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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon_Blackbird View Post
    The bottom line is this - How does Turbine choose which group of people to make happy?
    Easy one. The people that blow the most wage-pack in the store.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferathyr View Post
    Your mythical group of people have been playing the game from the start with that old system therefore they could not logically have been that unhappy about it after playing for that long, it wasn't a system hoisted on to them after they had been playing happily for years there is a difference.
    I'm trying to wrap my head around this post and failing, but I am also very tired so that's probably not helping. I'm not sure why you think people who play right now and are happy are mythical. My point is valid, and it isn't even necessarily about the money. It is a hypothetical question. Let's say the groups of happy vs unhappy are equal and pay equal amounts. Who, then, would Turbine listen to? They can't just flip-flop between the before/after changes to make each group happy or unhappy in turn.

    There are people who quit this game every day, for many reasons, and have done so since the beginning of the game. Some of them return to post their displeasure at the changes and hope that Turbine makes the changes so they will want to play again.

    Has Turbine changed the game because of those people? No. They have not. They have not rescinded the level cap increases. They have not removed the LI 'grind'. They have not retconned the rune-keeper. They have not introduced dozens of gigantic new raids. They have not removed the mounted combat system.

    I am not saying that it's not okay to voice your (generic) opinions, quite the opposite. I'm just trying to remind people that the vocal minority is not a good metric for Turbine to base changes on.
    If you give away gold bars, someone will complain they're too heavy.
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  3. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon_Blackbird View Post
    I'm trying to wrap my head around this post and failing, but I am also very tired so that's probably not helping. I'm not sure why you think people who play right now and are happy are mythical.
    Because you were presenting that group of people as UNhappy before the changes. Or at least that was the implication from what you typed.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon_Blackbird View Post
    I'm trying to wrap my head around this post and failing, but I am also very tired so that's probably not helping. I'm not sure why you think people who play right now and are happy are mythical. My point is valid, and it isn't even necessarily about the money. It is a hypothetical question. Let's say the groups of happy vs unhappy are equal and pay equal amounts. Who, then, would Turbine listen to? They can't just flip-flop between the before/after changes to make each group happy or unhappy in turn.

    There are people who quit this game every day, for many reasons, and have done so since the beginning of the game. Some of them return to post their displeasure at the changes and hope that Turbine makes the changes so they will want to play again.

    Has Turbine changed the game because of those people? No. They have not. They have not rescinded the level cap increases. They have not removed the LI 'grind'. They have not retconned the rune-keeper. They have not introduced dozens of gigantic new raids. They have not removed the mounted combat system.

    I am not saying that it's not okay to voice your (generic) opinions, quite the opposite. I'm just trying to remind people that the vocal minority is not a good metric for Turbine to base changes on.
    But the point is, if all those vocal minorities left, i.e the vocal minority who left because of the grind, then the vocal minority that left due to the level cap increases, and the ones who left due to no new raids etc etc,( and yes they are leaving all evidence points towards a gradual decline in players over the past 2 years or so)eventually your left with no-one, its all well to say its only a vocal minority that dislikes change x,y or z, but if you keep saying that and not catering to them, then you have lost 4 or 5 lots of vocal minorities and then what?

    No game , no business can afford to keep shedding "vocal minorities" without it effecting the silent majorities eventually. So each time the raiders and the pvp'ers and the people who hate the grinds keep complaining and keep getting told to shut up or leave and then do exactly that its just another blow to the people who are saying those very things and they dont even see it, they just want to win a fight on the forums without thinking it will only cause them problems further down the line.

  5. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragoon123 View Post
    now before anyone says anything about how many post's i make or some such about how im a noob im like several player's who do not post often or at all. now onto the topic at hand me myself i do not like the trait tree's as they stand currently i agree that it does take away from the versatility of the game in and of itsself. but another friend of mine did point something out which i personally thought was a good idea. they could have both forms the tree and the buffet. now most would be thinking i am nuts and i am quite liable to agree with them but in this case it does make sense and here is why. now most like the buffet because of the versatility of it and other's like the tree for their own reason's i have not been on as of late and have not had a chance to ask more people then those i talk with outside of the game. but anyway's excuse my off topic rant. now the bonuses such as the damage and other things that are incorporated into the trait tree could stay there while also keeping the open buffet table style that several people do enjoy. instead of the tree's being the foremost of the leveling experience they could be a very nice added bonus to the leveling so that way no one would be left out the people who like the tree's can keep them and the people who like the buffet get it back. yes yes i know most are sitting there thinking that it would take a lot of coding and wasted time and what not to do so and turbine would never go for it. which they would probably be right turbine will not. which in that case hey it happens i do not play as much anymore for the many reason people have listed that they are quitting i still hop on from time to time and play sure i haven't spent any money on it nor am i saying anyone should follow my example that does that do good for you and those that don't good for you as well. as player's we have the choice to stay or to go or in some case's complain or not to complain we have that right as well and i know most of you might disagree with me but that is what it will be or as another saying goes what will be will be. though i am not saying sit there complacent as turbine screw's up their game's or manages to turn their game into something more amazing then what it was when i joined. now back to my idea and onto topic i know most will complain about my rant or try to critique what i am saying and that is your right as it is mine to voice my own opinion. but i think my friends idea could solve the problem of the people complaining
    as for the individual play style's that people keep mentioning i think this cover's that as well after rereading several part's of the forum i have seen it mentioned a few times.

