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  1. #1
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    So... Helms Deep - Ettenmoors

    Whaddya think? Have anyone tried it out? Or atleast checked it out? I realise its still early, but I know some that would dive in the very first hour lol.

    Questions:
    Are Freeps op?
    Are Creeps op?

    Is there balance?

    Have trolls come down from the Ettenmoors?

  2. #2
    The situation will probably play out much like the last level cap increase. Only with even more insanely inflated stats to compensate for a fundamental lack of caring about PvP in Lotro.

  3. #3
    Haven't fought very many freeps yet, but when i have ive won 1v1. My spider has a little over 53k health and can take down op CG's, Goldie and others of the like without goin below 50k health. Haven't tried a keep CG yet just for fun. From what i can tell high ranked creeps are pretty strong against other solo foes but thats a limited opinion. Like usual, TIME!!!!......time is the answer......

  4. #4
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    We will know for sure when some dare to venture past GV. I did see a hunter blow up a reaver in a 1v1 with traps. Rumor is yellow line hunters with traps are gonna be pretty wicked. I haven't been online when there was any action really.

  5. #5
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    The Ettenmoors is dead on my server. Creeps are OP, Freeps are OP, there's exploits on both sides and nothing has been updated (armor, chests, etc.)

    Hopefully these things will be corrected in 12.1.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennybo View Post
    We will know for sure when some dare to venture past GV. I did see a hunter blow up a reaver in a 1v1 with traps. Rumor is yellow line hunters with traps are gonna be pretty wicked. I haven't been online when there was any action really.
    That was most likely Tasolas the Great. He was experimenting with yellow line and has become beyond proficient with it. The reaver should win with ease though considering his audacity is outdated and creeps have damage types right now that can't be mitigated by freeps. Hunter still seems to be effective in competent hands though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderban View Post
    The Ettenmoors is dead on my server. Creeps are OP, Freeps are OP, there's exploits on both sides and nothing has been updated (armor, chests, etc.)

    Hopefully these things will be corrected in 12.1.
    Yeah, pvp is botched right now. No reason to make assumptions about which side is OP until the proper changes are made, but hopefully it's balanced as possible.

  7. #7
    Yellow is very potent in capable hands, especially against bad players. Can't tell you how many times I've pwned people with yellow line now just because people haven't learned to not run DIRECTLY TOWARDS the hunter who's doing the very obvious animation several times in a row. I will say it's amusing killing wargs and reavers who are running directly behind me the entire fight though (especially the reavers who don't use resilience).

    Every time I've fought a player who had a chance against me before HD, I am beaten quite easily. Every time I fight a player who had no chance prior to HD, they actually have a chance. It's a learning experience.

    (This is all speaking 1v1)

  8. #8
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    So far I've heard:
    Hunters can wreck.
    Defilers are stronger then ever
    Guard dps was nerfed
    BAs can keep MT up all the time

  9. #9
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    I dunno that I would day Guard DPS was nerfed... In the couple 1v1s I have done, I killed the champs with out too much issue but the guards ripped me apart. Maybe I'm just rusty but I don't think that was the case.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatManDoo View Post
    I dunno that I would day Guard DPS was nerfed... In the couple 1v1s I have done, I killed the champs with out too much issue but the guards ripped me apart. Maybe I'm just rusty but I don't think that was the case.
    I heard it in Glff so I wouldn't know. Guards have some pretty strong skills now so I don't think they are weaker

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Witch0King View Post
    I heard it in Glff so I wouldn't know. Guards have some pretty strong skills now so I don't think they are weaker
    Unless they get rid of that auto-stagger set in the moors, guards will always be pretty strong. Not sure what the BR changes are with their set, but if it isn't changed, guard will be an easy class to play still, even if they aren't that op, they will be easy to play mechanically still because of that; that's why I'll never play mine again, that, and I'm just done with guard after getting Commander , the coolest title and symbol on freepside (and I got it when rank actually was an accomplishment stilll somewhat), officially retired haha!

