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  1. #1

    guardians and wardens should go back to 3 morale per vitality

    With the new gear always having a large chunk of vitality even with agi/might/will being the main stat on the piece I think it's time that they had their morale from vitality contribution lowered from 5 to be the same as all other classes which is 3 per vit. Instead guards and wardens should be give +% morale in their tank lines the same way champs and captains do.

    This would reduce their hugely bloated morale pools when dpsing, bringing it more in line with other dps classes, while still keeping their high morale for when it's needed. Which is when they're tanking.

    dps on guardians and wardens was generally lower in previous expansions than that of main dps classes, giving them more survivability while dpsing was acceptable then. However with the was gear has changed and the dps being improved they should go back to 3 morale per vitality.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakanor View Post
    With the new gear always having a large chunk of vitality even with agi/might/will being the main stat on the piece I think it's time that they had their morale from vitality contribution lowered from 5 to be the same as all other classes which is 3 per vit. Instead guards and wardens should be give +% morale in their tank lines the same way champs and captains do.

    This would reduce their hugely bloated morale pools when dpsing, bringing it more in line with other dps classes, while still keeping their high morale for when it's needed. Which is when they're tanking.

    dps on guardians and wardens was generally lower in previous expansions than that of main dps classes, giving them more survivability while dpsing was acceptable then. However with the was gear has changed and the dps being improved they should go back to 3 morale per vitality.
    You hve things totally backward....its the other classes that should go back to having less morale. ATM all others have outrageous dps with 15k+ morale.....in the past (when things were a bit harder) having more dps meant you traded a bit of survivability, now its the opposite. Classes are so unbalanced atm its unbeliavable, its all to keep things so easy a blind person with no arms and legs could solo a 12-man raid.

    Ill concede that i would accept 3 pts per vit if we had the same dps as the rest of you lot...hell why not? its not like tanks are needed. Turbine well done, another customer close to running for the hills where your piss easy, molly coddling game is concerned.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakanor View Post
    With the new gear always having a large chunk of vitality even with agi/might/will being the main stat on the piece I think it's time that they had their morale from vitality contribution lowered from 5 to be the same as all other classes which is 3 per vit. Instead guards and wardens should be give +% morale in their tank lines the same way champs and captains do.

    This would reduce their hugely bloated morale pools when dpsing, bringing it more in line with other dps classes, while still keeping their high morale for when it's needed. Which is when they're tanking.

    dps on guardians and wardens was generally lower in previous expansions than that of main dps classes, giving them more survivability while dpsing was acceptable then. However with the was gear has changed and the dps being improved they should go back to 3 morale per vitality.
    If we go down this road, how much morale should be taken off reavers and blackarrows?
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by pvdtheking View Post
    You hve things totally backward....its the other classes that should go back to having less morale. ATM all others have outrageous dps with 15k+ morale.....in the past (when things were a bit harder) having more dps meant you traded a bit of survivability, now its the opposite. Classes are so unbalanced atm its unbeliavable, its all to keep things so easy a blind person with no arms and legs could solo a 12-man raid.

    Ill concede that i would accept 3 pts per vit if we had the same dps as the rest of you lot...hell why not? its not like tanks are needed. Turbine well done, another customer close to running for the hills where your piss easy, molly coddling game is concerned.
    I agree with the way gear is now, everyone has too much survivability and it's become really easy. By reducing the morale per vit of guards and wardens to 3 like every other class it means that while DPS traited they won't have a load more survivability than other classes. While TANK traited their morale should be what it is now, as I said this can then be done the same way champs and captains have +% morale in their tank builds.

    However it looks like the gear is going to stay this way and giving guards and wardens 2/3 more moral per vit while not tanking is way too high as no one has to sacrifice vit for their dps builds now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbercamp View Post
    If we go down this road, how much morale should be taken off reavers and blackarrows?
    When I first thought of this I was just thinking towards pve. I think it's too early to tell if reavers or bas will need morale reductions, can't really base it solely on bullroarer most people have auto ranked to 15 and are swimming in tp which they buy buffs with. btw did they fix warden bleeds not being mitigated properly?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakanor View Post
    I agree with the way gear is now, everyone has too much survivability and it's become really easy. By reducing the morale per vit of guards and wardens to 3 like every other class it means that while DPS traited they won't have a load more survivability than other classes. While TANK traited their morale should be what it is now, as I said this can then be done the same way champs and captains have +% morale in their tank builds.

    However it looks like the gear is going to stay this way and giving guards and wardens 2/3 more moral per vit while not tanking is way too high as no one has to sacrifice vit for their dps builds now.



