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  1. #1
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    Wardens - Issues - Threat - Warden vs Guardians

    This gonna be a long post.

    Before I start I want to say that I tested the class for many hours. I dont just went to a training dummy and came here.

    A compilation of issues listed in the forum:

    1 - Defiant Challenge ignore targets that are in the range of skill, they dont got forced and we dont earn mitigation for they.

    2 - Defiant Challenge dont forced mob in many occasions when it should, even when it affetc the target. It should make me as a leader in threat if I do not have aggro, but very often that dont
    happen. How the skill is interating with another forceds?

    3 - The legacie -10 % atack duration stance in In The Fray is not working .

    4 - The legacie +5 % light damage, very important to tank, can not be removed from legendary weapons.

    5 - The animation of the skill Forced March is bugged, the warden is braiding her legs sometimes. Also it should be auto setted when we go out of combat.

    6 - The animation of the skill to break stun is longer than the duration of most of the stuns.

    7 - The skill Steadfast does not cancel immediately stun in many cases. You use the skill, wait for the long animation and after this you get the normal animation to go out of stun.
    This take more time than do not use the skill.

    8 - Some stuns prevent us from using the skill to break stuns ... I do not know if it's WAI or bug.

    9 - The disarm is a type of wound, but it prevent us to use the skill to remove debuffs. Do not know if it's WAI or Bug

    10 - The power consumption is so great that one third of gambits is built to retrieve a power in a run that take more than 3 minutes.

    11 - The duration of buffs is so small that you can not keep them active. Devill_Egg said update 12.1 will fix this.

    12 - They said seven months ago that might would no longer work for the warden, the Beta it did not work, but when they released it still affects the physical mastery .

    13 - The last skill of determination tree, named For the Free People Tree is so useless that is not worth spending 1 point that it costs.

    14 - The description of finishers not say what you get to close the following gambits, just say more effective. Here a picture with they, but should be nice have they in the description of the
    skill.

    15 - Due to the changes in the threat gambits starting with shield (defensive) do more damage than the gambits that start with spear (offensive)... For exemplo maddening strike.

    16 - Think of the damage that a class that can attack moving and now even in melee can do in Moors having a debuff of -45 % in motion with a period almost equal to cooldown. The skill can be setted for 33 secs, full audacity reduce to 16 secs, the cooldown is 20 secs. could not check, but sounds OP.

    17 - The gambit builder remains the same for 15 sec after you left the combat and skill recovery can not clean ... need use battle preparation, then recovery. Please make recovery clean it.

    18 - Recklessness skill affects only the base of the base damage of the skill.

    19 - The top of the skill tree Assailtment Javelin of Deadly Force work only in plan grounds.

    20 - Determination The tree has a trait that if you spent 5 points give + 380 evade when using war-cry, but any 95 using 95 gear even purple have evade in the 25 cap. also in the last line of the tree we have a trait that cost 3 points and give + 288 parry and block and remove 440 evade. Are you insane?
    Please put something usefull there, like Block 1-5%, like mitigation 2-10%, like morale 1-5%

    21 - The skills Critical Strike + Steadfast + First Aid have the same image. Devill-Egg said is a bug.

    22 - The Resounding Gambit Challenge does not cause any damage if used from the battle memory. Very importante skill to tank in this new #### system. Fix it.

    23 - Wardens have no resourse to tank mobs that absorv damage as Emisarry of War, Falconer, adds of boss in Helegrod drake, OD Gortheron wing First and Second room.

    24 - The masteries do not work on Big Battles because we go out of combat when try to use them .

    25 - The bonus of parry from swords sometimes work, sometimes dont.

    26 - There is something strange about stuns and battle memory. Sometimes potency just disapear if you got stunned. sometimes the skill go to battle memory before you use it.

    27 - The description of spear lord moors set stil say that onslaught, adroit manouver or warden's triumph set 25% incomming healling. It set 12,5% now and you can satck to 25% using 2 of those skills.

    28 - Trait elegant Finisher says that Surety of Death give 2% physical mitigation. The correct is Dance of War.

    29 - The description of Surety of Death says that the skill is more powerfull if we have used war-cry and brinck of victory before, but these skills open to Desolation, they dont affect Surety of Death. Surety of Death dont have a finishing chain (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Same for Celebration, the description says that the gambit is more powerfull if we have used Persevere and maddening strike before, but that open for restoration, dont affect Celebration of Skill.

    30 - The bonus of the jewls set from Big-Battles that give us 10% chance of being healed for 10% of morale each time we receive heals do not work.

