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  1. #1

    Another BB thread :)

    Yes, I know there are countless threads about BB. Anyway I need to get this of my chest.
    So first of all, I ´m not a power player. In the past I used to be in a kinship that was raiding frequently.
    I still enjoy instances in random groups. Small an big ones but I´m not completely focused on just raids.
    In the first place I was a bit dissapointed about BB beeing the new Endgame content but I thought let´s give it
    a try. From the Helms Deep storyline it made sence to me to experience this huge battle in some other sort of way
    than traditional instances. So I gave it a try the last two days.

    I´m sorry but I have to admit, this is the most boring thing
    I played, ever. Really I ´m standing there shooting trash mobs for like 10 minutes that are basically allready dead
    because they´re getting killed by npc´s faster than i can get out a shoot. And I ´m a hunter, so how boring must that
    be for melee classes ? If I´m not killing mobs I´m standing there for.. well it feels like hours clicking on ladders waiting
    for a timer to finish.
    I played games like "lotr:conquest" or "lotr:return of the king" that also contain big battles in some way
    and those were actually fun ! But what the heck is this.. seriously ? To be honest I was allready bored when playing them the first time.
    Also those events or quests inbetween don´t make it much better. It´s just shooting other mobs or maybe carry around some chests.
    After two days I really have no motivation left to spend more time on BBs. Grinding Hythbold is more fun than this.
    Sorry, but you really messed it up. It´s cr** ! Just my opinion.

  2. #2
    If you've read the other threads then you should have realised that your job in these battles is not to kill the enemy yourself, that's what the NPC soldiers are for. Your job is to organise the defences: lay traps, order the captains, deal with the side-quests, repair barricades and flags, fire the siege weapons, etc. The only time you really need to pew pew the enemy is for some of the side-quests, e.g. protecting the horses on Helm's Dike and maybe to help the soldiers if there's nothing else needed.

    If you still find that boring fair enough, but I'd recommend giving them a try especially in a group as that's a lot more fun than trying them solo.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrideColossus View Post
    If you've read the other threads then you should have realised that your job in these battles is not to kill the enemy yourself, that's what the NPC soldiers are for. Your job is to organise the defences: lay traps, order the captains, deal with the side-quests, repair barricades and flags, fire the siege weapons, etc. The only time you really need to pew pew the enemy is for some of the side-quests, e.g. protecting the horses on Helm's Dike and maybe to help the soldiers if there's nothing else needed.

    If you still find that boring fair enough, but I'd recommend giving them a try especially in a group as that's a lot more fun than trying them solo.
    I think he has realized it, and made it clear that clicking ladders is even more boring. Try it in a group? What's difference in a group? You still do the same thing as you do in solo, trying to kill mobs before the NPCs do, clicking objects. How that could be more interesting? The only different thing is there are more people around doing the same thing as you do.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrideColossus View Post
    If you've read the other threads then you should have realised that your job in these battles is not to kill the enemy yourself, that's what the NPC soldiers are for.
    Unless of course you wanted to play the role of Vanguard, then it is very much your job to kill the enemy yourself.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by StrideColossus View Post
    If you've read the other threads then you should have realised that your job in these battles is not to kill the enemy yourself, that's what the NPC soldiers are for. Your job is to organise the defences: lay traps, order the captains, deal with the side-quests, repair barricades and flags, fire the siege weapons, etc. The only time you really need to pew pew the enemy is for some of the side-quests, e.g. protecting the horses on Helm's Dike and maybe to help the soldiers if there's nothing else needed.

    If you still find that boring fair enough, but I'd recommend giving them a try especially in a group as that's a lot more fun than trying them solo.
    Well I ´ll give it another try in bigger groups. But I have little hope it´s more fun. Endgamecontent to me means you leveled your class character to max level
    and than you want to use all the stuff you leveled for. With BB in the way you described it, you basically will just use a fraction of your charcter abilities and a lot
    of new stuff that is in my opinion boring and is in no way connected to the class you choose. In a traditional Instance a healer had to heal, a DD made damage
    and so on. Now you lay traps, build ballistas and stuff like this. This is stuff you don´t really need a class for. Everyone can do it. I wouldn´t even complain about
    that, but I can´t find any excitment so far in these "Big Battles".

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiritier View Post
    I think he has realized it, and made it clear that clicking ladders is even more boring. Try it in a group? What's difference in a group? You still do the same thing as you do in solo, trying to kill mobs before the NPCs do, clicking objects. How that could be more interesting? The only different thing is there are more people around doing the same thing as you do.
    ^ This.


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  7. #7
    I agree with them being boring. My biggest problem with them is it just seems like another way Turbine is designing content for us to play while not playing our class.

