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  1. #1

    The Current State of the Warden?

    Hello fellow wardens, first time logging in today post HD. Had a play around on the training dummies and the trait trees and feel pretty "meh" about what I have seen so far. Having yet to really get a good idea of what the changes have done, can my warden buddies please enlighten me as to what our current tanking and dps abilities are. I'm guessing dps has improved (since every other class has had dps buffs as well) but really don't know what's happened to tanking. Also confused about how I can trait tank line and melee line and can still fight in ranged stance. What do you get out of traiting yellow then?

    Overall I am wondering if there is any place in wardens in current end-game. BB's don't need tanks only dps. If wardens are still outclassed in dps like they always were and many instances don't require tanks (by a tank I mean a guard or a warden, not pansy yellow-line champs or tank-traited cappy's) because everyone has 10k+ morale and heavy classes can easily hit 20k (also everyone is capped on mits now) is there any reason to play a warden currently?

  2. #2
    There is end game now? Wow, that gives me hope.
    From my point of view there are only few instances that after 1 year of farming I still find somehow fun (OD, LT, SS t2c- thats it), but it is almost not possible to find group for those even with good raiding kin (I'm not in one, but I heard this from people who are in such kins. If we can be so foolish to say there is still active raiding kin). But I have no idea how challanging they are now...
    BBs are fun, but they are not true group content. It is just dps race (don't forget to take 1 bubble traited OP RK) with new trait trees. Once you are high ranked, no matter engineer, officer or vanguard, you're the boss, everyone will want you in, be it 11th guard.

    Thats why I try to level up as slowly as possibly because I know there is not much waiting for me once I hit level cap.

    Better gear? Yes, nice! But I can do all content with purple crafted and landscape gear. RoR learned me much about how fun grinding and trying to get best gear is.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by wil1467 View Post
    BB's don't need tanks only dps.
    EBs dont need ANY class. You check your class in at the Launch screen. I have gotten gold metal efforts for running around giving commands and firing ballistas. Never hit a mob.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by wil1467 View Post
    (by a tank I mean a guard or a warden, not pansy yellow-line champs or tank-traited cappy's)
    Captains might be better tanks than Wardens right now. If only because they have 2 force taunts.
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  5. #5
    Here is my take on where we are at.

    Tanking
    Survivability single target - ok self heals don't seem as potent but we will live and I don't have any ICHR which might be the issue.
    Survivability multi target - resolution is insane 15k healing with 10 mobs per click.
    threat single target - not really much of an issue.
    threat multi target - you might want someone with cc to help out before your healer dies.

    recklessness

    single target - recklessness seems to do quite a bit of damage.
    AOE - we are barely a discount champion at best.

    assailment

    haven't been bothered to try it honestly
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  6. #6
    Was gona post a thread along the lines of this but this ones already so i guess ill just ask in here, is it worth coming back when my main is a warden or are they drastically different and or bad?
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Skidfar View Post
    is it worth coming back when my main is a warden or are they drastically different and or bad?
    Depends what do you expect.
    If, for you, only reason to play is because playing warden is fun (challange, difficulty in doing right rotations, the fact of being forced to learn well how to play it correctly) there is no point to come back.
    Tanking is mainly about spamming few gambits all the time. Mostly they are reactives (resolution- for heal, RC for AoE threat). It is huge change to our class, counter to what wardens were in past few years, and it is not entertaining, it is just copy with slight variation of other classes.
    DPS- roatations are way simpler (3 main dots instead of 6 main previously), there is no specific order in which you spam them (unlike unerring strike line previously), our buff gambits are usless for ranged dps (and for landscape/BBs ranged is only reasonable choice), instead we have few more 'clickies'.
    I haven't counted, but one uses like 50% of gambits that was used to use.

    I'm really unhappy with changes

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Galwir View Post
    Depends what do you expect.
    If, for you, only reason to play is because playing warden is fun (challange, difficulty in doing right rotations, the fact of being forced to learn well how to play it correctly) there is no point to come back.
    Tanking is mainly about spamming few gambits all the time. Mostly they are reactives (resolution- for heal, RC for AoE threat). It is huge change to our class, counter to what wardens were in past few years, and it is not entertaining, it is just copy with slight variation of other classes.
    DPS- roatations are way simpler (3 main dots instead of 6 main previously), there is no specific order in which you spam them (unlike unerring strike line previously), our buff gambits are usless for ranged dps (and for landscape/BBs ranged is only reasonable choice), instead we have few more 'clickies'.
    I haven't counted, but one uses like 50% of gambits that was used to use.

