue I encountered until now is that with 2 tanks in the same raid it may become hard to separate the mobs between the two tanks. In the past you would be able to have a main tank and an off-tank who is the second on the agro table and who gets the agro if the main tank loses it. Now all AoE threat catch-up skills just pull agro immediately and it becomes frustrating sometimes. .
    Thanks for the reply.
    two more questions
    Do wardens and chanks have the same abilty as cappies to hold it/get it back?
    If a minstrel spam heals their group heals (like the OP critting BC) is there an additional threat problem from overhealing?

    (I am genuinely looking for information here. Managing healing aggro is a bit of an issue for some of us minies atm.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    Do wardens and chanks have the same abilty as cappies to hold it/get it back?
    If a minstrel spam heals their group heals (like the OP critting BC) is there an additional threat problem from overhealing?

    (I am genuinely looking for information here. Managing healing aggro is a bit of an issue for some of us minies atm.)
    No, wardens and champs are both worse than guards/captains at holding aoe agro :/ I do not play these two classes much, but that is what I gathered from my friends:

    Champions have only one (!) single target (!) threat catch-up skill on a 30s cooldown. It means that only once per half a minute a champion can grab the agro of one mob. All the remaining agro can be only obtained through dps which - for a chank - is not nearly enough. All champions which I know as good chanks in the past are struggling a lot now.

    For wardens it is only slightly better since their only threat catch-up skill is AoE, but also with 30s cd which is too long for the fast-pace fights nowadays. The patch notes mention that the self-healing of a tank will generate more agro now, so this should be helping wardens (and it will buff captains even more, my selfhealing is on par with that of wardens). I hope so, most wardens I know prefer to dps nowadays, because their agro management is pretty much screwed.

    I absolutely don't understand why these two tanking classes (especially wardens!) are in such disadvantageous position now. Guards and Captains have both shorter cooldowns and multiple skills with the threat catch-up ability. Some of the players still manage to screw up though, but I believe it is only because they did not hear about the changes in the agro system. Every time I meet a guardian who complains he can't keep agro, I redirect him to the bohbashum's thread (here) and in most cases it helps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    How do you think guards and wardens (esp wardens) will manage in the 'tank must do no damage as s/he kites mobs/boss' scenarios, especially in dealing with healing threat from minstrels crits? Do you think your self heals would keep adding to your aggro or your position on threat table, even if you can't do damage? And are these heals enough to keep you alive? or do we risk a wipe by pulling aggro off you through big heals? is it easy to get it back?

    Minstrels are curious since we've had a total threat management by-pass and no information on how healing threat works in threat table. All I know is i can pull mobs of my warden and hunter mates with a 'lucky' crit.
    well i tank in yellow on my guard. it's actually really well-designed for kiting. for other lines, i'm not sure. like Lunasa said, i haven't had to kite yet in anything except maybe maze, but i'm kiting all the wights that no one is supposed to be killing anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasa View Post
    No, wardens and champs are both worse than guards/captains at holding aoe agro :/ I do not play these two classes much, but that is what I gathered from my friends:

    Champions have only one (!) single target (!) threat catch-up skill on a 30s cooldown. It means that only once per half a minute a champion can grab the agro of one mob. All the remaining agro can be only obtained through dps which - for a chank - is not nearly enough. All champions which I know as good chanks in the past are struggling a lot now.

    For wardens it is only slightly better since their only threat catch-up skill is AoE, but also with 30s cd which is too long for the fast-pace fights nowadays. The patch notes mention that the self-healing of a tank will generate more agro now, so this should be helping wardens (and it will buff captains even more, my selfhealing is on par with that of wardens). I hope so, most wardens I know prefer to dps nowadays, because their agro management is pretty much screwed.

    I absolutely don't understand why these two tanking classes (especially wardens!) are in such disadvantageous position now. Guards and Captains have both shorter cooldowns and multiple skills with the threat catch-up ability. Some of the players still manage to screw up though, but I believe it is only because they did not hear about the changes in the agro system. Every time I meet a guardian who complains he can't keep agro, I redirect him to the bohbashum's thread (here) and in most cases it helps.
    i don't have a champ, but i was told that blueline gives champs an AOE taunt or makes their single-target taunt into an AOE (it was really vaguely worded when it was explained to me). either way, i agree that their taunts are lacking a lot compared to guards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasa View Post
    I absolutely don't understand why these two tanking classes (especially wardens!) are in such disadvantageous position now. Guards and Captains have both shorter cooldowns and multiple skills with the threat catch-up ability. Some of the players still manage to screw up though, but I believe it is only because they did not hear about the changes in the agro system. Every time I meet a guardian who complains he can't keep agro, I redirect him to the bohbashum's thread (here) and in most cases it helps.
    Thanks again. This pretty much matches my limited experience. I'd read Boba's thread but wasn't sure if mechanics had changed again. Here's hoping the other 2 tanking classes get their mojo back.
    BTW-seems like Guardians did well, but Cappies won the jackpot this class revamp. All three lines seem to work. Lucky cappies