  6. #131
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    Decided I will add my thoughts to this. Haven't read the whole thread so responding to the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oren View Post
    I am really trying to like LOTRO after Helms Deep, but having just got 1 character to 95, am now suffering a lack of things to do and general apathy and groaning at the thought of bringing another toon up from 85. In short, I think you have now killed off the 6 year relationship we have had, you have destroyed the very essence of LOTRO, and the reason we enjoyed playing the game (and being in a position to 'look down on' button mashing, mindless players from far more inferior games!). You have released this Xpac with the minimum of care and attention to detail (it was always the little things that made LOTRO so special), and with the longest list of known faults to date. These points more than any, show that despite the corporate PR smokescreen of player councils, you really have very little respect for 'me as a player', but only 'me as a bearer of a wallet'.
    I am going to have to disagree with your sentiments. As one who had an opportunity to participate in the beta process, I can attest to the exact opposite of what you've said. The developers have given great care to the details of this expansion. Have you seen the amount of detail put into developing the visual aspects? Have you seen how much work went into trying to make the trait trees as good as they are now? With all due respect, it does not sound like we play the same game.

    Also, you are making me out to be a "prophet" when I opined elsewhere that "by the end of the year everyone will have their characters to 95 and complaining about having nothing to do." This isn't a slant against the game... rather it is a slant (if anything) against those who rush through content that took the better part of at least a year to make... make no effort to enjoy it... and end up spinning their wheels. People act like it is a race when it isn't.

    1. I appreciate that you are trying to tell a story, however the linear quest line (ie complete one, be directed to the next that is only active when the first has been completed) has killed any sense of exploration, discovery or free will. If I wanted to run on rails without thinking,I could play a platform game, not a MMO.
    Hello... every story is essentially "linear". You are complaining about something that exists in every book, movie, or any other format in which a "story" is told. Yes, there may be many intricate details... but every story has a basic format that we "demand" be followed so it will "make sense."
    What we all enjoy is the depth of the story... meeting all of the different people who play a part in moving the story along. LOTRO has all of that in heaps... but only if you are willing to slow down enough to notice it.
    If you don't like a story told well, LOTRO is not the game for you.

    2. Crafting material icons for tier 9 exactly the same as tier 8......the fact that someone actually made a decision to do this beggars belief, and brings your wider QA and supervision into question
    This has happened with previous expansions. Some things got carried over until the developers had the time to implement the new things. But, I'm sure you are perfect and none of this ever happens to you!

    3. So Im 95...now what??? I cant PVP as I have no 95 audacity armour. I could do HD....cant quite bring myself to call them 'big battles', as they are just slightly modified skirmishes.....but I didn't even need to level to do these. Go on one of the endlessly advertised Sambrog farms? Hell no, got fed up with those prior to the update when at least I earnt the seals you have stolen.
    There is plenty to do even @ 95. Whether or not you are willing to participate in those activities is your choice... but sitting there complaining you have nothing to do is... disingenuous... at best.

    4. So Im a legendary hero, slayer of dragons, welcome at the tables of Théoden, Galadriel and Elrond......and you would have me inspect toilets, run about after children and .......kill more boars????
    This tells me you didn't even pay attention to the point of the quest from the minstrel in Edoras. You must have missed it in your race to be 95.

    5. What on earth does 'Sic'em' mean??? Is this some sort of redneck joke or something? Certainly not a phrase I think that JRR would recognise.
    Out of all the other legitimate issues you could have mentioned... you mention the name of a skill... something that is a minor issue compared to some other things?
    This is like being the grammar/spelling police.

    So after 6 years, I always thought it would be a rage quit.....never envisaged it would just be a casual and apathetic walking away with just a sight twinge of sadness....
    If this is an attempt at /rage quit, it is a rather poor attempt... not even enough to be worth getting out the popcorn while reading it.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    Decided I will add my thoughts to this. Haven't read the whole thread so responding to the OP.

    I am going to have to disagree with your sentiments. As one who had an opportunity to participate in the beta process, I can attest to the exact opposite of what you've said. The developers have given great care to the details of this expansion. Have you seen the amount of detail put into developing the visual aspects? Have you seen how much work went into trying to make the trait trees as good as they are now? With all due respect, it does not sound like we play the same game.

    Also, you are making me out to be a "prophet" when I opined elsewhere that "by the end of the year everyone will have their characters to 95 and complaining about having nothing to do." This isn't a slant against the game... rather it is a slant (if anything) against those who rush through content that took the better part of at least a year to make... make no effort to enjoy it... and end up spinning their wheels. People act like it is a race when it isn't.

    Hello... every story is essentially "linear". You are complaining about something that exists in every book, movie, or any other format in which a "story" is told. Yes, there may be many intricate details... but every story has a basic format that we "demand" be followed so it will "make sense."
    What we all enjoy is the depth of the story... meeting all of the different people who play a part in moving the story along. LOTRO has all of that in heaps... but only if you are willing to slow down enough to notice it.
    If you don't like a story told well, LOTRO is not the game for you.

    This has happened with previous expansions. Some things got carried over until the developers had the time to implement the new things. But, I'm sure you are perfect and none of this ever happens to you!

    There is plenty to do even @ 95. Whether or not you are willing to participate in those activities is your choice... but sitting there complaining you have nothing to do is... disingenuous... at best.

    This tells me you didn't even pay attention to the point of the quest from the minstrel in Edoras. You must have missed it in your race to be 95.

    Out of all the other legitimate issues you could have mentioned... you mention the name of a skill... something that is a minor issue compared to some other things?
    This is like being the grammar/spelling police.

    If this is an attempt at /rage quit, it is a rather poor attempt... not even enough to be worth getting out the popcorn while reading it.
    Not everybody races to 95, but whether they do or not is their choice. But whether it takes you a couple hours or a couple weeks you're still left with 95 and pretty much nowhere to go.

    I'm 94, been playing for a couple hours after work since release because I'm not thrilled with the expansion, not happy with the balance (or lack of) on the minstrel, the unfinished state of the class, and the content awaiting me in general. What I see in GLFF is people running 3 and 6 mans which were run to death before, people running battles (not nearly as much as you'd think) that don't fill up as quickly as you'd expect, and in general people have gotten grumpier, quieter, and overall less excited about what is here. I saw the minstrel quest - I got the point, just didn't particularly care.

