Warden Threat Problem In Raid

[JLotro]

Edit: NOTE - I am determination spec'd.

Ran a 12-man (BG) as main tank with some pretty well spec'd DPS (others) and
found that the new Warden threat absolutely FAILS there. I spent ALL my
time trying to get aggro and probably only held it 20% of the time.
Our single target threat in a small group seems OK, but in the raid
even that was pretty poor. Our AOE threat is just TERRIBLE.

I tried spamming Resolution, EOB, and WC to get AOE aggro, but as soon
as a Champ or RK let loose with an AOE skill it was lost. If our AOE
threat is not significantly STRONGER than DPS AOE then it is useless.
Or do we ask DPS not to AOE now?

I tried staying on a single target... I would lose aggro early and often IF I got
aggro back the target was nearly dead by then.

DC was a joke. Sometimes it did nothing. Other times I got aggro but
before I could even finish a 3-key gambit I had lost it again. The most
success I had was avoiding gambits longer than 2-keys. (mostly just 3,1)
If I tried longer gambits I often lost aggro before I could finish them.

Forget about self buffs - no time for that! I would like to do other
things besides chase stuff around that I lost aggro on. I would like
effective aggro skills that hold aggro long enough to allow me to
consider self buffs.

The run was a "success" because in the end the DPS just nuked the mobs,
took aggro, and they tanked most of it, killing it faster that it killed them.

It was super disappointing. I was nearly enticed to buy some turbine
points while the double bonus sale is running, but the Warden is looking
too uncertain to me now for raiding. I have invested a lot of time
(and $) building my Warden to get such poor performance.

BTW: I'm lv 95, near full blue, 22k morale, 35k phys mastery, lv85 FA weapons.

[thunderchickn]

BTW: I'm lv 95, near full blue, 22k morale, 35k phys mastery, lv85 FA weapons.

This may be your problem. Your weapon's DPS is very low compared to what you could get on a 95 Second Age. You said you have mostly teal gear, is that also level 85 or do you have 95 gear? 35k mastery sounds low to me, I know when I have DPS gear on I'm close to 45k. With tank gear I think I'm still around 40k, don't remember. That extra 5k isn't nearly as important as having an on level weapon though.

Defiant Challenge is very messed up right now. When this expansion first came out I thought maybe they removed that force taunt icon that looks like a lion, because I never saw it with DC. Well now I know it's still in game because Captains, Champs, Guards all put that icon on the mob. DC doesn't. Not to mention the pathetic range and how half the time it doesn't even work. Hopefully fixes for that skill come in 12.1, especially if it's supposed to be so crucial for us to tank.

[JLotro]

This may be your problem. Your weapon's DPS is very low compared to what you could get on a 95 Second Age. You said you have mostly teal gear, is that also level 85 or do you have 95 gear? 35k mastery sounds low to me, I know when I have DPS gear on I'm close to 45k. With tank gear I think I'm still around 40k, don't remember. That extra 5k isn't nearly as important as having an on level weapon though.

Defiant Challenge is very messed up right now. When this expansion first came out I thought maybe they removed that force taunt icon that looks like a lion, because I never saw it with DC. Well now I know it's still in game because Captains, Champs, Guards all put that icon on the mob. DC doesn't. Not to mention the pathetic range and how half the time it doesn't even work. Hopefully fixes for that skill come in 12.1, especially if it's supposed to be so crucial for us to tank.

I have all lv95 armor and jewelry - pretty good stuff. As for the weapons - I thought the dps difference
mainly affected auto-attacks, and most of the dps comes from skills.

At about 35k phy-mastery I get +100% DPS. That seems pretty good. I can get more phys-mastery, but I think
as a tank I ought to be investing in gear that helps BPE and moral too. I'm currently at about 70% total BPE unbuffed.

All in all, my stats looks really pretty good on paper. I should be able to tank really well. But it is SO BAD, that I
can not believe it. Especially AOE threat. There is no way I can manage multiple mobs decently - and this is supposed
to be an area where the Warden excels.

