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Thread: PvMP Etiquette

  1. #26
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    Show no quarter and expect none.
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  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Daec View Post
    Show no quarter and expect none.

    There are times when I think this sort of approach leads to fewer points for both sides. A good example is flipping the map red or blue. When one side does this, what typically follows is either a Grams or GV camp, or the side with no OPs and no Keeps spends most of their time concentrating on regaining some parity there instead of PvPing. GV/Grams camp fights or dueling PvEing generally don't yield many points for either side.

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    There are times when I think this sort of approach leads to fewer points for both sides. A good example is flipping the map red or blue. When one side does this, what typically follows is either a Grams or GV camp, or the side with no OPs and no Keeps spends most of their time concentrating on regaining some parity there instead of PvPing. GV/Grams camp fights or dueling PvEing generally don't yield many points for either side.
    Right. This is the human factor that I don't think gets alluded to enough, especially in Lotro's closed off PVP zone. There's guaranteed short term gains (see above OP quote) vs potentially bigger but uncertain long term gains (keeping OP equal, pushing into red NPCs when you are stronger). Fights with both sides getting points generally last longer and yield more points than anything different is a fair assumption. Not everyone has to be aware of this, it only takes leaders to point this out.

    Toss this out though when the game in question has an assembly line of new players loggin in to fill any void. Lotro doesn't have this problem.

    Or if I only have 30min to game, I'm going to maximize my points even if it means defeating the same 3 guys over and over with my group of 12 until the 30min is up or they log.

    TLDR:Older games are subject to etiquette issues more than newer ones and that player you ganked with your 12 randoms won't respawn in the same place a 4th time and no ones gonna take his place
    Last edited by couillon; Jan 31 2014 at 07:29 PM.
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  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Breeon View Post
    For example, on the one server I learned that there is something of an unspoken 1v1 rule, whereby if you come across 2 players fighting you're not to interfere. On my home server, however, it seems like all bets are off and there would be no such understanding. This may also have something to do with characters being higher ranked, in that fresh recruits are considered more dispensable.
    Unless I'm in a very remote location of the map, I ussually attack first and ask questions later. If you're having a 1v1 at GTA, you can expect to be interrupted. It's an open PvP zone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breeon View Post
    On at least 2 of the servers I was on today, it was virtually the same experience with Freeps and Creeps running back and forth, up and down the hill, between Lugazag and Gram's Camp. Seems a bit monotonous after a while. Why not do something more interesting and split off into groups or just relocate?
    It's extremely monotonous. Unfortunately if you are low ranked you probably have little choice other than follow the zerg (except maybe some freep classes). When you rank up you will be able to solo more effectively, and then you can leave the shuffle and go find some food on your own. Of course, many times the only food you will find are those that are heading to the shuffle, so it can still be monotonous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    There are times when I think this sort of approach leads to fewer points for both sides. A good example is flipping the map red or blue. When one side does this, what typically follows is either a Grams or GV camp, or the side with no OPs and no Keeps spends most of their time concentrating on regaining some parity there instead of PvPing. GV/Grams camp fights or dueling PvEing generally don't yield many points for either side.
    Who cares about the points? I ussually solo, but when I raid, I fully hope to obliterate the freeps. All the better if we make them log. Extra points if you manage to make them cry in the forums. I play on BW, so fortunately action isn't scarce enough that we have to baby-sit our foes when they show up. Yes, maybe having one side completely outclassed isn't great for the moors. But IMO orchestrated engagements where both sides are holding up (be it in numbers, or whatever form of self-gimping they might have), are no fun either. It feels too artificial, and defeats the purpose of open PvP.

