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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Occum View Post
    I'm OK with the new system. I didn't think I would be, but I can see the logic behind it now that I've tried it out for a while. Granted, I've only been playing my lvl 84 runekeeper so far.
    One thing that seems odd, however, is that I trait in "solitary thunder" so I'm a walking lightning-bolt. But when on my warsteed, all the damage is fire-based.

    [edit] - and now I actually use food made by my cook, and potions made by my scholar, since I don't have as much self-healing. But what is the point of woodworkers still being able to make rune-keeper parchments?
    It's going to depend on how you play your character on rather or not you like the changes most likely.

    If you are someone who enjoyed doing multiple roles at once you are probably not going to like them. If you are someone who liked to concentrate on a single role, then you are probably going to be alright with it.

    But I just don't see the point of it. Why alienate multi-role players with such an un-needed change? It accomplished nothing of worth in my opinion and was a waste of time to implement.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Nov 26 2013 at 03:17 PM.

  2. #52
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    I hear a lot of "they made it too easy/faceroll" about the new trees, but also a lot of "I have to choose trees now and can't use all my skills"...Aren't these mutually exclusive? From what I've seen so far since launch, forcing us to choose a particular tree (and let's face it, they ARE forcing us) has made it more difficult from a tactical perspective. In other words, you either need to be really confident in your build or you had better slow down and re-trait before you storm into that next mob or group of mobs. My experience (so far) has been one of being more engaged in what's happening around me as I plan my next move and this has been a very positive experience. The thrill of defeat...
    So far, I've played my Captain, Hunter, Champion and just ran with my Loremaster last night. All solo on landscape mostly through Angmar/Moria epic lines with the exception of my Cappy who's just arrived at Edoras. I really enjoyed rebuilding my toons through the trees as I felt that I had more choice in my build vs. the "old" system where we all had the same skills and just differed on our selection of legendary traits. Less skills at my disposal means I better get it right or I'm in trouble. That's not a faceroll in my books. (The OP DPS in the current release is a faceroll, but that's already been well-discussed on these forums and will obviously be changing soon-ish)
    Yes, we lost some skills. Maybe even a lot of skills. From that, we lost "in-combat" versatility. But I see that as a challenge and am embracing it for just that. Without trying to enrage anyone, my ears are hearing a lot of complaining that our previously OP toons (my opinion) are now less OP. For at least a year or two people have been saying the game was too easy (at least on landscape). I think the trees will reduce the OP nature of our characters by forcing us to specialize within each class; maybe even forcing us to learn the various roles better. And we still have the option of traiting for any situation as we see fit (DPS/heal/tank/Single target/AoE/etc), so there's still flexibility out there. It's just that now we're forced to make hard choices, just like the devs hinted at months ago.
    Do I miss my old skills? Of course. This is change after all.
    Is this challenging? Minus the overpowered DPS, I see it as being challenging with much more chance of failing depending on how we read each situation.
    From now on, fail to plan = plan to fail.
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  3. #53
    I've played MMOs for a long time and rarely see this level of QQ when game systems change. Changes like this are a fact of life in gaming and especially MMOs. They changed up my class in SWTOR countless times. I didn't just throw my hands up, say "well this is stupid" and take my rant to the forums over it. Change is hard sometimes, but if you are that bad at handling change, you probably shouldn't play MMOs. The majority of the complaints seem to be "I'm locked into one role and can't do anything else". Huh??? I can swap between a tank spec and DPS spec on my Guard at will. I can swap between a heal spec and DPS spec on my RK at will. Between fights, I can go from awesome at tanking to awesome at DPS. Before I could go from awesome at tanking to just okay at DPS unless I went to a bard. Which would have taken a good 5 minutes to port back, change up my traits and get back. How is the new system worse? I can change virtues on the fly too.

    Fewer builds? That was sort of the idea. They don't want classes being able to do everything in one spec. That's the whole point. Don't like it? Well, it's their game so it's their rules. And they're not going to change it back over a few complaint threads. Maybe it's unpopular with some people, but that doesn't mean they made the wrong choice.

    You can embrace the things your character can do now have fun with the game. Or you can continue with the wistful longing for "what it used to be" and be miserable. Accept it and play, or move on. The choice is easy for me.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cupelixx View Post
    I've played MMOs for a long time and rarely see this level of QQ when game systems change. Changes like this are a fact of life in gaming and especially MMOs. They changed up my class in SWTOR countless times. I didn't just throw my hands up, say "well this is stupid" and take my rant to the forums over it. Change is hard sometimes, but if you are that bad at handling change, you probably shouldn't play MMOs. .
    But why not take it to the forums? Truth is it IS stupid to a lot of us (myself included). Just accepting change for the sake of change makes no sense.