    I'd just love to see how the guards that relied on auto-stagger would do without being able to land it automatically, it would be a funny sight to watch most of them fight 1v1.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Dec 11 2013 at 03:54 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CatManDoo View Post
    I dunno that I would day Guard DPS was nerfed... In the couple 1v1s I have done, I killed the champs with out too much issue but the guards ripped me apart. Maybe I'm just rusty but I don't think that was the case.
    When I fought u, u were still using shadow dmg, so it was to be expected that u would lose. Idk if u have changed that since then, but shadow wargs with fell-wrought dmg just burst way too much.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    Unless they get rid of that auto-stagger set in the moors, guards will always be pretty strong. Not sure what the BR changes are with their set, but if it isn't changed, guard will be an easy class to play still, even if they aren't that op, they will be easy to play mechanically still because of that; that's why I'll never play mine again, that, and I'm just done with guard after getting Commander , the coolest title and symbol on freepside (and I got it when rank actually was an accomplishment stilll somewhat), officially retired haha!

    I'd just love to see how the guards that relied on auto-stagger would do without being able to land it automatically, it would be a funny sight to watch most of them fight 1v1.
    The good thing about not playing actively is that you start to forget all the people that beat you lol. Think only Vic, Erelb, Eo and Leafold are the only guards who have been able to beat me over and over since I became somewhat adapted to the moors. I've never even considered stagger as a threat, but I am guessing if it comes down to a tie the details really do matter. With the way most people think today it is quite simple to beat them. Most of the new Moors players barely ever use tactics while the older ones use all their stuff. There is a major difference in the details. I remember me and Hedvik had all these fights in RoI and we'd end up draw or left with 200-500 morale.
    I don't really play in the Moors that much anymore. waiting for more freeps, I logged in last week and hit a warden with revenge for 5k, but nothing much was going on.

    I honestly have to say that I prefer the title Overlord over any other title in the game, but there's no way im getting that. Fast or not fast, ranking sucks up more time than anything else. Well..it used to. I spent the whole RoI expansion on getting my BA to r10 and just a week before RoR I got there. Now that was my goal for ranks in this game, honestly I only care about the skins. I kinda want my WL to get to r8 or 11 for the appearances. Might take me a weekend with today's speed lol.

  14. #14
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    Honestly there really isn't enough evidence to tell here. Yellow line hunters are way up but I've heard that some BAs have blown them up with no problem. No one will really know how balanced it is until freeps get their audactiy armour. Then some will trickle back while the rest wait for their 1st ages. I think most folks out there now are just tryin stuff out/ goofing off. I personally wanna try out all my reduced cooldown heals. If I was to play rotations right I should be able to get a quitters off every 35-40 secs, I think it was. So jury is still out, I just hope any "creeps are op" talk gets us nerfed before the freeps are given all their goodies. I'm sure they will still be a little bit ahead of us, as Gunnor says they gotta win most of the time so they keep paying for the vip. As long as I'm not constantly mezzed/stun locked like I was a few months ago, I'll consider it an awesome update.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Witch0King View Post
    I've never even considered stagger as a threat, but I am guessing if it comes down to a tie the details really do matter.