    When I first thought of this I was just thinking towards pve. I think it's too early to tell if reavers or bas will need morale reductions, can't really base it solely on bullroarer most people have auto ranked to 15 and are swimming in tp which they buy buffs with. btw did they fix warden bleeds not being mitigated properly?
    No , sadly the bleeds are unfixed and I am sure never will be. There must be something to complicate for the current devs to grasp inside warden fot structure. Some things do common damage when they should do weapon type/oil type damage and then the "no damage type' bleeds.

    As for vit change, well, without the dps tradeoff I still see no reason for it.
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  6. #6
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    I will agree to take away my morale IF (and only if) my DPS in red line matches that of a champion. Unless that happens, stay away from my morale pool.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by difens View Post
    I will agree to take away my morale IF (and only if) my DPS in red line matches that of a champion. Unless that happens, stay away from my morale pool.
    i agree totally.

    OP when someone hints on reaver and blackarrow morale you say lets not take it so quickly.. you're funny indeed.

    yeah yeah "nerf others and keep my class op it is wai for miself" threads..
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by MeLoWaR View Post
    i agree totally.

    OP when someone hints on reaver and blackarrow morale you say lets not take it so quickly.. you're funny indeed.

    yeah yeah "nerf others and keep my class op it is wai for miself" threads..
    Honestly if you knew anything about me you would know that's not what this is about, sure buff your damage up to that of a red line champ and lower your morale. Red line champ isn't close to having the highest ST dps.

    Also I never said that reaver and blackarrow (or any other creep class) morale shouldn't be decreased in fact i'll be all for it if especially if they becomes too easy. I get bored really quickly if it's too easy. All I said was you can't really tell from bullroarer where everyone is r15 and it's not even been open long enough for people to get a proper feel for how things would be at normal ranks and all scales of fights not just 1v1
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by difens View Post
    I will agree to take away my morale IF (and only if) my DPS in red line matches that of a champion. Unless that happens, stay away from my morale pool.
    In fact, this is the case.
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  10. #10
    Agreed with the OP. Much of these freep rebalances are centered on making us specialized at what we're traited for. While the ideal of relative dps balance between various classes when traited for it is far from achieved (see my warden running dps laps around better geared red-line champs) having this innate morale buffer really has no plave any more. Make a 10 or 20% bonus to morale a passive for a tanking class when running their tanking specialization and be done with this advantage.
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  11. #11
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    You people fail to realize that dps of red traited guardian or warden is not even close to dps that champ or hunter are capable off...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by difens View Post
    You people fail to realize that dps of red traited guardian or warden is not even close to dps that champ or hunter are capable off...
    Not even close to that of hunter maybe, but close to that of a champ? Have a look here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ur-DPS-looking
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    people, PEOPLE! Calm down, it is just another QQ from creep...

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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellegos View Post
    Guys replying to this thread never ever played Guards or Warden. Why don't you guys use Guard DPS in 95 T2C Flight? Their is combat analysis too. Just use them and then talk and don't just post blind posts and comments. I request you to go play guard and then make such absurd requests. You guys are so naive, that instead of asking Turbine to balance out the classes for their specific role you are asking for making another class unbalanced.

    Guard is only class nicely balanced compared to other SUPER OP class like Captain, Hunters, Champs and LM. Cappy in my kin is tanking 95 T2C BG, flight and BFE. So, why don't you ask Turbine to delete Guard and Wardens all together. Your classes are so OP that you don't need them anymore in any raid.
    It would seem you need to look at the guard. Of course guard dps in Flight isn't great, at what point was guard dps designed for strong aoe dps. Which is what Flight is mostly about. Guards have some aoe true but it would be similar to a red line champ with enough in yellow to unlock raging blades going in to flight and expecting to match that of a proper aoe traited champ.

    Also what is wrong with a cappy being able to do that now? They now have a proper tanking line so they should be able to tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vilda View Post
    people, PEOPLE! Calm down, it is just another QQ from creep...
    Again not a QQ thread... people like you just read something and if they don't like it even slightly just completely dismiss it as creep QQ without actually thinking about it

    I'm trying to get a now unneeded mechanic based on previous itemisation changed to match the new type of itemisation.
    Last edited by Rakanor; Dec 10 2013 at 05:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakanor View Post
    It would seem you need to look at the guard. Of course guard dps in Flight isn't great, at what point was guard dps designed for strong aoe dps. Which is what Flight is mostly about. Guards have some aoe true but it would be similar to a red line champ with enough in yellow to unlock raging blades going in to flight and expecting to match that of a proper aoe traited champ.

    Also what is wrong with a cappy being able to do that now? They now have a proper tanking line so they should be able to tank.