    The graphics and scenery as always are top-notch. The questline is definitely linear and overall irritating to pick up this, clean up that, talk to talk to talk to - this is what I expected when I heard we were to rebuild Hytbold, not level up 10.

    Yes, by the end of the year many people will have nothing to do, not because they rushed but because battles were the only new thing given to us. Running the same scaled thing we did for the last 20 levels isn't new content - it's just more boring grind of been there-done that-got the t-shirt.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    Not everybody races to 95, but whether they do or not is their choice. But whether it takes you a couple hours or a couple weeks you're still left with 95 and pretty much nowhere to go.
    Again, whether or not you choose to engage in the activities available for you to do is all your own choice... but to claim that there is nowhere to go or nothing to do is not correct.
    I can't speak for everyone but my server has seen quite a bit of activity. The only "problem" we run into on occasion is that not all of our friends have reached 95 yet so populating some raids and groups takes longer. I like it that on my server some people are not in a rush to get there.

    I'm 94, been playing for a couple hours after work since release because I'm not thrilled with the expansion, not happy with the balance (or lack of) on the minstrel, the unfinished state of the class, and the content awaiting me in general.
    You say this as if someone is forcing you to sit there and play something you don't particularly like. You make it sound as if... you have to take the cough medicine but it doesn't taste good. Absolutely no one is forcing anyone to sit and play a game they don't like. If I don't like something, I don't make a point of doing it... or at least avoid doing it as often as I can.

    And, that's the thing. There are several people who have made it clear they are not happy with the changes... yet, for some odd reason, they continue to play... and continue to whine about how they don't really like it. If you are really that unhappy, go find something else to do... at least until the game develops to a point when you can return and enjoy it. The game is F2P so you can come back and check things out every so often with no obligation to spend any more money.

    What I see in GLFF is people running 3 and 6 mans which were run to death before, people running battles (not nearly as much as you'd think) that don't fill up as quickly as you'd expect, and in general people have gotten grumpier, quieter, and overall less excited about what is here. I saw the minstrel quest - I got the point, just didn't particularly care.
    How many times do we need to remind people that GLFF is not necessarily an adequate "measure" of anything. Every server is different. On my server, I see a variety of things being run as people decide to take breaks from the quests... or reach 95 and start doing instances to acquire new gear.

    Also, your statement about people getting "grumpier" is a pretty broad assumption. Do you have any way to support this claim? Or are you simply extrapolating your (and a few others) attitude to everyone else? How about we agree to stop making these kind of broad assumptions that no one can really support.

    The questline is definitely linear and overall irritating to pick up this, clean up that, talk to talk to talk to - this is what I expected when I heard we were to rebuild Hytbold, not level up 10.
    OK. Then stop playing MMOs. Complaining about the kind of quests that have been part of MMOs since day one is like complaining about the wind.

    Yes, by the end of the year many people will have nothing to do, not because they rushed but because battles were the only new thing given to us. Running the same scaled thing we did for the last 20 levels isn't new content - it's just more boring grind of been there-done that-got the t-shirt.
    Again, stop playing MMOs if you don't like this stuff. This is an aspect of every MMO where there is a certain amount of repetition. Everyone wanted Turbine to scale older content to make it relevant. Now that it is relevant, people complain that it's the "only thing to do."
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  9. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post

    And, that's the thing. There are several people who have made it clear they are not happy with the changes... yet, for some odd reason, they continue to play... and continue to whine about how they don't really like it. If you are really that unhappy, go find something else to do... at least until the game develops to a point when you can return and enjoy it. The game is F2P so you can come back and check things out every so often with no obligation to spend any more money.
    How exactly is the game to develop to a point where they cant return if they are not to make it clear they are not happy with the changes and why? If all Turbine sees are happy barney posts from fanbois saying everything is rosey how are they to know that there are fundamental things broken with the game that are NOTHING to do with how fast people are leveling or whether they like a particular game system.

    Missing abilities from session play NPCS.
    Legendary traits now impossible to unlock under this new system because the skills required are at the bottom of more than one trait tree.
    NPCs in the Epic Questline that have fallen through the walls and therefore cannot be interacted with.
    Changing spec removing abilties from shortcut bars ever single time making one of the core concepts of spec swapping (able to do it on the go) invalid.
    Questlines that cannot be continued if another player has just finished them (brigands and the workaround listed on the launcher)
    Apprentice crafting tool recipes requiring access to expert level crafting stations

    All of those are bugs, in some cases game-breaking. One of those, the shortcut bar one, has only been admitted to actually being a bug after the constant, in your words "whining" on the forums.

  10. #135
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    No problem ever got solved by ignoring it. An issue stops being an issue when it is solved or when the devs stop hearing it's an issue.

  11. #136

    Wink title of thread

    Had to laugh at the "but"

  12. #137
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    After starting here in closed beta, and playing what most would consider an unhealthy amount over the years, to straining to get into the game to forget about cancer treatments, this last expansion has defeated me. I'm sorry if this hurts a developers feelings, but the whole thing in my opinion was done terribly, and to many great suggestions were ignored.

    I did not buy the expansion after seeing the beta, and at this time, with the exception of the great concerts and community on Landroval, I don't even attempt to log in. I started in the Rohirrim Kinship, I've waited for Rohan proper to get here since day one it seems. The closer we got, the more anticipation I felt. However, that was quickly dashed away after seeing my favorite characters stripped of skills they needed. Yes, I needed them, I used almost everything both of them had. We don't all run with a perfect raid group. I do love "Filidor's Army," it was always a challenge no matter what we did, sometimes only a few of us striking the final blow on a boss. I always loved that us "misfits" had enough skills and flexibility to make up for errors, but that's gone the way of Eorl. I'll be no help to them now, sadly. I'm completely disheartened by all the changes that came out of Helm's Deep.