    I like to think that 25% attack duration and slow that can be spammed on a 5 sec cd with 25 second duration (with belt legacy) iis pretty threatening with the set that takes no skill to land it lol, which is hopefully destroyed with the patch. It does matter, trust me. That skill makes all the difference in the world for guardians. What made mad about it is how they made the pvp set auto stagger landing, which gave a handicap to guards that couldn't land it before. That skill used to be the measuring stick of who were the bad guards compared to the good guards when 1v1ing creeps. It was the bread and butter that allowed for the guardian to be able to use their skill rotation to their maximum efficiency being able to attack the opponent faster than they were getting attacked. That's the main reason beside my rank why I stopped playing guard, but I won't play it again anyway; I had a good run tho haha. I look forward to the next group of few guards that will take the moors by storm without auto stagger.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Dec 12 2013 at 01:30 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennybo View Post
    Honestly there really isn't enough evidence to tell here. Yellow line hunters are way up but I've heard that some BAs have blown them up with no problem. No one will really know how balanced it is until freeps get their audactiy armour. Then some will trickle back while the rest wait for their 1st ages. I think most folks out there now are just tryin stuff out/ goofing off. I personally wanna try out all my reduced cooldown heals. If I was to play rotations right I should be able to get a quitters off every 35-40 secs, I think it was. So jury is still out, I just hope any "creeps are op" talk gets us nerfed before the freeps are given all their goodies. I'm sure they will still be a little bit ahead of us, as Gunnor says they gotta win most of the time so they keep paying for the vip. As long as I'm not constantly mezzed/stun locked like I was a few months ago, I'll consider it an awesome update.
    as long this server is riddled with ezmoding BAs it will be hard for hunters. especially since the majority of the BAs on this server permakites with moving target up. I can see why a hunter doesnt want to fight a BA since in a way the BA is like an anti-hunter at any given time.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    I like to think that 25% attack duration and slow that can be spammed on a 5 sec cd with 25 second duration (with belt legacy) iis pretty threatening with the set that takes no skill to land it lol, which is hopefully destroyed with the patch. It does matter, trust me. That skill makes all the difference in the world for guardians. What made mad about it is how they made the pvp set auto stagger landing, which gave a handicap to guards that couldn't land it before. That skill used to be the measuring stick of who were the bad guards compared to the good guards when 1v1ing creeps. It was the bread and butter that allowed for the guardian to be able to use their skill rotation to their maximum efficiency being able to attack the opponent faster than they were getting attacked. That's the main reason beside my rank why I stopped playing guard, but I won't play it again anyway; I had a good run tho haha. I look forward to the next group of few guards that will take the moors by storm without auto stagger.
    Guards now only apply bleeds, thats their new stagger.


    Seeing how they reset audacity once more I am no longer interested with this endless grind. If I ever show up in the Moors it will not be with the intent to play. I have my limits.
    Last edited by Witch0King; Dec 12 2013 at 03:52 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Witch0King View Post



    Guards now only apply bleeds, thats their new stagger.

    Guards still have the skill "Stagger" though. They didn't take away their slow, dumb dumb haha . I know what you're saying though, but stagger is one of the guards most potent skills dating back to even SoA days when OP stance first got introduced. I'm just saying: how easy will it be able to apply? Will they keep the old pvp armor with auto-stagger or will the new one make guard somewhat a challenging class mechanically to play again? Those are the questions I ask haha.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    Guards still have the skill "Stagger" though. They didn't take away their slow, dumb dumb haha . I know what you're saying though, but stagger is one of the guards most potent skills dating back to even SoA days when OP stance first got introduced. I'm just saying: how easy will it be able to apply? Will they keep the old pvp armor with auto-stagger or will the new one make guard somewhat a challenging class mechanically to play again? Those are the questions I ask haha.
    its +15% attk duration, not 25%, the slow is the 25%, and last time I was on BR (less than a week ago) the new set did have auto stagger. So most likely it will go to live on monday.

    EDIT: fk wrong forum accnt, its slayzz

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by LongLiveGreenieNubbers View Post
    its +15% attk duration, not 25%, the slow is the 25%, and last time I was on BR (less than a week ago) the new set did have auto stagger. So most likely it will go to live on monday.

