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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Quazi-moto View Post
    I made a long ago post when Orion was still dev that if they removed all damage/buff components to builders AND all clicking delay that would go along way to smoothing out all warden issues (basically an always on battle prep with zero delay). Clicking 3123 as fast as you can, then executing the skill retains the dynamics of gambit building, but removes the ###### dps/buffs from the 1-3s of global cooldown, and lets the warden focus exclusively on gambits. Less need to worry about buff duration, damage output, and slow clunky feeling of building a gambit.

    Then you can still have masteries for more dynamic gambit strings, but the warden is less impacted by "builder lag", building gambits on the move, etc. Power would be the limiting factor, and dbtd would be a regular rotation for all trait lines (if it isnt already)

    Just the gambits please.
    The delays in executing gambit builders has been a long time disappointment to me. It really makes
    the class feel sluggish and worsens when in larger groups, putting us at a further disadvantage.
    A reduction of these delays would make the class much more smooth and fun to play.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    The delays in executing gambit builders has been a long time disappointment to me. It really makes
    the class feel sluggish and worsens when in larger groups, putting us at a further disadvantage.
    A reduction of these delays would make the class much more smooth and fun to play.
    I am all for reducing the animations or having an actual working -attack duration legacy/traits, but getting rid of animations entirely as Quazi suggest? I think that would be too far, as you would eliminate all opportunity cost on the gambits, making them all about the same amount of time to execute (I can hit 3-1 essentially as fast as 3-1-3-1 if there is no animations).

    I think this would lead to less strategy, weaker gambits and frankly don't see how it could work without cooldowns on everything. You might as well just turn it into a clicky class.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by danno8 View Post
    I am all for reducing the animations or having an actual working -attack duration legacy/traits, but getting rid of animations entirely as Quazi suggest? I think that would be too far, as you would eliminate all opportunity cost on the gambits, making them all about the same amount of time to execute (I can hit 3-1 essentially as fast as 3-1-3-1 if there is no animations).

    I think this would lead to less strategy, weaker gambits and frankly don't see how it could work without cooldowns on everything. You might as well just turn it into a clicky class.
    Not looking for zero delay, but a significant reduction. A deeper keystroke buffer may help too. What I find a lot is
    that performance slows in groups and I will get dropped keystrokes. I don't really like having to watch the gambit widget
    while I'm pressing keys - I would rather watch the combat situation, but the slower things get the more you have to watch
    the gambit bar to see if your keystrokes are getting accepted.

  4. #104
    No more builders, or any form of building based on zero delay would just result in staring at the gambit cooldown constantly. There would be two classes of wardens, mouse clickers who probably would have an even bigger 'issue' executing gambits as fast as other wardens than they do now, and all the keybound wardens who would be locked into completely identical gambit output rates. While it would make us impressively more powerful if nothing else were changed, I personally would have no more interest in the class, as the nuances of actually building the gambits, and the trade-offs between using gambit builders or masteries at various times would be lost.
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  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    No more builders, or any form of building based on zero delay would just result in staring at the gambit cooldown constantly.
    ...
    I do not understand what is meant by "no more builders".

    The issue I see is that in large groups our gambit builders do not execute as smoothly and quickly
    as usual. This leads to unpredictable success if you base your gambit builder timing on a rhythm
    that works when you are soloing. It affects masteries too.

    I suspect the problem has to do with the amount of network transactions that have to occur. To
    complete just 1 warden gambit requires several keystrokes and each one of those probably involves
    at least 1 network transaction. So, whereas other classes with a 1-click skill incur a 1x network transaction
    penalty, we incur a 3,4,5x penalty because we need more keystrokes to compete a single gambit.
    In between each keystroke is an "opportunity" for delay to complete the 1 gambit we are working towards.

    If you enjoy this behavior... well I don't know what to say - LOL.
    I doubt that many wardens do. The ideal would be that gambits perform according to some deadline
    scheduling regardless of their animations and/or other latency issues. That is not zero delay - It is predictable
    and consistent delay.