    I'll not get into details, but it's safe to say, I will no longer support Turbine what-so-ever with my money. I'll just log in, have a dance, say Hello, and log out. Don't get me wrong, as always the areas are a site to behold, it stops there however. I've slept thru BB's to only find, I "won."

    I'm sure some folk like it, and that's all fine. I just don't, and felt to many folk's voices over the years have been ignored to long to claim anything was done, "For the players."

    *tosses a few coppers towards the hat and heads off into the pony to drink HD off his mind*

    ~Beno

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deto View Post
    After starting here in closed beta, and playing what most would consider an unhealthy amount over the years, to straining to get into the game to forget about cancer treatments, this last expansion has defeated me. I'm sorry if this hurts a developers feelings, but the whole thing in my opinion was done terribly, and to many great suggestions were ignored.

    I did not buy the expansion after seeing the beta, and at this time, with the exception of the great concerts and community on Landroval, I don't even attempt to log in. I started in the Rohirrim Kinship, I've waited for Rohan proper to get here since day one it seems. The closer we got, the more anticipation I felt. However, that was quickly dashed away after seeing my favorite characters stripped of skills they needed. Yes, I needed them, I used almost everything both of them had. We don't all run with a perfect raid group. I do love "Filidor's Army," it was always a challenge no matter what we did, sometimes only a few of us striking the final blow on a boss. I always loved that us "misfits" had enough skills and flexibility to make up for errors, but that's gone the way of Eorl. I'll be no help to them now, sadly. I'm completely disheartened by all the changes that came out of Helm's Deep.

    I'll not get into details, but it's safe to say, I will no longer support Turbine what-so-ever with my money. I'll just log in, have a dance, say Hello, and log out. Don't get me wrong, as always the areas are a site to behold, it stops there however. I've slept thru BB's to only find, I "won."

    I'm sure some folk like it, and that's all fine. I just don't, and felt to many folk's voices over the years have been ignored to long to claim anything was done, "For the players."

    *tosses a few coppers towards the hat and heads off into the pony to drink HD off his mind*

    ~Beno
    Sorry to hear about your health issues Deto, all the best in your treatment, I will drink a pint to you myself ( a real one though)

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferathyr View Post
    How exactly is the game to develop to a point where they cant return if they are not to make it clear they are not happy with the changes and why? If all Turbine sees are happy barney posts from fanbois saying everything is rosey how are they to know that there are fundamental things broken with the game that are NOTHING to do with how fast people are leveling or whether they like a particular game system.

    Missing abilities from session play NPCS.
    Legendary traits now impossible to unlock under this new system because the skills required are at the bottom of more than one trait tree.
    NPCs in the Epic Questline that have fallen through the walls and therefore cannot be interacted with.
    Changing spec removing abilties from shortcut bars ever single time making one of the core concepts of spec swapping (able to do it on the go) invalid.
    Questlines that cannot be continued if another player has just finished them (brigands and the workaround listed on the launcher)
    Apprentice crafting tool recipes requiring access to expert level crafting stations

    All of those are bugs, in some cases game-breaking. One of those, the shortcut bar one, has only been admitted to actually being a bug after the constant, in your words "whining" on the forums.
    Can we please stop using that 'fanboi' term - it is, as you probably knew when you decided to use it - incredibly irritating. And I also think the 'whining' term for legitimate complaints has seen its day.

    I'm sure no sensible person has any issue with reporting problems with the game which need a fix.
    The Balrog lives!! Oh, and give MECCG a try.

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000002be0/01008/signature.png]Eladrath[/charsig]

  15. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by trcanberra View Post
    Can we please stop using that 'fanboi' term - it is, as you probably knew when you decided to use it - incredibly irritating. And I also think the 'whining' term for legitimate complaints has seen its day.


    You will have noticed that "whining" was in inverted commas and referred to the player I quoted calling people who do not like game systems as "whiners". Fanboi might be irritating but it accurately describes the "like it or quit" posters:

    Quote from Urban Dictionary : "Someone who is hopelessly devoted to something and will like anything associated with thier[sp] particular thing."

    Quote Originally Posted by trcanberra View Post
    I'm sure no sensible person has any issue with reporting problems with the game which need a fix.
    Try telling that to the "if you don't like it quit" crowd.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferathyr View Post
    How exactly is the game to develop to a point where they cant return if they are not to make it clear they are not happy with the changes and why? If all Turbine sees are happy barney posts from fanbois saying everything is rosey how are they to know that there are fundamental things broken with the game that are NOTHING to do with how fast people are leveling or whether they like a particular game system.
    If something is broken, that is what the /bug command is for. If people are not willing to submit the bug reports like they should, how will those problems ever get flagged for the developers to see? People complain about "broken" things a lot. Yet, how often have those people stopped to submit the bug report?

    Likewise, if you are not happy with something, yes, it is your duty to make it clear that you are not happy. However, there comes a point in time when you have to make a choice whether or not to continue in a situation that makes you unhappy. I am not advocating to have anyone just "like it or leave." But, at some point, you need to make the decision to leave (or not leave). No matter how much you may have enjoyed the game, you need to decide to part ways. I say this as someone who has had to make that decision on multiple occasions. It is not a decision that is pleasant. Quite often, you find yourself looking back wishing you didn't have to make that decision. In fact, there have been a few times when my decision to part ways woke other people up to what was going on... and resulted in changes being made to "right the ship."
    I'd be willing to bet that those who are not happy with LOTRO for one reason or another enough to be willing to leave... and you did so after having said your piece... that might be something Turbine actually takes notice of. There have been other companies who made decisions that a portion of their customer base didn't like. Those customers made it clear they were unhappy and [actually] did take their business elsewhere. Guess what? Those other companies took notice and made changes to bring those customers back.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    If something is broken, that is what the /bug command is for. If people are not willing to submit the bug reports like they should, how will those problems ever get flagged for the developers to see? People complain about "broken" things a lot. Yet, how often have those people stopped to submit the bug report?