    This is the same reason why I dislike organized 1v1s. I dislike knowing that my enemy could have used something to win and didn't. In the same manner, I dislike knowing I could've used something to win, but I'm not allowed to. Turbine gave us poor balance, but in order to counter it, we decied to forbid some skills, or the use of terrain or NPCs, and made fights extremely monotonous and one-dimensonal.
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  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    I ussually solo, but when I raid, I fully hope to obliterate the freeps. All the better if we make them log.
    In Nature, when predators drive their prey to extinction, they usually follow them there. How much fun would you have if freeps decided to just PvE outside of the moors. Would you jump for joy because you had the moors all to yourself since you don't care about getting any points?

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    Yes, maybe having one side completely outclassed isn't great for the moors. But IMO orchestrated engagements where both sides are holding up (be it in numbers, or whatever form of self-gimping they might have), are no fun either.
    So when freeps are mostly soloing, would you group to "obliterate" them and "make them log"? If they grouped to 12, would you group to 24 so you could still accomplish this? I read that you "ussually solo", but your philosophy seems at odds with this if your desire it to obliterate them and drive them from the map.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    This is the same reason why I dislike organized 1v1s.
    No one is going to force you to participate in one. Some people enjoy them. If you don't, who cares?
    Last edited by Nouri; Feb 10 2014 at 01:45 PM.

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  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    In Nature, when predators drive their prey to extinction, they usually follow them there. How much fun would you have if freeps decided to just PvE outside of the moors. Would you jump for joy because you had the moors all to yourself since you don't care about getting any points?
    great analogy.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    In Nature, when predators drive their prey to extinction, they usually follow them there. How much fun would you have if freeps decided to just PvE outside of the moors. Would you jump for joy because you had the moors all to yourself since you don't care about getting any points?
    Except that I specifically said that in BW we don't have to baby-sit our foes in order for them to come out. Forming a raid and destroying them will, in the worst scenario, make them disband. Then we can disband as well. Many freeps will still be online for solo action.

    And even if they do log, I still think this: I rather have one fight where both sides gave it their all and tried their best, using all the resources at their disposal, than three hours of constant fighting where both sides are holding back, trying not to make their opponents log. In the end, I might be 20-30k infamy short, but I'll know that they tried to beat me/us, and they couldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    So when freeps are mostly soloing, would you group to "obliterate" them and "make them log"? If they grouped to 12, would you group to 24 so you could still accomplish this? I read that you "ussually solo", but your philosophy seems at odds with this if your desire it to obliterate them and drive them from the map.
    LOL are you even playing the same game I am? It NEVER happens that freeps, as a group, are mostly soloing. Never. The same could probably be said about creeps.

    And no, if they were mostly soloing, I wouldn't do that. I only join raids when I get tired of getting repeatedly zerged, or maybe if my tribe-mates need a hand. And yeah, when I join, I fully hope to defeat them as bad as I can. The same when I solo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    No one is going to force you to participate in one. Some people enjoy them. If you don't, who cares?
    Oh, for sure. I was just explaining the way I thought.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by poxnoxious View Post
    Nah, if they lowranked/#### geared I generally eat 'em only once and let 'em be after that, unless it's a 'clubber of course. Assuming I can eat 'em obviously.
    Quote Originally Posted by poxnoxious View Post
    These two collide. I rarely touch soloing redrank freeps out questing. I may toy with them depending on my mood, but generally I leave 'em alive unless they are grouped, then I eat 'em all.
    Which is it? Kill them once then let them be or rarely touch them?
    That starts I guess with people respecting others points of view. I did try and put it tongue-in-cheek and only semi-serious but I guess that's lost on you.- A forum poster

  9. #34
    Im torn.

    I honor the 1v1 at GTA all the time - though I've been ganked there.

    If I see a lone creep - I usually attack first - however I tried it the other way last week.

    Newbie warg was in the mines - killing and getting ore as I was. We saw each other and I coninued mining ore as did he - We decided not to fight.
    75 ore later..... I see him sneaking up on me.... I changed to dps, burned red and warned him..... He still attacked in stealth and I burned him for it.
    150 renown later nom nom nom......

    ITs a PVP zone and I respecte him for it. He tried.