    I don't feel like a Champ when I play in BB. Just like when they introduced MC, I didn't feel like a Champ. I would like to see content that allows me to play the class I've been playing for 5 plus years and not some mini game.

  8. #8
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    why was my BB thread deleted? i got replies in my email, but the thread is gone. i dont see how my thread broke any rules.

    it was titled:

    Players being turned away from BB Raids because they aren't experienced enough?'

  9. #9
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    I agree, completely boring (especially Helm's Dike -- "gee, let's make the very first one that you are forced to do also involve the most mind-numbingly long waits between events, and even then those events are bugged") and designed in a way to make your own character's skills pointless. My main is a burglar -- and burglars got hosed with Mounted Combat and now we are getting hosed again with Epic Battles. I get that it is tough to design instances that allow all classes to contribute equally, but I don't think that the solution should have been to create, in essence, three NEW classes, and force people to grind up an entirely new set of skills in order to participate fully.

    One side-effect of making the Epic Battles available to all is that, unlike in previous expansions when only raiders were likely to (immediately) access and complain about the new instance cluster, now the same opportunity is available to a wider range of players. Before, I wouldn't have cared all that much if a new raid seemed to be bugged or designed poorly (Draigoch) because it wasn't likely to matter to me. But now, with Epic Battles being the primary repeatable endgame content at the moment, I am feeling much more pessimistic about my enjoyment from this expansion.

  10. #10
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    The difference with the group content is your class role is all the more critical.

    Tanking is vitally important in the raid. Without a good capable tank, expect to completely fail in short order (not even earning iron). Healing is critical, not just of your tanks, but also of NPCs and banners if your DPS and tanks aren't up to snuff. DPS becomes much more important than in the solo/smaller versions, as the soldiers can't handle it all. Leadership and strategy, things completely irrelevant in old style raids, are imperative here, as different resources need to be applied in different areas at different times. Note how few kins have posted platinum completions? As compared to previous raids that would be completed during beta?

    A lot of prejudging going on. It's interesting how the folks who have played bunches of Battles continue to develop and grow and enjoy them, while those who haven't, take a first look and assume the rest/others are all bad.

    Don't get me wrong, obviously they aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. Your available strategies/options only increases as you rank up and improve your character. Folks not interested in growing will never see that. But at least they aren't the mindless step by step instances of old, where you had no choice but to do the exact same thing you did before. They have more re-playability.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    The difference with the group content is your class role is all the more critical.

    Tanking is vitally important in the raid. Without a good capable tank, expect to completely fail in short order (not even earning iron). Healing is critical, not just of your tanks, but also of NPCs and banners if your DPS and tanks aren't up to snuff. DPS becomes much more important than in the solo/smaller versions, as the soldiers can't handle it all. Leadership and strategy, things completely irrelevant in old style raids, are imperative here, as different resources need to be applied in different areas at different times. Note how few kins have posted platinum completions? As compared to previous raids that would be completed during beta?

    A lot of prejudging going on. It's interesting how the folks who have played bunches of Battles continue to develop and grow and enjoy them, while those who haven't, take a first look and assume the rest/others are all bad.

    Don't get me wrong, obviously they aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. Your available strategies/options only increases as you rank up and improve your character. Folks not interested in growing will never see that. But at least they aren't the mindless step by step instances of old, where you had no choice but to do the exact same thing you did before. They have more re-playability.
    I tried Helm's Dike last night for the first time (solo on an 85 upconverted to 95 hunter) and I was pretty lost. I don't understand how exactly you level up your character to be better and I was kinda lost. One of the side missions was stopping trolls from destroying a statue, but I never saw trolls nor a statue, despite running up and down the entire length of the dike on my horse.

    Others I could do like telling the archers to fire at rock carriers, but there was just no easy way to tell where I was needed. I lost two officers and all their soldiers without even knowing they were in trouble.
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  12. #12
    Not really my cup of tea either. I do appreciate on some level. Deep down here where you can't see it that turbine tried to do something different. Not sure what they can do to make it more interesting to folks like me. They did at least manage to make it so that we none NPC's that is PC's have to participate. At least in the one and two mans. Have not done 12 mans. I imagine there is room for a couple two three to go afk in those and not really make a difference.

    In the solo and 2 mans the PC has to stay active. Which is a pretty good trick of balancing things. I mean what do you start out with, 40+ NPC's and just one you. The fact that the instance does not reliably just complete itself without imput from the PC is an accomplishment. Especially if you look at the fact that players of different abilities can also finish it. How do they make it so no one can just sit and watch but even poorly equipped and poorly played toons can avoid being over run.

