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  1. #1

    Captain lost its uniqueness

    Hi

    Well for me its simple Captain were the most versatile of all clases "Good at nothing, bad at everything" (you could do anything at any time, but will do it worst than a specialist) but now it seems we are just "Bad at one thing, cant do nothing else" and this is NOT an improvment.

    Im not complaining about game balance here, I dont do PVP and little to no Raiding I belive the solo content will be as "difficult" (lol) as before but the class did lost its flair to me.

    The devs cannot see beyond the "holy trinity" (Heal, DPS, Tank) and the game suffers, Captains not having a specific Role suffer more, and if the excuse is that its hard for new players.... we all were new players once... I think.

    A friend is complaining about that the Minstrel looks like a WoW healer now, no fun either (never played one for real so cannot say) but I thought Minstrel was also very versatile and able to do a lot of diffrent things on the run, now Im told hes also limited.

    I know you can have 3 Trait trees but it seems you will not be able even to take on 2 Banner skills at once, and to get all the Marks you'll have to spread thin.

    Dont like it at all simple (contrary to the saying) is not better its simple more limitative.
    "Baruk Khazad !" shouts the dwarf at the fallen orc before he hits him with his HAMMER !!!
    A sign of all good things to come... :(
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/07206000000008d58/01000/signature.png]Adrazor[/charsig]

  2. #2
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    It's very easy to get two marks, and I don't see why you'd want to have all the banner skills anyway, since it's not like we had all the banner skills before. (They're all new, so in fact we can currently get more than we could before.) Captains have improved DPS and greatly improved on survivability and tanking. On my captain I've set up a very nice DPS/heal hybrid (primary heal focus being on Gallant Display and Revealing Mark, with some bonus damage on Rallying Cries as well for buffing purposes) so hybrids definitely haven't gone away.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    It's very easy to get two marks, and I don't see why you'd want to have all the banner skills anyway, since it's not like we had all the banner skills before. (They're all new, so in fact we can currently get more than we could before.) Captains have improved DPS and greatly improved on survivability and tanking. On my captain I've set up a very nice DPS/heal hybrid (primary heal focus being on Gallant Display and Revealing Mark, with some bonus damage on Rallying Cries as well for buffing purposes) so hybrids definitely haven't gone away.
    Of course my bad lol... yes right of course...ahhh (sigh)

    Anyway the devs did lost an opportunity to AT THE VERY LEAST stop using "while" "short time" "moderate" and similar expressions and put numbers on stuff, or else remove all the numbers.

    Yes it true Hybrid skill descriptions haven't gone away.
    Last edited by Krakenheim; Nov 21 2013 at 12:56 PM.
    "Baruk Khazad !" shouts the dwarf at the fallen orc before he hits him with his HAMMER !!!
    A sign of all good things to come... :(
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/07206000000008d58/01000/signature.png]Adrazor[/charsig]

  4. #4

    Thumbs down Agreed

    I'm with you, Krakenheim. Captains used to be unique - to be able to make a fellowship into more than the sum of its parts. We could give each member the buff they needed (crit, defense, or power). We could set up the tank to be even better with Shield Brother, and then select our traits for healing. We could pick a standard that we would need for the coming fight, and then take on the role of a guy ready to do whatever. No, we weren't great at any one thing, but we had enough tricks that we could pull the party through.

    Now we're just ... low-rent Warcraft Paladins. All that versatility is gone. Instead of improving the Guardian's survivability, the Healer's power regen, and the Hunter's crit chance, now I can only give the group one type of buff, depending on which tree I'm in.

    And I ask you - why the heck do I get access only to Shield Brother in the Tank Mode? Why on earth would I need to buff up the tank, if I'm already the tank? The *Brother skills have been made useless except when they affect me - so why not just make them affect only me? I know I'm fixed on this point, but the real beauty of the Captain was the ability to make everyone in the group even better at what they did best, and one of the best examples of this was putting Shield-Brother on a tank and then healing the bajeezes out of him.

    The other great example was that set of three Tactics buffs I mentioned (Crit, Defense, or Power Regen), but now that's gone, too.

    I haven't had a chance to really push this new tank-spec, or this new healing-spec ... they look like they might work out, but I don't know ... and in any case, would it really have hurt the game balance to let us keep that versatility?