    I joined a Tribe on my creep and told them who my freeps are. They were very nice and Still promised to kill me when I run Freep - Which made me laugh.
    I say kill what you can - but I HATE GRams camps now....

    Side note - I have never died so much on my reaver as last night - but I kept comming back for more. Got a few kills and I left happy. Why do I not care when my creep dies - but I hate it when my freep does????
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felajarko View Post
    Which is it? Kill them once then let them be or rarely touch them?
    Blue ranks are lowranks too these days, and I see green ranks with hilarious gear/traits/specs. What exactly are you asking to my good man?

    If you read it again, and take it in context, what doubts you have should evaporate as fast as mountain dew within arms reach of a tween..
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArrexBloodclot View Post
    Side note - I have never died so much on my reaver as last night - but I kept comming back for more. Got a few kills and I left happy. Why do I not care when my creep dies - but I hate it when my freep does????
    easy, you probably have little, if any, time invested in your creep....compared to the /hours played on your 95 freep. Play creepside more and you'll see that bell curve move in the other direction when you realize you don't fell appreciated (maybe invested is a better word) by "giving" away cheap kills to lazy players. ;D
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArrexBloodclot View Post
    IWhy do I not care when my creep dies - but I hate it when my freep does????
    Probably because creeps are build, born and bred for dying, which is why they should be rewarded inf. for that as well as getting kills.
    Dying is expected of a creep, not so much of a freep. It's a rare few creeps that leaves Grams that I know off that expect to get back home alive. (a few wargs and weavers, but they are very very rare indeed.) On the other hand I wouldn't say it's generally expected on freep side, but there are far more on that side that have high hopes they might achieve just that. Probably because those hopes are reasonably well founded.

    I play both sides, though my black heart and the void which should have contained my soul, belongs to creeps. Maybe that is why I don't mind dying on my freeps either. And tbf I know of a lot of other freeps who don't care about dying as well. There's just more freeps that do. I have a feeling to as why that might be, but I cba getting into that right now
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by poxnoxious View Post
    And tbf I know of a lot of other freeps who don't care about dying as well. There's just more freeps that do. I have a feeling to as why that might be, but I cba getting into that right now
    I think expectation is a lot to do with it. When you level up on a freep, the point is to complete quests and in doing obviously survive to complete the task. (undying title anyone?) So freeps play style from the outset is survive at all costs. Creeps cannot be like that. They start at max level but are hampered by rank limitations which leave them having to die over and over and over to be able to progress.

    There is then a marked difference (generally, not in all cases obviously) in play styles from freep to creep even if it is the same person behind the keyboard, it's all about expectation and perception.

    Time invested has a little to do with it but there are veteran creeps who will still venture out into moors and expect to die to get kills. Most freeps don't.
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  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by ArrexBloodclot View Post
    Side note - I have never died so much on my reaver as last night - but I kept comming back for more. Got a few kills and I left happy. Why do I not care when my creep dies - but I hate it when my freep does????
    You have a personal connection with freep, spending many hours of time, from boorish, to best times ever groups, raids, questing quality PvE times. its a shame that creeps don't have this opportunity. So I think pride has a lot to do with it, don't get me wrong I love my creep too. but auto leveling takes no effort and leaves creeps nothing much to do while freeps meet their caps.

    edited to say quality PvE times, not including HD of course.

  15. #40
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    When I go out with Rainothon I expect to die. I don't gear nor trait for maximum survival. I know this puts me at a disadvantage and I like it. If I want faceroll, I PvE.

    I don't mind dying. I know if I encounter a creep there's a good chance I'll die. I know if I'm against multiple creeps I will likely die, and my effort will be to take at least one down with me.

    I don't flee. If I run it is to position myself for a better advantage.

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainothon View Post
    When I go out with Rainothon I expect to die. I don't gear nor trait for maximum survival. I know this puts me at a disadvantage and I like it. If I want faceroll, I PvE.