    The trait trees solved nothing and delivered nothing of worthy significance to any of LOTRO's game-play aspects and alienated players who like to mix it up. It was a pointless uninteresting waste of time to implement. That is unless it was just some scheme to lure players into buying more trait specs from the store. Which I strongly suspect that's what it really was.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Nov 26 2013 at 08:54 PM.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    But why not take it to the forums? Truth is it IS stupid to a lot of us (myself included). Just accepting change for the sake of change makes no sense.

    The trait trees solved nothing and delivered nothing of worthy significance to any of LOTRO's game-play aspects and alienated players who like to mix it up. It was a pointless uninteresting waste of time to implement. That is unless it was just some scheme to lure players into buying more trait specs from the store. Which I strongly suspect that's what it really was.
    Granted. That's your opinion and you are entitled as such. But they didn't make changes just because they could. They saw things happening in their game that they didn't approve of. What we have now is the result of what they deemed an appropriate fix. There are people who like the changes and people trying to get it changed back. It's barely been a week and there hasn't even been a balance patch yet. Instead of doom & glooming, settle down and give it a chance. Play an alt or another game if they "broke" your character. I've played a few of my characters (none maxed yet) since the trees got put in. The qualities of each spec feel the same to me, regardless of the skill changes.

    The point being, they will make balance changes. They will not put the old system back. Voicing displeasure is one thing, but...don't hold your breath.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by morgstir View Post
    I feel like I just worked for years on a character and they took away all that. I've been playing since 2007 have three accounts and I feel cheated. I ground those deeds, made those levels only to see my toon stripped of everything, given some amount of points they deem fair and told I have to buy all the things I just worked so hard to earn.

    And I don't "specialize." I like to play a balanced character, always have. Now I'm told that I can't do that unless I spend twice the amount of points???? And of course they'll start offering us the ability to buy our trait points through the store.

    Bah! Just another way to make money. This may kill the game for me, after all these years I may just stop playing all together.
    Tell me about it. I've been playing for 5 years and it seems all the major changes to the battle systems have been in the direction of dumbing down the game. This game use to be interesting and diverse. End game instances were better fought using different armor sets depending on the mobs inside. You could learn how to use very different skills at different parts of a battle to fully realize the potential of a class. Now its just like "oh you rolled a tank but now want to take the place of a champ? here, fill out this line and hit these 4 buttons! Oh, damage types too confusing for you? sorry about that; let me just eliminate a few for you. Oh, you're still having trouble pwning everything in site? No, no, you don't have to actually get better. Use this easy button!"

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cupelixx View Post
    Granted. That's your opinion and you are entitled as such ... Instead of doom & glooming, settle down and give it a chance.
    I have an idea! Why don't you take your own advice?

    You know what? I'm a quick learner and I gave it a chance. I don't like it. Period. YOU will just have to deal with the fact I don't like it, and when the discussion comes up (which it will for a long time to come) I will chime in yet again with the aspects I don't like about it.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danricc View Post
    Tell me about it. I've been playing for 5 years and it seems all the major changes to the battle systems have been in the direction of dumbing down the game. This game use to be interesting and diverse. End game instances were better fought using different armor sets depending on the mobs inside. You could learn how to use very different skills at different parts of a battle to fully realize the potential of a class. Now its just like "oh you rolled a tank but now want to take the place of a champ? here, fill out this line and hit these 4 buttons! Oh, damage types too confusing for you? sorry about that; let me just eliminate a few for you. Oh, you're still having trouble pwning everything in site? No, no, you don't have to actually get better. Use this easy button!"
    Bingo! What we are seeing is the Turbinized "one size fits all" and they think the average player has the intelligence of a lump of clay. There used to be challenges through out the game, but they have all gotten nerfed over the years until we have the game as it stands now. Simplified classes that use at most four buttons and landscape fights that fall over dead from a sneeze. We don't even have to go loot their corpse anymore; it's already packed neatly into our bags. Before long the classes will just have one skill to use ... GIMME! All you'll have to do in an encounter is hit that button and all your opponents will fall over.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cupelixx View Post
    Granted. That's your opinion and you are entitled as such. But they didn't make changes just because they could. They saw things happening in their game that they didn't approve of. What we have now is the result of what they deemed an appropriate fix. There are people who like the changes and people trying to get it changed back. It's barely been a week and there hasn't even been a balance patch yet. Instead of doom & glooming, settle down and give it a chance. Play an alt or another game if they "broke" your character. I've played a few of my characters (none maxed yet) since the trees got put in. The qualities of each spec feel the same to me, regardless of the skill changes.