[thunderchickn]

Well Wardens no longer excel in AOE, we're now the best single target threat builders IMO. We're told threat is being closely monitored, and we know we're getting at least some attention in 12.1 so we'll have to see what it looks like when that hits. As I said, your physical mastery sounds low to me but I don't think it's much of a determining factor compared to the weapon.

Still though, threat was changed to DPS based. Knowing that, if you're trying to build threat with a weapon that's 10 levels old... you're gonna have a bad time. The weapon absolutely matters in determining the damage you deal. If you unequip it, you'll see all the skills say something like "100% of main hand weapon damage + 300" or something. The way I understand this, it means your weapon damage is the biggest contributor to the damage your skills are dealing. There's a reason first agers are biggest for DPS classes.

[Drglory]

A 95 second age should be your first priority. You get a substantial DPS Boost from it.

WC is a waste. Drop it entirely.

Perhaps you should post a screenshot of your trait layout. I recommend specking for as much light damage as you can. My EOB hits for 1100 a tick.

Edit: I agree with thunderchickn, we have ungodly threat generation in single target. Light DOTs just eat mobs alive.

[bohbashum]

specced dps? you need to spec blue to get the 300% aggro on dps btw.

like others have said
- better weapon
- don't use warcry to often
- desolation is king
- not that great at aoe anymore

DC won't be a good innitial aggro skills so wait to use it after maybe 10s and only really use it when you lose aggro as thats when it's most effective.

in a raid, with all the buffs floating around, we might need an off-tank to support our aggro by using a force taunt then we force taunt straight after them. this generates a HUGE amount of aggro and might be needed for boss tanking now if this dps on classes doesn't go down.

[Lunasa]

in a raid, with all the buffs floating around, we might need an off-tank to support our aggro by using a force taunt then we force taunt straight after them. this generates a HUGE amount of aggro and might be needed for boss tanking now if this dps on classes doesn't go down.

This does sound good in theory, but... captains and guardians do not need any off-tank to keep agro. They can just chain-spam force-taunts or those threat-catch-up skills on the boss. Wardens and champions still need to dps to keep agro up... Does not sound fair at all

I did a couple of BG t2c runs as a tanking captain and there were always wardens in those runs too. As a captain I had no issues keeping 2-4 mobs on me all the time till and including LT. Wardens were switching to dps after a while because a lack of ability to permanently keep agro against fully geared hunters/LMs frustrated them. A very similar frustration I see among all champions who loved to tank before HD and now with only one single-target force taunt they are not able to control more than one mob.

My warden alt is stuck in her 60s, but even after checking all the skills she has now and observing agro performance of wardens in BG/OD/skirmish raids for the past weeks (wardens which I knew before HD and trust them), I really feel the pain of the topic starter.

[JLotro]

specced dps? you need to spec blue to get the 300% aggro on dps btw.

like others have said
- better weapon
- don't use warcry to often
- desolation is king
- not that great at aoe anymore

DC won't be a good innitial aggro skills so wait to use it after maybe 10s and only really use it when you lose aggro as thats when it's most effective.

in a raid, with all the buffs floating around, we might need an off-tank to support our aggro by using a force taunt then we force taunt straight after them. this generates a HUGE amount of aggro and might be needed for boss tanking now if this dps on classes doesn't go down.

Bohb - WHY do you think I am spec'd DPS?


- I have a couple years experience playing.
- I'm blue TREE traited of course (determination).
- I understand DC and don't use it to pull.
- Have the +5% light damage legacy, and +10% spear damage.
- My EOB does about 1050/tick, Resolution about 1360.

- Might 1700
- Agil 1700
- Vit 3600
- Will 150
- Fate 460
- Finesse 8500
- Phys mast 36800

I think that is all the relevent info.

