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  1. #1

    Trait tree observations

    Here is what I've noticed immediately old versus new:

    Old - Any combination of class traits was mix and match-able. The only limitations were the amount you could physically slot.
    New - Tree system requires you to unlock traits through points spend.

    Old - 'Respeccing' was cheap. They couldn't make it free, of course for lore and content purposes, however it was sometimes cheaper than a horse ride to another town.
    New - First respec is almost 1 gold at level 80 with 50 points spent/applied.



    I am not so adverse to the new system however dislike it for the fact that it :

    A) Too closely resembles other games
    B) It's progression based. I have to not only unlock augments to skills, I have to unlock the skills themselves(All that coin wasted on skills down the drain btw).
    C) Your non specialized tree features cost two to rank up, as opposed to the one for your specialized line. With 50 points to spend, you're looking at 75% completion of one tree, with a handful of points left to spend - which do not go far in other trees when they are two points per rank up.
    D) Respecs. They couldn't give us free respecs for say even the first month? Really? And 1 gold ? Come on...
    E) Cannot find a keybind for the line swap, have to open menu and mouse click each time.
    F) When you switch specialization lines, it does not save all of your hotbutton/hotbar layouts. It simply removes abilities forcing you to have replace them from the skills menu.
    G) 'Alternate skill bar' is available for intermediate or reactive abilities that become available after an effect is achieved. These cannot be dragged to hotbars, they do not exist in your skills menu and they cannot be key bound.

    If I've missed anything...

  2. #2
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    Think you got it right.
    I agree that Respecing is too expensive. Cheaper cost here would take some of the sting out of 2 point cost of traiting out of primary line.
    It may be a way of getting people to spend RL $ for slotting more lines. I think you may only get 2 free trait tree lines.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000002ed513/signature.png]Basilrod[/charsig]

  3. #3
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    Thumbs down Way to be even more of a WoW clone

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranebow View Post
    A) Too closely resembles other games
    I don't like World of Warcraft. I am willing to concede that Lord of the Rings Online is a WoW clone with a Tolkien skin, but c'mon...this is taking it too far. Not even WoW uses this #### anymore (so my partner tells me — I won't go near that tripe again).
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarot View Post
    I don't like World of Warcraft. I am willing to concede that Lord of the Rings Online is a WoW clone with a Tolkien skin, but c'mon...this is taking it too far. Not even WoW uses this #### anymore (so my partner tells me — I won't go near that tripe again).
    Sorry to tell you this, but WoW is less #### that Lotro now. I was playing it this afternoon while waiting for the upgrade. After seeing what choices I have to make with my characters, I wish I had stayed on WoW and not come to see. Maybe then I wouldn't feel like crying about the loss of all my characters I have been playing for 4 years. They have been so thoroughly gutted that I don't know if they are worth rebuilding with theoptions under the new skill trees. Flat, one dimensional and boring are what comes to mind.

  5. #5
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    If you don't move skills between spec's, the system will remember and repositionate the skills of each spec in the right position, when you switch.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranebow View Post
    D) Respecs. They couldn't give us free respecs for say even the first month? Really? And 1 gold ? Come on...
    ...
    I agree 100%. I played around a few times by putting 3 or 4 points in, hitting "apply" and then respeccing...just to see. And those cost nothing, so I figured Turbine was working with us. Then I tried a full 50-pt spec and did the same thing....1 gold.

    This is just mean for no reason. We're learning a new game here, folks, for crying out loud.
    Last edited by Occum; Nov 20 2013 at 09:48 PM.

  7. #7
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    "Trait trees are coming. Period"
    This quote sums up comunication during beta regarding the skill trees.

    Yes, lots of changes have been made during beta, skills have been reworked and some deleted ones even returned. But sadly no changes were made where they *should* have been made. The skill tree forces you to purchase or dump points into inferior skills and punishes you for spending points outside the trait setup you've chosen.