    EDIT: fk wrong forum accnt, its slayzz
    Yeah, I was thinking back to Moria guards when stagger attack duration was still a legacy lol. I made a mistake I meant 25 seconds for 15% attack duration and 25% slow though since the effect legacy still exists and ppl can spam it on a 5 second cd. That's still strong as hell considering you can auto land it. Mechanically though because of that set, guard is still an easy class to play, mechanically. As for their overall strength in the moors, only the updated audacity gear will tell, but I feel like guards will still be a huge threat in the moors because of it. You'll see how much easier it is when you get the gear, Slayzz, if you do.
    Last edited by joshy8910; Dec 15 2013 at 10:33 PM.

  20. #20
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    Stagger has a 5 second cd with a 25 second duration, as you mention. It applies on crit regardless of positioning. Crit caps at 25%. 25% crit is very attainable in HD but even in RoR when 20% was more realistic what I'm about to say will still apply.

    A guard, regardless of set bonuses will always have the stagger debuff up. After the initial application you can use it 5 more times before the duration of the debuff will complete. Each time you use the skill you have at best a 1/4 chance and at worst 1/5 chance to apply the debuff. You have 5 chances to refresh the debuff. With 20-25% crit you could stand in front of your enemy and stagger all day and chances are the debuff will never fall off. Taking into account the fact that in actual pvp you are constantly moving, chances are you will hit your opponents back once in a while even if you dont mean to.


    So basically, any guardian wearing halfway decent end game gear will have stagger up practically all the time regardless of what set bonuses they have or how good they are. In other words, the moors set you love to hate actually does very little in terms of stagger up time



  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse View Post
    Stagger has a 5 second cd with a 25 second duration, as you mention. It applies on crit regardless of positioning. Crit caps at 25%. 25% crit is very attainable in HD but even in RoR when 20% was more realistic what I'm about to say will still apply.

    A guard, regardless of set bonuses will always have the stagger debuff up. After the initial application you can use it 5 more times before the duration of the debuff will complete. Each time you use the skill you have at best a 1/4 chance and at worst 1/5 chance to apply the debuff. You have 5 chances to refresh the debuff. With 20-25% crit you could stand in front of your enemy and stagger all day and chances are the debuff will never fall off. Taking into account the fact that in actual pvp you are constantly moving, chances are you will hit your opponents back once in a while even if you dont mean to.


    So basically, any guardian wearing halfway decent end game gear will have stagger up practically all the time regardless of what set bonuses they have or how good they are. In other words, the moors set you love to hate actually does very little in terms of stagger up time


    You think so, huh? What you're saying is that you want to rely on crit to put on stagger if there wasn't an auto stagger set? Hey genius, you ever hear of crit defence? That would kinda make your plan null and void. The stagger set makes a way bigger difference in terms of stagger application than relying on 1/4 chance of getting stagger on, while taking into account crit defence and relying on rng, as well as taking into account a particular person's movement ability in comparison to another person's. "Hit your opponent in the back even if you don't mean to". I don't even know what to say to this. If your opponent has good movement, is competent and puts slows on you to deny positional, then no, you wouldn't hit your opponent in the back once in a while even if you don't mean to. Stop trying to rationalize the auto stagger gear and its ability to make a guard mechanically easy to play.


  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    You think so, huh? What you're saying is that you want to rely on crit to put on stagger if there wasn't an auto stagger set? Hey genius, you ever hear of crit defence? That would kinda make your plan null and void. The stagger set makes a way bigger difference in terms of stagger application than relying on 1/4 chance of getting stagger on, while taking into account crit defence and relying on rng, as well as taking into account a particular person's movement ability in comparison to another person's. "Hit your opponent in the back even if you don't mean to". I don't even know what to say to this. If your opponent has good movement, is competent and puts slows on you to deny positional, then no, you wouldn't hit your opponent in the back once in a while even if you don't mean to. Stop trying to rationalize the auto stagger gear and its ability to make a guard mechanically easy to play.
    You're so wrong it's not even funny.

    I didn't say this because I assumed it was obvious. Crit is unequivocally a dps guards best stat. If you don't have as much as possible, you're doing it wrong. The fact that it makes stagger application pretty much a non issue is just a happy coincidence.