    Wardens - Threat Problem

    Test 1 - AOE Threat - Called a squish 85 to run Sword Hall 95 T2C and a strong dps class to see if I could keep aggro from the DPS and protect the squish:



    Test 2 - Survavibility - Doing Battle t1 in 6 tanking both trolls:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOJbJLzdkAI

    We can tank, I have done a lot of runs as tank.







    But we are not effective like before. Champs and RKs give us a hard time. What Wardens need:

    1 - Warden miss a skill to start fight as tank, would be nice if we had a challenge for 15 secs, then we could start with that and have time to grab mobs doing damage. DC is not a good option to start, the best gambit we have for that is Resounding Challenge.

    2 - Mobs resisting very often to our light skills. Could be nice have one threat there to reduce their resistance.

    3 - Our 3 capstone skills are uselless: For the Free People because is uselles, Recklessness because it's bugged and Javelin of Deadly Force because do low damage and work only in plan ground. Wardens are not happy with capstone skills.

    Wardens vs Guardians

    Guardians dont need damage to tank. They have a rotation with forceds that can keep mobs permanent on they, their forceds work like in the 85. (they need 1 legacie for that and they can have extra 5 secs on forceds with the new jewl sets.)

    So basically only wardens are danking by damage. Cappies have forced too, can permanent for 1 target to atack they and force 3 for 15 secs each 20 secs.

    And guardians have 3 emergency skills: guardians pledge + juggernaut + bubble. They also can stack mitigation to reach 102% physical mitigation:





    Devill_Egg or the Guardian's Dev must be crazy. One of them must be.

    Devill_Egg since guardians dont need build damage to tank, can we have our old theat system back?

    (Continue)

    Sorry for my bad english.
    Last edited by Saiffyros; Dec 07 2013 at 02:59 PM.

  2. #2
    'can we have our old theat system back?'
    this.
    I think LotRO threat management was really good because threat was not connected with damage dealt. Very realistic, very interesting in terms of game mechanics, and very fun in group action idea. Also, very fun because of challange trying to get how it works, master it while leveling first warden.
    Also, i liked that up till HD 2 main classes were so different in terms of building threat- Guard mainly using forced taunts, warden using morale leeches and threat leeches.
    Right now we have 3 classes (Grd, capt, champ) that can spam forced taunts, and wardens that are expected to cast forced taunts (it does not work).

  3. #3
    Thanks for doing the tests and putting a lot of this together. There was another thread started like this, but then issues sort of spread out into other threads so it's good to have them all in one place again. My only complaint about this list is some of it is just what you think is bad but not actually broken.

    For example JODF is not bugged. It's not a targeted skill that's why it just flies out straight, it's been this way for years. With a little planning you can still hit a ton of mobs and get a nice damage buff. Recklessness is the reason no one has been able to pull Sambrog from me since I hit 95, it's also awesome and working as intended. It would be great if Forced March would automatically go back on after combat but this is not a bug. I also have no issues with the power like you mention. Listing things like this along with actual bugs takes away from the whole list I think. I can see a Dev starting to look at this list but stopping once they see things like Forced March is broken, Recklessness doesn't work, etc, because it just looks like a list of things you don't like rather than actual bugs.
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  4. #4
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    Is a compilation of general issues, not only bugs. And it's not just me, thinks listed there have being asked since the begining of Beta for many players. But I got your point.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Saiffyros View Post
    Is a compilation of general issues, not only bugs. And it's not just me, thinks listed there have being asked since the begining of Beta for many players. But I got your point.
    Just to be clear, it's a good list I like how it's plainly written out without much discussion. That should make it easier to quickly look at, which I'm guessing is what the Devs need from stuff like this. I just don't agree with all of the personal preference things you have on there.
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  6. #6

    Post

    Exclusive gambit in blue trait line "Shield Tactics" have 10s stun immunity, but not daze and knock down immunity. Please can you add this issue to your list? Warden before revamp with 3 equipped traits in Way of the Shield had this immunity and now we lost it.

  7. #7
    seems that i am the only one who thinks a 10m radius is too small for our only force taunt?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcgiver View Post
    seems that i am the only one who thinks a 10m radius is too small for our only force taunt?
    The radius is fine, imo.. What I want to know is whether it can be resisted, and what we can do when this happens, given that at least guards have other options when that happens, whereas we do not. (It is especially interesting to note that blue guards also have a trait set that makes it impossible for the targets of their shield attacks to bpe their attacks. iow, they have no need to add any finesse to their builds, whereas we do, because so many of our attacks are light-based, and resistable.)
    And why can't we have a damage-less ranged skill any longer, considering that -- in blue traits -- Fray the Edge (now a Single Target 15s force taunt on 10s cd) now has a 50m range..