    Again not a QQ thread... people like you just read something and if they don't like it even slightly just completely dismiss it as creep QQ without actually thinking about it

    I'm trying to get a now unneeded mechanic based on previous itemisation changed to match the new type of itemisation.
    it might not be QQ, but I can't say I care for your argument much.. Basically, you seem to be happily accepting that every other class has received a huge survivability boost, while simultaneously complaining that the historical tank classes should be nerfed because "their bloated morale pools". Why do you agree that every other class should have so much more survivability than they used to (while currently doing better dps than most could do at 85), but disagree that wrds/tanks (whose dps hasn't been increased to the same levels) should have slightly more survivability? The only reason I can think of (besides morale envy?) for your opinion is that you particularly dislike guards/wrds..

    Also, in tank build my warden currently has around 3.8k vit; dropping the morale contribution from 5 to 3 would mean a loss of around 7.5k morale, on a current morale pool of ~23k for me; a 5% boost to *that* would mean my morale-from-vit would go from 15500 to 16200. So assuming you are serious at all, please think through your proposed changes just a tiny bit more the next time you create a thread on the forum, would you?
    Last edited by rannion; Dec 10 2013 at 06:03 AM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    it might not be QQ, but I can't say I care for your argument much.. Basically, you seem to be happily accepting that every other class has received a huge survivability boost, while simultaneously complaining that the historical tank classes should be nerfed because "their bloated morale pools". Why do you agree that every other class should have so much more survivability than they used to (while currently doing better dps than most could do at 85), but disagree that wrds/tanks (whose dps hasn't been increased to the same levels) should have slightly more survivability? The only reason I can think of (besides morale envy?) for your opinion is that you particularly dislike guards/wrds..

    Also, in tank build my warden currently has around 3.8k vit; dropping the morale contribution from 5 to 3 would mean a loss of around 7.5k morale, on a current morale pool of ~23k for me; a 5% boost to *that* would mean my morale-from-vit would go from 15500 to 16200. So assuming you are serious at all, please think through your proposed changes just a tiny bit more the next time you create a thread on the forum, would you?
    First of all it would seem you failed to fully read my original post I said " Instead guards and wardens should be give +% morale in their tank lines the same way champs and captains do. " I have no intention for guards or wardens to have less morale while tanking it should be kept as it is now, they should have extra morale but only while they are tanking. The whole change to trait trees was to make classes more specialised why do you need 5 morale per vit in dps line, that isn't specialisation. Champs get 20% boost and cappies got a 25% boost with an extra 4% available through traits, don't know why you would you 5% to make an example.

    So 15500 * 1.2 = 18600
    15500 * 1.29 =19995

    Yes that is low but as I said my intention would be to allow wardens and guards to keep their levels of morale while tanking, so the additional morale from being traited for tanking will have to be looked at to find an appropriate value. Are you sure you've got your morale correct? I have ~15000 morale on champ and my vit hasn't broken 3k yet.

    I do not dislike guards or wardens. I do not happily accept every class now has so much survivability, but that's how it has been designed to be now. I hope they make things harder so that the survivability is in line with the difficulty so we don't have way too much survivability. Also not every class has much more survivability my main is a champ, with HD we lost dire need, bracing hot, 2 bubbles, one which if you built correctly was near spammable. I gladly welcomed that change I did not see why we should be able to have so much survivability while dps traited. While tank traited sure that level of survivability is great but you should only have that while tank traited. Don't get me wrong having that amount of survivability was nice but I am still glad to see it gone from our dps lines.

    From Verizal : "The biggest thing to take into account with all of this, is that there is still a good deal of balancing to be done. You can expect adjustments to mob difficulty, damage and healing output, and stat caps to account for all of the changes, both itemization-related and not. As it stands, yes, many classes have little use for defensive stats, and many people aresitting on or near a number of stat caps. This will change, however, and my intent is to have you be at a point where you will need to make conscious decisions on what you wear in order to progress through some of the harder challenges in the game. " source: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...51#post7033051

    Looks like we will see difficulty increase and the survivability we have all gained may be needed rather than making things way too easy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakanor View Post
    I do not dislike guards or wardens. I do not happily accept every class now has so much survivability, but that's how it has been designed to be now. I hope they make things harder so that the survivability is in line with the difficulty so we don't have way too much survivability. Also not every class has much more survivability my main is a champ, with HD we lost dire need, bracing hot, 2 bubbles, one which if you built correctly was near spammable. I gladly welcomed that change I did not see why we should be able to have so much survivability while dps traited. While tank traited sure that level of survivability is great but you should only have that while tank traited. Don't get me wrong having that amount of survivability was nice but I am still glad to see it gone from our dps lines.
    Why are you comparing survivability from skills to survivability from stats? The latter just means you've got some more morale to work with, the former allows you to replenish it more quickly..
    Anyway, my hunter, in as much as of a glass cannon build as I can manage, churns about about 5.5-6k ST sustained dps, without using cd skills/pots; my warden, in a similar crit-capped build, can manage somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.8-4k ST (without debuffs), aided by the fact that some of our damage bypasses mitigation. Why should both have the same morale, especially given that one is a melee class and the other is ranged?