    Having given turbine its due, or is that do, I will say again I so far am not a fan of these things. They are a set amount of time so no rushing to finish it, and if you get a call or something else calls you away there is no pausing it so I'm really not liking that aspect of it. Need a pause feature for people that have outside world interuptions. Just click pause and the game world freezes. PC's can't move and heal up or load cats, NPC's stop. Everything stops. This would make it much better.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Tanking is vitally important in the raid. Without a good capable tank, expect to completely fail in short order (not even earning iron).
    False. It is possible to get many nice medals, including platinum, without a single tank. In Beta till the last round the threat system in Battles was not working at all, so tanking there did not exist. Despite that many quests were successfully completed by determined pugs and no changes to the quest mechanics happened since then.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Note how few kins have posted platinum completions? As compared to previous raids that would be completed during beta?
    There is no interest in reporting about completion of this raid. I had a platinum medal on the main quest several days before the topic with someone bragging about such medal appeared here. There are even pugs doing these raids successfully. All quests of this raid were completed in beta as well by people from the various servers. The two quests which were seriously bugged in Beta are still bugged in exactly same way on live.

    If you are lucky with the order of the possible quests and do not get the bugged ones, you get platinum medal for the main quest in the Deeping Wall raid really easy.

    I do enjoy the Deeping Wall raid, but seriously... Completing challenges in scaled to lvl95 OD took more time and felt harder than this battle.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasa View Post
    False.
    I don't think that word means what you think it means. ;-) Also, redefining the circumstance doesn't help with communication. Those who play tanks will find their contribution very important--there's a reason GLFF calls request tanks and healers and folks switch to tanking classes if the raid is short. It's not like old instances were a group of DPS is mostly desired.

    In Beta...
    Ah, that explains it. Sorry, I was sharing relevant current info regarding live gameplay, not obsolete stuff that has been fixed and changed.

    There is no interest in reporting about completion of this raid.
    And yet, multiple threads do.

    So far I have yet to experience a bugged side quest in the raid, and there's none listed in the Battle bug thread (mostly in the small fellowship), and have earned various medals for the raid side quests successfully, so I'm sorry but have evidence against that claim too.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Ah, that explains it. Sorry, I was sharing relevant current info regarding live gameplay, not obsolete stuff that has been fixed and changed.
    I am not sure what you mean here.

    I completed most quests in the Deeping Wall raid on live server. Multiple times by now. But since I did complete them in Beta as well, I am certain that the quests are exactly the same with same bugs. And I am certain that people who were doing this raid in beta bring their knowledge and experience to the servers where they play. Do you need examples of bugged quests? A Flanking Foe quest (escort Gimli) gives only silver medal even if you follow all objectives and keep all cadets/labourers alive. Vandal's in the Tower - the merit drops to 0 as soon as even one supply is destroyed and in this case the quest completes with an iron medal even if most of other objectives were done well. By starting on the Eastern Wall you eliminate a chance of getting either of the two quests mentioned above, and the remaining possible quests are really easy to complete for platinum even for new players. I saw it done in pugs on live.

    There are smaller bugs as well such as: the most western rock drop on the western wall is still not working. It functions well in the duo battle, but in the raid it does not touch the orc's army.

    I am not sure why these bugs are not mentioned on the forum. Maybe people are too tired of complaining? Maybe they are simply enjoying the parts which are working fine? It was all discussed in beta and I am /bugging them all now just in case if the fix for it is not pending yet.
    Last edited by Lunasa; Dec 02 2013 at 05:39 PM.
    Ishtarien - Captain
    Ishtarel - Hunter / Kadarka - Minstrel
    Ishtaridas - LRM 105 / Ishtari - RNK 105 / Ishti - BRG 105 / Cabernetta - GRD 105 / Medovinus - BRN 105
    The Mellowship || Eldar -> Evernight

  16. #16
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    I don't mind them so much. I don't find heals to do anything much at all (though now that I hear you can heal banners, a bug?, I'm going to try that as repair seems pointless) but mostly because they have so much morale to heal that they don't budge much unless you're a dedicated single-target healer (ie blue traited minstrel instead of red traited captain).

    Tanking does help, even in solo/duo! However it means you have to use forced taunts. This means you can keep trolls from getting to the back row. Overall I think someone wanting to do tanking can specialize in Vanguard and be effective; then in a duo have the other person as engineer. AoE definitely helps out if wanting to do direct damage, so champions will be much happier than hunters.

    I think the crowd control abilities may help; ie, lore masters toss down sticky tar to slow the enemies, which can end up being more effective than direct damage. For captain I leave the pet on aggressive mode, and lore masters can do the same thing. Hunters traited for traps will be effective here too.