    BTW: All these delays I am referring to are side effects of the implementation, I am not talking about delays
    that are caused by a mob putting a "slow" effect on us.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by JLotro View Post
    I do not understand what is meant by "no more builders".

    The issue I see is that in large groups our gambit builders do not execute as smoothly and quickly
    as usual. This leads to unpredictable success if you base your gambit builder timing on a rhythm
    that works when you are soloing. It affects masteries too.

    I suspect the problem has to do with the amount of network transactions that have to occur. To
    complete just 1 warden gambit requires several keystrokes and each one of those probably involves
    at least 1 network transaction. So, whereas other classes with a 1-click skill incur a 1x network transaction
    penalty, we incur a 3,4,5x penalty because we need more keystrokes to compete a single gambit.
    In between each keystroke is an "opportunity" for delay to complete the 1 gambit we are working towards.

    If you enjoy this behavior... well I don't know what to say - LOL.
    I doubt that many wardens do. The ideal would be that gambits perform according to some deadline
    scheduling regardless of their animations and/or other latency issues. That is not zero delay - It is predictable
    and consistent delay.

    BTW: All these delays I am referring to are side effects of the implementation, I am not talking about delays
    that are caused by a mob putting a "slow" effect on us.
    I was referring to the original concept Qazi-Moto was suggesting where builders have no damage component and all function as instantaneous skills (like masteries now) where our ability to build a gambit is only limited by how fast we can push the buttons.

    I agree completely with you, about various forms of 'lag' being more harmful to a warden than other classes and it making for extremely frustrating gameplay. Personally I get this lag just as frequently soloing as I do in groups. I'm no programmer, but i don't think any specific changes to builders or masteries would really solve this problem, as at least in my experience the problem is entirely due to the various forms of lag the game experiences and changes specifically to wardens would have little impact on the classes performance.
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  7. #107
    Tanking might be broken right now, but I started to get my warden to 95 today (94 atm), and the DPS seems huge... I know, unmitigated bleeds, but the fist bleeds... Working as intended?...
    Feailuve - Akabath
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  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Tanking might be broken right now, but I started to get my warden to 95 today (94 atm), and the DPS seems huge... I know, unmitigated bleeds, but the fist bleeds... Working as intended?...
    I had a 12k tick on desolation the other day... I think Oathies was up, but still...
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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I had a 12k tick on desolation the other day... I think Oathies was up, but still...
    Lol yeah it crits 5k in my PvP gear (lvl 85) unbuffed. Also, the 2 bleeds from SoV seems OP. Oh well, I had hoped to lose all the fotm wardens this update, but it's only been made worse. I heard that bleeds aren't fixed in 12.1? Way to go.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  10. #110
    I still think removing both cool down and the dps/buff from builders is the way to defeat the overarching problems for wardens. You still retain the muscle memory required to build the gambit, and rely on execution of the gambit.

    What if you make the gambit on a 2s cooldown? That reasonably limits how much gambit spam you can have, but reduces the keystroke error, lag, and movement issues of our current state.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Quazi-moto View Post
    I still think removing both cool down and the dps/buff from builders is the way to defeat the overarching problems for wardens. You still retain the muscle memory required to build the gambit, and rely on execution of the gambit.

    What if you make the gambit on a 2s cooldown? That reasonably limits how much gambit spam you can have, but reduces the keystroke error, lag, and movement issues of our current state.
    all of this is analogous to talking about re-inventing the wheel because the state hasn't repaired the roads and they are crumbling. Which is especially ironic because the people you are asking to fix the wheel are the same people who are in change of maintaining the roads.

    Lag sucks, and it sucks especially bad for wardens, since their APM is much higher than most every other class. But the fundamental system of slower builders with benefits on short cooldown, the faster masteries on longer cooldwn, and the short but meaningful cooldown on the gambit execute skill is fantastic. It rewards intelligent order of operations and planning ahead. Back when lag was a minimized and occasional issue, churning out gambits at a sufficient rate to 'keep up' with other classes was no problem, and when lag isn't crushing everyones experience now, the same holds true.