    I don't mind dying. I know if I encounter a creep there's a good chance I'll die. I know if I'm against multiple creeps I will likely die, and my effort will be to take at least one down with me.

    I don't flee. If I run it is to position myself for a better advantage.
    ^ If you aren't built full-on glass cannon, you are doing the Moors wrong.

  17. #42
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    hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by Breeon View Post
    I'm wondering what the DO's and DON'Ts are of PvMP.

    And when you're not in a fellowship/group, is Open Tapping acceptable?

    Do or do not,to me depends on how you learn the moors
    really,because if you happen to be in a larger kin that has
    a few players there already then it's possible you have a
    way into groups as they know you already.Then you
    pick up on how your server does things as you learn
    your way around and can get tips as you go.

    On the other side of it,if you end up solo all the time
    for whatever reason then I say anything goes,even
    open tapping or zerging a solo on a quest.If others
    say anything about it,you just let them know if they
    want to group with you to show you what your
    supposed to be doing your willing.

    some of the choice is on other players if they want to try to teach the rookies how
    it goes so they don't end up just getting in the way,and if they don't then I say
    anything goes for both freeps and creeps.
    Last edited by Arandeath; Mar 09 2014 at 10:41 AM. Reason: adding comment

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Arandeath View Post
    Do or do not,to me depends on how you learn the moors
    really,because if you happen to be in a larger kin that has
    a few players there already then it's possible you have a
    way into groups as they know you already.Then you
    pick up on how your server does things as you learn
    your way around and can get tips as you go.

    On the other side of it,if you end up solo all the time
    for whatever reason then I say anything goes,even
    open tapping or zerging a solo on a quest.If others
    say anything about it,you just let them know if they
    want to group with you to show you what your
    supposed to be doing your willing.

    some of the choice is on other players if they want to try to teach the rookies how
    it goes so they don't end up just getting in the way,and if they don't then I say
    anything goes for both freeps and creeps.
    Yeah Man I hear ya about learning the ropes, wish someone would have taught this guard I tried to fight an impromptu 1v1 with one some basic etiquette.
    I ran into a guardian in between lumber camp and hithlad outpost killing npcs, he was at full morale attacking only one npc so I say wth lets go, I attack him, he immediately burns the "I came here to PvE gonna run back to GV" Skill, commonly known as Sprint, and being wise to map locations I just map good grimwood which puts me right in the path of his fleeing from confrontation. I soon learned Guardians not only have Sprint but now have been given their own version of Desperate Flight because he stops running and when I get him to about 50% morale just disappears. Sure I've combat logged on a zerg before a few times, but in general just man up and die because I'd rather not hear the snowstorm of crying over how I denied a raid versus solo/duo a kill, but yet to try it on 1v1. Thoughts?
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  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Vezz View Post
    Yeah Man I hear ya about learning the ropes, wish someone would have taught this guard I tried to fight an impromptu 1v1 with one some basic etiquette.
    I ran into a guardian in between lumber camp and hithlad outpost killing npcs, he was at full morale attacking only one npc so I say wth lets go, I attack him, he immediately burns the "I came here to PvE gonna run back to GV" Skill, commonly known as Sprint, and being wise to map locations I just map good grimwood which puts me right in the path of his fleeing from confrontation. I soon learned Guardians not only have Sprint but now have been given their own version of Desperate Flight because he stops running and when I get him to about 50% morale just disappears. Sure I've combat logged on a zerg before a few times, but in general just man up and die because I'd rather not hear the snowstorm of crying over how I denied a raid versus solo/duo a kill, but yet to try it on 1v1. Thoughts?
    I totally agree: just man up and die. I think this means HIPS should be unusable in the moors for wargs and burgs then, no?