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  19. #19
    As a Champion, all I can say is use the horn of the champion once and no npc will be taken off of you by any kind of healing aggro atleast.
    Even though it is not listed as a force taunt, I ran into BfE with this and kept all further aggro with autoattacks so go figure.
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  20. #20
    In any type of Aoe situation in raids I almost never keep aggro once my force taunt wears off. I have champs and LMs that can parse anywhere from 15k-20k dps with aoes so even with the catchup mechanic of challenge I still lose aggro almost immediately. I think maybe if they added in the old litany aggro buff on mobs under the affect of challenge or moved the catchup mechanic at the end of force taunts instead of the beginning I would keep aggro a bit better. As its stands now if my kinnies are going full swing in instances I lose aggro almost as soon as the force taunt wears off. Granted with the morale pools and mini heals my hunters tank just fine.... but I feel a little bit useless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg112 View Post
    As a Champion, all I can say is use the horn of the champion once and no npc will be taken off of you by any kind of healing aggro atleast.
    Even though it is not listed as a force taunt, I ran into BfE with this and kept all further aggro with autoattacks so go figure.
    as a champ... you shouldn't HAVE problems with taking/holding aggro... champs = DPS class. DPS = aggro... why would a champ even worry about aggro?

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    wardens havn't had the old force taunt element on there taunt, so only a bonus to them.

    the old taunt doesn't need any duration at all really to pull a mob off ally soldiers in BB's, just the initial old taunt pulls mobs off you and then aggro from damage is easily enough to hold it. nurf from 7(?)s to 5s is kinda moot in big battles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    wardens havn't had the old force taunt element on there taunt, so only a bonus to them.

    the old taunt doesn't need any duration at all really to pull a mob off ally soldiers in BB's, just the initial old taunt pulls mobs off you and then aggro from damage is easily enough to hold it. nurf from 7(?)s to 5s is kinda moot in big battles.
    Thank you for your reply.
    My holding threat question originally came from an 'old instance/skirm' point of view, regarding aggro management for healers: with healing threat generated being equal to dps threat generated and no threat reduction skills of legacies on minstrels, it is a bit of a problem, while we work things out.

    I haven't done a BB raid yet so I haven't needed to heal players. But it sounds like healing aggro won't be a problem in those. I haven't seen a single 'need healer' for any BB. When i ask in a pug, i'm told trait 'dps and officer' ... so i mostly let the npcs keep threat and tank for me while i clickety click click officers. Their heals are much more reliable on npcs than my minstrel's are ./sadpanda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    My holding threat question originally came from an 'old instance/skirm' point of view, regarding aggro management for healers: with healing threat generated being equal to dps threat generated and no threat reduction skills of legacies on minstrels, it is a bit of a problem, while we work things out.
    healing aggro isn't so clear cut, it's also not been figured out completely.

    one fact we do know is that you only get aggro from actual heals, not over heals. with the amount of damage enemies doing it caps the amount of aggro healers can actually generate quite a lot. and that damage will be split between other people too, for example a captain will heal off actual numbers a lot with smaller ticks while your minstrel's bigger heals might have large percentages of the heals over-healing and not turning into additional aggro.

    in-combat moral regain makes it really hard to figure out what is actually healed and what is over-healed too

    the healing threat multipler is only in effect (the new one of 12.1) is on tanks in there tank specs too so old formulars still apply iinc so you should be generate a lot less aggro is perportion to tanks.

    I think the days of healers actually worring about aggro is kinda out the door now with how much damage players are doing compared to the little amount we're getting hit. with this huge buff to tanks aggro in 12.1 tanking (the aggro side) should be much, much easier.


    I haven't done a BB raid yet so I haven't needed to heal players. But it sounds like healing aggro won't be a problem in those. I haven't seen a single 'need healer' for any BB. When i ask in a pug, i'm told trait 'dps and officer' ... so i mostly let the npcs keep threat and tank for me while i clickety click click officers. Their heals are much more reliable on npcs than my minstrel's are ./sadpanda
    you'll be surprised :P

    aggro in BB's seems to be set patterns with enemies going for set allies. but if that ally soldier is dead they pick a player at the highest aggro, thats normally the minstrel proccing a heal to something. so while the enemie is just spawning the healers get targetted and focused A LOT! enemies arn't as easy to pull off too because of the weird aggro system in there so tanks NEED to force taunt or dps need to keep an eye on there healers to kill mobs on them.

    BB's can snowball into fail because of this pretty quickly. in beta many times if the group got a little behind and let just a few allies die, the healers ended up pullings 10's and progressively more every pull, after a while and started camping players at spawn point.

    although I've not checked raid BB's on live or 12.1 :P
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  25. #25
    I have have been tanking a fair bit on my Warden (95, decent gear). Running a mix of Big Battles, 3 man, 6 man, and a raid or two.

    In big battles, there are "specific" mobs that are designed to be tanked. These are most common in larger fights. These are normally elite master and nemesis level mobs. These are put in place for a real tank to pull and hold aggro. Their aggro table does not have any target priority set. All other mobs are not ment for players to tank. If you are finding you need to tank these mobs to succeed, you are missing the point of the fight.

    As a warden, I normally run engineer. I find spamming conviction while OOC puts me on the top of the aggro tables for when a mob does not have a target priority.

    Outside of big battles, tanking requires a mentality change. If you are trying to be a big an bad as possible, but your DPS is suffering, you will suffer holding aggro. For single target fights, I run 3k-5k DPS. You do not need to be invincible. Trust your healer more, and find a balance between DPS and survivability.
    Beleag, Warden - Saelmundi, Rune-keeper - Nimerdale, Champion - Haldoun, Captain

 

 

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