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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlancoFallowhide View Post
    My two main characters are a warden and captain, two classes that seem to have been changed more significantly than some others if the QQ on the forums is to be believed. I've never liked trait trees in any game since I start trying to work out all the permutations and it gets overwhelming. Would you mind posting a screenie of your trait set up that you find "a very nice DPS/heal hybrid" please? That would at least be a great place for me to start and I'm sure others would appreciate it too.

    Thanks in advance!
    I should be able to post something over this weekend. Hopefully I don't forget.
    [CENTER][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/tindragon/Base.png[/IMG]
    Steam: Sneakeh Snake[/CENTER]

  2. #27
    Captains really lost their focus on buffing. You barely have any buffs you click to cast at this point. Minis got a real buff line (even though they bored it down).

  3. #28
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    Right, because the only buffs that count are the ones you have to click on.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  4. #29
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    Bucks County PA
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    I was not happy with the changes to the Captain class from what I read pre HD but I felt it was best to reserve judgement until I had the chance to try it out.
    I agree with the OP that the class has lost it's uniqueness. It has also lost the versatility for a hybrid class.

    Now, the type of buffs that are applied are determined by your specialization choice and are mostly gated by other skills.

    Tactics buffs: Gone
    Muster Courage self heal with trait : Gone (as far as I can tell)
    I understand the desire by some players to reduce the need to buff a raid party but it was every half an hour. Hardly something that was game breaking.

    I always felt that the Captain class was very survivable pre-HD. I wasn't worried about survivability with the class changes.
    A rock is very survivable but is not a lot of fun to play.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Right, because the only buffs that count are the ones you have to click on.
    Problems with proc buffs:
    1) Don't necessarily feel like you are buffing.
    2) They are pre-determined by trait line
    3) Since there is no opportunity cost, proc buffs are usually weaker than click buffs.
    4) Proc buffs (if based upon crit or % to occur) don't necessarily trigger when you need them.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by taynardo View Post
    I'm with you, Krakenheim. Captains used to be unique - to be able to make a fellowship into more than the sum of its parts.

    I haven't had a chance to really push this new tank-spec, or this new healing-spec ... they look like they might work out, but I don't know ... and in any case, would it really have hurt the game balance to let us keep that versatility?

    --T--
    It isn't just that we have lost our uniqueness, but with the 2 point penalty for traiting out of line we are forced to trait the same way. Every blue line cappy will pretty much be the same, every yellow line will be the same and every damage line will be the same. No room for creativity.

    I have played all three lines, and tank actually is the one that plays most like an old cappy, to me. I have the right brother skill, I have last stand, In Harms Way and Shield of the Dunidain. The mobs stun on the defeat cry like old red line. The only odd things I that I get aggro (cappy can do that? LOL!) and I don't have shadow's lament. I was generally a healing cappy but often ran red line to do so, unless it was T2C raid then i'd go blue.

    I agree that they couldn't see beyond the three: healer, tank, DPS. I am curious to see if I can heal a 6 man. If I can I will continue to play my cappy, because I love to heal. Cappy won't be my main anymore. *sigh*

    Claira
    Cappy Clairawen, 100 on Landroval
    Alts:
    Amberlorli 100 RK~Seawen 100 Mini~Axin 100 Champ~Poppywood 100 Hunter~Hannalorli 100 Guard~Flairin 100 Burg~Dovewen 60 LM~Emmeera 40 Warden~ Arctika 15 Beo

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by BillBones View Post
    Problems with proc buffs:
    1) Don't necessarily feel like you are buffing.
    2) They are pre-determined by trait line
    3) Since there is no opportunity cost, proc buffs are usually weaker than click buffs.
    4) Proc buffs (if based upon crit or % to occur) don't necessarily trigger when you need them.
    Points (2) and (3) are contradictory. The fact that buffs are predetermined by trait line is exactly where the opportunity cost of your buffing comes from.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  8. #33
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    Not to mention that the third point is absolutely false, if we're talking about our Tactics. The primary effects given by each is as strong as ever, and they've all gained two or three additional effects that increase their potency further.

    This is a direct result of being turned from click buffs into proc buffs. In a properly balanced game, something that's fire-and-forget can never be as powerful as something that's triggered by a specific chain of events and needs periodic in-combat refreshing.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dunford View Post
    Muster Courage self heal with trait : Gone (as far as I can tell)
    No. Still there I believe.
    "I am dreading the publication, for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." (J.R.R. Tolkien)

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunford View Post
    Tactics buffs: Gone
    Just changed. Active buffing instead of passive.
    Muster Courage self heal with trait : Gone (as far as I can tell)
    Still there. Blue line, roughly half way down. I personally skip this trait.
    I understand the desire by some players to reduce the need to buff a raid party but it was every half an hour. Hardly something that was game breaking.
    Half an hour if nobody died, and it required making an entirely different LI just for effective buffing.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillBones View Post
    4) Proc buffs (if based upon crit or % to occur) don't necessarily trigger when you need them.
    Since people already hit the other three points, I'll just point out that the buffs proc 100% of the time, if you use the skill when you're supposed to. (Sure Strike on Battle-readied always gives the tactics buff.)
    [CENTER][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/tindragon/Base.png[/IMG]
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Just changed. Active buffing instead of passive.