    Skill bloat is a myth.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombielord View Post
    "Trait trees are coming. Period"
    This quote sums up comunication during beta regarding the skill trees.

    Yes, lots of changes have been made during beta, skills have been reworked and some deleted ones even returned. But sadly no changes were made where they *should* have been made. The skill tree forces you to purchase or dump points into inferior skills and punishes you for spending points outside the trait setup you've chosen.

    Skill bloat is a myth.

    Can't agree more with this. Don't like them, didn't need them, can't get rid of them. I loved this game until now. Tried my burglar but half the skills I used are in one line and the other half in another and no way to select them anymore since we can no longer choose as we used to.
    Last edited by soltasword; Nov 20 2013 at 10:20 PM.


  9. #9

    Angry

    Used to love this game until this. The new trait system completely ruined this game for me. If it gets "fixed" (which probably not considering they never fix anything) I will be back. Until then its just an attempt at a bad WoW knock-off that they failed at miserably. I dealt with the insufferable lag and the system crashes and all the other breaks they did to the game. Including breaking most of the raids instances and skirmishes at one time or another. But this is nothing more than trying to turn the game into something that its not going to make it as, pay to win. If you are going to make a game free to play keep it free to win as well. So far turbine has done nothing but piss off all of its players except for the 6-13 year old player that just troll every one else (the ones who actually put money into the game.) And I personally know of several players who are leaving because of turbine's latest "screw the players." I have never complained about anything else they have screwed up until this moment.

  10. #10
    Going against the grain or the tone of this thread, I do find the changes a bit newbie friendly as opposed to the old system wherein you had to do a certain number of deeds to really have a feel for your class' specialization. This time around, you can already get a feel for what your class can do earlier.

  11. #11
    The new system is horrible, end of story.

    What is important is that the devs did it on purpose and they don't care what existing players think. That is because they want new players, not the existing ones. The devs have been pretty clear about that though. So, although I feel slighted and marginalized, I do feel the devs were clear on their intent.

    you can question their marketing strategy - are they going to get more new players to make up for the losses - but they seem to think they know what they are doing.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarot View Post
    Not even WoW uses this #### anymore (so my partner tells me — I won't go near that tripe again).
    These trees have the same problems WoW's did:

    1) Traits that are so obvious that it's not really a choice; of course you're going to take it. DPS traits that increase damage, for instance...duh!?! Stepped traits that give 2%-4%-6%-8%-10% more damage/healing/block or w/e depending on how many points you put in it...how many people worth their salt are going to settle for just a 2% increase? Some people will, I know but traits that are fake choices should be baked into the class.

    2) Traits you don't really want but have to take to get to the next lower tier. There's nothing "fun" about what feels like wasted points.

    3) You've decided to spec red-line but there's a trait at the top of the yellow-line that you want. It's probably a trait that is good for the class regardless of spec but you've gotta make the hard choice to skimp on red traits to get it. Again such traits should be baked into the class.

    After playing with the trees on one toon, my RK, I took him out to kill some mobs and he actually feels pretty good, maybe even a little stronger than he was. I mostly like the way attunement works now. These trees though....they need work.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtonuTragona View Post
    The new system is horrible, end of story.

    What is important is that the devs did it on purpose and they don't care what existing players think. That is because they want new players, not the existing ones. The devs have been pretty clear about that though. So, although I feel slighted and marginalized, I do feel the devs were clear on their intent.

    you can question their marketing strategy - are they going to get more new players to make up for the losses - but they seem to think they know what they are doing.
    I happen to agree with you.

    What they are doing is one thing, what they aren't doing is another. What aren't they doing? They're not learning from the mistakes made by other games. Take SWG for instance. They went NGE in an attempt to capture a larger player base. They got their new players, all right. They also lost so many veteran players that the new player base they acquired wasn't anywhere near the amount that canceled their subs.

    This trait tree thing isn't about a 'new' set of capabilities. It makes the capabilities you used to have, a mix which is no longer possible, barely available. And yeah, spending two points per level for a tree branch so I can make enough points to go one level beyond to get that skill I used to have by default... that bites.

