The Balrog lives!! Oh, and give MECCG a try.
My main problem with what people are saying at this moment is that they had not expected this. I would like to make it clear that, once the NDA dropped, it has been repeatedly said by Beta players that it is going to be shock at first but that you need to get used to it. "We need to get used to it" is not a euphemism for "we don't care what you think so just get on with it" but it means "get used to it". Seriously, this has repeatedly been said in the Class Changes Summaries and in all forum posts considering the class changes. Those CCSs have been stickied on all class forums and they have been at least twice linked by Sapience, so they should not have been too hard to find.
What one would also have seen is the advise to first READ what a trait does rather than immediately spend points in it. When I first started using the trait trees I made the exact same mistake and it took me 10 hours before I realized my folly and facepalmed myself a nearly-broken nose. My kinleader said he was annoyed by the new layout and that he didn't know what anything did - I too referred him to the class changes summaries and to the fact that if you don't actually LOOK at what things say, you won't understand and thus not like it either.
Think of it as with the Legendary Items. When one first gets to get and use a LI, you have NO idea what you're doing, and if you just randomly spend points on stuff, well, you're going to have a bad time. However, if you look at what you have and spend points wisely and economically, you can get an awesome, devastating, bad-*ss weapon. Apply this to the trait trees and you'll see that it'll become quite more understandable - and after perhaps a couple of days you get used to it.
If that doesn't work, well, I gave all advice I could... I hope you all have fun playing WoW or Rift or something.
Do not trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.Easca could manipulate a bull through a mousehole and still make it think it did it all by itself.
Lol, you are all hilarious. These trait trees are awesome. Skill bloat was insane. I love the new trait trees and I think the choices and options available are quite good.
The burglar (focused on quiet knife) lost all her tricks and the follow on skills that went with them. She got stun dust and critical oriented heal that replaces the lost skills, but gone is the ability to set up a fight to use them. Now she can surprise strike and subtle stab until another random event lets her use a special attack. Then back to subtle stab, rince repeat until the opponent is dead. On to the next opponent. Dull, dull, dull. I used to enjoy combat. I used to be able to look at a situation and figure out uses for her skills to solve the situation. Now there's nothing to figure out. Walk up, start fighting and hope her random effects kick in so she can succeed. Gone is the choice when to make those effects happen. Dull.
The others are no better, and what's also apparent with them is the pigeon holing of their abilities for group roles. My guardian used to be able to switch weapons and stance during a tough fight to hunker down and survive. Now I need to either stay in a hunker down set up always, or chance defeat with a DPS build. Losing? Can't change tactics. Keep whacking or runaway are the only options. Dull.
Just think of all the potential for the SHOP!!!!! Bet they will start selling trait amendment scrolls, or bonus skills in the shop....this is a money making opportunity................... .
IMO, the worst thing they did was make non-specialized traits cost twice than the specialized traits. 65 points will only give you about 14 points leftover after completely filling out your spec traits. That's a measly 7 points (due to the double cost) to put in the other two trait lines. This completely removes any ability to experiment or try to get that one skill in the another trait line you want. I've dealt with skill trees in SWTOR and Rift and all skill (trait) increases cost 1 point. And there's almost no point in creating a hybrid trait spec as you will be seriously gimped in your specialized trait line and barely get any benefit from the other lines.
Turbine, remove the double point cost for non-specialized traits. With it I feel there is no point in the trait trees at all as there is very little customizability offered in its current state.
For my RK and Champ, it hasn't been a hard adjustment, but for my hunter, she's borked.
I worked hard for some of those traits, and now I can't even use them. This really is a slap in the face of the veteran player that took the time to work for those traits.
I was mostly red, with a couple blue thrown in, but I still had my rain of thorns. Now, that's not even possible. The traits were the epitome of versatility. Now, as many are saying, it's totally one dimensional.
I'm a solo player so I liked being able to choose from a ton of different skills for each battle I was in. I could use ranged, I could use melee, and yes I actually used Hunter's Art, and Agile Rejoinder did save my behind more than once.
I had my typical rotation... but depending on the fight, I could change it up. I could stand in place, take down 6 mobs around me in succession and rarely need to heal or even regain focus or I could take down 3-4 mobs at once because I had RoT to root them all and pick them off one at a time. If one got in melee range, I had swift stroke, and scourging blow to help. I hate kiting, always have. And traps didn't always work proper. So many times I'd place a trap and a mob would run right through it.
My hunter doesn't feel like MY hunter anymore. She's boring now. These trees need some serious tweaking.
Appreciate everyone's time and feedback.
