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  1. #26
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    Hi.

    Even as a guardian, I have issue in tanking. I no longer threat opponent, I just force taunt them, and it's so dull. Now, I can solo tank durchest juste by spamming frey the edge (10 sec cd for a 15 sec force taunt).

    When I have to tank more than 5 mobs... the only skills I can use is Challenge (13 targets, 30 sec CD, 15 sec force taunt (20 sec very soon with the jewellry).

    What I want to say is : If guardian didn't have force taunt, we would have been in the same position as wardens... so tanking is broken atm. I tank better in red line really... just DPS with a force taunt there and here and you are good.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    very first line, but you've changed it since.

    just that spec and tree are differant things. was just making sure you weren't.
    As I've said before, "With some well specc'd DPS' refers to the DDs in his group, not to himself. All he did with the edit was to add the first line, he didn't change anything else.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    As I've said before, "With some well specc'd DPS' refers to the DDs in his group, not to himself. All he did with the edit was to add the first line, he didn't change anything else.
    ohhhhh. I misread then. sorry.
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  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Drglory View Post
    Mayhap there is a problem, a bugged trait, or something of that nature. It was not my intent to demean the ability of a good tank. All I can say is "I" am not experiencing problems, and this leads me to believe the class is not having problems.

    Now, JLotro, you mentioned that you have 1700 Might. I have 162 Might (With +70 store bought). Where is all this from? Could this be causing the difference?

    Also in regards to a 85 First age verses a 95 Second age. Both with three crystals.

    First age sword (85): 157.1
    Second age sword (95): 226.1
    Drglory, I chose gear that gets my might and agility about the same for tanking. This gets
    my block up where I want it to be and has other positives as well. The only way that I can see
    might or agility affecting threat is how they relate to our physical mastery. Now, I can drop
    my might and raise my agility but end up with the same physical mastery, SO.... I can not
    fathom how higher might would reduce my threat. (?)

    Re the sword, yes I see if you put crystals in the lv95 it is definitely better. I'm not sure
    what effect that 226 number has on our AOE threat. Any idea? Have you tried some EOB's
    with both?

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    Drglory, I chose gear that gets my might and agility about the same for tanking. This gets
    my block up where I want it to be and has other positives as well. The only way that I can see
    might or agility affecting threat is how they relate to our physical mastery. Now, I can drop
    my might and raise my agility but end up with the same physical mastery, SO.... I can not
    fathom how higher might would reduce my threat. (?)

    Re the sword, yes I see if you put crystals in the lv95 it is definitely better. I'm not sure
    what effect that 226 number has on our AOE threat. Any idea? Have you tried some EOB's
    with both?
    My thought process was that as Agility is our primary stat, perhaps they left the contribution from Might off our threat.

    Regarding AOE damage, I have seen some increase in damage. About 100 (From 800-900/tick to 900-1000/tick) or so, depending on mob resistance to light damage, though it is possible that it could be related to some other source than the weapons.

    I am assuming that your skill is above par, so the problem should lie elsewhere.

    Perhaps it would aid investigation if you posted your tanking trait setup.
    Beleag, Warden - Saelmundi, Rune-keeper - Nimerdale, Champion - Haldoun, Captain

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drglory View Post
    Regarding AOE damage, I have seen some increase in damage. About 100 (From 800-900/tick to 900-1000/tick) or so, depending on mob resistance to light damage, though it is possible that it could be related to some other source than the weapons.
    Since you appear to have missed my earlier post, let me quote myself:
    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    The strength of all light-based attacks is not determined by main-hand (or javelin) damage, but merely by level, traits, class items, legacies and debuffs. The DPS value of your weaponry only matters to spear-based gambits, which are hardly ideal for AoE tanking. (The only viable option there might be traiting for spear-sweep etc., but the range on the sweep doesn't seem that big, so as soon as a group of mobs is split you're 'in trouble'.)
    iow, unless you want higher fist evade/shield mastery block/etc., or the new incrementally upgraded relics, you can just keep your 85 tanking weapons.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    Since you appear to have missed my earlier post, let me quote myself:

    iow, unless you want higher fist evade/shield mastery block/etc., or the new incrementally upgraded relics, you can just keep your 85 tanking weapons.
    The higher DPS 95 weapons will also affect the entire 3-1 line as well as Surety of Death, as these all have a "% weapon damage" component to them. This might not be a huge deal for AoE situations, unless of course you are cycling through mobs with your 3-1 line.