    My Captain didn't get hit with a nerf bat. He got hit with a steel bat, and that hurts quite a bit more.

    If I wanted to learn how to play a new game, I would have went out and bought one.

    Oh wait... Elderscrolls Online is coming out next year. I'm giddy about that. I'm not giddy about this trait tree thing. I'm seriously considering going FTP until something else better comes by, and that's saying a lot, since I just purchased Helm's Deep.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by HandOfMystra View Post
    Going against the grain or the tone of this thread, I do find the changes a bit newbie friendly as opposed to the old system wherein you had to do a certain number of deeds to really have a feel for your class' specialization. This time around, you can already get a feel for what your class can do earlier.
    +1
    I like the new system. Feels more organized unlike the old one where it was a chaotic mess of random skills. And my skill bar is much more tidy :P

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by taikitty View Post
    I have stuck around this game and you devs have screwed 51/2 years of time effort and love of my character, I have never put down what you have done till now, I worked hard to earn each one of those skills you've denied me. I came into this game as a noob to online gaming unknowingly pick the hardest class to play and had succeeded over time and now you have taken those accomplishments away. I am so pissed I am nearly crying over a stupid #$$ game being run by just as stupid people. you have a base of people who have kept this game going and loved it, why dump on all their time love and work like this. If I had the time and had actually signed into beta I would probably never shelled out the money for helms deep, and I think you have guaranteed I will never do so again.
    This is why they did it:
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Turbined

    And you should call up Turbine CS and demand your money back for the expansion.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranebow View Post
    Here is what I've noticed immediately old versus new:

    Old - 'Respeccing' was cheap. They couldn't make it free, of course for lore and content purposes, however it was sometimes cheaper than a horse ride to another town.
    New - First respec is almost 1 gold at level 80 with 50 points spent/applied.
    Quote Originally Posted by Occum View Post
    I agree 100%. I played around a few times by putting 3 or 4 points in, hitting "apply" and then respeccing...just to see. And those cost nothing, so I figured Turbine was working with us. Then I tried a full 50-pt spec and did the same thing....1 gold.

    This is just mean for no reason. We're learning a new game here, folks, for crying out loud.

    Your respec should be a rare occurance. Buy the third trait slot, build three trait-specs (Blue, Red and Yellow, or hybrid some combination of the three), then switch between these three at no cost. But to Re-spec/rebuild one of these, then you pay.
    Last edited by Gandolf_TheOld; Nov 21 2013 at 12:17 AM.
    Ujest - 105 Lore-master, Opun - 76 Warden, Cneasai - 39 Minstrel, plus alts and mules
    Pipeweed and Ale, Arkenstone (formerly Friends of Frodo, Vilya)

  17. #17
    it's funny how people only like change when it benefits them. i don't play wow. to say it's a wow knock-off is frankly untrue. swtor, ddo, rift, and i'm sure others, use trait trees. yeah, it sucks that you can't get every trait, but the other system wasn't better, not imo. i'm not a "hard core gamer." i don't know all the math & program language involved in the game, and i don't care to know. what i do know is i just enjoy playing.

    gossip hypnotizes people. you heard what was coming and made your judgment. i told my kinnies that i wasn't going to touch my hunter till enough complaints made turbine fix it. when i logged in, i was surprised. hunter didn't lose everything. actually, the trees seem to hook it up nice. and trapper seems pretty bad ###. warden looks pretty good. my guard would like to mix the trees, but the point system won't let him.

    for me, what i don't like, is that when you switch from 1 to 2 it doesn't keep the layout. i tried everything. it messes up my quickslots. i do hope they fix that. but why not give it a go? play for a few days. start a new toon. grow with it. crawl, then walk, then run with it. give lotro time to work out the bugs. it might be cool. swtor has no complaints with their tree system. neither does rift or ddo.

    it might be because a whole lot of you played wow. well forget about wow. roll a new toon. join a fellowship. run together. you might begin to like it. i'm gonna give it a chance. hope to see you in game.
    Qalfo-warden, Franq-minstrel, Robwyn-hunter, Frob-guardian
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  18. #18
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    I promised myself I would try to give the trait tree mess a fighting chance. I really did. I didn't want to feel absolutely ripped off for pre-purchasing Helm's Deep.

