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  1. #1

    Please open the hood on threat changes

    There is a lot of speculation, but I'd really appreciate some facts about how threat is generated now. I've heard something about a multiplier to our damage. How/when does such a multiplier take place? Only when specialized in blue (for wardens, guards, champs, and cappys?)? Only for certain skills? what exactly is the multiplier? One of the justifications for changing the threat system was that the old one was pretty ugly if you could actually see whats going on. If it has been cleaned up, can we get a clear explanation of the new mechanics?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beltharas View Post
    There is a lot of speculation
    a lot of what we've said on the forums has been facts figured out either by testing in beta or by devs telling us or in beta builds we could see what was happening. it's not just speculation.

    for a start check this thread: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...g-Threat-in-HD

    I've heard something about a multiplier to our damage. How/when does such a multiplier take place?
    if you spec
    • Blue warden
    • Yellow captain
    • Blue champion
    • Yellow guardian
    • Blue guardian
    you get a 300% multipler on all damaging skills to generate additional aggro. so 100damage generates 300aggro, while players who are not spec into those lines just generate 100aggro with 100damage

    Only for certain skills?
    all damaging skills generate this additional aggro. "all" includes dots or reflects (whether or not you applied it to yourself) too.

    this does not include healing.
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  3. #3
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    It's substantially more transparent now, although I still find it slightly baffling that the note about the 300% Threat Generation passive was taken off the tank spec UI. The effect is still there, of course, but I don't know why they chose to unpublish the number like that.

    Forced Attacks also need better in-game documentation, too.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Beltharas View Post
    There is a lot of speculation, but I'd really appreciate some facts about how threat is generated now. I've heard something about a multiplier to our damage. How/when does such a multiplier take place? Only when specialized in blue (for wardens, guards, champs, and cappys?)? Only for certain skills? what exactly is the multiplier? One of the justifications for changing the threat system was that the old one was pretty ugly if you could actually see whats going on. If it has been cleaned up, can we get a clear explanation of the new mechanics?
    Having the lowest AoE damage of all those tanking specs, that gives warden the worst AoE thread.

    How to solve this? Improve warden AoE. Or give us one of our thread leeches back.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    BTW Bobha, you need to edit that post to say Assailment STANCE javelin skills while traited Determination, to prevent confusion with A$$ailmnet TRAIT skills.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    BTW Bobha, you need to edit that post to say Assailment STANCE javelin skills while traited Determination, to prevent confusion with A$$ailmnet TRAIT skills.
    I added in to a Q+A as I wan't sure how to word it perfectly.

    ofc it doesn't matter which stance you are in to generate the addition aggro, just that you are specced blue.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    I added in to a Q+A as I wan't sure how to word it perfectly.

    ofc it doesn't matter which stance you are in to generate the addition aggro, just that you are specced blue.
    Ok.. still trying to wrap my head around the threat changes. And, since your thread there now seems to be all we will get from Turbine on that topic. (BOO HISS. we were promised a Dev Diary on the threat changes somewhere. I just cannot find the post. Just like I cannot find anything official on the 300%. (I have re-read the dev diaries for HD and swear they seem to have been tweaked and sanitized of the word "threat", except for Guardians.) That is pretty lazy for a change in core mechanics like we have here. Especially compared to Turbine's four (err five) posts on Big Battles.)

    (BTW, I know wardens love to just start their own threads, but maybe we could pick this thread and use it to focus our problems with threat? Not have 15 threads going on the threat problems?)

    We used to have wardens that tested how much threat to DPS ratio existed, with numbers. How come I have not seen a word of those kinda threads?

    Which is the way Defiant Challenge threat works? (Our only real threat skill. Numbers are pure theoretical.)
    1. Fire off and you get 300% of the threat of the highest person in group. (Say Champ has done 3100 x 3 Raging Blades and gets aggro. Warden has 1K DPS. Warden fires DC and gets 30900 (27,900 + 3000) threat.)
    2. Fire off and you get +300% of the threat of the highest person in group. (Or times 4) (Say Champ has done 3100 x 3 Raging Blades and gets aggro. Warden has 1K DPS. Warden fires DC and gets 40200 (27900 + 9300 + 3000 ) threat.)
    3. Fire off and you get 300% of the threat of the entire group. (Say Champ has done 3100 x 3 Raging Blades, mini has 2000 heal threat and Hunter has a 6K Headshot. Warden has 1K DPS. Champ gets aggro. Warden fires DC and gets 50,900 (27900 + 2000 + 18000 + 3000) threat.)
    4. Fire off and you get +300% of the threat of the entire group. (Or times 4) (Say Champ has done 3100 x 3 Raging Blades, mini has 2000 heal threat and Hunter has 6K threat. Warden has 1K DPS. Champ gets aggro. Warden fires DC and gets 67,200 (37200 + 2000 + 24000 + 4000) threat.)

    (Mini heals would be just threat, so not x 3)

    From what Bobha has said, option 2 is the case. Correct? See, my understanding of +300% is, warden has threat, fires off DC and get what threat he has, plus the 3x the highest in group. Bohba's appears to be, warden fires off DC, warden gets, what he has, what champ has plus 3x what they have. When this stuff was first announced, I read it was a catchup on the entire group, not the highest in the group.

    In all of those cases, on paper, a warden should have a significant threat lead. However, from what is being posted, in numerous threads that is not happening.

    (BTW, autosave just prevented a rant on the forums screwing up. I at least got some of my original post back, when I hit post and I went to the main forums page.)
    Last edited by Darlgon; Nov 24 2013 at 09:19 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    I cannot find anything official on the 300%.
    I know it's sad us just saying "trust us" but that exact number were shown in beta. they removed it (no idea why) for a text based explination which isn't as good at explaining things.

    but to prove this a little, I'll post some details of a test with my skirmish buddy.