I looked at the DPS from my lv85 FA with 3 crystals and
it seems about the same as a lv95 2nd age with no crystals.

The AOE threat is so poor right now that I doubt even another
30% would make it decent.

IMHO, our AOE threat need to be strong enough that we can
hold several adds with the occasional EOB, etc, WHILE we single
target a boss and hold him too.

By "holding adds" I mean against champs and rk's doing reasonable
AOE DPS. (not just holding them when no one is hitting them)

The failure of our AOE threat is a HUGE problem in a raid when
you almost never just get one target at a time.

The inherent SLOWNESS of the gambit system makes it impossible
to round-robin all the targets and apply single target threat/dps
to them. You can not keep up that way in a raid. You need strong
AOE threat to manage large fights.

Then if threat is strong enough you can think about self buffs and
trying to survive.

[rannion]

This may be your problem. Your weapon's DPS is very low compared to what you could get on a 95 Second Age. You said you have mostly teal gear, is that also level 85 or do you have 95 gear? 35k mastery sounds low to me, I know when I have DPS gear on I'm close to 45k. With tank gear I think I'm still around 40k, don't remember. That extra 5k isn't nearly as important as having an on level weapon though.

Defiant Challenge is very messed up right now. When this expansion first came out I thought maybe they removed that force taunt icon that looks like a lion, because I never saw it with DC. Well now I know it's still in game because Captains, Champs, Guards all put that icon on the mob. DC doesn't. Not to mention the pathetic range and how half the time it doesn't even work. Hopefully fixes for that skill come in 12.1, especially if it's supposed to be so crucial for us to tank.

DC only does engage+20%, yes, no force taunt. It was deemed unneeded. (And never mind what skills other classes have, right?)

That said, I would humbly point out that the strength of all light-based attacks is not determined by mh (or javelin) damage, but simply by level, traits, class items and legacies. The dps value of your weaponry only matters to spear-based gambits, which are hardly ideal for AoE tanking. (The only viable option there might be traiting for spear-sweep etc., but the range on the sweep doesn't seem that big, so as soon as a group of mobs is split you're 'in trouble'.)

[thunderchickn]

DC only does engage+20%, yes, no force taunt. It was deemed unneeded. (And never mind what skills other classes have, right?)

That said, I would humbly point out that the strength of all light-based attacks is not determined by mh (or javelin) damage, but simply by level, traits, class items and legacies. The dps value of your weaponry only matters to spear-based gambits, which are hardly ideal for AoE tanking. (The only viable option there might be traiting for spear-sweep etc., but the range on the sweep doesn't seem that big, so as soon as a group of mobs is split you're 'in trouble'.)

I'm not so sure DC needs to be a force taunt either, once it actually works right and hopefully gets a huge target increase (like double) then we can judge it better. I just wish they were more clear about it. "All taunts are now forced taunts that give you 120% of the top threat" is just not true.

Thanks for pointing out the light damage stuff. That is certainly most of our damage, and it's not even close.

Also Bohbashum pointed out something we all seemed to miss. He's traited DPS! You MUST at least specialize in Determination if you want to tank because of the 300% threat boost. That is non optional. Given the way he mentioned he was traited DPS in such a passing way, I am curious as to how many people seriously struggling with threat are not specialized in Determination. I mean seriously struggling like the OP, not even able to hold anything for more than a second, not just having some mobs get away once in awhile. It's something else that should be much more clear in game. Choose your traits however you want but you MUST specialize in Determination to tank.

[rannion]

Also Bohbashum pointed out something we all seemed to miss. He's traited DPS! You MUST at least specialize in Determination if you want to tank because of the 300% threat boost. That is non optional. Given the way he mentioned he was traited DPS in such a passing way, I am curious as to how many people seriously struggling with threat are not specialized in Determination. I mean seriously struggling like the OP, not even able to hold anything for more than a second, not just having some mobs get away once in awhile. It's something else that should be much more clear in game. Choose your traits however you want but you MUST specialize in Determination to tank.