    Just fix the damn lag in this game.
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Tanking might be broken right now, but I started to get my warden to 95 today (94 atm), and the DPS seems huge... I know, unmitigated bleeds, but the fist bleeds... Working as intended?...
    In one sense, I think aggro's pretty good on the warden now imo. Hated AoE threat, but began messing with different things based around Resolution spam from ThundrChickens post, haven't had an issue since, except when people are sporadic with what they are focusing. If anything, the only problem is trying to fit in survivability gambits (Which, laughably, was supposedly the whole focus point in the threat changes). Although, wiht the way things are now you only need a cappy to keep you alive in most raid content.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    all of this is analogous to talking about re-inventing the wheel because the state hasn't repaired the roads and they are crumbling. Which is especially ironic because the people you are asking to fix the wheel are the same people who are in change of maintaining the roads.

    Lag sucks, and it sucks especially bad for wardens, since their APM is much higher than most every other class. But the fundamental system of slower builders with benefits on short cooldown, the faster masteries on longer cooldwn, and the short but meaningful cooldown on the gambit execute skill is fantastic. It rewards intelligent order of operations and planning ahead. Back when lag was a minimized and occasional issue, churning out gambits at a sufficient rate to 'keep up' with other classes was no problem, and when lag isn't crushing everyones experience now, the same holds true.

    Just fix the damn lag in this game.
    I would rather analogize this to the slightly used road becoming a gravel road and needing off-road tires instead of smooth racing tires. Masteries were the initial fix for the delays to lag, and building on the move, to let you get an instant gambit off during a crucial moment. Many have utilized this to make masteries part of the gambit rotation.

    Personally I would rather not bother so much with builders (or masteries) as focus on which gambit I want to churn out next. Having time to put out aggro gambits, and keeping up defensive gambits has always been a tanking complaint.

    Orion tried to streamline the gambits a bit and put buffs on things so that when you dps you get dps buffs, and when you tank you get defensive buffs. I preferred the original warden, where heal gambit healed, defense gambit defended, etc. Level 60 warden was all it needed to be, and was awesome. Changes to stat limits, defensive caps, lag, etc, eroded that very balanced and eloquent state wardens were in.

    The greatest challenge to the Devs is how to please the HUGE variety of gameplay that warden's bring to the environment, more so than any class. There will always be some that excel at the class no matter the challenge or difficulty level. How do you fix a class without making those exceptional few overpowered. The answer unfortunately is by limiting it's dynamic nature. This also means simplifying the class.

    I admit to being a mediocre warden, and I have never qualified as a waden. I have played the warden in all it's incarnations, have remade a warden at each significant update just to see how impactful the changes have been. I have just as much investment into the class as anyone playing. I also care about the class, and successful mediocre wardens in tanking and dps environments are what the class needs. If the devs can make mediocre wardens the baseline for tanking and dpsing, that is a success for LOTRO.

    Ultimately I will play it for my enjoyment regardless of the state it's in. I have faith that the choice's the devs make for my favorite class will improve the experience.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    In one sense, I think aggro's pretty good on the warden now imo. Hated AoE threat, but began messing with different things based around Resolution spam from ThundrChickens post, haven't had an issue since, except when people are sporadic with what they are focusing. If anything, the only problem is trying to fit in survivability gambits (Which, laughably, was supposedly the whole focus point in the threat changes). Although, wiht the way things are now you only need a cappy to keep you alive in most raid content.
    Exactly what I had in mind for tanking... Resolution spam. Seems stupid, though. I don't want to spam one skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Lag sucks, and it sucks especially bad for wardens, since their APM is much higher than most every other class. But the fundamental system of slower builders with benefits on short cooldown, the faster masteries on longer cooldwn, and the short but meaningful cooldown on the gambit execute skill is fantastic. It rewards intelligent order of operations and planning ahead. Back when lag was a minimized and occasional issue, churning out gambits at a sufficient rate to 'keep up' with other classes was no problem, and when lag isn't crushing everyones experience now, the same holds true.