    Still there. Blue line, roughly half way down. I personally skip this trait.

    Half an hour if nobody died, and it required making an entirely different LI just for effective buffing.


    Since people already hit the other three points, I'll just point out that the buffs proc 100% of the time, if you use the skill when you're supposed to. (Sure Strike on Battle-readied always gives the tactics buff.)
    Thanks for the info on Muster Courage. Obviously I missed that. I still haven't tried ALL of my alts/classes since HD so my experience is limited, but I think the basic game play of the Captain class has been modified more so than the others I have tried.
    I think it will take more time and experimentation to obtain the best build for my preferences. I will always miss the ability to buff players outside of fellowship but the changes are not going to go away so I'll just keep experimenting.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I don't like the penalty, but understand why it's there, especially since you only need 26 points to get the capstone trait ina given line.

    Without that restriction, we'd essentially be running around LtC spec'd, with the red and yellow capstones and all of the low hanging fruit in the blue tree.

    We'd be the most OP freep class ever.
    What a Freep ? What that has ever to do with Overpower ?

    Unless you take that lousy excuse for PVP in the moors seriuosly...

    Or worst the DEVs take that into consideration when designing the classes (which is probabbly and saddly true) !!

    Anyway as this is now: EVERY class is OP compared to existing content.

    But thay couldnt change the system and not giving ppl BIG NUMBERS (Damage, Heal, Morale, etc) because ppl would complain about NERFS.

    So most ppl wont complain at stupid things like game fun, and capt just lost the fun

    I do love when we are treated as 5 years old Kids.
    "Baruk Khazad !" shouts the dwarf at the fallen orc before he hits him with his HAMMER !!!
    A sign of all good things to come... :(
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/07206000000008d58/01000/signature.png]Adrazor[/charsig]

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Just changed. Active buffing instead of passive.
    It is active, if by active you mean making the buff automatic provided you follow the prescribed attack rotation. And that isn't particularly interesting. I could imagine a bunch of things the developers could have done to make the buff more active than that. Here are a couple:
    • Make the buff its own active skill that has a cost associated with using it. Some ideas for costs:
      • Consume the Battle-Readied state
      • 3-second induction
      • High power cost
      • Deplete the Light of Elendil debuff on your target.

    • Give the player a choice of which buff to apply at any given moment. Some ideas about how to achieve this:
      • Have 2 (or more!) melee skills that can proc a unique Tactics buff during Battle-readied state. Each melee skill produces a different buff that overwrites the other one.
      • Make the Tactics buff a defeat event skill where you need to choose among various tactics buffs.

    • Heck, even the old tactics skills were more active than the current deal. You had to choose to use them, and you had to choose among them. Their only problem was that the choice was too easy to make. But that was a problem that could have been solved by merely changing what each buff did.


    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Half an hour if nobody died, and it required making an entirely different LI just for effective buffing.
    Buffing after every wipe could get tedious.

    The LI issue could have been solved by a change to the LIs. We requested such a change repeatedly over the years.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakenheim View Post
    Hi

    Well for me its simple Captain were the most versatile of all clases "Good at nothing, bad at everything" (you could do anything at any time, but will do it worst than a specialist) but now it seems we are just "Bad at one thing, cant do nothing else" and this is NOT an improvment.

    Im not complaining about game balance here, I dont do PVP and little to no Raiding I belive the solo content will be as "difficult" (lol) as before but the class did lost its flair to me.

    The devs cannot see beyond the "holy trinity" (Heal, DPS, Tank) and the game suffers, Captains not having a specific Role suffer more, and if the excuse is that its hard for new players.... we all were new players once... I think.

    A friend is complaining about that the Minstrel looks like a WoW healer now, no fun either (never played one for real so cannot say) but I thought Minstrel was also very versatile and able to do a lot of diffrent things on the run, now Im told hes also limited.

    I know you can have 3 Trait trees but it seems you will not be able even to take on 2 Banner skills at once, and to get all the Marks you'll have to spread thin.