    --T--

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by taynardo View Post
    I'm with you, Krakenheim. Captains used to be unique - to be able to make a fellowship into more than the sum of its parts. We could give each member the buff they needed (crit, defense, or power). We could set up the tank to be even better with Shield Brother, and then select our traits for healing. We could pick a standard that we would need for the coming fight, and then take on the role of a guy ready to do whatever. No, we weren't great at any one thing, but we had enough tricks that we could pull the party through.

    Now we're just ... low-rent Warcraft Paladins. All that versatility is gone. Instead of improving the Guardian's survivability, the Healer's power regen, and the Hunter's crit chance, now I can only give the group one type of buff, depending on which tree I'm in.

    And I ask you - why the heck do I get access only to Shield Brother in the Tank Mode? Why on earth would I need to buff up the tank, if I'm already the tank? The *Brother skills have been made useless except when they affect me - so why not just make them affect only me? I know I'm fixed on this point, but the real beauty of the Captain was the ability to make everyone in the group even better at what they did best, and one of the best examples of this was putting Shield-Brother on a tank and then healing the bajeezes out of him.

    The other great example was that set of three Tactics buffs I mentioned (Crit, Defense, or Power Regen), but now that's gone, too.

    I haven't had a chance to really push this new tank-spec, or this new healing-spec ... they look like they might work out, but I don't know ... and in any case, would it really have hurt the game balance to let us keep that versatility?

    --T--
    The thing about shield bro (and song bro) was brought up several times in beta. Personally, I suggested that they just straight up switched the two. (Shield Brother buffs in HoH, Song Brother in LoM.) Doesn't look like that'll happen, but that's still where my vote lies.

    That being said though, Rock did a pretty good job of giving us buffs that every class would want in every role we take. HoH has a very nice DPS related buff for example. (Two actually, but I'm referring to the Tactics bonus that reduces Attack Duration.) To Arms currently lacks that, but Rock is also making changes to that to support all three roles at once (though with an emphasis on whatever the current role of To Arms is). Once the final changes make it in, we should actually have slightly improved buffs compared to pre-HD.

    And that being said, I still miss the ability to drive-by buff people.

    Edit: The unfortunate part of the old Tactics buffs was that it gave the illusion of choice, but no actual choice. The tank got Parry (unless it was a guard requesting crit for threat), and everyone else got crit. Anyone that needed Focus built very poorly. Any DPS that needed parry was probably standing in the wrong place already. Same for healers. While we can't as easily "pick and choose" who gets what buffs now, we can base our traitline on what buffs we do want to give out, and everyone still gets something they can use.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Edit: The unfortunate part of the old Tactics buffs was that it gave the illusion of choice, but no actual choice. The tank got Parry (unless it was a guard requesting crit for threat), and everyone else got crit. Anyone that needed Focus built very poorly. Any DPS that needed parry was probably standing in the wrong place already. Same for healers. While we can't as easily "pick and choose" who gets what buffs now, we can base our traitline on what buffs we do want to give out, and everyone still gets something they can use.
    Indeed. The critical rating buff has been the primary buff as long as I can remember, and On Guard wasn't exactly needed.
    While my guess is that people are still requesting the crit rating buff, I think people should take a fresh look at its usefulness. As far as I can see, most if not all classes have been given boosts to critical rating/chance from Trait Trees and/or jewellery set bonus. Also, at least on my Captain capping crit seems to be fairly easy despite my gear is still far from completed. Crit is obviously still an important stat, but I'm going to bet a Captain crit buff is not as important as it used to be.

  7. #7
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    Couple things to keep in mind here:

    1) Off traits will help you unlock the spec bonuses

    2) You will lose flexibility if you invest heavily into a single tree. Spread the traits around and find something that you like, because no one is forcing you to trait a specific way.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  8. #8
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    Shield of the Dunedain at the end of the tanking line? It was unlikely that I was coming back, anyway, but this is just idiotic.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Couple things to keep in mind here:

    1) Off traits will help you unlock the spec bonuses

    2) You will lose flexibility if you invest heavily into a single tree. Spread the traits around and find something that you like, because no one is forcing you to trait a specific way.
    Well after serious (and long) thinking on how to Trait for solo I fuond that for me the best was using Leader of Man as main and spend points from there... I have spend 12 points on it and the rest mainly on Healing and some on Charge, although this seems the best I can do and still feel ok its a waste beyond believe as most of the points are spend at 2 to 1.