    I'm really unhappy with changes
    ya the challenge was one of the main reasons i liked them because they weren't just press this this and this i actually had to learn combos and so on, thats really unfortunate to hear :/
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  9. #9
    Honestly for my warden, I'm not doing bad at all when I'm tanking. Single target and AOE threat is working just fine for me. I'm not really having any trouble keeping aggro from kinnies (hunters, red-lined minis and LMs - and they don't hold back). Aside from some spotty coverage on Defiant Challenge, getting 90% mitigations when surrounded by a pack of mobs is great. I do try to wade into the center of them to get an optimal coverage for DC though. Most times I do forgot to click it for maintenance but it's not a big deal to me to do so. I'm not just spamming the same gambits over and over. I'm keeping a maintenance of War-cry, Fierce Resolve, EoB, an occasional Resolution, bleeds (from power attack line, spear of virtue, surety of death), and whatever self heals & buffs I care to use at the time.

    The shorter buff durations do not bother me much though I tend to build my warden as passively defensive as I can so I can concentrate on threat more if I need to. Even before HD I didn't put a huge emphasis on keeping all my buffs up all the time, just the ones I found I needed. I found that there is an extreme lack of finesse on tanking pieces so I'm mixing and matching dps pieces with my tanking items and I'm having great results since now I can get my physical & tactical masteries in a somewhat normal range so I can generate enough threat to keep up with sky high DPS. I'm still working on gearing up but it's working so far for me. I'd like to regain some critical defence and add a little more block though I can still cap it with gambits.

    Trait-wise, I've slotted mostly Determination traits except things I could do without: extra evade from War-cry, crit-d & mitigations from Impressive Flourish, block/parry from Stand Your Ground, and the For the Free Peoples capstone. I invested those points into Recklessness' traits: Vital Points (bleed dmg), 4 ranks of Basic Strikes (gambit builder dmg), Spear Sweep, and 4 ranks into Foe of Darkness (+16% light skill damage).

    Now I'm not running t2c raids atm, just t2c 6mans and raid skirmishes since that's not something our kin does too often and we're gearing up through instances and epic battles. But the point is that I can still round up a dozen or so mobs and keep them while our dps tears them apart. This past Friday we ran raid skirmishes and I kept my own throughout them, even single tanked Filzoff in Tuckborough with all the LT adds like I usually do. Nevermind that I just had carpal release surgery on my left wrist earlier that day so I was just using my mouse hand and was semi-drugged up from percoset. I can only imagine what I'll be able to do using both of my hands.

    Unbuffed stats
    Morale: 22653 / 2213 icmr
    Power: 5366 / 1515 icpr
    Vitality: 3496
    Agility: 3072
    Crit Rating: 7743 16.4%
    Finesse: 8071 17.6%
    Phys Mastery: 37715 104.4%
    Tact Mastery: 17086 49.1%
    Resistance: 14867 28.3%
    Crit Defence: 9675 50.5%
    Inc Healing: 7430 16%
    Block: 8026 16.8%
    Parry: 9353 21.5%
    Evade: 15128 24.2%
    Phys Mit: 21489 50%
    Tact Mit: 17176 49.1%
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SvenNiscadae View Post
    I can only imagine what I'll be able to do using both of my hands.
    TWSS?

    Nice post. Even not having played my warden I can tell you everything you described is easier on my guardian. I think with some captain / group buffs the other day I was over 100% mitigations too. This game has gotten strange.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    TWSS?

    Nice post. Even not having played my warden I can tell you everything you described is easier on my guardian. I think with some captain / group buffs the other day I was over 100% mitigations too. This game has gotten strange.
    My wife may have said that, though she was busy crit'ing Call to Fate and not healing me.

    Thanks. I have no doubt it is easier on a guardian; just wanted to emphasize that it is not impossible on a warden.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SvenNiscadae View Post
    My wife may have said that, though she was busy crit'ing Call to Fate and not healing me.