    The point being, they will make balance changes. They will not put the old system back. Voicing displeasure is one thing, but...don't hold your breath.
    But what problems did these new skill trees supposedly fix?

    As far as I'm concerned none at all. In fact all they did was create new ones.

    Now I'm not claiming they "broke" anyone's character. They aren't that bad. But they aren't really good either. Like I said, the whole thing was just unnecessary.

    I'm pretty sure it was just a scheme to make money at the store and are hoping players will purchase additional specs so they have an optimal trait build for every situation. Unfortunately for them they messed up with the hot-bar variables though

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhivi View Post
    I have an idea! Why don't you take your own advice?

    You know what? I'm a quick learner and I gave it a chance. I don't like it. Period. YOU will just have to deal with the fact I don't like it, and when the discussion comes up (which it will for a long time to come) I will chime in yet again with the aspects I don't like about it.
    Relax, it wasn't a personal attack. You liking it or not has no effect on my enjoyment of the game, so I don't care what you decide to do with it. My point that you quoted out of context was to allow some time before throwing your hands up and declaring the changes stupid. Remember, this has only been live for a week. Are there performance issues with some of the trees? I'm certain there are. But it takes time to fix those issues in a game like this. Give them a chance to fix the problems with a balance patch.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    But what problems did these new skill trees supposedly fix?

    As far as I'm concerned none at all. In fact all they did was create new ones.

    Now I'm not claiming they "broke" anyone's character. They aren't that bad. But they aren't really good either. Like I said, the whole thing was just unnecessary.

    I'm pretty sure it was just a scheme to make money at the store and are hoping players will purchase additional specs so they have an optimal trait build for every situation. Unfortunately for them they messed up with the hot-bar variables though
    For better or worse, they reason they gave is that class roles were too homogenized and they wanted the roles separated. I'm not endorsing the changes or defending their choice. I'm saying they made a choice that they believed was in the best interest of the game. Unless there's a severe backlash like 50% of VIP players dropping or something, they're not going to put it back. They are going to know if some class/spec combinations are underperforming or if things are out of whack and they'll have a patch to address the issues. It's only been live a week. I may not agree with their reasons for making the changes, but I understand them. I didn't think my Guard needed any help with performing his role, but it's not my choice. So I will go with the flow and see what happens as the subsequent patches follow.

    The point about the quickbar issue is true though. It's an annoyance that should have been fixed by launch and I hope is fixed soon.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    I'd like one person to show me the abundance of threads started asking for the reduction in skills or begging for a skill tree.
    Actually, there have been quite a few threads over the years with people complaining about too many skills (i.e. filling up 3+ tool bars). That's part of the reason Turbine started doing more "skill upgrades" when Moria arrived instead of adding Even More New Skills.

    However, I certainly agree there wasn't any outcry for trait trees. So why do it? I can think of a several potential reasons:


    1. It's become the defacto standard in recent MMOs, and they want people who come here from other MMOs to feel at home with it.
    2. Fewer skills does allow them to make each one more impactful, which is another complaint people have had over the years.
    3. There may be "system designer" reasons, such as making it easier for them to balance over time or reducing the coupling between game systems. No idea if this is true or not, but it's possible.

    I also understand why people don't want this game to do a mind meld with others out there - it provides them one less reason to stick with this one. One of the reasons people play one game over another is because the one they've selected provides them with something they simply cannot get elsewhere. A Tolkien setting is a big one here, but it's not the only one.

    Anyway, on that 3rd reason... that one can sometimes explain why game companies will do stuff nobody asked them to. The massive changes SWG went through had absolutely nothing to do with what players wanted, but they had to do it anyway. Why? Because they'd built a system so complex and fragile that it was all they could do to even keep it running. Any little change broke several other things, and the coupling between systems (plus complexity-driven defects) was killing them. So they "simplified". Lots. They ripped out some sections of code and rewrote it with a simpler spec: fewer moving parts, fewer defects, fewer unintended consequences for changes, and far more extensible.

    Khafar

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar;7019163There may be "system designer" reasons, such as making it easier for them to balance over time or reducing the coupling between game systems. No idea if this is true or not, but it's possible.