    From Verizal : "The biggest thing to take into account with all of this, is that there is still a good deal of balancing to be done. You can expect adjustments to mob difficulty, damage and healing output, and stat caps to account for all of the changes, both itemization-related and not. As it stands, yes, many classes have little use for defensive stats, and many people aresitting on or near a number of stat caps. This will change, however, and my intent is to have you be at a point where you will need to make conscious decisions on what you wear in order to progress through some of the harder challenges in the game. " source: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...51#post7033051

    Looks like we will see difficulty increase and the survivability we have all gained may be needed rather than making things way too easy.
    Yeah; I'm not going to hold my breath, though.. Unless they intend to release the changes without any kind of beta testing, it would seem that these adjustments won't be here for a while yet.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    Why are you comparing survivability from skills to survivability from stats? The latter just means you've got some more morale to work with, the former allows you to replenish it more quickly..
    Anyway, my hunter, in as much as of a glass cannon build as I can manage, churns about about 5.5-6k ST sustained dps, without using cd skills/pots; my warden, in a similar crit-capped build, can manage somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.8-4k ST (without debuffs), aided by the fact that some of our damage bypasses mitigation. Why should both have the same morale, especially given that one is a melee class and the other is ranged?


    Yeah; I'm not going to hold my breath, though.. Unless they intend to release the changes without any kind of beta testing, it would seem that these adjustments won't be here for a while yet.
    I won't hold my breath either, but that is what they are working towards.

    Before I reply completely on those parses were they on dummies? If so you cannot accurately use it to compare dps between a primarily dot class and that of an upfront damage class. Don't forget wardens can also do ranged, on the move also which itself adds a lot of survivability. They also have a shield, which means they can block yes while dps geared your block won't be high but it's still another thing that contributes to survivability. Guards and wards both gain a 5sec debuff cure which also add more survivability.

    Why should we look at them separately each class has some degree of survivability skills. It's pointless to look at one without the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakanor View Post
    I won't hold my breath either, but that is what they are working towards.

    Before I reply completely on those parses were they on dummies? If so you cannot accurately use it to compare dps between a primarily dot class and that of an upfront damage class. Don't forget wardens can also do ranged, on the move also which itself adds a lot of survivability. They also have a shield, which means they can block yes while dps geared your block won't be high but it's still another thing that contributes to survivability. Guards and wards both gain a 5sec debuff cure which also add more survivability.

    Why should we look at them separately each class has some degree of survivability skills. It's pointless to look at one without the other.
    i haven't forgotten. In dps gear my block is 3.4%. wrd parses were from my soloing a few unmounted warbands (they're not ideal since they die so quickly, fights lasting 1-2mins, so good enough to rotate dots a few times) and from my having a go at the isengard gatekeepers (~1.5m morale total) with a lvl10 mini present to allow me to focus on dps while he healed the damage from the trolls. Hunter figures are from various skraid LTs that I took down solo (too lazy to follow rat, and everything dies anyway).
    as for wrd ranged, it's pretty useless atm because all the dots were removed (I understand some will come back with 12.1), and because you need to actually trait for it for it to actually pay off, what with the stance being rather slow.
    Last edited by rannion; Dec 10 2013 at 11:20 AM.

  20. #20
    Despite being a Guardian main I think I agree with this... 5 morale per vitality is a 'historic band-aid' that was brought in to try to prevent champ DPS tanking (along with crit defense and fervour incomming heal nerf) around mirkwood time. When it was brought in most heavy classes were at (or close to) the stat cap of 650 vit so giving the 'real' tanks an extra 2 morale per vitality helped make them more 'tanky'.

    We now have 4 classes with very viable tank specs and also no stat caps. There is really no need for this stat-exception anymore.
    Last edited by Bhoris_they_spider; Dec 10 2013 at 07:11 PM.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    Why are you comparing survivability from skills to survivability from stats? The latter just means you've got some more morale to work with, the former allows you to replenish it more quickly..
    Anyway, my hunter, in as much as of a glass cannon build as I can manage, churns about about 5.5-6k ST sustained dps, without using cd skills/pots; my warden, in a similar crit-capped build, can manage somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.8-4k ST (without debuffs), aided by the fact that some of our damage bypasses mitigation. Why should both have the same morale, especially given that one is a melee class and the other is ranged?