    Thanks. I have no doubt it is easier on a guardian; just wanted to emphasize that it is not impossible on a warden.
    "Not impossible" is the problem. I've heard captain tanking is very easy right now and on the guardian it is mindless. They are all over the difficulty/proficiency spectrum. Coming from a warden main (two expansions ago at this point) it isn't awesome that "Not impossible" is the current status. I'm not calling you out or saying your wrong or anything like that. I've gotten the "we can sorta do it" explanation from many others. It is just disappointing to me.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterion View Post
    "Not impossible" is the problem. I've heard captain tanking is very easy right now and on the guardian it is mindless. They are all over the difficulty/proficiency spectrum. Coming from a warden main (two expansions ago at this point) it isn't awesome that "Not impossible" is the current status. I'm not calling you out or saying your wrong or anything like that. I've gotten the "we can sorta do it" explanation from many others. It is just disappointing to me.
    For me, it's not really a state of 'not impossible'. Most of everyone else in every other thread are saying AOE tanking needs serious help and they aren't able to keep aggro. I'm able to tank. I'm not 'sorta doing it'. I'm doing it. I'm not struggling to keep aggro from overanxious dps. I've adjusted and worked in Turbine's overhaul into my tanking patterns so I can succeed. Would the return of threat transfers help? Of course they would. Would longer buff durations help? Of course. Did this threat revamp destroy the warden class? Maybe desecrated it a smidge when threat transfers were removed (I do believe one of the core differences of a warden were those), but it's far from broken. There are a few things that annoy me that I can't wait to be fixed. We're not perfect but we're not useless. I'm still having fun.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SvenNiscadae View Post
    For me, it's not really a state of 'not impossible'. Most of everyone else in every other thread are saying AOE tanking needs serious help and they aren't able to keep aggro. I'm able to tank. I'm not 'sorta doing it'. I'm doing it. I'm not struggling to keep aggro from overanxious dps. I've adjusted and worked in Turbine's overhaul into my tanking patterns so I can succeed.
    I'm not sure if the ability to hold aggro is really the most important point. It's a problem for many wardens out there, me included (the last time I tried it anyway), but there are others who say the can work it – and that's fine. In the end, it's also a pretty easy fix for Turbine: Just make the damage-aggro-modifier stronger or give us more aggro through healing or whatever, it's just a little number modification.
    But what I'm reading from most of the posts (and I may be wrong) is that tanking just simply isn't fun anymore for many: Clicking on a button every 20 minutes isn't very entertaining and it surely isn't the grand idea the warden as a class was build around. There are some people out there who still enjoy tanking with their warden – and that's great – but many on my server and I think here in the forums just don't have fun playing their favorite class anymore because of these changes.

  15. #15
    I drew agro on-level against a group of 5 NPC's last night, got called by my wife upstairs.... thought it was an emergency of course. Ran up stairs leaving the game mid-battle, dealt with the "supposed" emergency (had to work my deflection skill to remove the agro I drew from my wife), came back downstairs after having been gone over a full minute .......

    I had lost 20% of my morale in that time period.

    Take from that what you will. Landscape is overly easy and your skill level as a warden is almost irrelevant. Enjoy the game, look at your surrounding mid-fight, check out the pretty rainbow in the horizon, do whatever you want... you'll be fine.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by algonacy View Post
    I drew agro on-level against a group of 5 NPC's last night, got called by my wife upstairs.... thought it was an emergency of course. Ran up stairs leaving the game mid-battle, dealt with the "supposed" emergency (had to work my deflection skill to remove the agro I drew from my wife), came back downstairs after having been gone over a full minute .......

    I had lost 20% of my morale in that time period.