    Dont like it at all simple (contrary to the saying) is not better its simple more limitative.
    Personally I felt as though it changed a lot from SOA to MOM and to most of the expansions/major changes after that. But I'm not so sure you're going to find the class uniqueness you're wanting in lotro again.

    here's an analogy. what is the worst thing a restaurant can do? Try to make every style of food. what's the best thing a restaurant can do? make a few items excellently, and consistently. now compare quality and consistency to lotro. it's trying to do all these things that world class MMO developing teams do, but with a literal fraction of their assets. if lotro were a restaurant, it would be the old school SoA captain. jack of all trades, master of none, or however the saying went.

    It attempts to generate content like a high end developer, charges similarly to a high end developer, maintain an equivalent number of classes as a high end developer, keep it balanced, generate positive revenue, generate/keep generic MMO features, and so on. oh, and they don't really specialize in any particular type of content. I might give them skirmishes, but there's raid, solo, small group, large group, PVP, and PvMPvE content, and all these in a setting that is rigorously in line with literary lore. have i missed anything? (i'm getting somewhere here)

    Suddenly the polish of uniqueness gets lost in the maze of making the game function (i.e. does your game work and how well), which lotro has historically demonstrated is a constant struggle from the beginning. An endless struggle of diverting resources. And I would argue that keeping your class in a cryogenic tube most likely diverts resources away from where they matter in the end (relative to lotro).

    My argument relies on assuming that uniqueness is more "polish" than "core competency", so i'm not saying you're wrong to expect uniqueness from MMOs or wrong for complaining about it. I'm more saying that asking for what you want is like expecting the mom and pop's shop down the street to have a steak with the size, tenderness, and juiciness of the best butcher in town, every night. unfortunately, you aren't Dave with the nice haircut and attire whom the mom and pop's store will give the best cut. You're Krakenheim with the VISA ending in 7304.
    Kraken, Thesungodra

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by IGolbezI View Post
    Personally I felt as though it changed a lot from SOA to MOM and to most of the expansions/major changes after that. But I'm not so sure you're going to find the class uniqueness you're wanting in lotro again.

    here's an analogy. what is the worst thing a restaurant can do? Try to make every style of food. what's the best thing a restaurant can do? make a few items excellently, and consistently. now compare quality and consistency to lotro. it's trying to do all these things that world class MMO developing teams do, but with a literal fraction of their assets. if lotro were a restaurant, it would be the old school SoA captain. jack of all trades, master of none, or however the saying went.

    It attempts to generate content like a high end developer, charges similarly to a high end developer, maintain an equivalent number of classes as a high end developer, keep it balanced, generate positive revenue, generate/keep generic MMO features, and so on. oh, and they don't really specialize in any particular type of content. I might give them skirmishes, but there's raid, solo, small group, large group, PVP, and PvMPvE content, and all these in a setting that is rigorously in line with literary lore. have i missed anything? (i'm getting somewhere here)

    Suddenly the polish of uniqueness gets lost in the maze of making the game function (i.e. does your game work and how well), which lotro has historically demonstrated is a constant struggle from the beginning. An endless struggle of diverting resources. And I would argue that keeping your class in a cryogenic tube most likely diverts resources away from where they matter in the end (relative to lotro).

    My argument relies on assuming that uniqueness is more "polish" than "core competency", so i'm not saying you're wrong to expect uniqueness from MMOs or wrong for complaining about it. I'm more saying that asking for what you want is like expecting the mom and pop's shop down the street to have a steak with the size, tenderness, and juiciness of the best butcher in town, every night. unfortunately, you aren't Dave with the nice haircut and attire whom the mom and pop's store will give the best cut. You're Krakenheim with the VISA ending in 7304.
    Fortunately you got my VISA ending wrong, you got me worried there for a minute.

    As for the rest with your line of thought we will all end having a single skill, pushing a single button (with diffrent names ofc) killing stuff and calling it "Captain", "Minstrel", "Warden" etc.

    Problem this days everybody aims for the "average" and "good enough for most ppl", wonder how the occident in in crisis.

    Anyway the "poor resources" of lotro and the "where they matter" stuff: Where they matter is the store (for turbine I think) and honestly was the store good ? In any way ? Dont honestly think so.
    If class balance and uniqueness are not a priority than what is ? Content ? But all we are getting is a very linear, bland storywise and totally unchalenging stuff.

    To finish turbine just launched an expansion which costs as much in real money as a new complete game but was based on an old one lot of the work was already in place , not to mention they get income from store and subs... so "lack of resouces" excuse="we want to make more money". I wonder how all the other publishers even manage to get anything out.
    "Baruk Khazad !" shouts the dwarf at the fallen orc before he hits him with his HAMMER !!!
    A sign of all good things to come... :(
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/07206000000008d58/01000/signature.png]Adrazor[/charsig]

  16. #41
    I don't like the Fellow bro skills being so limited now.

    I don't use song bro as much and I don't like being forced to use it while healing. I solo heal quite a bit and I don't like the corner we are being painted into.

 

 
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