    Just fix the damn lag in this game.
    I can agree on this, but back when I was playing on my laptop, I was lagging like mad in every instance, and every moment of PvP. Looking back at the videos I made back then, I'm surprised the settings were on medium. But anyway, I learned to play with lag, it's not the biggest issue, really. Right now, it's just the class that needs tweaking.
    Last edited by Giliodor; Dec 15 2013 at 04:03 AM.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Lol yeah it crits 5k in my PvP gear (lvl 85) unbuffed. Also, the 2 bleeds from SoV seems OP. Oh well, I had hoped to lose all the fotm wardens this update, but it's only been made worse. I heard that bleeds aren't fixed in 12.1? Way to go.
    Most of the fotm wardens will have moved away since assailment stopped being l0lookatmeimopewpewrangedwallo fsteelspamcritbaml00000lwinzor z.

    Those left over will have moved to bleed stacking if they were able to adapt.

    Fotm wardens won't be gone until tanking is more than spamming 1 skill with 3 self buffs up (Which, it's approaching the time when, since launch, warden tanking has been mostly [insert gambit here] spam) and assailment is duly given back to miley cyrus for good.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Most of the fotm wardens will have moved away since assailment stopped being l0lookatmeimopewpewrangedwallo fsteelspamcritbaml00000lwinzor z.

    Those left over will have moved to bleed stacking if they were able to adapt.

    Fotm wardens won't be gone until tanking is more than spamming 1 skill with 3 self buffs up (Which, it's approaching the time when, since launch, warden tanking has been mostly [insert gambit here] spam) and assailment is duly given back to miley cyrus for good.
    Lol yeah agreed, but since you don't need to swap stances anymore, you can spam bleeds and heals at the same time. Also, bleeds aren't mitigated, and fist DoT's are ridiculously overpowered right now. Especially if you can apply 2x the SoV DoT with one use (basically). So yeah it's still fotm, but now in melee, so they will actually have to move properly... Oh my!
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Lol yeah agreed, but since you don't need to swap stances anymore, you can spam bleeds and heals at the same time. Also, bleeds aren't mitigated, and fist DoT's are ridiculously overpowered right now. Especially if you can apply 2x the SoV DoT with one use (basically). So yeah it's still fotm, but now in melee, so they will actually have to move properly... Oh my!
    You and Constrictions really haven't considered the possibilities with assailment? I can kill the raid sized warband in HD, on foot, without ever taking a single hit in response. If I hit a reaver before they get charge off, I can kill them without EVER taking a hit, and if they do get it off, they must kill be before the charge duration expires.

    Assailment may lack the raw damage of recklessness, but a 45% slow, in-combat knockdown with 40m range, those unmitigated bleed, and those heals from range make for every bit of the fotm faceroll people primarily interested in 'winning' are looking for.
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    You and Constrictions really haven't considered the possibilities with assailment? I can kill the raid sized warband in HD, on foot, without ever taking a single hit in response. If I hit a reaver before they get charge off, I can kill them without EVER taking a hit, and if they do get it off, they must kill be before the charge duration expires.