He's not, unless he is color-blind:

BTW: I'm lv 95, near full blue, 22k morale, 35k phys mastery, lv85 FA weapons.

The line about 'well-specced dps' refers to the dds in his raid, not to him.
And as I posted in the other thread, my experience with BG was very similar.. The Gauntlet was a mess with mobs everywhere but on me (a force aggro certainly would've helped a bit, though 5s is probably too little. anyway), and Durchest hit way harder than he otherwise would have (2x17k hit, 1x21k) if I'd been able to keep up my crit def buffs better. After that it got a lot easier but that's mostly because it's 2-3 mobs max being tanked (the wights don't count). Still, the first part leaves a very bad taste.

Edit: Guess I'll have to try cycling through tanking targets like guards used to need to, and putting dots on them in sequence, while hoping they aren't pulled off me. But that will still require the dps to hold off a lot longer than they were used to, and most can't be bothered because they hardly ever die if they pull aggro anyway.

[thunderchickn]

*Shrug* I thought the full blue comment was about his gear lol. Even if it is about his traits, being near full blue doesn't say what the specialization is. I would be willing to bet that a good chunk of Wardens having trouble out there are not specialized in Determination, either on purpose or by accidently not switching over.

[JLotro]

He's not, unless he is color-blind:

Edit: Guess I'll have to try cycling through tanking targets like guards used to need to, and putting dots on them in sequence, while hoping they aren't pulled off me. But that will still require the dps to hold off a lot longer than they were used to, and most can't be bothered because they hardly ever die if they pull aggro anyway.

Thanks for realizing i am determination traited :->

The round-robin approach seems sick to me with the slowness of the gambit system. A guard
can pull it off much better with single clickies.

[bohbashum]

DC only does engage+20%, yes, no force taunt. It was deemed unneeded. (And never mind what skills other classes have, right?

captains force taunt in a BB I did the other day had the old type of force taunt (icon and forced attack for 5 seconds) so I think it might be a bug DC no longer has that feature. don't see why it shouldn't have it tbh.

thats not ALL DC does by the way. DC does seem to be doing other stuff but it's tough to work out just what. at this moment in time with little testing I'm going off the assumtion it also increases your outgoing aggro to 600% for a short time as in tests I generated 300% extra and was never sure where it was comeing from.

[Buraq]

Have you tried dpsing in epic battles?

^^ An exercise in frustration.

Choose your traits however you want but you MUST specialize in Determination to tank.

Pretty sure OP was talking about others in the raid.

Ran a 12-man (BG) as main tank with some pretty well spec'd DPS and
found that the new Warden threat absolutely FAILS there.

BTW: I'm lv 95, near full blue, 22k morale, 35k phys mastery, lv85 FA weapons.

Says at the end near full blue

[spelunker]

captains force taunt in a BB I did the other day had the old type of force taunt (icon and forced attack for 5 seconds) so I think it might be a bug DC no longer has that feature. don't see why it shouldn't have it tbh.

thats not ALL DC does by the way. DC does seem to be doing other stuff but it's tough to work out just what. at this moment in time with little testing I'm going off the assumtion it also increases your outgoing aggro to 600% for a short time as in tests I generated 300% extra and was never sure where it was comeing from.

At least we've moved away from a convoluted threat system into one that is straightforward and easy to understand...