    Likewise, if you are not happy with something, yes, it is your duty to make it clear that you are not happy. However, there comes a point in time when you have to make a choice whether or not to continue in a situation that makes you unhappy. I am not advocating to have anyone just "like it or leave." But, at some point, you need to make the decision to leave (or not leave). No matter how much you may have enjoyed the game, you need to decide to part ways. I say this as someone who has had to make that decision on multiple occasions. It is not a decision that is pleasant. Quite often, you find yourself looking back wishing you didn't have to make that decision. In fact, there have been a few times when my decision to part ways woke other people up to what was going on... and resulted in changes being made to "right the ship."
    I'd be willing to bet that those who are not happy with LOTRO for one reason or another enough to be willing to leave... and you did so after having said your piece... that might be something Turbine actually takes notice of. There have been other companies who made decisions that a portion of their customer base didn't like. Those customers made it clear they were unhappy and [actually] did take their business elsewhere. Guess what? Those other companies took notice and made changes to bring those customers back.
    I /bug on live and I beta test at every opportunity. I know others who do the same but I'm sure that doesn't cover everybody so neither of us actually have numbers.

    Where "that point" of continuing is will come at different points for different people. Less than 2 weeks ago I subscribed to EQII and I'm having fun with it and play it daily. But I just finished leveling my broken minstrel to 95 and I'm still working on rep, so I'll continue to slowly work on her. Prior expansions I would spend 6 hours a day during the week and more on weekends playing, leveling, trying new instances - the fact I'm down to a couple a day should say something to Turbine as much as leaving. I tried my captain, got her to level 86, and put her back away because I didn't like the changes and she's not my main. I will continue to play to a much smaller extent than normal and speak my mind in the hopes this game becomes something I can enjoy again. I also don't have to pay to play since I am a lifer, and I lodged my first protest by paying for the expansion with turbine points - something I've never done before. I won't buy more turbine points - something I used to do regularly - and I won't spend money on any aspect of the game because I disagree with the direction its going, and other than my posting that's the only way I have to make my displeasure known. I don't believe leaving has the same effect. You might. But I'm not you so I do what I feel is best.
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  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by trcanberra View Post
    Can we please stop using that 'fanboi' term - it is, as you probably knew when you decided to use it - incredibly irritating. And I also think the 'whining' term for legitimate complaints has seen its day.

    I'm sure no sensible person has any issue with reporting problems with the game which need a fix.
    I never use that term.
    As you can see on the forums there are threads where concerns are raised and other where the game is praised. (rhymed)
    I choose not to visit the ones praising the game to simply troll those who are happy. IF they make a good point I pop in and agree with them.
    I have started many a thread where it started out positive and it ended horribly.
    Example:
    I started a thread a few months ago asking players how they obtained quest buddies in the new open tap world. I was looking to rejoin the game and make some friends outside of my server. I was begging for reasons to play the game since my level 85's were shelved due to a poorly designed loot system. Leveling alts has been a favorite pastime of mine and I enjoy it more than almost any other activity in game.

    I was looking for advice and suggestions. Instead what I got was a group of posters who came into the thread accusing me of trying to get Turbine to re institute Forced Grouping. I neither used the word or insinuated it. But they came. They also came to remind me that there are multiple playstyles in game and that some just do not want to group. They also came to twist my words and make it appear as if I was looking to get open tapping removed. The second sentence in my OP stated I thought it was a good thing but they came again.

    They saw my positive post as a negative one. Even though I'm still playing and I bought HD for 10$ on the black friday sale, after that thread I thought to myself whats the use of coming back? Am I going to run into these types of players in game? Do I even want a quest buddy if thats the case?

    I realize now that the folks who came into that thread are a minority of the playerbase. Most of the people I have met in the last 4 years and recently are good hearted people who just want to enjoy the game. Does that mean I'm going to keep my mouth shut when there's something wrong with the game? No way! The squeaky wheel gets the grease. While unlike my counterparts I don't feel the entire game is trash I think key points should be made to make every playstyle happy. I have made my own points above and was specific with the examples.

    IF you feel like you are being trolled the easiest way to avoid this is not posting on the forums. I took a break for a while when I was trolled about making negative or positive posts about things I felt were not up to snuff, or that I liked. The road goes both ways. You make a positive post and people do not agree. I make a negative post and people do not agree. I think addressing my key points instead of just saying I'm a whiner or a troll is more noble. Also note I have posted over 400 times so this is no dummy account. My purpose here is to express my own opinion. I discourage trolling that goes either way.
    Last edited by Minquinn; Nov 29 2013 at 12:26 AM.

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    Also, you are making me out to be a "prophet" when I opined elsewhere that "by the end of the year everyone will have their characters to 95 and complaining about having nothing to do." This isn't a slant against the game... rather it is a slant (if anything) against those who rush through content that took the better part of at least a year to make... make no effort to enjoy it... and end up spinning their wheels. People act like it is a race when it isn't.
    Some people are used to the way they played the game for several years -and (not coincidentally) played it for years because they liked it. Odd how that works, eh? I played just about every day for longer than I care to say and rarely ran out of things to do until the past 2 expansions. I'm not playing this one. The same was true for my kin, who are also largely not playing this one. The changes they started making with RoI regarding itemization put the first nail in the coffin. Open looting pretty much sealed that puppy shut for us. I'm not saying this is an absolute negative, rather just something that snowballed for us, affected our overall enjoyment of the game and got us to think more about the whole picture.