    The balance patch can't come soon enough IMO. They are either going to have to tone down dps relative to threat or increase the 300% threat boost even higher. Warden dps parses seem to be around 6000dps traited recklessness which would just barely hold threat against a 17k dps champ if it were possible traited blue (which it isn't)

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by danno8 View Post
    17k dps champ
    Where are these numbers from? Most of the champs I see are complaining about how little DPS they are doing. There is even a thread in the champ forums comparing their DPS to ours (we are winning).
    Beleag, Warden - Saelmundi, Rune-keeper - Nimerdale, Champion - Haldoun, Captain

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    You can just keep your 85 tanking weapons.
    I have to disagree with this one. Sorry Rannion. Since aggro is now DPS based, and my level 85 SA base DPS is 2/3 of my 95 TA DPS, not counting the legacies or even using any of the stats below the top line, it means that even my auto-attacks generate 50% more aggro as a 95. Cant show you tho, as I deconned the SA last night. It was. a hard decision, but seeing that was what threw me over the edge.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    I have to disagree with this one. Sorry Rannion. Since aggro is now DPS based, and my level 85 SA base DPS is 2/3 of my 95 TA DPS, not counting the legacies or even using any of the stats below the top line, it means that even my auto-attacks generate 50% more aggro as a 95. Cant show you tho, as I deconned the SA last night. It was. a hard decision, but seeing that was what threw me over the edge.
    It affects auto-attacks and spear line gambits, and indeed (as was pointed out) the mainhand damage component. But even with the somewhat lower mh damage component, I'm fine holding aggro ST with my 85 tanking weapon. What I have trouble with is AoE aggro. And for aoe, mh base dps is irrelevant; only legacies and legacy points matter. Feel free to disagree, but I'm not at all convinced it's worth the bother.
    Last edited by rannion; Dec 01 2013 at 02:25 PM.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Drglory View Post
    Where are these numbers from? Most of the champs I see are complaining about how little DPS they are doing. There is even a thread in the champ forums comparing their DPS to ours (we are winning).
    From this quote in the thread earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by JTollers View Post
    Perhaps it's your players and not you? I first hand witnessed this, and Dradous does not have aggro holding issues. He 12 man tanks Saruman, has tanked every raid pre HD with no issues in threat or survivability, one of our Champs Mblue has been putting out 17k DPS post update and was doing 4k pre update. The warden is a mess, and watching one of the best tanks I have played with in 6 years struggle like I saw today was frustrating...it honestly reconfirmed many of the feelings I was having going into this expansion.

    I dropped one skill, and he lost threat. That is just silly. This was ToO and not BG. There are no threat debuff issues in Lightning Wing.

    Actually you quoted this quote in the very next post, hehe. I mean if champs are truly only close to us in dps then the 300% agro should easily put us way out in front. But that does not seem to be the case?

  12. #37
    Well I'd like to see that to believe it. To me Champ parses have always been wildly inconsistent (I played a Champ second to my Warden). That doesn't mean bad, it's just the nature of a class made for AOE. If you have a huge pull and all AOE skills can be used, and the mobs die after your initial rotation, well yeah you're going to see crazy high DPS numbers. In more realistic situations the DPS is usually far less. Unless I can see consistent footage of a Champ reliably hitting something like 17k DPS I'm going to chalk that off to an ideal type of pull.
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    Well I'd like to see that to believe it. To me Champ parses have always been wildly inconsistent (I played a Champ second to my Warden). That doesn't mean bad, it's just the nature of a class made for AOE. If you have a huge pull and all AOE skills can be used, and the mobs die after your initial rotation, well yeah you're going to see crazy high DPS numbers. In more realistic situations the DPS is usually far less. Unless I can see consistent footage of a Champ reliably hitting something like 17k DPS I'm going to chalk that off to an ideal type of pull.
    After perusing the champ forum I think the original poster may have meant 17k crits AoE or some such, not sustained AoE, which would make more sense to me also.