I see a lot of unhappiness overall, however there's a couple points to discuss based on your comments:
A)It seems fairly obvious that the new system would be a lot less disasterous if it did not revolve around advancement/unlock/progression such as traditionally found in other MMORGPs with 'tree talents.' This means that it would be like the old system but with an expansive layout and more fine tune-able features, resulting in truly specialized builds.
If Turbine's aim and approach was "We are increasing the customization options, yet we are giving you the responsibility of choosing how deep to spec things and what that compromise is worth to you" <--- that would have been the right thing to do. It keeps in with the LOTRO spirit, but brings us intimacy with our classes/styles.
B)Many are in agreement and flabbergasted at having to pay(coin) to fix preliminary mistakes that we are making, because of a system we didn't ask for, want or need.
C)Skill bloat certainly happens and some games deal with it over time, linking skills together and making them mesh. Some games don't solve it - ultimately ending up having to design a new system. While different classes in LOTRO suffered more from an excessive amount of skills, you didn't HAVE to use them - and the new trait system doesn't solve bloat anyways, it simply removes abilities. That's not a solution, that's throwing in the towel.
Let's please remember that there are what I call hands-on intelligent players who LOVE having the option to micro manage a wide array of abilities, which then with practice they can hone their skills. They get a satisfaction from having the knowledge of which feature to use at what time and to what extent to maximize effectiveness.
Alternatively, some people want very simple and basic gameplay, that requires more focus on timing of the ability(ies) rather than the order or significance of them. You need look no further than FFXIV:ARR where that's exactly the mechanics it employs. It's a very redundant, over simplified combat system where you have very little input and consequently no sense of real contribution.
I believe there still is hope for them to bandaid the system by at least -if nothing else- remove the progression aspect of the trait system.
It's too night and day and it doesn't matter many how many 'new' players they get, new players are not new MMO players, they're just new to LOTRO. What do you believe they're going to think when they login and see trait trees? "WOW CLONE <DELETE>"
It's like they fired everyone at TUrbine who remembers why LOTRO was considered a success in the first place : It had an epic story with attention to detail, immersion, in-depth and individualistic classes, an expanding world and a rich belief in post development efforts.
I may be going off on a tangent now, though I wonder if this is all WB's fault.
Again, thanks to everyone for some great responses and while I cannot quote them all, this one is particularly worthwhile to note :
So very true. You've touch on the key aspects to why trait trees are a bane to MMORPGs now days as much as class 'balancing' is. It's a poor compromise type system that limits player prowess so they don't exceed the limitations of the mechanics. Rather than fix mechanics, they put less effort into designing complex content as a stop gap.
LOTRO mechanics have always been a point of contention, you'd have thought a big expansion is a great time to fix the previous issues first.
Last edited by Ranebow; Nov 21 2013 at 03:04 PM.
Alright, after screwing around with trait lines and quickslots, I've come to same conclusion as a thousand other people... THIS SUCKS.
On my RK, I trait spec 1 (dps), then I apply and place my dps icons and heal icons exactly where I want them in the "sword" quickslot bars. Then I switch to the "shield" quickslot bars and trait my spec 2 (heal) and apply and move all my heal icons and dps icons exactly where I want them. Then, I switch back to the "sword" quickslots and hit spec 1... expecting all the previously moved icons to populate the area I put them in. WRONG. It populates each empty space in the order pre-determined by how they are found in the trait tree.
### Turbine?!?! You don't save quickslot layouts? What is this ####?!?? As a Rune-keeper, I like all my heal-spec'd skills on the 1-0 quickbar when I'm healing, and as a dps-spec'd RK I like all my dps-spec'd skills on the 1-0 quickbar when I'm DPSing.
Now there's no way to do this? WHAT THE BLEEP!!!! 2 hours of screwing around using various suggestions and configurations, and still fail.
Anyone have any insight into how to do this?
The fact is Turbine took a highly functioning hybrid class and made it into a crippled one-trick pony. After years of tuning my champ to have a mix of stellar single-target dps, massive AOE potential, and the skill set to stay alive with a might/crit stacked champ, I am now forced to WASTE points and only receive a fraction of the flexibility I had before. The days of my perfect champ build are gone because I know longer have the ability to reach the skills I desire in all 3 trees. I will adjust and move on. But I am not happy.
So I've read a lot of the comments and I can't help but agree that the new changes are overwhelming. I know my hunter is not who my hunter was a month ago, but I want to give these changes a chance. Even though these changes maybe negative or positive, I still love this game. I've put a lot of work in my characters and I don't want to stop now even after this MAJOR update.