    Notice that its still good enough for solo Icy Crevasse T3 Skirmish with no problems at all.

    Call it what you like but this is very bad game design.

    I though of a way of making it more flexible: every trait on any tree would cost 1 point (not 2 if its not the main tree) but only those spend on the main tree would count for the tree bonus. I know that at this point there is nothing to do about that but maybe something to think for the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by draconis-halberd7 View Post
    If I could get a vacation to go to Boston and meet the Turbine folks, I'd track down the mastermind behind the skill removals/changes (the trees are understandable even if they are unintelligent) I'd get a nice Mackerel and bat them on the nose while saying "Bad Dev, Bad".
    If you do pls give me a call before you go, wouldnt want to losse that party
    "Baruk Khazad !" shouts the dwarf at the fallen orc before he hits him with his HAMMER !!!
    A sign of all good things to come... :(
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/07206000000008d58/01000/signature.png]Adrazor[/charsig]

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    It's very easy to get two marks, and I don't see why you'd want to have all the banner skills anyway, since it's not like we had all the banner skills before. (They're all new, so in fact we can currently get more than we could before.) Captains have improved DPS and greatly improved on survivability and tanking. On my captain I've set up a very nice DPS/heal hybrid (primary heal focus being on Gallant Display and Revealing Mark, with some bonus damage on Rallying Cries as well for buffing purposes) so hybrids definitely haven't gone away.
    Perhaps this is true for endgame. But as a mid-level captain with ~35 trait points, I no longer feel I have the old jack-of-all trades component. Instead, in order to get some sort of reasonable efficiency, I have to dump all of my points into one tree.

    Perhaps this will change when I get some more points, so I can spec blue/yellow and would still be able to trait some damage -- but even closer to endgame, I don't see how the most efficient build is anything different but dumping most of your points in one tree, then getting a handful of ranks from the first tier of the other two.

    Also, I didn't particularly appreciate the fact that a trait point is gated behind Valiant Strike, which forces me to spec blue and land 100 crits in order to get it.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  11. #11
    Hi.

    I've been playing this for over five years (I do hope one of the devs read this...). I only play with my main, wich is a captain and I rarely use my two alts.
    Last year I just gave up playing for 6 months after some stupid changes to cappy.... I mean, I was spending more time relearning to play than actually palying.

    This time, for the first time I havent pre-purchased the expansion. These guys will never see any money from me again until they get captain's playability back to what it was. Simple has that!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Also, I didn't particularly appreciate the fact that a trait point is gated behind Valiant Strike, which forces me to spec blue and land 100 crits in order to get it.
    You may want to /bug that. I know a lot of champion deeds were changed so that if the deed required a skill found in a specific tree, extra skills (found in the other trees) were added on to the deed.
    At the very least, if it requires VS to crit, you could probably add SL crits as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alcaron View Post
    This time, for the first time I havent pre-purchased the expansion. These guys will never see any money from me again until they get captain's playability back to what it was. Simple has that!
    It's never going to be exactly how it was.
    I don't know why you'd expect classes to remain static, even if MMOs don't make drastic changes such as the trait trees on LotRO, MMO devs are constantly changing classes for balance and general fun-ness.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    It's very easy to get two marks, and I don't see why you'd want to have all the banner skills anyway, since it's not like we had all the banner skills before. (They're all new, so in fact we can currently get more than we could before.) Captains have improved DPS and greatly improved on survivability and tanking. On my captain I've set up a very nice DPS/heal hybrid (primary heal focus being on Gallant Display and Revealing Mark, with some bonus damage on Rallying Cries as well for buffing purposes) so hybrids definitely haven't gone away.
    My two main characters are a warden and captain, two classes that seem to have been changed more significantly than some others if the QQ on the forums is to be believed. I've never liked trait trees in any game since I start trying to work out all the permutations and it gets overwhelming. Would you mind posting a screenie of your trait set up that you find "a very nice DPS/heal hybrid" please? That would at least be a great place for me to start and I'm sure others would appreciate it too.