    *sigh*

    My hunter is no longer my hunter. I have ONE melee skill with a full 5-second cooldown. What am I supposed to do when something sneak attacks or catches me off guard? Make faces at it? Bat my eyelashes? I get that I chose the DPS line to try to get back the way I was accustomed to playing, but I didn't see much in the way of melee in the other trait lines either. Never knew a hunter in any game that couldn't at least do more than poke once with a sharp weapon.

    I'm horrified reading that some people had to cough up 1 gold just to respec. Seriously? On top of the ridiculous 100 mithril coins for an extra 15 lousy spaces in housing storage? Does anybody working at Turbine have a working sense of retail? Anyone at all?

    I'm going to try sticking this out for a bit. Hope that maybe enough cancelled subs and and general player displeasure will get some of the asinine 'improvements' changed. But from what I've seen so far, these changes snuffed out a good deal of what I enjoyed in the game mechanics.

    Skill bloat? Maybe on the dev side of things. For the player side, now we're all stuck with 3 choices instead of a unique combination of skills we could use at our own discretion. Anyone who thought it was a chaotic mess simply didn't bother to learn their class and make the best use of what they had. Thank you for homogenizing what was a beautiful diversity. I'm really disappointed and regret spending the money I have. It looks like I'm not the only one, either.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testis View Post
    it's funny how people only like change when it benefits them. i don't play wow. to say it's a wow knock-off is frankly untrue. swtor, ddo, rift, and i'm sure others, use trait trees. yeah, it sucks that you can't get every trait, but the other system wasn't better, not imo. i'm not a "hard core gamer." i don't know all the math & program language involved in the game, and i don't care to know. what i do know is i just enjoy playing.

    gossip hypnotizes people. you heard what was coming and made your judgment. i told my kinnies that i wasn't going to touch my hunter till enough complaints made turbine fix it. when i logged in, i was surprised. hunter didn't lose everything. actually, the trees seem to hook it up nice. and trapper seems pretty bad ###. warden looks pretty good. my guard would like to mix the trees, but the point system won't let him.

    for me, what i don't like, is that when you switch from 1 to 2 it doesn't keep the layout. i tried everything. it messes up my quickslots. i do hope they fix that. but why not give it a go? play for a few days. start a new toon. grow with it. crawl, then walk, then run with it. give lotro time to work out the bugs. it might be cool. swtor has no complaints with their tree system. neither does rift or ddo.

    it might be because a whole lot of you played wow. well forget about wow. roll a new toon. join a fellowship. run together. you might begin to like it. i'm gonna give it a chance. hope to see you in game.
    Qalfo-warden, Franq-minstrel, Robwyn-hunter, Frob-guardian
    If you are moving your Common Skills around in different quick bars setups yes it will mess up. There are two methods of quick bar set up. One, you place your Common Skills (skils that are listed in your skill window) in the same spot in all trait specs: If you have the skill FFF00F in quick slot 34 for your first trait-spec, then you have that skill in slot 34 in all trait-specs. Then switch to each of your trait-specs and place the trait specific skills in any of the empty quick slots you want. Your set up is remembered. You do not need to switch the toolbar from sword to shieled or vis-versa. Just leave the toolbar on one of the two free quick bars. The Horse Bar will still work. I know this method works, I use it.