    [B
    Khafar[/B]
    Turbine stated that the complexity and difficulty in modifying issue is the driving force for completely rewriting the hate point, threat and aggro system in Lotro as part of the Helms Deep update. In the process this system has been greatly simplified.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    Turbine stated that the complexity and difficulty in modifying issue is the driving force for completely rewriting the hate point, threat and aggro system in Lotro as part of the Helms Deep update. In the process this system has been greatly simplified.
    But there are other games that have far more complex trait trees, with far far more class diversity and options,with just as complicated if not more complicated combat systems than lotro pre HD, yet they manage to provide much better quality raids/dungeons and instances, so if they can do it why cant Turbine? I just do not buy this whole notion that they had to gut out the classes and simplify them in order to make future content, for the very reason I just stated, everyone else does it without any problems, so it wasnt that raids and instances could not be made with the classes as they were, its that TURBINE could not make raids and instances with the classes as they were.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    if they can do it why cant Turbine?
    Well, you don't know how painful some of that stuff is to balance, maintain and extend for other companies. Nobody knew SWG was on the verge of having to gut and rework entire systems on a live game until they did so. They kept hacking/patching it with duct tape and twine, then slathering some nice paint over it to keep it looking presentable, but one of the developers I know who was working there at the time said it was a complete nightmare for them.

    In any case, "other games" are irrelevant - MMO software systems are some of the most complex you'll ever see, and every one is quite different. Something which might be easy for LOTRO could be horrific for another game, and vice versa. SWG never admitted what was going on with their architecture issues and buggy system in public, because it was "dirty laundry". Turbine won't either, to the extent that's happening here. But if that is what's going on, there will never be any thought of "going back". Just trying to get the newer/simpler system more fun over time.

    Khafar

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Well, you don't know how painful some of that stuff is to balance, maintain and extend for other companies. Nobody knew SWG was on the verge of having to gut and rework entire systems on a live game until they did so. They kept hacking/patching it with duct tape and twine, then slathering some nice paint over it to keep it looking presentable, but one of the developers I know who was working there at the time said it was a complete nightmare for them.

    In any case, "other games" are irrelevant - MMO software systems are some of the most complex you'll ever see, and every one is quite different. Something which might be easy for LOTRO could be horrific for another game, and vice versa. SWG never admitted what was going on with their architecture issues and buggy system in public, because it was "dirty laundry". Turbine won't either, to the extent that's happening here. But if that is what's going on, there will never be any thought of "going back". Just trying to get the newer/simpler system more fun over time.

    Khafar
    I don't buy their "balance" argument in the least.

    This game doesn't even remotely approach "balance". It hasn't in years. And it certainly isn't "balanced" now. In fact it is even less "balanced" today than it was under the old system. So how on earth can they justify implementing this newer system in order to achieve "balance"?

    I have to solo group content at higher tiers to even have a monster live a few seconds against me... let alone actually hurt me. I literally cleared past the first boss in a 6 man instance on par with my level the other day without a single point in either of my LI's or a single point into my trait trees by my lonesome. So I would suggest that if anything is just "slathering some paint" over something it was definitely these new skill trees. They don't even begin to address this game's issues.

    What is broken about this game is the fundamental stats of the content itself. That is where the imbalance is. It wasn't in the class system, skills... or anything else. The problem is their enemies are scaled in such pathetic fashion anyone who has the capability to click a skill will destroy them.

    The classes aren't imbalanced or over-powered. The content is just under-powered.
    Last edited by Jeremi; Nov 27 2013 at 07:58 PM.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    But there are other games that have far more complex trait trees, with far far more class diversity and options,with just as complicated if not more complicated combat systems than lotro pre HD, yet they manage to provide much better quality raids/dungeons and instances, so if they can do it why cant Turbine?
    You will be hard pressed to find a more complicated application that a multiple server - multiple client - world wide - real time application like a MMORPG that handles thousands of users that need to interact with each other all at once. Every one of them is unique with its own strengths and weaknesses. So comparing games does not accomplish much. Even when you talk about different games by the same company - often they will have different capabilities - strengths and weaknesses caused by fundamental decisions that resulted in a different core.

    None of these companies like to talk about their weaknesses which make it very costly to make improvements to a fragile feature. The company refuses to make improvements. In other cases, the company decides the product can't move forward unless we do something about it. You get a major revision that results in a massive change in operation often with a lot of simplification.

    One key metric is how much has the code been messed with. You have an aggro, threat and hate system that goes back to pre game launch. It is what 8 years old. Turbine made dozens of live updates that impacted this system. The feature gets excessively fragile and complicated internally. Where I work as software engineer these kind of features get a major rewrite from scratch every 3-5 years. Some of functionality is lost because it is determined to be not worth keeping. Takes a lot of code. Not used heavily. Difficult to get right.