    So while I can understand your call to be appreciative of the work that went into this, it doesn't mean I (or anyone else) is mandated to appreciate the quality or context of the work. Such are the ways of free will and personal judgement - you have yours and I will certainly have mine. If Turbine can no longer keep people of certain niches occupied for long periods of time, that's the person's fault? I don't think so. It might mean the game is no longer for those types of people, but it's hardly their fault. Plenty of MMOs have ways of keeping large number of differently-styled players engaged long-term. LotRO used to be one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    Hello... every story is essentially "linear". You are complaining about something that exists in every book, movie, or any other format in which a "story" is told. Yes, there may be many intricate details... but every story has a basic format that we "demand" be followed so it will "make sense."
    What we all enjoy is the depth of the story... meeting all of the different people who play a part in moving the story along. LOTRO has all of that in heaps... but only if you are willing to slow down enough to notice it.
    If you don't like a story told well, LOTRO is not the game for you.
    This is your opinion. Even though I played the game primarily to raid, I am also a pretty big Tolkien fan and always read every quest the first time through. It started going south with Enedwaith and continued from there. My opinion, yes. I won't claim it to be objective truth the way you have, even if it's true for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    This has happened with previous expansions. Some things got carried over until the developers had the time to implement the new things. But, I'm sure you are perfect and none of this ever happens to you!
    You sure have a snarky tone, don't you? I certainly feel the overall quality has steadily gone downhill with every expac along the timeline. Not so much with raids, but certainly with the Epic line and landscape questing. Not to mention the bugs, performance, support, the community on the whole.... the game at large, basically. My opinion, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    There is plenty to do even @ 95. Whether or not you are willing to participate in those activities is your choice... but sitting there complaining you have nothing to do is... disingenuous... at best.
    Agreed. It could be better put, "I have nothing fun to do." At least then you couldn't say he was wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    This tells me you didn't even pay attention to the point of the quest from the minstrel in Edoras. You must have missed it in your race to be 95.
    If the game doesn't engage people, they won't be engaged. Brilliant, eh? Someone who races to level-cap really doesn't have any right to complain about issues of engagement - assuming their sole purpose is to get to 95 as fast as possible. But you know, I probably raced to every level cap since 65. Raced according to your probable terms anyway - but I still read the quests and found enjoyment and immersion up until RoI when I started to feel like the quests weren't engaging me as much. I didn't care to soak it in as much because substance was lacking. I started feeling farther and farther removed from LotR and more like some errand boy being tasked with mundane activities in the name of leveling-up. 10 levels every year is too much and they can't create engaging leveling content for me with the pace they are trying to keep. Again, my fault? No. What did I do? Decided to abstain. Did I complain? You betcha. Wouldn't you?

    Opinions are like, uh, you know. I love when people take the time to try to prove them wrong.
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  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    I never use that term.
    As you can see on the forums there are threads where concerns are raised and other where the game is praised. (rhymed)
    I choose not to visit the ones praising the game to simply troll those who are happy. IF they make a good point I pop in and agree with them.
    I have started many a thread where it started out positive and it ended horribly.
    Example:
    I started a thread a few months ago asking players how they obtained quest buddies in the new open tap world. I was looking to rejoin the game and make some friends outside of my server. I was begging for reasons to play the game since my level 85's were shelved due to a poorly designed loot system. Leveling alts has been a favorite pastime of mine and I enjoy it more than almost any other activity in game.

    I was looking for advice and suggestions. Instead what I got was a group of posters who came into the thread accusing me of trying to get Turbine to re institute Forced Grouping. I neither used the word or insinuated it. But they came. They also came to remind me that there are multiple playstyles in game and that some just do not want to group. They also came to twist my words and make it appear as if I was looking to get open tapping removed. The second sentence in my OP stated I thought it was a good thing but they came again.

    They saw my positive post as a negative one. Even though I'm still playing and I bought HD for 10$ on the black friday sale, after that thread I thought to myself whats the use of coming back? Am I going to run into these types of players in game? Do I even want a quest buddy if thats the case?

    I realize now that the folks who came into that thread are a minority of the playerbase. Most of the people I have met in the last 4 years and recently are good hearted people who just want to enjoy the game. Does that mean I'm going to keep my mouth shut when there's something wrong with the game? No way! The squeaky wheel gets the grease. While unlike my counterparts I don't feel the entire game is trash I think key points should be made to make every playstyle happy. I have made my own points above and was specific with the examples.

    IF you feel like you are being trolled the easiest way to avoid this is not posting on the forums. I took a break for a while when I was trolled about making negative or positive posts about things I felt were not up to snuff, or that I liked. The road goes both ways. You make a positive post and people do not agree. I make a negative post and people do not agree. I think addressing my key points instead of just saying I'm a whiner or a troll is more noble. Also note I have posted over 400 times so this is no dummy account. My purpose here is to express my own opinion. I discourage trolling that goes either way.
    Sadly this always happens on any forum to do with anything.

    People write positive posts amd if some one dares disagrees, they get told they are not welcome, stop derailing the thread, stop whining, if your not happy sell it/stop playing (depending on what forums about), stop posting negative things in positive threads etc.

    Yet when someone starts a constructive thread explaining why they dislike or are unhappy with something, a few fanboys (usually the same ones complaining if you write in their threads) think it's their right to ignore virtually anything you are actually saying and spout the same few things over and over again which always ends up with any thread that starts off constructively, being closed or deleted due to the few fanboys derailing it and turning it into a slanging match.

    I've read most of the threads on here and it amazes me how someone can go into detail explaining why they are nor happy with something, then a few posts later someone else responds in a way that is 100% obvious they haven't read (or taken in) a single word anyone in the thread has actually said.