    Take from that what you will. Landscape is overly easy and your skill level as a warden is almost irrelevant. Enjoy the game, look at your surrounding mid-fight, check out the pretty rainbow in the horizon, do whatever you want... you'll be fine.
    Done that a few times! I'll normally just toss Shield Mastery up and then go and run to do whatever I had to do. Usually I'm not gone for more then a minute but it is rather amusing coming back and still being alive. Where in other MMO's that I play(ed) I could be gone for a second or two and die ha ha.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by SvenNiscadae View Post
    For me, it's not really a state of 'not impossible'. Most of everyone else in every other thread are saying AOE tanking needs serious help and they aren't able to keep aggro. I'm able to tank. I'm not 'sorta doing it'. I'm doing it. I'm not struggling to keep aggro from overanxious dps. I've adjusted and worked in Turbine's overhaul into my tanking patterns so I can succeed. Would the return of threat transfers help? Of course they would. Would longer buff durations help? Of course. Did this threat revamp destroy the warden class? Maybe desecrated it a smidge when threat transfers were removed (I do believe one of the core differences of a warden were those), but it's far from broken. There are a few things that annoy me that I can't wait to be fixed. We're not perfect but we're not useless. I'm still having fun.
    I agree with you that Wardens can tank, but the new mechanics have some problems that made HD Wardens much more limited than before.
    To start off, in AoE situations, lifetaps have a very small radius, they don't ever crit and the damage is too soft. Compared to what some AoE DPSers can do, sometimes not enough and you end up losing some mobs (probably the ones that were not affected by your early Goad or Desolation).

    Then you have the problem that you need to spam EoBs, Resolution, FBs non stop, DC, and you have no room to do anything else.
    Right now it doesn't matter, content is a faceroll and tanks are barely needed. But have in mind adjustments in content difficulty and derived stats are supposed to come, which supposedly will bring down BPE and mitigations in general, and then we will need to use our buffs to survive.
    And that will be impossible to do if AoE threat is not incremented and durations are not incremented more than 4s.

    Lifetaps should be closer to the dmg Desolation / Goad can do. Or Desolation and Goad should affect + targets. 3 targets for an AoE tank is a total joke.
    It makes no sense that a champ can hit 13 targets, or even all the targets in front of him, and we can only use AoE / DC on 10. Even Guards can affect 13 targets, in a 14m radius, I really don't understand why Warden is still capped to 10 targets at most, and 6m radius except with War Cry, which deals very low damage.

    About the radius of AoE gambits. Threat leeches affected fellows in a 25m radius. Now our best way of AoE aggroing is reduced to 6m radius. In situations where mobs don't spawn together in a pack, like BoD 1st boss, where you can get more than 10 mobs and where they spawn from different angles, there are problems. Can be done? Sure. But in a clumsy, slow, and un-wardenish way, often with mobs outside your 6m radius forcing you to chase them around to throw a SoD or Desolation to get aggro back.

    DC in 12.1, will affect 10 targets too, so even if the fix is very welcome, the limitation is still there.
    AoE max target number, lifetaps dmg & radius from all AoE gambits should be increased to make AoE tanking a bit more flowed than it is now.
    Last edited by Miloneel; Dec 11 2013 at 10:58 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    To start off, in AoE situations, lifetaps have a very small radius, they don't ever crit and the damage is too soft.
    ...
    AoE max target number, lifetaps dmg & radius from all AoE gambits should be increased to make AoE tanking a bit more flowed than it is now.
    I did notice that our lifetaps' damage is not affected by mastery, physical or tactical, or the +Light Skill Damage buff from the carvings. Mine stay at the same number on the tooltip. For me: Fierce Resolve 342 drained/352 gained, Resolution 1667 drained/1712 gained, EoB 1286 drained/695 gained. Even testing them on training dummies showed they all took the same amount of damage from them on each tick no matter if I had a +7% Light Damage carving slotted or not (which itself is bugged since the Eastemnet carving was +7% also, this should be +8%). I even took off all my armour and jewelry and it stayed the same damage. That there could be a bigger bug that needs fixed that could solve some issues in regards to generating enough AOE threat. The carving does affect light damage DoTs like from Surety of Death, etc though.