    It is good thing that Turbine is doing these kind of core and fundamental changes. A company only does these changes when they see a number of years of more updates, new features and content. Otherwise the company moves into the final operational phase where only simple changes are done to the product. We have some final development phase products. We do not make any significant changes to these products. A new feature like Big Battles would never be approved.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Well, you don't know how painful some of that stuff is to balance, maintain and extend for other companies. Nobody knew SWG was on the verge of having to gut and rework entire systems on a live game until they did so. They kept hacking/patching it with duct tape and twine, then slathering some nice paint over it to keep it looking presentable, but one of the developers I know who was working there at the time said it was a complete nightmare for them.

    In any case, "other games" are irrelevant - MMO software systems are some of the most complex you'll ever see, and every one is quite different. Something which might be easy for LOTRO could be horrific for another game, and vice versa. SWG never admitted what was going on with their architecture issues and buggy system in public, because it was "dirty laundry". Turbine won't either, to the extent that's happening here. But if that is what's going on, there will never be any thought of "going back". Just trying to get the newer/simpler system more fun over time.

    Khafar
    Other games are not irrelevant, other games take your customers when they do things better than your game.

  19. #69
    Rorrin...I agree with you 100%! The trait trees are BS.

    I would gladly pay a premium for a version of the game as it was before helms deep. Turbine....think of the money making opportunity here, consider giving us the old pre-trait tree version for more $$.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by morgstir View Post
    I feel like I just worked for years on a character and they took away all that. I've been playing since 2007 have three accounts and I feel cheated. I ground those deeds, made those levels only to see my toon stripped of everything, given some amount of points they deem fair and told I have to buy all the things I just worked so hard to earn.

    And I don't "specialize." I like to play a balanced character, always have. Now I'm told that I can't do that unless I spend twice the amount of points???? And of course they'll start offering us the ability to buy our trait points through the store.

    Bah! Just another way to make money. This may kill the game for me, after all these years I may just stop playing all together.
    very well said agree totally
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  21. #71
    At this point the most apt comparison that I can think of is Star Wars: NGE, albeit with less deception (please look it up if you don't get the reference).

    This fundamentally alters the game, and I really think it may just have killed off my small group of 6 or so friends who've been together since the beginning of the game.

    No one I know is logging in anymore, and this is still the early days of the expansion - I should see them on every night.

    I've played MMO's for years starting with EQ, so I learned early on that nothing is ever safe in an MMO, but I think this will be a breaking point for a lot of people.

    Big Battles are not fun, they're an undisguised grind with no tangible benefits other than getting better at doing them?

    We have new abilities for classes affecting groups in some interesting ways, but nothing that we can really use them properly other than old scalable content we were bored with a year ago.

    Trait trees is not the issue - content is - I have a whole new tank line that's basically useless in Big Battles because everything pretty much ignores me.

    I can literally see no point to getting 95, as all I'll be doing is the same things I'll have done all the way up.

    I already gave up my VIP, I think my login time will be next.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    OK, but it's a game, and players do constantly talk about "all my hard work". Yet it's not "hard work". It's play.

    It's not like they changed your college major 3 years into a 4 year degree, or anything else terribly serious. Anyway, my point remains - the ultimate standard is whether it's fun or not. If it is, most people will make the adjustment in a reasonable period of time. If not... people will leave. Turbine's developers are betting their jobs that more people will like it this way than not.

    Khafar
    Do you even "play this MMO?" Just because someone plays a game does not mean they can't work at it.

    Most call them built in grinds. Grinds are all "hard work" and there is little to nothing remotely like play or fun about them.....

    Or better yet go grind out a maxed Farmer and come back tell me how much Non-work fun you had doing it.
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  23. #73
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    I haz a derp :3

    It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.
    By Charles Darwin: these words are so very true, SO I think we gotta give this tree trait system a chance.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReadStar View Post
    It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.
    By Charles Darwin: these words are so very true, SO I think we gotta give this tree trait system a chance.
    This isnt life, its a game.In life species have no choice but to adapt if they dont they die, in a game we have a choice, in fact right now in the gaming world there have never been so many choices.

    But as you brought up Darwin and evolution, you may know that just because a species changes doesn't mean it will survive, sometimes the change does exactly the opposite and just speeds up the inevitable extinction.

  25. #75
    Is this the thread where we say what we think about the trait trees? cause if so: yeah, hate them with a passion, looking at other games. Cheers!

 

 
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