  21. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    Oh golly, they sure did do something different - namely they completely restructured the way you interact with the world. The class revamps are nothing short of erasing the memory and acquired skill-sets of 6+ year-long players and forcing them to learn to play a game they've been playing for 6+ years with half the skills. That's fun?

    I will not bother getting into a semantic discussion of what "instance" means. Suffice to say, there is a healthy segment of present and past LotRO players who do not view Epic Battles as anything resembling the instances they came to know and love. A veteran player should not need to learn to love a game they've been playing for so long...



    Where your leader is at in the game has nothing to do with anyone other than your leader. You make a moot and completely irrelevant statement there.
    In the past, people would rush to level cap to begin acquiring the items needed to be better equipped for the end-game - where they wanted to be - where the game started for them. This is not yours to say - where people should want to be and what they should or shouldn't want to do.

    Whether there were instances waiting there for them or coming a couple-few months down the road is irrelevant. In the current iteration of the game, your itemization is completely irrelevant, as the end game is more about earning yet another set of skills to do things like load the ballistas faster, not fight, heal, tank or support. This is not the end-game lots of people anticipated and it is not the end game a healthy chunk will stick around for. Lots of players did not want another gimmick that will be abandoned after HD is a year-old memory...




    The alternatives are limitless, really. The level cap is raised primarily in order to drive people to the Store. It's not my place to claim any fault in this on their part, as they are running a business, but it is my (and anyone's) place to choose to abstain from it. There are many many other games around that don't raise the level cap on a yearly basis, but rather modify itemization and other game systems to allow further progression. Many of these games are also quite successful in doing so. This system works easily as well as the artificial level-up system in that it still allows older content to be made easier with new items. But it is quite obvious that LotRO is no longer an MMORPG, so I guess there's no use in my making such comparisons. LotRO, with their 10-levels per year, completely invalidates the bulk of gear you spent the last year acquiring - and this obsolescence happens in as much time as it takes you to gain 4-5 levels.



    I think your last suggestion is probably the best, as you're naming the few available things for the OP to do at level-cap and my hunch is the OP doesn't care for that to be "end game". Just like many of us have decided running the 4th iteration of the School and Library sort of loses its luster after 4 years... and Sambrog is a name not to be uttered.
    He never mention class revamps so that's why i didn t refer to them. But if i was to refer to them then that would be one more new and different thing that he ll have to master. And thats one more reason why his Op statement is wrong. There are new things to do to this game! That's what my disagreement was. Now if you want to take it to the point of how much it sucks the new content and how dissapointed you are, IS ANOTHER STORY. Personally i dont agree but i wont fight over it since many believe it so.

    As to the thing about my leader you are right in two things. First it was a ad example or more precisly it gave the wrong message. My leader is my friend. And it was a simple example of many people who dont rush. Nothing to do with leader position. The second right you said is that everybody can play however they want and its not in me to say. BUT when you complain because you are the super awesome player who done the content in 3 days and now you want to complain about it its your problem. How much these people work and how many to bring all these up ( even if they suck) and you ask for more. GO give them some millions to hire more so you can play more. We say that to ourselves also. "Ah if i was not so hasty now i would have more". Thats what i said.
    Last edited by Pelethor; Nov 29 2013 at 07:00 AM.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    I never use that term.
    As you can see on the forums there are threads where concerns are raised and other where the game is praised. (rhymed)
    I choose not to visit the ones praising the game to simply troll those who are happy. IF they make a good point I pop in and agree with them.
    I have started many a thread where it started out positive and it ended horribly.
    Example:
    I started a thread a few months ago asking players how they obtained quest buddies in the new open tap world. I was looking to rejoin the game and make some friends outside of my server. I was begging for reasons to play the game since my level 85's were shelved due to a poorly designed loot system. Leveling alts has been a favorite pastime of mine and I enjoy it more than almost any other activity in game.

    I was looking for advice and suggestions. Instead what I got was a group of posters who came into the thread accusing me of trying to get Turbine to re institute Forced Grouping. I neither used the word or insinuated it. But they came. They also came to remind me that there are multiple playstyles in game and that some just do not want to group. They also came to twist my words and make it appear as if I was looking to get open tapping removed. The second sentence in my OP stated I thought it was a good thing but they came again.

    They saw my positive post as a negative one. Even though I'm still playing and I bought HD for 10$ on the black friday sale, after that thread I thought to myself whats the use of coming back? Am I going to run into these types of players in game? Do I even want a quest buddy if thats the case?

    I realize now that the folks who came into that thread are a minority of the playerbase. Most of the people I have met in the last 4 years and recently are good hearted people who just want to enjoy the game. Does that mean I'm going to keep my mouth shut when there's something wrong with the game? No way! The squeaky wheel gets the grease. While unlike my counterparts I don't feel the entire game is trash I think key points should be made to make every playstyle happy. I have made my own points above and was specific with the examples.

    IF you feel like you are being trolled the easiest way to avoid this is not posting on the forums. I took a break for a while when I was trolled about making negative or positive posts about things I felt were not up to snuff, or that I liked. The road goes both ways. You make a positive post and people do not agree. I make a negative post and people do not agree. I think addressing my key points instead of just saying I'm a whiner or a troll is more noble. Also note I have posted over 400 times so this is no dummy account. My purpose here is to express my own opinion. I discourage trolling that goes either way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glumposneak View Post
    Sadly this always happens on any forum to do with anything.

    People write positive posts amd if some one dares disagrees, they get told they are not welcome, stop derailing the thread, stop whining, if your not happy sell it/stop playing (depending on what forums about), stop posting negative things in positive threads etc.

    Yet when someone starts a constructive thread explaining why they dislike or are unhappy with something, a few fanboys (usually the same ones complaining if you write in their threads) think it's their right to ignore virtually anything you are actually saying and spout the same few things over and over again which always ends up with any thread that starts off constructively, being closed or deleted due to the few fanboys derailing it and turning it into a slanging match.