    Now, if you like to move your Common Skills around between the different trait-specs then search these forums for the method that works in that situation.
    Ujest - 105 Lore-master, Opun - 76 Warden, Cneasai - 39 Minstrel, plus alts and mules
    Pipeweed and Ale, Arkenstone (formerly Friends of Frodo, Vilya)

  20. #20
    Skill bloat is not a myth! People saying it is a myth is a myth. Theres no way to balance the game for landscape, PvP and raids when there are 8 classes with 50+ skills each. And how do you ever balance a new class with 50+ skills? And how do you add skills? 3 more from 85 to 95... 3 more from 95 to 105... 3 more to 115 and three more to 125 and you have 60+ skills and a total fubar! And that people quit WoW because of skill trees is certainly a myth. We quit because we were tired of not getting new skills. And just so you will know ESO has "a" trait tree... Not nearly enough skills to even have 2, much less three skills... That is going to last about as long as Oblivion and Skyrim lasted. About 2 months if they are lucky...

    Anyway, green eggs and ham I'd say...

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandolf_TheOld View Post
    Buy the third trait slot...But to Re-spec/rebuild one of these, then you pay.
    so pay real money to fix an in-game cost...this is like creating 3 bugs to fix one. This is terrible advice
    Balgost-85 Guard, Gungyl-85 Burg, Dolfang-85 LM, Linyc-85 Capt, Dareg-85 Mini, Radhur-85 Hunter Formerly residing on Riddermark/now Gladden

  22. #22
    I don't want to be one of the negative guys here, and I usually support lotro and many decisions, but to be honest, the devs that were working on this killed my champ. Completely ruined him. Now, I am stuck in a rigid playstyle, and I am stuck playing in a way that has no flexibility. I hope someone will tweak my champ soon, or he will become unbearable.

  23. #23
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    A gold to respec is cruel. Look, I have gold. But new players, and especially free players, do not have that kind of gold. One mistake and they could end up too weak to earn enough gold to fix themselves.

    A gold. Sheesh! I was going to log in this morning and test some ideas out - how much red to trait, how much yellow. If it's going to eat my cash I certainly won't bother.
    'A cage,' she said. 'To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.'

  24. #24
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    Hello all,
    First off I understand your frustrations I feel them too, i have started a thread designed to show just how restrictive these trees are in the hope turbine listen and take action, please take a look, read through what I posted and take part in my little experiment if you have the time.

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...as-a-community

    Kind regards,
    Andthelion.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testis View Post
    it's funny how people only like change when it benefits them. i don't play wow. to say it's a wow knock-off is frankly untrue. swtor, ddo, rift, and i'm sure others, use trait trees. yeah, it sucks that you can't get every trait, but the other system wasn't better, not imo. i'm not a "hard core gamer." i don't know all the math & program language involved in the game, and i don't care to know. what i do know is i just enjoy playing.

    gossip hypnotizes people. you heard what was coming and made your judgment. i told my kinnies that i wasn't going to touch my hunter till enough complaints made turbine fix it. when i logged in, i was surprised. hunter didn't lose everything. actually, the trees seem to hook it up nice. and trapper seems pretty bad ###. warden looks pretty good. my guard would like to mix the trees, but the point system won't let him.

    for me, what i don't like, is that when you switch from 1 to 2 it doesn't keep the layout. i tried everything. it messes up my quickslots. i do hope they fix that. but why not give it a go? play for a few days. start a new toon. grow with it. crawl, then walk, then run with it. give lotro time to work out the bugs. it might be cool. swtor has no complaints with their tree system. neither does rift or ddo.

    it might be because a whole lot of you played wow. well forget about wow. roll a new toon. join a fellowship. run together. you might begin to like it. i'm gonna give it a chance. hope to see you in game.
    Qalfo-warden, Franq-minstrel, Robwyn-hunter, Frob-guardian
    Good for you, I'm glad you're happy. Unfortunately the toons I spent years developing are now so badly messed up that they can't be rebuilt. Ok, so let's look at building a new too shall we? What class has skill trees that lets me build a versatile class that isn't mon-focused and narrowly defined and would be an interesting class to play? Hmmm, well I suppose I better go look at Rift or something, because these classes are all now so far down the toilet that flushing them would be a mercy!

 

 
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