    (BTW, I know wardens love to just start their own threads, but maybe we could pick this thread and use it to focus our problems with threat? Not have 15 threads going on the threat problems?)
    we can try XD but people getting worked up, been trying to empathise and calmly try and explain facts without pushing my own opinions XD

    We used to have wardens that tested how much threat to DPS ratio existed, with numbers. How come I have not seen a word of those kinda threads?
    I did about 9 full tests in beta, 4 of those I published, unfortunately I wasn't aloud to post these to live because of the weird NDA-drop (not aloud to publish stuff BEFORE the NDA drop) and I really cba to do them in full again.

    Which is the way Defiant Challenge threat works? (Our only real threat skill. Numbers are pure theoretical.)
    I *think* your getting mixed up between the passive bonus to dps aggro and the match-up mechanic.

    the match-up is 120% so if a champion takes aggro from you at 100,000 damage done, you fire off defiant challange, you now have 120,000 aggro.

    taunts do 2 differant things though depending on if you have aggro or not. the match-up happends if you don't have aggro, I *think* the multipler pops in when you don't. however, tests in beta were kinda inconclusive with using taunt when you didn't have aggro. I made a few assumtions on it but it seems since it went live the mechanics of that end have changed so we would need to test it again.

    again, gimme a sec I'll post some tests here and maybe prove these facts for you to see.
    Last edited by bohbashum; Nov 24 2013 at 09:55 AM.
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  9. #9
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    so here are 2 tests ^_^

    proveing passive aggro, all I did was trait blue and a little down.



    so you can see I did 1k damage and she took at 3k damage. it actually might be a bit off as I procced a few heals sorry. so ~300% seems about right. either that 300 or 250 maybe.

    from there I used defiant challange, note any damage I did from here was from the reflect.



    so taking off the 1k damage I did before I only did ~300 from reflecting. yet she did another 3k over her previous 3k.

    so 120% of the 3k I took from her should be around 3.6k, 2.4k is now unaccounted for. 1k for reflect and thats why I assume the other effect on taunt is an additional 300% on damage, turning that 300 reflect to 2k aggro via 600% aggro multipler would make it even. the 400 aggro unaccounted for now could be the heals I procced

    replicated this test is pretty much the same results. 120% match up, +300% dps multipler for a while

    ofc I'd want to do more tests to prove it and don't take this as fact, more of a theory, but it seems to be the way it's working (or close).

    when I have more time where I don't mind number crunching I'll try and do more tests :P
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  10. #10
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    Just to clarify something: The screenshots show the moment at which you *lost* aggro, right?

    Only mentioning it because the spider is attacking your skirm soldier, and I don't want people to conclude "Aha! The passive threat/Defiant Challenge doesn't work!" when that's not what you're trying to show.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Just to clarify something: The screenshots show the moment at which you *lost* aggro, right?

    Only mentioning it because the spider is attacking your skirm soldier, and I don't want people to conclude "Aha! The passive threat/Defiant Challenge doesn't work!" when that's not what you're trying to show.
    yeah, I tried to get the screenshot as soon as I lost it hence why on the first screenshot she hadn't lost health yet.
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  12. #12
    Thank you for the test - really appreciate your time doing it. So there are no immediate threat enhancing skills/gambits; just a 300% multiplier to dps and a 120% catchup with DC. Any thoughts/info on how heal threat works? If I use my gold 85 earring that adds 25% threat from heals is it still effective? Any reason to think that the 300% multiplier does not affect heal agro as well as damage?

  13. #13
    If healing agro is not multiplied... Well, that makes me sad, but still doesn't piss me off as much as the following:

    I haven't done any proper numbers calculations but here is the fact I have to observe every time I tank. Every single target gambit gives me considerably higher amount of agro than those of area effect. Simple as that, eg, I do resounding challenge for roughly 3k dmg and that is Not enough to hold agro against 1-2 skills of a dps'er. Same goes to Resolution and EoB, and you know, they do some damage now compared to pre-update situation.
    On the other hand, single precise blow (around 1k) grants me agro to withstand first series of attacks of a champion. Spear of virtue, preservance, wall of steel and all the other singel target gambits do their job just fine and it's imposible to lose agro using them.

    How can it be that a bigger hit gives you less threat? It's simply impossible now... in theory. Is multiplier for aoe gambits broken or maybe it's just me? Tested this quite a number of time on Sambrog - do resounding and lose agro in no time, do smth else and hold it with death grip.
    Basically now I'm tanking the way it used to be in Mirkwood - hit one, hit that one, hit thaaat one with sp-fs gambits, and leaches/resounding when got free masteries.


    Your observations and thoughts on the matter?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    so here are 2 tests ^_^

    proveing passive aggro, all I did was trait blue and a little down.



    so you can see I did 1k damage and she took at 3k damage. it actually might be a bit off as I procced a few heals sorry. so ~300% seems about right. either that 300 or 250 maybe.

    from there I used defiant challange, note any damage I did from here was from the reflect.



    so taking off the 1k damage I did before I only did ~300 from reflecting. yet she did another 3k over her previous 3k.

    so 120% of the 3k I took from her should be around 3.6k, 2.4k is now unaccounted for. 1k for reflect and thats why I assume the other effect on taunt is an additional 300% on damage, turning that 300 reflect to 2k aggro via 600% aggro multipler would make it even. the 400 aggro unaccounted for now could be the heals I procced

    replicated this test is pretty much the same results. 120% match up, +300% dps multipler for a while

    ofc I'd want to do more tests to prove it and don't take this as fact, more of a theory, but it seems to be the way it's working (or close).

    when I have more time where I don't mind number crunching I'll try and do more tests :P
    Thanks for the work Bohba.

 

 

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