    Just checked the traits and tested the lifetaps, seems none of the Light Damage traits affect them, just the "+damage to morale taps" ones. Kind of misleading since the tooltips on FR/Resolution/EoB say Skill Type: Light, Morale-tap - though the damage does not say Light damage on it. Even if that's WAI, not getting a boost in damage from mastery cannot be.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by SvenNiscadae View Post
    I did notice that our lifetaps' damage is not affected by mastery, physical or tactical, or the +Light Skill Damage buff from the carvings. Mine stay at the same number on the tooltip. For me: Fierce Resolve 342 drained/352 gained, Resolution 1667 drained/1712 gained, EoB 1286 drained/695 gained. Even testing them on training dummies showed they all took the same amount of damage from them on each tick no matter if I had a +7% Light Damage carving slotted or not (which itself is bugged since the Eastemnet carving was +7% also, this should be +8%). I even took off all my armour and jewelry and it stayed the same damage. That there could be a bigger bug that needs fixed that could solve some issues in regards to generating enough AOE threat. The carving does affect light damage DoTs like from Surety of Death, etc though.

    Just checked the traits and tested the lifetaps, seems none of the Light Damage traits affect them, just the "+damage to morale taps" ones. Kind of misleading since the tooltips on FR/Resolution/EoB say Skill Type: Light, Morale-tap - though the damage does not say Light damage on it. Even if that's WAI, not getting a boost in damage from mastery cannot be.
    What you describe regarding lifetap damage is the way its always been.
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  20. #20
    You don't think mastery shouldn't count for the damage on them? They're basically basing it on your character's level atm? If they worked so well for everyone before HD, then that invisible threat number attached to them was definitely higher than their damage now.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by SvenNiscadae View Post
    You don't think mastery shouldn't count for the damage on them? They're basically basing it on your character's level atm? If they worked so well for everyone before HD, then that invisible threat number attached to them was definitely higher than their damage now.
    Oh, I'm not disputing whether its correct or not, just that it is working as intended and is unchanged from all past iterations of the warden as far back as I can remember.

    I've suggested this long ago, what I'd like to see for Resolution, EoB, Fierce resolve, and offensive strike is the damage component separated from the morale tap, such that the morale tap itself is a fixed value (aside from incoming healing), but the damage component becomes based on our mastery and traiting (and subject to crits). a 10 target Resolution is already worth close to 15k morale, which is ludicrous enough, increasing the damage done would be fine as wardens are relatively weak in AoE anyway, but increasing this while making it also increase morale taps would only further and already silly situation.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by SvenNiscadae View Post
    Honestly for my warden, I'm not doing bad at all when I'm tanking. Single target and AOE threat is working just fine for me. I'm not really having any trouble keeping aggro from kinnies (hunters, red-lined minis and LMs - and they don't hold back). Aside from some spotty coverage on Defiant Challenge, getting 90% mitigations when surrounded by a pack of mobs is great. I do try to wade into the center of them to get an optimal coverage for DC though. Most times I do forgot to click it for maintenance but it's not a big deal to me to do so. I'm not just spamming the same gambits over and over. I'm keeping a maintenance of War-cry, Fierce Resolve, EoB, an occasional Resolution, bleeds (from power attack line, spear of virtue, surety of death), and whatever self heals & buffs I care to use at the time.

    The shorter buff durations do not bother me much though I tend to build my warden as passively defensive as I can so I can concentrate on threat more if I need to. Even before HD I didn't put a huge emphasis on keeping all my buffs up all the time, just the ones I found I needed. I found that there is an extreme lack of finesse on tanking pieces so I'm mixing and matching dps pieces with my tanking items and I'm having great results since now I can get my physical & tactical masteries in a somewhat normal range so I can generate enough threat to keep up with sky high DPS. I'm still working on gearing up but it's working so far for me. I'd like to regain some critical defence and add a little more block though I can still cap it with gambits.

    Trait-wise, I've slotted mostly Determination traits except things I could do without: extra evade from War-cry, crit-d & mitigations from Impressive Flourish, block/parry from Stand Your Ground, and the For the Free Peoples capstone. I invested those points into Recklessness' traits: Vital Points (bleed dmg), 4 ranks of Basic Strikes (gambit builder dmg), Spear Sweep, and 4 ranks into Foe of Darkness (+16% light skill damage).

    Now I'm not running t2c raids atm, just t2c 6mans and raid skirmishes since that's not something our kin does too often and we're gearing up through instances and epic battles. But the point is that I can still round up a dozen or so mobs and keep them while our dps tears them apart. This past Friday we ran raid skirmishes and I kept my own throughout them, even single tanked Filzoff in Tuckborough with all the LT adds like I usually do. Nevermind that I just had carpal release surgery on my left wrist earlier that day so I was just using my mouse hand and was semi-drugged up from percoset. I can only imagine what I'll be able to do using both of my hands.