While I've only been doing it as a group of 3-6, I've been 'tanking' skraids with kinnies (generally 1 or 2 champs, a guard, and 1 or 2 random dps usually burg or hunter). While not the point of the threat, its positively embarrassing how trivial the skraids are: 1 or 2 defensive skills in an entire pull is all it takes to keep me alive in most scenarios (so 2 resolutions in a pull of 8 trash mobs is more than enough). I'm running 2 fist, 4 spear from the old hytbolt set for tanking and purple 95 dps jewelry, with both a second age 95 Jav and Sword. Aggro really hasn't been that bad for me. Tanking LTs is cake if you just stack DoTs, ~3 target pulls are best handled with desolation, goad, and then hit each mob with the t3 light DoT (I do Surety on 1, BMed surety on the next, and SoV on the third) then commence with whatever I feel like. Big AoE pulls are certainly more problematic, but even with its 6 target max, Resounding challenge as you approach mobs is super important, then I'll use desolation to ensure I have 3 mobs decently locked down, Goad and either Resolution or Resounding depending on total targets, try to directionally get 3 different mobs with Desolation, and then focus ST DoTs on higher priority tank targets. This is by no means a perfect system, but I am holding down the majority of mobs from yellow champs pulling huge AoE parses, without ever touching DC. I'm routinely parsing over 4k on AoE pulls or sustained boss fights in tank spec. My traits are just enough to unlock +3 hot pulses, and then from red line 5 into builder damage, 5 bleed damage, 5 Light damage, and everything left into DoT crits.

In Single target tanking, I've had no problem holding over hunters hitting well over 10k dps, since in the build I have 3500 dps is a pretty poor showing. Of course if they lead with a 30k upshot Dev, I don't start with aggro, but I do get it back in decently short order, without DC. FWIW the dpsers are much better geared than me, too.

Tanking gameplay sucks, btw.

[Drglory]

At least we've moved away from a convoluted threat system into one that is straightforward and easy to understand...

While I've only been doing it as a group of 3-6, I've been 'tanking' skraids with kinnies (generally 1 or 2 champs, a guard, and 1 or 2 random dps usually burg or hunter). While not the point of the threat, its positively embarrassing how trivial the skraids are: 1 or 2 defensive skills in an entire pull is all it takes to keep me alive in most scenarios (so 2 resolutions in a pull of 8 trash mobs is more than enough). I'm running 2 fist, 4 spear from the old hytbolt set for tanking and purple 95 dps jewelry, with both a second age 95 Jav and Sword. Aggro really hasn't been that bad for me. Tanking LTs is cake if you just stack DoTs, ~3 target pulls are best handled with desolation, goad, and then hit each mob with the t3 light DoT (I do Surety on 1, BMed surety on the next, and SoV on the third) then commence with whatever I feel like. Big AoE pulls are certainly more problematic, but even with its 6 target max, Resounding challenge as you approach mobs is super important, then I'll use desolation to ensure I have 3 mobs decently locked down, Goad and either Resolution or Resounding depending on total targets, try to directionally get 3 different mobs with Desolation, and then focus ST DoTs on higher priority tank targets. This is by no means a perfect system, but I am holding down the majority of mobs from yellow champs pulling huge AoE parses, without ever touching DC. I'm routinely parsing over 4k on AoE pulls or sustained boss fights in tank spec. My traits are just enough to unlock +3 hot pulses, and then from red line 5 into builder damage, 5 bleed damage, 5 Light damage, and everything left into DoT crits.

In Single target tanking, I've had no problem holding over hunters hitting well over 10k dps, since in the build I have 3500 dps is a pretty poor showing. Of course if they lead with a 30k upshot Dev, I don't start with aggro, but I do get it back in decently short order, without DC. FWIW the dpsers are much better geared than me, too.

Tanking gameplay sucks, btw.

This is very much my experience, only with less resolution and more EOB.

[Dradous]

Ran a 12-man (BG) as main tank with some pretty well spec'd DPS and
found that the new Warden threat absolutely FAILS there. I spent ALL my
time trying to get aggro and probably only held it 20% of the time.
Our single target threat in a small group seems OK, but in the raid
even that was pretty poor. Our AOE threat is just TERRIBLE.

I tried spamming Resolution, EOB, and WC to get AOE aggro, but as soon
as a Champ or RK let loose with an AOE skill it was lost. If our AOE
threat is not significantly STRONGER than DPS AOE then it is useless.
Or do we ask DPS not to AOE now?