    LM's look to be able to do around 4000 dps and if champs are only on par with our dps specs at around 5000 dps, then as a tank we should only need to do around 1500-2000 dps AoE in determination spec. That seems pretty easy to me.

    Is this just another "wait 5-10s before attacking" L2P thing people have to get use to again? Without the almighty EoB and threat leaches, maybe.

    I have not had a chance to group yet Post HD, so I can't speak through experience.

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by danno8 View Post
    Actually you quoted this quote in the very next post, hehe. I mean if champs are truly only close to us in dps then the 300% agro should easily put us way out in front. But that does not seem to be the case?
    What I intended to impart was where are we getting this number. I know JLotro tossed that 17k number out there, but that is not what I am seeing from other champs. If we are talking about a 4 second blenderfest (10 targets), I estimate that I could pull off around 7500 DPS. Spread that out to 10 seconds and I could still pull around 5k.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    Well I'd like to see that to believe it. To me Champ parses have always been wildly inconsistent (I played a Champ second to my Warden). That doesn't mean bad, it's just the nature of a class made for AOE. If you have a huge pull and all AOE skills can be used, and the mobs die after your initial rotation, well yeah you're going to see crazy high DPS numbers. In more realistic situations the DPS is usually far less. Unless I can see consistent footage of a Champ reliably hitting something like 17k DPS I'm going to chalk that off to an ideal type of pull.
    Yeah, I agree. Outside of perfect circumstances, that number is awful high.
    Beleag, Warden - Saelmundi, Rune-keeper - Nimerdale, Champion - Haldoun, Captain

  15. #40
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    Another thing to mention is the lack of an effective Force Taunt. How do you tank mobs that absorb damage (e.g. Daywalkers in skirm or brutes in SG)?

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardhik View Post
    Hi.

    Even as a guardian, I have issue in tanking. I no longer threat opponent, I just force taunt them, and it's so dull. Now, I can solo tank durchest juste by spamming frey the edge (10 sec cd for a 15 sec force taunt).

    When I have to tank more than 5 mobs... the only skills I can use is Challenge (13 targets, 30 sec CD, 15 sec force taunt (20 sec very soon with the jewellry).

    What I want to say is : If guardian didn't have force taunt, we would have been in the same position as wardens... so tanking is broken atm. I tank better in red line really... just DPS with a force taunt there and here and you are good.
    Thanks for the input from the other side. I'm sorry that you feel tanking is broken for you, but I'm glad it's not just us.

    What really irks me is what I have bolded. If the Guard dev could explain why he thought ignoring the rules other devs followed for the threat revamp was okay, Egg could explain why our only taunt isn't half as powerful as either of these, or ANYONE at Turbine could explain how this got passed through QA I'd love to hear it. A force taunt that lasts longer than it's cooldown?! A thirteen target force taunt that could potentially be up 75% of the time?? But we had to lose our threat leeches... Are you kidding me???

    12.1 needs to pick up the ball that seems to have been dropped in regards to the threat revamp. Big time.
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  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by .cy View Post
    Another thing to mention is the lack of an effective Force Taunt. How do you tank mobs that absorb damage (e.g. Daywalkers in skirm or brutes in SG)?
    I have used conviction to pull targets I cannot damage. Seems to give me just enough. Haven't tested that all that much however.
    Beleag, Warden - Saelmundi, Rune-keeper - Nimerdale, Champion - Haldoun, Captain

  18. #43

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    What really irks me is what I have bolded. If the Guard dev could explain why he thought ignoring the rules other devs followed for the threat revamp was okay, Egg could explain why our only taunt isn't half as powerful as either of these, or ANYONE at Turbine could explain how this got passed through QA I'd love to hear it. A force taunt that lasts longer than it's cooldown?! A thirteen target force taunt that could potentially be up 75% of the time?? But we had to lose our threat leeches... Are you kidding me???