    Yeah; I'm not going to hold my breath, though.. Unless they intend to release the changes without any kind of beta testing, it would seem that these adjustments won't be here for a while yet.
    are these lvl 95 parses? Those warden ones seem exceptionally low, particularly if you are capping crit.

    While Assailment does indeed not match up to the DPS of recklessness, you do need to trait for recklessness to be effective too, I don't get what that other statement means.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    are these lvl 95 parses? Those warden ones seem exceptionally low, particularly if you are capping crit.

    While Assailment does indeed not match up to the DPS of recklessness, you do need to trait for recklessness to be effective too, I don't get what that other statement means.
    re #1: not sure. I'm not very good at sticking to exactly the same rotation over and over, but I don't think i'm refreshing still-ticking dots before they run out; my main issue is that I generally don't do both SoD and Desolation in the same cycle. Maybe it's due to my focus on light dots over the power attack line? I'm running with 46k pm/25% crit, reck build with light traits from blue.

    My point re #2 was mostly that you can't really switch from melee to ranged mid-fight without this strongly impacting your dps. Certainly recklessness also needs an active build to be effective, but at least in my case, I don't have a preset dedicated to assailment, since the preset unlocks are simply way overpriced.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellegos View Post
    I did look at guard as its my main and I am playing it for so long. Guard dps is not strong as you think it it. Just play it mate. You want guards to have morale like champ but not dps like a champ. You want Captains to tank in T2C content removing the need of tank. REALLY!!! Great! whats next, lets give Mini/RK more Might.

    MMO is about different roles played by different people. Their has to be someone who can tank (Guard/Warden), their has too be someone who can heal(Mini/RK), their is off tank (Captains/Champs) and off healer(Captains), their is dps(Burgler/Champions/Hunters/RK) and Buffs and Debuffs (LM/Cappy/Burgler). You cannot steal someone's role. First get your game mechanics correct and then go on something really as basic as this on which whole game has been designed.
    Of course MMO's are about different roles played by different people. What you fail to realise is that the game has changed, there are now 4 classes with dedicated tanking lines we aren't in SoA, MoM, SoM, RoI or RoR anymore. All classes can now specialise to do 3 different roles, whereas before HD all classes had one main role and they could do 1-2 more roles with varying effectiveness. Guards and wardens are no longer the only classes that are designed to fulfil the main tank role, just that they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. Once content has been scaled properly to match the itemisation, we will most likely see those strengths and weaknesses come out.

    A captain tanking t2c content isn't removing the need of a tank, the captain is the tank. You need to accept that guards and wardens aren't the only tanks anymore.

    Champ dps is not as strong as you think it is either. Sure yellow does amazing damage in aoe stiuations but you can't go comparing champ yellow with guard red. The focus of guardian red line is on ST dps.
    Rakanor R12 Reaver - Trin R11 Champion

    Please fix champions https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...lunky-champion

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellegos View Post
    I did look at guard as its my main and I am playing it for so long. Guard dps is not strong as you think it it. Just play it mate. You want guards to have morale like champ but not dps like a champ. You want Captains to tank in T2C content removing the need of tank. REALLY!!! Great! whats next, lets give Mini/RK more Might.
    If guard DPS is too low in red-line compared to other classes then we need to ask the dev to take a look at it. I don't like the idea that it is 'ok' for Guards to have sub-par DPS because we have 2 extra moral per vitality.

    Regarding roles. Guards have 2 tanking lines so it is more likely that one of these lines will be more suited to a given tanking role. Likewise champs have 2 DPS lines meaning they have a greater chance of their DPS being suited to a particular fight/encounter.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    re #1: not sure. I'm not very good at sticking to exactly the same rotation over and over, but I don't think i'm refreshing still-ticking dots before they run out; my main issue is that I generally don't do both SoD and Desolation in the same cycle. Maybe it's due to my focus on light dots over the power attack line? I'm running with 46k pm/25% crit, reck build with light traits from blue.

    My point re #2 was mostly that you can't really switch from melee to ranged mid-fight without this strongly impacting your dps. Certainly recklessness also needs an active build to be effective, but at least in my case, I don't have a preset dedicated to assailment, since the preset unlocks are simply way overpriced.
    ok, understood on #2.

    regarding #1, Spear of virtue should be your new best friend while dpsing. Now you can have your cake and eat it too (sometimes twice), so to speak.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

 

 
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