    Sure they may get old over time, and the first run throughs are very confusing. But not so awful as some claim, unless this is just leftover disappointment at getting the wrong Christmas gift. Yes there is some waiting but that's the time you reset all your rock traps, aim catapults, repair things. I certainly don't see them as worse than skirmishes, some of which were very tedious but they seemed somewhat popular even in raids (sure that's because of bribing with gear, but that's true for all raids snce once the loot rewards dry up then the raids dry up to a trickle also).

    The real snag I think is with solo players. They will have a very difficult time earning trait points which means that the solo epic battles will remain difficult for them. Sure, technically you can get 120 points just with solo epic battles but it will be difficult to do so without a duo. I suspect many will get give up in frustration before 30 points.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasa View Post
    I am not sure why these bugs are not mentioned on the forum.
    I suspect most players may not realize these are bugs, especially if never being in beta they don't know what it supposed to happen.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    I suspect many will get give up in frustration before 30 points.
    You nailed it. 28 points, six runs (two on Helms Dike, one each on the other four), very little motivation left to continue.

    Totally agree with the OP that Hytbold/Survivors grinds were way better. They were incredibly boring, but the dailies were fast and the grinds had clearly defined end points. Big Battles are ~30 minutes of boredom (2-3 times as much as a round of 85 dailies) interspersed with fairly brief moments of frustration. Each. Potentially 5/day, or 8/day if you play at times that your server has grouping activity. And since the loot is random, there's no telling how long you'll be doing it before you get the pieces you want.

  19. #19
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    *nods, I agree, I'd only seen the vandals quest twice, and nothing was apparent that caused me to /bug (which I'm fanatical about).

    I've only seen the Gimli quest a couple times, and each time Legolas has been killed (wherever he might've been), so the raid failed/aborted right there.

    That is one of the ironies having so much variety in one raid space, radically different experiences on different runs, love it. (This coming from someone who absolutely loathes and refuses to do defensive skirms. Of course those just feel like I'm having my chain yanked, whereas this has variety and choice.)
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LethalLethality View Post
    I tried Helm's Dike last night for the first time (solo on an 85 upconverted to 95 hunter) and I was pretty lost. I don't understand how exactly you level up your character to be better and I was kinda lost. One of the side missions was stopping trolls from destroying a statue, but I never saw trolls nor a statue, despite running up and down the entire length of the dike on my horse.

    Others I could do like telling the archers to fire at rock carriers, but there was just no easy way to tell where I was needed. I lost two officers and all their soldiers without even knowing they were in trouble.
    I like BB so far, but these two above comments hit the nail on the head - 1) more in-game feedback where to go in BB, 2) for heaven's sake, don't let all those officers die without giving us a minute to get there please!
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Howell View Post
    You nailed it. 28 points, six runs (two on Helms Dike, one each on the other four), very little motivation left to continue.

    Totally agree with the OP that Hytbold/Survivors grinds were way better. They were incredibly boring, but the dailies were fast and the grinds had clearly defined end points. Big Battles are ~30 minutes of boredom (2-3 times as much as a round of 85 dailies) interspersed with fairly brief moments of frustration. Each. Potentially 5/day, or 8/day if you play at times that your server has grouping activity. And since the loot is random, there's no telling how long you'll be doing it before you get the pieces you want.
    Agree.......I've given up now...the desire to log in now is fading fast.
    “Over the field rang his clear voice calling: ‘Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world’s ending!”

  22. #22
    I've played the first and a bit of the 2nd part of the so called "BB" and I'm not gonna do any more of these boring upscale defensive skirmishes.
    And throwing in TROLLS in the frigging battle is just ...

  23. #23
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    I actually like the BB's, it's a different change of pace from the traditional sk/raid. Sure it doesn't allow me to use my character in it's traditional class role, but there are other things I can do to get me fill of haeling/DPS/tanking. However for me the most disappointing aspect is only 1 BB is 6 man and 1 is 12. I enjoy the larger groups as the battles tend to me more epic and the actions/reactions of others in responding to changing situations. All future BB maps should be fellowship or raid eligible. That would help with the amount of end game content and keep people somewhat occupied.
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  24. #24
    I'd personally enjoy BBs far more if Turbine could

    1) fix the major bugs and related issues (I'm looking at you, Helm's Dike west flank!)
    2) make them a little less long, time-wise

    I'd also like them to have much better in-instance instructions on the side objectives so that first timers aren't struck full in the face by a wall of "huh?" when the side quests come up.
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  25. #25
    Defend the Western Island! GOGOGOGOGO!



    ~hits death wall trying to get there cause I had to stop for 1.5 seconds to heal soldiers while leaving them to fight alone~


    I love running down hallways getting to my destination to instadie in an invisible wall of death that I can't see cause that's pretty realistic...

    ./sarcasm off
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