    12.1 needs to pick up the ball that seems to have been dropped in regards to the threat revamp. Big time.
    Agreed on all points. These class changes in particular were not thought through.. at all. This much is obvious.

    In our case, what was once a unique class with a high-risk, high-reward skill ceiling is now a total chore to play.

    If I wanted that I would tank on my guard, and be twice as effective doing so, assuming I could stay awake.

    With all due respect to Egg, they should have given the job of gutting our class to someone who has at least played it before.


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  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    Thanks for the input from the other side. I'm sorry that you feel tanking is broken for you, but I'm glad it's not just us.

    What really irks me is what I have bolded. If the Guard dev could explain why he thought ignoring the rules other devs followed for the threat revamp was okay, Egg could explain why our only taunt isn't half as powerful as either of these, or ANYONE at Turbine could explain how this got passed through QA I'd love to hear it. A force taunt that lasts longer than it's cooldown?! A thirteen target force taunt that could potentially be up 75% of the time?? But we had to lose our threat leeches... Are you kidding me???

    12.1 needs to pick up the ball that seems to have been dropped in regards to the threat revamp. Big time.
    Well, it's not just the Guardian. The Captain is also better tank than the Warden now. Probably on par with the Guardian from what I've seen, if not better.
    And not to add fuel to the fire, but all these points about threat (and many more, like DC radius/targets being a joke, too few AoE gambit max targets, bringing threat leeches back, increasing buff durations, or getting a Blue Capstone that helped us tanking) were pointed out and asked to be changed a zillion times since BETA 3, at least.

    I personally don't think Guardians' or Captains' dev went bananas boosting their classes. If you look around at the rest of the classes, they can perform their primary roles pretty good. All except the Warden. It's obvious what class was just left aside unfinished since early Beta.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post

    I personally don't think Guardians' or Captains' dev went bananas boosting their classes. If you look around at the rest of the classes, they can perform their primary roles pretty good. All except the Warden. It's obvious what class was just left aside unfinished since early Beta.
    I would disagree with your last comment by only saying that as Wardens have challenges performing their primary role so too does the LM - the yellow line as was pointed out for a long time is to be overlooked.
    TheInklingsKin.com

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Drglory View Post
    Where are these numbers from? Most of the champs I see are complaining about how little DPS they are doing. There is even a thread in the champ forums comparing their DPS to ours (we are winning).
    Ill get some parse extracts and screen shots.
    TheInklingsKin.com

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by .cy View Post
    Another thing to mention is the lack of an effective Force Taunt. How do you tank mobs that absorb damage (e.g. Daywalkers in skirm or brutes in SG)?
    Threat leeches...

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by JTollers View Post
    Ill get some parse extracts and screen shots.
    I don't really want to get off topic and start a debate on Champ DPS, but a screen shot is sort of exactly what I was talking about. You can put up an ideal situation, start the fight blasting out a ton of DPS, screen shot it and say bam look at that DPS. The truth will come from video showing routine pulls that last longer than 1 rotation of all the Champ's skills and are around 4-6 mobs.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    Threat leeches...
    We don't have threat leeches anymore. We only have ONE threat catch-up tool currently (while both Guardians and Captains each have at least two - not sure about champs): Defiant Challenge.

    Now, if healing were to be changed so that it does not generate threat, then once DC is popped near mobs that absorb, then the Warden should have aggro...right?


    I have yet to start leveling my Warden in HD, but I tested it in beta. I still haven't been won over on threat changes. I am still firmly in the "change it back" camp.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    Threat leeches...
    Methinks he was dreaming of the days before HD came and took them all away.

 

 
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