    Unbuffed stats
    Morale: 22653 / 2213 icmr
    Power: 5366 / 1515 icpr
    Vitality: 3496
    Agility: 3072
    Crit Rating: 7743 16.4%
    Finesse: 8071 17.6%
    Phys Mastery: 37715 104.4%
    Tact Mastery: 17086 49.1%
    Resistance: 14867 28.3%
    Crit Defence: 9675 50.5%
    Inc Healing: 7430 16%
    Block: 8026 16.8%
    Parry: 9353 21.5%
    Evade: 15128 24.2%
    Phys Mit: 21489 50%
    Tact Mit: 17176 49.1%
    I'd really like to see the DPS your fellowship is putting up. Against Champions there is no way I can mantain aggro reliably from several mobs. It is just not happening and honestly, I've given up. Granted I'm probably not be the best Warden in the world, so this doesn't mean that it is imposible to AoE tank when there are good Champions DPSing, but if it is possible right now, I would really want to see with which rotation/stats.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rNA52C7.jpg[/IMG]

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  23. #23
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    So what is the role of a Guardian? I always thought they were supposed to be the supreme tanking class? Now cappys and wardens are?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfrum View Post
    So what is the role of a Guardian? I always thought they were supposed to be the supreme tanking class? Now cappys and wardens are?
    You thought wrong. Since the inception of Wardens, nowhere has it ever been said that Guardians are supposed to be better. It has sometimes worked out that way, but it's never been the intention. Wardens and Guardians have always been intended to be equal, and for the most part in my mind they were (pre ROR is what I can speak to, but I heard we were Godly in ROR anyways).

    The general consensus now is that Guards/Cappies are the best tanks. I think Wardens can do fine, but not much really needs a tank now. It's hard to say where the tanks really are at until the stats are fixed. I believe Once again Turbine wants all 4 possible tank classes to be able to accomplish the same thing just in different ways.
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    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/tY1055I.jpg[/IMG]
    [color=green][b]Gloarn[/b][/color] 80 Burglar [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Glorn[/b][/color] 75 Champion [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Gloirn[/b][/color] 75 Rune-keeper [color=grey]|[/color] [color=green][b]Glourn[/b][/color] 75 Captain
    [color=brown][b]Glarnakh[/b][/color] R7 Warleader [color=grey]|[/color] [color=brown][b]Glarno[/b][/color] R6 Reaver
    [/center]

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldelcar View Post
    I'd really like to see the DPS your fellowship is putting up. Against Champions there is no way I can mantain aggro reliably from several mobs. It is just not happening and honestly, I've given up. Granted I'm probably not be the best Warden in the world, so this doesn't mean that it is imposible to AoE tank when there are good Champions DPSing, but if it is possible right now, I would really want to see with which rotation/stats.
    I agree, I don't know exactly why guards can get more aggro AOE (I guess it is maybe more damage or at least more instant damage). But I tried with my warden and honestly with a decent dps group I need like 10-20s of aggro generation on a group in order to keep aggro on them, so I only feel confident myself in single target aggro, but even like that, I need to spam all the time damaging gambits, and barely can self heal or apply buffs, and yet lose aggro sometimes. I don't yet have best gear, but the way warden is now, it is truly like a hunter (with 1/5 dps) with shield when tanking single target (more critical defense and morale and slightly more avoidances) when even a champion got 70% mitigations in full dps mode and yet above 20% parry.
    My suggestion, give us back aggression gambit, or something to allow us get more aggro than just our damage, or we would just need to increase aggro multiplier to at least 5-6x instead of what it is right now.
    My feelings: Warden is in a really terrible place. They can't compare to captains, champions or guardians in tanking, and they are worst class at dpsing, or at least not situable for these battles, because for Epic Battles enemies die way before you can stack dots, and require direct damage that we're missing; and for common instances, with best luck we can deal only around 1/2 dps than most hunters, and that's sad. We're just like an squishy offtank for enemies that are not going to be hit and anything else is just a waste of time.

 

 
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