I can't help but agree with most of the comments, I am not so happy with the change, more specifically the trait tree. To be honest I don't like it and I want it gone, most of the skills I use as a Rune-keeper are GONE!!! We all know that Rune-keepers die easily, but when i played the game just recently I DIED faster than expected and I was really pissed off. All I want is for the DEVS to change the changes back to normal
Well, I thought it was nice to get something completely new to play with, that applies to all levels.
But what really turned me off is that obviously I want 3 trait specs on all my characters, and the only way to but the third spec is mithril coins. Not only that but even if I only buy it on my most played chars, the total price comes out as the same as an EXPANSION PACK. Really? You think having access to full traits is worth the same as having access to all of Moria?! That's reasonable?!
[url=http://community.codemasters.com/forum/lord-rings-online-off-topic-425/394599-have-you-seen-yati.html]Have you seen the Yati?[/url]
Are you sure you have checked out the trees? Many of the skills now come from allocating points on them. With my LM I think I have maybe 5 less skills overall at level 86 - I will have 2 of those back by 95.
The Balrog lives!! Oh, and give MECCG a try.
The Balrog lives!! Oh, and give MECCG a try.
I appreciate everyone wanting to have their opinion on the trait trees heard, but... At this point, is it not possible to have ONE thread for people to share their opinion about the trait trees? This may come across a bit harsh... but your opinion(s) on the trait trees are not important enough or unique enough to warrant creating a *new* thread. Your opinions are not any more important than anyone else. Likewise, no one else should be made to feel like their opinions don't matter because theirs are tucked away in a "longer" thread.
This BS statement always comes up... sorry but it is a BS statement... Turbine will frequently send out email surveys asking for feedback... particularly after someone sends a bug report or a petition. Whether or not you bother to fill it out and send it back to them... Turbine is listening. If you do not take the opportunity to respond to Turbine when they ask for the feedback, then you are leaving yourself at the mercy of those who have given feedback.What is important is that the devs did it on purpose and they don't care what existing players think.
This is like deciding not to vote when you've been given multiple chances, then turning around and complaining about the decision. You didn't even bother to have your voice heard when someone gave you the chance (multiple chances)... but now you are crying that you don't like what was decided... and complaining that no one is listening to you.
You, then, will claim that one voice/vote doesn't count for much. Do you realize how many people say that? Do you realize what would happen if all the people who "stayed home because their voice doesn't matter" came out and "voted"... how many votes that would add up to and just might sway the decision in your favor?
Sorry, but at this point, you have absolutely no room to complain. IMHO, your voice doesn't matter now because (again) you had your choice to be heard and you forfeited your chance.
In fact, you could say that Turbine's offer to let so many people participate in Beta was even more of a chance to "have your voice heard." Sure, at that point the trait trees may have been a done deal, but you still had a chance to help refine them such as to be more to your liking. Did you bother to take advantage of that chance to "have your say"? As a participant in Beta, I can attest to the fact that with the help of the players the developers made a lot of refinements to the trait trees. There were many lengthy debates over the class changes. Did you bother to speak up during these debates? Did you bother to fill out the "feedback" forms the developers made available?
These trait trees have been in effect for about a couple weeks. Love them or hate them it is time to accept that they are here. Isn't it time to move beyond all the "complaining" and decide if you can learn to work with the new system (as many have already done)... or decide that you just can't work with them...
Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain
Yes. I am sick of all the "well, it's changed now so shut up and deal with it" comments. No. No no no no NO! I liked the game before Rohan. Well, at least up and through Mirkwood anyway. I liked the journey and I liked the challenge they had in game that made doing the quests fun. I liked having to do all the quests available for a level range rather than just part of one zone. I liked keeping my crafting up to par so I could get decent gear to use as my characters leveled and thus take on more of the challenges that were just out of reach with the lesser equipment. I liked the sense of danger I felt when I went into a tougher region even if other of my characters were through there already.
I miss having a game to play. And now these trees have borked the simplifications they made before into pure mush. My characters used to have class defining skills by level 20. Now they get a taste of the skills and don't pick up any of the defining skills until the 50s or even 60s. But only those available to their spec. The other skills are still out of reach unless they change spec thus losing their current spec's skills.
Why? I'm seriously wondering why this is the path chosen. You've removed the fun from the game. Games that aren't fun get shelved and that's what is going to happen with this game. Your older players are going to toss in the towel and say, "this just isn't worth the time to do anymore." And what will you be left with? New players who will quickly discover a vacant world and game that really isn't that appealing. And they'll move on as well.
Why haven't I tossed in the towel yet? Actually, I have. I cancelled my VIP, but it won't expire until early next year. They could get me back into the game, but I doubt they'll care if I'm gone or not. After all, I'm not the target audience anymore.
Last edited by Vhivi; Dec 09 2013 at 01:13 PM.
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