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Decaran View Post
    I totally agree: just man up and die. I think this means HIPS should be unusable in the moors for wargs and burgs then, no?
    This comment is not meant to promote class changes just to show how even though the short 10 second logout timer can be abused by healers and tankish classes to avoid dying it is poor etiquette, although I have done it a few times against a fraid who chased me down because of a cryout in Glff/OOC that they (meaning a member who died and didn't get rezed) were killed in route to the Farm they had set up at Tr or Lugz. Was my action right..not really, was getting zerged by a fraid good etiquette, depends, but logging out when you are only getting attacked by 1 player is laughable. Also when its a full on zerg versus zerg fight, the class I see dying the most even thought they have hips is wargs, you can hips at 20k morale and if you have more than a few dots on you...most likely you are dead...so hips doesn't really save you against the ridiculous dots that Freeps have at. Also if Turbine agreed with the Man up and die statement as you most likely took it to mean, then certainly they would have never given the Burg a free hips Via Coupe De Grace.

    Back to my original issue, I think in retrospect that the current timer on combat should be redone so that out of combat it is 10 seconds but anytime during that 10 seconds you are put into combat (or if you start the log out process in combat) then it should be changed to 30 seconds total, so say you were trying to combat log on someone and 9 seconds went by before they hit you, you are put into combat, and therefore have an additional 21 seconds more before the logout goes thru, not sure if possible but this would be a good solution to make quick switching in safe zones faster, but alleviate some of the problems with people combat logging to avoid death in PvP areas.
    Last edited by Vezz; Mar 10 2014 at 12:51 AM.
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  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Vezz View Post
    This comment is not meant to promote class changes just to show how even though the short 10 second logout timer can be abused by healers and tankish classes to avoid dying it is poor etiquette, although I have done it a few times against a fraid who chased me down because of a cryout in Glff/OOC that they (meaning a member who died and didn't get rezed) were killed in route to the Farm they had set up at Tr or Lugz. Was my action right..not really, was getting zerged by a fraid good etiquette, depends, but logging out when you are only getting attacked by 1 player is laughable. Also when its a full on zerg versus zerg fight, the class I see dying the most even thought they have hips is wargs, you can hips at 20k morale and if you have more than a few dots on you...most likely you are dead...so hips doesn't really save you against the ridiculous dots that Freeps have at. Also if Turbine agreed with the Man up and die statement as you most likely took it to mean, then certainly they would have never given the Burg a free hips Via Coupe De Grace.

    Back to my original issue, I think in retrospect that the current timer on combat should be redone so that out of combat it is 10 seconds but anytime during that 10 seconds you are put into combat (or if you start the log out process in combat) then it should be changed to 30 seconds total, so say you were trying to combat log on someone and 9 seconds went by before they hit you, you are put into combat, and therefore have an additional 21 seconds more before the logout goes thru, not sure if possible but this would be a good solution to make quick switching in safe zones faster, but alleviate some of the problems with people combat logging to avoid death in PvP areas.
    I'd like to see combat loggers get a 24 hour log-back-in lockout. Imo, there's no excuse for it under any circumstance. But tell me, as a warg, how many times have you used Disappear in a 1v1 to avoid a death? "logging out when you are only getting attacked by 1 player is laughable." <---- Isn't Disappearing as well?