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    I have to say this is one of the best posts I have ever seen, the OP sums up everything I have been feeling when playing the Warden after Helm's Deep has been launched and excellent videos *bows to Saiffyros*
    There are so many, many things that needs to be fixed with the Warden it's unbelievable. I'm not someone who complains a lot or speak ill of Turbine, in fact usually I support them but this time I feel I have to voice my opinions.

    How the people in charge at Tubine could allow Helm's Deep to be released with so much unfinished work on the Warden is beyond my understanding and I wonder if the different class development teams communicate at all with each other since some classes are much more finished than others (i.e. Guardians and Champions). I can't stress enough how badly I think this Warden revamp has been executed, and what were they thinking when some classes can chain spam forced aggro skills?

    I mean, if I performed this badly at my work I would definitely get told so by both my boss and the customers. I know things will be fixed eventually but I despise the fact that we now probably have to go months with a class that is gutted and not even half as fun to play as it used to be.

    I can understand that Turbine felt they had to change things for Lotro to make it more viable in the long run and I agree with that, change is often good. But if you change things make sure they work! People are paying to play a game that functions properly not a half-functional buggy one.
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  10. #10
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    Doubts

    Have anyone managed to receive the bonus of 2% physical mitigation from Surety of Death? It says Surety of Death is more powerfull if we used war-cry and brinck of victory before, but war-cry and brinck of victory is the sequence for desolation as finisher. I tried war-cry + brinck of victory + surety of death, nothing happens. Any clue?



    Edit: nvm, I got it. Where say Surety of Death just read Dance of War. Anyway, what we get for use war-cry + brinck of victory + surety of death? The description says that it's more powerfull if we use those gambits before.
    Last edited by Saiffyros; Dec 06 2013 at 01:44 AM.

  11. #11
    Well that list doesn't make me want to buy HD and level my warden :\

  12. #12
    is it worth running 3 gambits in series to get a finishing effect that lasts like 10 seconds? I don't think its worth it unless I have a reason like getting all teirs of heals running or getting all 3 block buffs. Frankly finishers are a joke to me. With a 10 second duration its a minor bonus at best, which with present content we don't even need to succeed. The annoying part to me is it forces me to run my gambits lowest to highest which is bad. I prefer for example to run my heals highest to lowest as I would rather have the biggest heal first and lower heals later.
    Welleg - brandywine, Kelleg/Gelleg - Landroval
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by gelleg View Post
    is it worth running 3 gambits in series to get a finishing effect that lasts like 10 seconds? I don't think its worth it unless I have a reason like getting all teirs of heals running or getting all 3 block buffs. Frankly finishers are a joke to me. With a 10 second duration its a minor bonus at best, which with present content we don't even need to succeed. The annoying part to me is it forces me to run my gambits lowest to highest which is bad. I prefer for example to run my heals highest to lowest as I would rather have the biggest heal first and lower heals later.
    The only one that is worth it is the restoration line. The rest, meh at best.
    Beleag, Warden - Saelmundi, Rune-keeper - Nimerdale, Champion - Haldoun, Captain

  14. #14
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    Great write-up, OP. Agree wholeheartedly.
    Aethelbehrt ~ Captain of Landroval
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by gelleg View Post
    is it worth running 3 gambits in series to get a finishing effect that lasts like 10 seconds? I don't think its worth it unless I have a reason like getting all teirs of heals running or getting all 3 block buffs. Frankly finishers are a joke to me. With a 10 second duration its a minor bonus at best, which with present content we don't even need to succeed. The annoying part to me is it forces me to run my gambits lowest to highest which is bad. I prefer for example to run my heals highest to lowest as I would rather have the biggest heal first and lower heals later.
    I say just remove the 10s altogether. Make it one of those buffs like we get on a War Steed. It stays active until out of combat for 9 seconds or consumed by the finisher Gambit. This way we could prepare finishers for when we need them most, don't need to use them immediately, and we don't have take an ENTIRE TEN SECONDS just to play out a chain of Gambits for the finisher effects.
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  16. #16
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    Update 12.1

    Update 12.1 is on beta

    Let's check what was fixed from our original list:

    1 - Defiant Challenge ignore targets that are in the range of skill, they dont got forced and we dont earn mitigation for they. By what Devill_Egg said it now affect 10 targets and have 10m radius range. (Fixed)

    2 - Defiant Challenge dont forced mob in many occasions when it should, even when it affetc the target. It should make me as a leader in threat if I do not have aggro, but very often that dont
    happen. How the skill is interating with another forceds? It force now and work in Big-Battles, so we have a resource to tank mobs there. But only 5 secs each 20 sec. Guardians stil have 3 challenges (1 single target) with duration of 5 sec each, 10 sec with the set of jewls from Big-Battle. So they can do much better there than us. (Fixed)