    Thanks in advance!
    Officer in Windfola's House of Blackrock: a great, casual kin of people who play a lot. [url]http://hobonline.org[/url]

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    It's never going to be exactly how it was. I don't know why you'd expect classes to remain static, even if MMOs don't make drastic changes such as the trait trees on LotRO, MMO devs are constantly changing classes for balance and general fun-ness.
    I'm not sure how the HD chances served balance or general fun-ness. In fact, I'd argue that taking away the ability of the Captain to do multiple, different things well simultaneously pretty much killed the reason a lot of people chose Captain in the first place.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  15. #15
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    2pt for off-speccing is just the worst. it really kills our ability to cover more than one roll, even though they did let us keep some minor functionality of the other roles... its not like they took away ALL my healing unless I wetn HoH, so theres that, at leaset
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Also, I didn't particularly appreciate the fact that a trait point is gated behind Valiant Strike, which forces me to spec blue and land 100 crits in order to get it.
    Actually that particular trait point deed can be worked on via two skills, only one of which is gated. The other is the Inspire melee skill.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Herellomar View Post
    Actually that particular trait point deed can be worked on via two skills, only one of which is gated. The other is the Inspire melee skill.
    I thought it was 100 crits/devs with Vailant Strike only. Perhaps I misread, I will have to check.
    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    2pt for off-speccing is just the worst. it really kills our ability to cover more than one roll, even though they did let us keep some minor functionality of the other roles... its not like they took away ALL my healing unless I wetn HoH, so theres that, at leaset
    I don't like the penalty, but understand why it's there, especially since you only need 26 points to get the capstone trait ina given line.

    Without that restriction, we'd essentially be running around LtC spec'd, with the red and yellow capstones and all of the low hanging fruit in the blue tree.

    We'd be the most OP freep class ever.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    I don't like the penalty, but understand why it's there, especially since you only need 26 points to get the capstone trait ina given line.
    31, I thought. 5 points per tier for 6 tiers, then one for the capstone.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    31, I thought. 5 points per tier for 6 tiers, then one for the capstone.
    Ok, so I forgot a tier >.>

    It's still enough points to take two capstones, with some points left over. If that doesn't seem horribly imbalanced to you.......
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakenheim View Post
    I though of a way of making it more flexible: every trait on any tree would cost 1 point (not 2 if its not the main tree) but only those spend on the main tree would count for the tree bonus. I know that at this point there is nothing to do about that but maybe something to think for the future.
    sounds good...

    I was also thinking some of the traits could be offered in "packs" ie buy these 2 off line at 3rd off...or 1nhalf pts per trait.

    some traits could also be shared between lines...

    Well we got what we got and i intend to play around with that for a while
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by tsunamimc View Post
    sounds good...

    I was also thinking some of the traits could be offered in "packs" ie buy these 2 off line at 3rd off...or 1nhalf pts per trait.

    some traits could also be shared between lines...

    Well we got what we got and i intend to play around with that for a while
    Those are some interesting ideas. If you have time to flesh them out a bit more trying throwing them in the suggestion forum. Who knows if devs actually spend time there but its worth a shot.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkelder12 View Post
    Those are some interesting ideas. If you have time to flesh them out a bit more trying throwing them in the suggestion forum. Who knows if devs actually spend time there but its worth a shot.
    thx...I am fleshing...as have time on my hands...how long is this hot fix going to take!.....

    but seriously giving the trees a lot of thought...like everything...could be be done better...
    WINDFOLA: Tsuhelm Hunter lv62 LANDROVAL: Tsudryt Captain lv62 LAURELIN: Opopa Burgler lv22 WITHYWINDLE: Tsukuld Rune-keeper lv85

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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Ok, so I forgot a tier >.>

    It's still enough points to take two capstones, with some points left over. If that doesn't seem horribly imbalanced to you.......
    It doesn't seem imbalanced to me, since the capstones I would choose are Oathbreakers and SotD, which we used to be able to slot simultaneously.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    It doesn't seem imbalanced to me, since the capstones I would choose are Oathbreakers and SotD, which we used to be able to slot simultaneously.
    Yeah, but that also gives you a ton of Survivability and a pretty hearty DPS increase.

    That said, I do agree that SotD should have been turned on as a lower tiered skill, while keeping the capstone as a self targeting ability as the skill has always been the Luigi of the legendary traits.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

 

 
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