I tried staying on a single target... I would lose aggro early and often IF I got
aggro back the target was nearly dead by then.

DC was a joke. Sometimes it did nothing. Other times I got aggro but
before I could even finish a 3-key gambit I had lost it again. The most
success I had was avoiding gambits longer than 2-keys. (mostly just 3,1)
If I tried longer gambits I often lost aggro before I could finish them.

Forget about self buffs - no time for that! I would like to do other
things besides chase stuff around that I lost aggro on. I would like
effective aggro skills that hold aggro long enough to allow me to
consider self buffs.

The run was a "success" because in the end the DPS just nuked the mobs,
took aggro, and they tanked most of it, killing it faster that it killed them.

It was super disappointing. I was nearly enticed to buy some turbine
points while the double bonus sale is running, but the Warden is looking
too uncertain to me now for raiding. I have invested a lot of time
(and $) building my Warden to get such poor performance.

BTW: I'm lv 95, near full blue, 22k morale, 35k phys mastery, lv85 FA weapons.

I had exactly the same experience today. Things are just a mess. You don't have time to self buff anymore. You are basically fightinh for aggro all the time. There were a couple of mobs mezzed and i had to constantly move to try and get away from them so i dont wake them up. DC is just god aweful. Very dissapointed to say the least.

Everyone in this and many other threads is coming up with suggestions for us to "fix" our traits/rotations/LIS when the major issue here is the class and game itself. The original design spec as outlined by DEVs was that they wanted to revamp threat and make it passive so that the tanks can concentrate on survivability. The opposite is what it actually happens in raids now. I spent every sec in battle trying to grab aggro. More so the dev diary for wardens said that we were going to be the "premium aoe" tank. Well, there is nothing premium about our class any more. As a matter of fact there are very few things that are fun with wardens these days. Have you tried dpsing in epic battles?

[Drglory]

I had exactly the same experience today. Things are just a mess. You don't have time to self buff anymore. You are basically fightinh for aggro all the time. There were a couple of mobs mezzed and i had to constantly move to try and get away from them so i dont wake them up. DC is just god aweful. Very dissapointed to say the least.

Everyone in this and many other threads is coming up with suggestions for us to "fix" our traits/rotations/LIS when the major issue here is the class and game itself. The original design spec as outlined by DEVs was that they wanted to revamp threat and make it passive so that the tanks can concentrate on survivability. The opposite is what it actually happens in raids now. I spent every sec in battle trying to grab aggro. More so the dev diary for wardens said that we were going to be the "premium aoe" tank. Well, there is nothing premium about our class any more. As a matter of fact there are very few things that are fun with wardens these days. Have you tried dpsing in epic battles?

While I do agree there are some problems with us, I do not have the same issues keeping aggro. Thus, it is not a problem with the game but a problem with some players. I have yet to run BG, so it is possible there is an aggro debuff that may be causing problems.

I have ran with every class, and even with some who already have their set jewelry. On their best day (AOE for champs and spikey , I can hold aggro. The only time I have not is when I have 10-15 mobs to hit.

[JTollers]

While I do agree there are some problems with us, I do not have the same issues keeping aggro. Thus, it is not a problem with the game but a problem with some players. I have yet to run BG, so it is possible there is an aggro debuff that may be causing problems.

I have ran with every class, and even with some who already have their set jewelry. On their best day (AOE for champs and spikey , I can hold aggro. The only time I have not is when I have 10-15 mobs to hit.

Perhaps it's your players and not you? I first hand witnessed this, and Dradous does not have aggro holding issues. He 12 man tanks Saruman, has tanked every raid pre HD with no issues in threat or survivability, one of our Champs Mblue has been putting out 17k DPS post update and was doing 4k pre update. The warden is a mess, and watching one of the best tanks I have played with in 6 years struggle like I saw today was frustrating...it honestly reconfirmed many of the feelings I was having going into this expansion.