    I've read most of the threads on here and it amazes me how someone can go into detail explaining why they are nor happy with something, then a few posts later someone else responds in a way that is 100% obvious they haven't read (or taken in) a single word anyone in the thread has actually said.
    Well said, both of you.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    You sure have a snarky tone, don't you? I certainly feel the overall quality has steadily gone downhill with every expac along the timeline. Not so much with raids, but certainly with the Epic line and landscape questing. Not to mention the bugs, performance, support, the community on the whole.... the game at large, basically. My opinion, of course.

    If the game doesn't engage people, they won't be engaged. Brilliant, eh? Someone who races to level-cap really doesn't have any right to complain about issues of engagement - assuming their sole purpose is to get to 95 as fast as possible. But you know, I probably raced to every level cap since 65. Raced according to your probable terms anyway - but I still read the quests and found enjoyment and immersion up until RoI when I started to feel like the quests weren't engaging me as much. I didn't care to soak it in as much because substance was lacking. I started feeling farther and farther removed from LotR and more like some errand boy being tasked with mundane activities in the name of leveling-up. 10 levels every year is too much and they can't create engaging leveling content for me with the pace they are trying to keep. Again, my fault? No. What did I do? Decided to abstain. Did I complain? You betcha. Wouldn't you?

    Opinions are like, uh, you know. I love when people take the time to try to prove them wrong.
    I sniped for brevity. Truer words were never spoken.
    I find it humorous myself that people think we race to 95. With crafting xp, vip bonus, and the rate at which quests give xp it's hard for regular players to not already have 1 or 2 level 95's already. My highest toon is 88. But I've only played three times and for 2 hours each since the cap was set at 95. Some of the full time players in our kin are working on a third level 95. It's only 10 levels and they move so much faster than they did years previous. These were the same players I beat to level 85 and did it in 6 days. It seems to me these folks got to 95 in about 4 days, maybe less. Is that the fault of the player or a system that rewards xp for being afk and smelting ore or cooking pies?

    The numbers only prove to me it's less content with more xp awarded. And these players aren't playing for 8 hours a night either.

    As for the endgame I can't speak on that yet. I'd rather level up with quests reach 95 then do EB. I would hate to be sick of it at level 86 and see no point in doing them. It's also my understanding that the EB loot is as random as the random loot system we got in the last xpac.

    YEah that worked great the first time! It's pretty much why I left the game for 2 months after Wildermore hit. Well that and after seeing that a guy can survive being thrown halfway across a zone is good storyline? Bad loot design should be a concern for players of all playstyles since HD offers everything for all playtypes and not just raiding or grouping. I have expressed my opinion on this in several threads only to be told it is better than the old system by fellow players. If it is how come 95% of the loot I obtained was either meant for a cappy (I play a guard), or resulted in relics and bounties.

    There's no race to 95. There are players who are super casual and just can't understand that we enjoy playing for more than 2 hours a night . It's ok because I believe the same people say you can play the game anyway you want, unless you do it differently than me.
    Last edited by Minquinn; Nov 29 2013 at 09:01 AM.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    Big Battles ignore peoples class choices way to much, a guard cant tank , LMs cant cc (or dps as everything dies before inductions go off), healers cant heal, its all about dps,
    Yes and no. Classes do bring different things. A guardian traited for tanking CAN tank, those forced aggro skills are the only thing that will cause most of the enemies to focus on the guardian instead of the NPCs, which is a very useful ability to have in epic battles. Similarly an LM can debuff things still lowing incoming damage, put down sticky oil to slow down enemies, and that makes the defense of the major attack points much nicer. Plus LM has a pet and can put it on aggressive stance, which I do on my captain. Not the greatest damage but it's handy. Healing I agree feels too small but I'm dps traited so that could be some of the problem; you can only do single target heals though, the big group heals won't help. Hunter run speed buff is very useful for some things; rune keeper damage rock is helpful; champion AoE is very useful; burglar riddle is useful (though in general single target melee has problems); and so forth.

    So each class does have things to help out that not everyone has, though these aren't always traditional roles. Overall the epic battles aren't as dumb and simple as early NDA reports seemed to imply; you can not just stand there and win, I've actually outright lost one of them even after working hard on the defense. Granted they're not traditional instance style, or even skirmish style (which also had 11 out of 12 players doing only damage in a skraid). The big drawback I see is they really aren't as solo friendly as implied as you do much better duo, and if you only solo it will be very difficult to earn points to improve your big battle roles (is this the new forced grouping?).

  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by podgie_bear View Post
    There is no such thing as positive critiscism, lol. If you are critiscising it is because you think something is wrong.
    That's actually not true. Criticism can be about telling someone what is good. Ie, movie critics or restaurant critics are not always about tearing something down (those wannabe hipsters on yelp are not critics). Describing the things in the landscape of West Rohan that looks great is indeed criticism based on the definitions of the word.

    So negative criticism is about focusing only on the faults while ignoring the merits; positive criticism would be the opposite. There should be criticism in the middle, any honest critic would see both good and bad. Also to be real criticism it should be somewhat articulate as well.

    As for players commenting here while playing Rift, if they have paid for Lotro and want to play it again in the future then of course they should be here commenting. Or are you saying that since they have stopped playing for now because they are not happy with what has happened, that they are not allowed any interest in the game and are never allowed back again?
    This was just a knee jerk response at me because over they years I just see too many players essentially saying, between the lines, that they left the game and that we should leave it too because it sucks. I also don't pay attention to who is saying what when I read the forums, I honestly don't remember anyone's ratio of positive to negative posts. My issue was not with the negativity of the post but with what looked like advertising/recruiting for another game.

 

 
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