    Assailment may lack the raw damage of recklessness, but a 45% slow, in-combat knockdown with 40m range, those unmitigated bleed, and those heals from range make for every bit of the fotm faceroll people primarily interested in 'winning' are looking for.
    I haven't played yellow at all, except in BB's, where it's completely broken (Constantly ooc... Really?). But... 45% slow? What? There's sprints and stuff to counter that, but mmkay I agree. Sounds pretty Fotm QQ
    Feailuve - Akabath
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  19. #119
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    Dont really have problem with the in combat ambush, the skill needed some love but could increase its cooldown to 45s so it is in par with wages of fear.
    The 45% slow which hits 5 targets with 35 sec duration and 20 sec cd is ridicilous though. This should be back to -30%, cd 45 seconds and maybe 3 targets like mini skill cry of the wizard.
    I also think the "harried" debuff which reduces ranged damage down to 25% when taking damage and meele damage should be remove and add hit-to-move miss chance for javelin builders and gambits which are "ranged" attacks. As i understand "harried" debuff was created because javelin gambits no longer have the minium range penalty. I have seen the harried debuff problematic in many cases but especially in raid v raid where meele pet spider can cripple us when we try to support fellowship and do dps at the same time as yellow warden. Moving penalty for javelin gambits which are ranged attacks is more resonable option for PvE and PvP as a debuff.
    Terminaattori of Elendilmir

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    You and Constrictions really haven't considered the possibilities with assailment? I can kill the raid sized warband in HD, on foot,
    May I assume you're not referring to macsen?

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    May I assume you're not referring to macsen?
    Bethan

    12345
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  22. #122
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    The raid WBs are Priestess Bethan, the troll group (forgot name), Macsen, and Scion of the Great Boar.
    Every one of these is more manageable in Determination, though Macsen would also probably be suicide to try in Det.
    You also can't kite any instance bosses since they are typically immune to slows.
    My compliments on killing Bethan unharmed, I'd thought there were too many adds to all slow at once.
    Gremblus, Seuer, Grinand Bearit, and various others of Arkenstone

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Bethan

    12345
    ROLF.. a mini and I doued Bethan.. and he only came after I had burned down all her adds. I do like that she does not fear the person who has her aggro. :P

    Grtz on the solo kill.

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    ROLF.. a mini and I doued Bethan.. and he only came after I had burned down all her adds. I do like that she does not fear the person who has her aggro. :P

    Grtz on the solo kill.
    Eh, i wasn't at all an accomplishment. I'm its done every day by hundreds of people. The point was merely that we have a slow powerful enough that a small group of enemies can NEVER touch us while we dps them completely uninhibited, if they don't have a ranged attack of their own or a slow immunity. I could probably kill Fastilocanon (or however you spell it, the huge turtle in the swamp) without any gear on, and never take a hit.

    The slow is dumb.
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  25. #125
    I am experiencing a significant delay after using Surety of Death...the next gambit builder does not go off for the next attack after this gambit...instead there is a mandatory auto-attack that needs to occur after the execution of this skill. This happens mid rotation as well as starting off with this gambit.

    What happens after using Surety of Death:
    1. Surety of Death
    2. Mandatory auto attack
    3. Gambit Builder or Mastery

    What happens to any other gambit:
    1. Example: Celebration of Skill (Shield-Spear-Shield-Spear)
    2. Gambit Builder or Mastery

    This one attack delay is causing me to basically miss the first gambit builder in my next gambit sequence...Thus looking something like this if i wanted to do two surety of death's back to back.

    1. Pressed Fist (1st gambit in loader)
    2. Pressed Shield (2nd gambit in loader)
    3. Pressed Fist (3rd gambit in loader)
    4. Pressed Shield (4th gambit in loader)
    5. Execute Gambit -> Surety of Death
    6. Pressed Fist (Instead auto attack happens)
    7. Pressed Shield (Shield is now the 1st gambit in the loader)
    8. Pressed Fist (2nd gambit in loader)
    9. Pressed Shield (3rd gambit in loader)
    5. Execute Gambit -> Brink of victory instead of Surety of Death

    This is just inconsistent and feels very clunky...

    Edit: This also happens after Maddening Strike (Shield Fist Shield)

    Also - The Finishing Blow - Impressive Flourish +20% Healing from Conviction only seems to have a ~10% increase instead of 20%. Example 726 -> 796
    Last edited by Ravdor; Dec 18 2013 at 01:52 PM.
    Ravdor, Hunter | Bamor, R12 Warden | Imladris -> CrickHollow | Raid Leader of DarkCarnage
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