I dropped one skill, and he lost threat. That is just silly. This was ToO and not BG. There are no threat debuff issues in Lightning Wing.

[Drglory]

Perhaps it's your players and not you? I first hand witnessed this, and Dradous does not have aggro holding issues. He 12 man tanks Saruman, has tanked every raid pre HD with no issues in threat or survivability, one of our Champs Mblue has been putting out 17k DPS post update and was doing 4k pre update. The warden is a mess, and watching one of the best tanks I have played with in 6 years struggle like I saw today was frustrating...it honestly reconfirmed many of the feelings I was having going into this expansion.

I dropped one skill, and he lost threat. That is just silly. This was ToO and not BG. There are no threat debuff issues in Lightning Wing.

Mayhap there is a problem, a bugged trait, or something of that nature. It was not my intent to demean the ability of a good tank. All I can say is "I" am not experiencing problems, and this leads me to believe the class is not having problems.

Now, JLotro, you mentioned that you have 1700 Might. I have 162 Might (With +70 store bought). Where is all this from? Could this be causing the difference?

Also in regards to a 85 First age verses a 95 Second age. Both with three crystals.

First age sword (85): 157.1
Second age sword (95): 226.1

[Saiffyros]

We did full BG t2c and had no problem there. But for Battle t2 and skirmishs, specialy if you have champs, can be hard to keep adds.
I will get a video next time. Think that can help some guys.

[JLotro]

Mayhap there is a problem, a bugged trait, or something of that nature. It was not my intent to demean the ability of a good tank. All I can say is "I" am not experiencing problems, and this leads me to believe the class is not having problems.

Now, JLotro, you mentioned that you have 1700 Might. I have 162 Might (With +70 store bought). Where is all this from? Could this be causing the difference?

Also in regards to a 85 First age verses a 95 Second age. Both with three crystals.

First age sword (85): 157.1
Second age sword (95): 226.1

Drglory, I chose gear that gets my might and agility about the same for tanking. This gets
my block up where I want it to be and has other positives as well. The only way that I can see
might or agility affecting threat is how they relate to our physical mastery. Now, I can drop
my might and raise my agility but end up with the same physical mastery, SO.... I can not
fathom how higher might would reduce my threat. (?)

Re the sword, yes I see if you put crystals in the lv95 it is definitely better. I'm not sure
what effect that 226 number has on our AOE threat. Any idea? Have you tried some EOB's
with both?

[danno8]

Where are these numbers from? Most of the champs I see are complaining about how little DPS they are doing. There is even a thread in the champ forums comparing their DPS to ours (we are winning).

From this quote in the thread earlier:

Perhaps it's your players and not you? I first hand witnessed this, and Dradous does not have aggro holding issues. He 12 man tanks Saruman, has tanked every raid pre HD with no issues in threat or survivability, one of our Champs Mblue has been putting out 17k DPS post update and was doing 4k pre update. The warden is a mess, and watching one of the best tanks I have played with in 6 years struggle like I saw today was frustrating...it honestly reconfirmed many of the feelings I was having going into this expansion.

I dropped one skill, and he lost threat. That is just silly. This was ToO and not BG. There are no threat debuff issues in Lightning Wing.

Actually you quoted this quote in the very next post, hehe. I mean if champs are truly only close to us in dps then the 300% agro should easily put us way out in front. But that does not seem to be the case?

[thunderchickn]

Well I'd like to see that to believe it. To me Champ parses have always been wildly inconsistent (I played a Champ second to my Warden). That doesn't mean bad, it's just the nature of a class made for AOE. If you have a huge pull and all AOE skills can be used, and the mobs die after your initial rotation, well yeah you're going to see crazy high DPS numbers. In more realistic situations the DPS is usually far less. Unless I can see consistent footage of a Champ reliably hitting something like 17k DPS I'm going to chalk that off to an ideal type of pull.