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  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    I'd like to see combat loggers get a 24 hour log-back-in lockout. Imo, there's no excuse for it under any circumstance. But tell me, as a warg, how many times have you used Disappear in a 1v1 to avoid a death? "logging out when you are only getting attacked by 1 player is laughable." <---- Isn't Disappearing as well?
    What exactly does Warg mechanics have to do with combat logging, 2 times 2 different players started bringing up creep combat mechanics and their use as some type of poor use of etiquette....tbh i dont believe on my warg (which although my highest ranked is far from my main considering I've been in the ettenmoors creeping for 3 years almost and have close to 4 rank 11's or higher) I've ever disappeared in a 1v1 unless it was to get a strategic advantage (another pounce from stealth etc) or if said player called out additional players to help him/her which threw the fight decidedly totally in the freeps favor. I'm not for giving guaranteed points to anyone, and If you have an issue with that use of hips, then you might as well start complaining about Minstrel Flop, Water Lore, Never Surrender, Last Stand, Guardian Sprint, Burglars Coupe De Grace, Hobbit Racial Flop, Epic Conclusion, Desperate Flight, impale, vital target, toxic carapace, warleader bubble, and defilers......um defilers sorta suck atm lols. But point is, this discussion was about unintended uses of game mechanics, the skills i listed have been tested, retested, nerfed or bumped appropriately over multiple expansions (most all) and still are in the game because they work as intended, I'm not sure where anyone would get use of them would be considered bad sportsmanship, and I'm not talking about their use in organized 1v1's, but lets keep this tread to use of skills and mechanics that are exploitive in nature and therefore considered cheating, everything else should be complained about in class design threads if the goal is to nerf or buff certain classes abilities.
    Last edited by Vezz; Mar 10 2014 at 11:23 AM.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    I'd like to see combat loggers get a 24 hour log-back-in lockout. Imo, there's no excuse for it under any circumstance. But tell me, as a warg, how many times have you used Disappear in a 1v1 to avoid a death? "logging out when you are only getting attacked by 1 player is laughable." <---- Isn't Disappearing as well?
    Combat logging is really unsportsmanly. Applying a form of automated punishment for it may be a stretch too far, unless it can be done in a way that accounts for unintentional loss of connection and other unintended forms of logging out. A 24 hour log-back-in lockout sounds fair though.

    Retreating from a battle using stealth as a warg is generally not brave if done to flee. But it's something a warg can specifically do as a class and it is one of their key strengths. Why force them to fight with one paw tied to their back?

    Maybe the warg should get a buff when getting killed in battle? As an incentive and reward for not fleeing? The other way round (a debuff for fleeing) would be punishing for using a skill that is partly for that purpose and looks unfair to me.

  24. #49
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    151
    Quote Originally Posted by Breeon View Post

    For example, on the one server I learned that there is something of an unspoken 1v1 rule, whereby if you come across 2 players fighting you're not to interfere. On my home server, however, it seems like all bets are off and there would be no such understanding. This may also have something to do with characters being higher ranked, in that fresh recruits are considered more dispensable.

    What about tolerance, and how is hazing even acceptable? If a Pick up group gets frustrated and boots you because your armor sucks, you keep dying, and have no rank, how is this at all helpful?

    And when you're not in a fellowship/group, is Open Tapping acceptable?

    I still believe that if no one that has been in the moors a while steps up and
    is willing to teach or at least give tips on what you should/need to do then
    it opens up a "anything goes" play style for the moors,which is where I'm
    at because nobody ever said "do this and don't do that" to me.
    So the challenge to the veteran players is,stop complaining about the
    poor skills of the noobs and try giving some tips,not just repeating
    over and over "you fail" and expecting that to make a difference in how
    they play.
    Last edited by Arandeath; Jun 01 2014 at 05:02 PM.

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    indiana
    Posts
    151
    even though this thread seems dead,,,,,

    got a couple complaints from whiners,all i can say is what i told them.
    when i started in the moors i tried to do the group thing and get any
    tips to help be a "group" player and do better in PvMP,nobody stepped
    up so it's now a "anything goes" area for me.

    so when i pull your creep into the npc's, because i don't feel like bothering with you-----------no qq
    if i'm questing and log on your creep,,,,, because i don't feel like bothering with you-----------no qq
    (you could just take a hint and go away.)

    there are a couple freeps that sent me invites without having to ask or "x",and to
    them i say thank you very much because you are are better player than the
    rest of them will ever be,but i'm not set up for dealing dmg to creeps and have
    no plans to ever change that at this time.

    update:

    just today there were 4 freeps i grouped with that helped me get a little group
    experience, as i said,thank you for being the better player because it was fun
    to play with freeps that don't qq if they think your not as "pro" as they decided
    you should be.
    Last edited by Arandeath; Jun 01 2014 at 07:05 PM.

 

 
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