    I've heard of crit defence. I'm not sure you have though. It doesn't work how you think it works. Crit defence reduces the magnitude of incoming crits. It does nothing about their frequency.

  23. #23
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    Well to get back to the original idea of this thread. Last night was the first night of the new gear. Without us creeps being audacious as we could be and the freeps having only one or two peices of gear, unsure on first ages, it doesn't seem quite that bad. Had 3 vs. 4 in a hostile tr and held out fairly well, until I aggroed all the npcs and couldn't get any healing off cause the 13 or so I had on me kept interrupting me. There could be an issue there that might present a weird problem when the freeps start hugging their beloved npcs. If the threat generation wasn't worked on when they scaled creep healing then I might end up being bugged with npcs on me all the time. Tried to test this out a little bit but was kinda inconclusive. Clockknock ended up with around a half raid and the 7 total I ended up with put up a good fight even with a few FND folks joining in near the end of it.

    Based on all this I'm thinking of a few things that the moors is right now....

    1. Healers for creeps will be needed more now than ever, not sure if defilers got scaled very well on their healing(I'm don't ever play mine so this was just coming with the one who was with me). Freeps dps is pretty good, the morale threshold has been justified. I can see why my quitters is less than 1 min cooldown now and why the rez is a minute also. Probably gonna be using it alot if there is enough WLs in group to keep rezzing WLs. So its gonna come down to gonna have to stack WLs.

    2. New creeps are gonna hate the moors and quit sooner I imagine. 15 levels of audacity and them starting out with one. They will be weaker than ever, so goodbye to new creeps.

    3. Reaver dps still seems good, only had one BA right at the end so couldn't tell much about them.

    All in all I think with enough creeps(hence getting some to come back out) this could make for some good RvR action as long as there are enough healers. Only time will tell though and I like to think I'm optimistic so until say a month from now it will just be testing.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by usernamealreadyinuse View Post
    You're so wrong it's not even funny.

    I didn't say this because I assumed it was obvious. Crit is unequivocally a dps guards best stat. If you don't have as much as possible, you're doing it wrong. The fact that it makes stagger application pretty much a non issue is just a happy coincidence.

    I've heard of crit defence. I'm not sure you have though. It doesn't work how you think it works. Crit defence reduces the magnitude of incoming crits. It does nothing about their frequency.
    I was wrong about the crit defence, I'll admit that. I had a feeling it didn't effect application and was going to edit my post, I later did look into that part, but I forgot about it when I was posting this; forgive my laziness for not reassuring myself. However, if you are relying on crit to land stagger, which will be way less effective relying on crit with good crit defence as you won't do as much damage and not being able to land positional to apply more damage, then you're doing it wrong. So 1/4 of the time you are relying on crit to land stagger to justify auto stagger being a "non-issue" just shows how deluded you are, or are unwilling to admit how auto stagger makes guard mechanically easy. If you wanna see how much of a non-issue not using the auto stagger set is, don't use it, and tell me how well you do without it, relying on your crit damage application that will only be mitigated with good crit defence anyway. Rely away on the RNG for your stagger! I need you to stop justifying the auto stagger set being a non-factor because you rely on 1/4 chance to land stagger without it due to crit, because you're wrong. 100%>25%. Simple math. Like I said, don't use the auto stagger set if you're so good at landing stagger or rely on crit for it, and from fighting you before, you really weren't, you just relied on the crit like because of your bad movement. Least you have the set now!
    Last edited by joshy8910; Dec 17 2013 at 03:40 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshy8910 View Post
    I was wrong about the crit defence, I'll admit that. I had a feeling it didn't effect application and was going to edit my post, I later did look into that part, but I forgot about it when I was posting this; forgive my laziness for not reassuring myself. However, if you are relying on crit to land stagger, which will be way less effective relying on crit with good crit defence as you won't do as much damage and not being able to land positional to apply more damage, then you're doing it wrong. So 1/4 of the time you are relying on crit to land stagger to justify auto stagger being a "non-issue" just shows how deluded you are, or are unwilling to admit how auto stagger makes guard mechanically easy. If you wanna see how much of a non-issue not using the auto stagger set is, don't use it, and tell me how well you do without it, relying on your crit damage application that will only be mitigated with good crit defence anyway. Rely away on the RNG for your stagger! I need you to stop justifying the auto stagger set being a non-factor because you rely on 1/4 chance to land stagger without it due to crit, because you're wrong. 100%>25%. Simple math. Like I said, don't use the auto stagger set if you're so good at landing stagger or rely on crit for it, and from fighting you before, you really weren't, you just relied on the crit like because of your bad movement. Least you have the set now!