    4 - The legacie +5 % light damage, very important to tank, can not be removed from legendary weapons. (Fixed)

    6 - The animation of the skill to break stun is longer than the duration of most of the stuns. (Fixed, the skill that remove stuns received the same animation for use a power pot and the skill to remove debuffs the same animation for use a morale pot)

    7 - The skill Steadfast does not cancel immediately stun in many cases. You use the skill, wait for the long animation and after this you get the normal animation to go out of stun.
    This take more time than do not use the skill. (Fixed)

    11 - The duration of buffs is so small that you can not keep them active. Devill_Egg said update 12.1 will fix this. (increased by 4 secs... let's be nice with her and say fixed, but...)

    23 - Wardens have no resourse to tank mobs that absorv damage as Emisarry of War, Falconer, adds of boss in Helegrod drake, OD Gortheron wing First and Second room. (Now DC force for 5 sec, not 100% thought, let's be nice and say fixed, but...)


    Issues that remain.


    1 - The legacie -10 % atack duration stance in In The Fray is not working.

    2 - The animation of the skill Forced March is bugged, the warden is braiding her legs sometimes. Also it should be auto setted when we go out of combat.

    3 - Some stuns prevent us from using the skill to break stuns ... I do not know if it's WAI or bug.

    4 - The disarm is a type of wound, but it prevent us to use the skill to remove debuffs. Do not know if it's WAI or Bug

    5 - The power consumption is so great that one third of gambits is built to retrieve a power in a run that take more than 3 minutes. (it's not a bug, but stil an issue)

    6 - They said seven months ago that might would no longer work for the warden, the Beta it did not work, but when they released it still affects the physical mastery .

    7 - The last skill of determination tree, named For the Free People Tree is so useless that is not worth spending 1 point that it costs.

    8 - The description of finishers not say what you get to close the following gambits, just say more effective. Here a picture with they, but should be nice have they in the description of the
    skill.

    9 - Due to the changes in the threat gambits starting with shield (defensive) do more damage than the gambits that start with spear (offensive)... For exemplo maddening strike.

    10 - Think of the damage that a class that can attack moving and now even in melee can do in Moors having a debuff of -45 % in motion with a period almost equal to cooldown. The skill can be setted for 33 secs, full audacity reduce to 16 secs, the cooldown is 20 secs. could not check, but sounds OP.

    11 - The gambit builder remains the same for 15 sec after you left the combat and skill recovery can not clean ... need use battle preparation, then recovery. Please make recovery clean it.

    12 - Recklessness skill affects only the base of the base damage of the skill.

    13 - The top of the skill tree Assailtment Javelin of Deadly Force work only in plan grounds.

    14 - Determination The tree has a trait that if you spent 5 points give + 380 evade when using war-cry, but any 95 using 95 gear even purple have evade in the 25 cap. also in the last line of the tree we have a trait that cost 3 points and give + 288 parry and block and remove 440 evade. Are you insane?
    Please put something usefull there, like Block 1-5%, like mitigation 2-10%, like morale 1-5%

    15 - The skills Critical Strike + Steadfast + First Aid have the same image. Devill-Egg said is a bug.

    16 - The Resounding Gambit Challenge does not cause any damage if used from the battle memory. Very importante skill to tank in this new #### system. Fix it.

    17 - The masteries do not work on Big Battles because we go out of combat when try to use them .

    18 - The bonus of parry from swords sometimes work, sometimes dont.

    19 - There is something strange about stuns and battle memory. Sometimes potency just disapear if you got stunned. sometimes the skill go to battle memory before you use it.

    20 - The description of spear lord moors set stil say that onslaught, adroit manouver or warden's triumph set 25% incomming healling. It set 12,5% now and you can satck to 25% using 2 of those skills.

    21 - Trait elegant Finisher says that Surety of Death give 2% physical mitigation. The correct is Dance of War.

    22 - The description of Surety of Death says that the skill is more powerfull if we have used war-cry and brinck of victory before, but these skills open to Desolation, they dont affect Surety of Death. Surety of Death dont have a finishing chain (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Same for Celebration, the description says that the gambit is more powerfull if we have used Persevere and maddening strike before, but that open for restoration, dont affect Celebration of Skill.

    23 - The bonus of the jewls set from Big-Battles that give us 10% chance of being healed for 10% of morale each time we receive heals do not work. (could not check in the beta, because could not copy my character)

    Follow pictures of some issues listed, new duration of self-buffs and the new armor set of Moors fro Warden ( Everything here is subject to change before reaching the live servers.):



    Last edited by Saiffyros; Dec 07 2013 at 03:00 PM.

 

 

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