    You're right, it's very simple math. You don't seem to know how to do it though. Its a 25% chance, yes, but you're completely ignoring the fact that you have 5 attempts to hit that before the debuff runs out.

    I'm not using the stagger set. I'm actually not using any audacity right now. Given that the trade up is broken, I will probably get the CaB set first. I don't have a problem landing a stagger, I never have, but it seems like you may have if you think this set make it so easy now. The Sovereign Blade set does not make a guard "mechanically easy". Even if you don't need to get behind your target for stagger, you should still be trying to. Auto stagger set does not change the fact that you want to hit your opponents back as much as possible and give up your own as little as possible. That is a mechanic that will always be a thing for all melee classes in every game always.



    People think you were a good guard. I really wish you would stop coming here and spouting this BS about something that makes pretty little difference to actual play.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bennybo View Post
    Well to get back to the original idea of this thread. Last night was the first night of the new gear. Without us creeps being audacious as we could be and the freeps having only one or two peices of gear, unsure on first ages, it doesn't seem quite that bad. Had 3 vs. 4 in a hostile tr and held out fairly well, until I aggroed all the npcs and couldn't get any healing off cause the 13 or so I had on me kept interrupting me. There could be an issue there that might present a weird problem when the freeps start hugging their beloved npcs. If the threat generation wasn't worked on when they scaled creep healing then I might end up being bugged with npcs on me all the time. Tried to test this out a little bit but was kinda inconclusive. Clockknock ended up with around a half raid and the 7 total I ended up with put up a good fight even with a few FND folks joining in near the end of it.

    Based on all this I'm thinking of a few things that the moors is right now....

    1. Healers for creeps will be needed more now than ever, not sure if defilers got scaled very well on their healing(I'm don't ever play mine so this was just coming with the one who was with me). Freeps dps is pretty good, the morale threshold has been justified. I can see why my quitters is less than 1 min cooldown now and why the rez is a minute also. Probably gonna be using it alot if there is enough WLs in group to keep rezzing WLs. So its gonna come down to gonna have to stack WLs.

    2. New creeps are gonna hate the moors and quit sooner I imagine. 15 levels of audacity and them starting out with one. They will be weaker than ever, so goodbye to new creeps.

    3. Reaver dps still seems good, only had one BA right at the end so couldn't tell much about them.

    All in all I think with enough creeps(hence getting some to come back out) this could make for some good RvR action as long as there are enough healers. Only time will tell though and I like to think I'm optimistic so until say a month from now it will just be testing.

    I was beating on a defiler in this one fight. He was just running around and healing stuff without paying much attention to me. I think they're in a pretty good place. You're right that freeps really don't have a right to complain about creeps morale pools (that doesn't really stop them though tbh). 50k isn't much damage for anyone with decent 95 gear/LIs. I wouldnt be surprised if we see low rank creeps getting one shot later on in the xpac when first ages are a thing

    Its going to be heaps rough for new creeps. I ran across two unranked reavers up by Lug. I killed both of them and barely lost 1000 morale. They were so squishy.

 

 
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