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  1. #1

    Grey Company Cosmetic Fix

    During the Grey Company session play quests, I noticed their shoulder pieces were on over top of the cloaks; however, the cosmetic items for my regular character are switched, showing the shoulder piece beneath the cloak. Could this possibly be fixed?

  2. #2
    I believe this situation is due to the difference in how NPC and PC appearances are down. I do not believe NPCs have shoulder pieces, cloaks, head gear, boots... Instead they have a one piece outfit. That is the way Creep characters are - you only have one appearance slot. Skirmish soldiers have a few slots like weapon, clothing, hair, race/gender ...
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  3. #3
    I guess that makes sense, but there are a few different cosmetic outfits that would look better with the shoulder piece over the cloak.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by True_Ranger View Post
    I guess that makes sense, but there are a few different cosmetic outfits that would look better with the shoulder piece over the cloak.
    That would require a change to the game software. Turbine would need to allow us to set the order that items are rendered. I do not know of any games that have this functionality. I wonder how much of a performance hit it would be.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  5. #5
    Well I was doing some research :P and it turns out, that SOME shoulder pieces go over the cloak. The very low leveled Light Shoulder Guards that wrap around your neck DO in fact go over the cloak, so I don't see how this is even an issue.


    Heres what I am talking about

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    That would require a change to the game software. Turbine would need to allow us to set the order that items are rendered. I do not know of any games that have this functionality. I wonder how much of a performance hit it would be.
    Not at all. Shoulder Piece over cloak means that the 3d volume of teh shoulder piece would have to be increased, if we don't want a real physics engine for every piece of clothing.
    For a realistic look we would need a physics engine, the shoulder piece over the cloak would have to know how big the cloak is and fall on it. Either that or the cloak would have to know that it's stuck between neck and the shoulder piece and transform accordingly. Both is not an option.

    Most clipping errors in a game depend on the 3D model design, not on the engine. I hardly found any "real" (engine based) clipping errors in Lotro, meaning that areas are visible that should be hidden. What most people call clipping errors in lotro is actually a "bad" design of the 3d models, meaning that that some do not mix up, do not fit. Some are too small, some too big.
    If you see flickering areas in games then usually the overlay surface of an object is too close to the real surface, so the Z-sorting does not work properly (after all for performance reasons, only single float numbers are used and often the calculation does not even reflect the float datatype to save time). Increasing the distance between the object and the overlay helps.


    But it really has nothing to do with the render order, because basically there is no given render order.
    Both pieces are rendered at the same time, the graphic engine sorts items by the z-distance, determines what is completely hidden, then clips the other objects to determine the areas which have to be painted. Only then it actually starts painting the items(actually there is a lot more to it, but that pretty much sums it up).

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by True_Ranger View Post
    Well I was doing some research :P and it turns out, that SOME shoulder pieces go over the cloak. The very low leveled Light Shoulder Guards that wrap around your neck DO in fact go over the cloak, so I don't see how this is even an issue.
    This cloak goes over the shoulder pads. It is designed with very thin straps. The artist would have to specifically design the cloak so that it does not cover the shoulder pads.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Neumi View Post
    I hardly found any "real" (engine based) clipping errors in Lotro, meaning that areas are visible that should be hidden. What most people call clipping errors in lotro is actually a "bad" design of the 3d models, meaning that that some do not mix up, do not fit. Some are too small, some too big.
    I've seen a lot of clipping issues:

    1) Bows going thru cloaks instead of deforming the cloak.
    2) Swords, axes and shields going into your horse.
    3) Axes going into the ground like plows.

    You can't fix these issues via the artwork. A six inch bow that hides under the cloak would look rather silly when you executed the Quick Shot animation.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  9. #9
    Heres a screenshot of my character standing next to lothrandir in echad dagoras. I don't understand how it would be an issue to swap this out. even if his cloak and shoulder are considered one piece, why cant ours, out shirt and pants are one piece.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    I've seen a lot of clipping issues:

    1) Bows going thru cloaks instead of deforming the cloak.
    2) Swords, axes and shields going into your horse.
    3) Axes going into the ground like plows.


    You can't fix these issues via the artwork. A six inch bow that hides under the cloak would look rather silly when you executed the Quick Shot animation.
    ... and that's why I said "real" (engine based) clipping errors., because these are not clipping errors at all.
    Actually all of these are artwork/graphical design/placement problems, but not clipping errors.

    The sword goes into the horse? It's not rendered or clipped wrong, it's placed wrong. The sword is displayed partially under the horse skin, because it IS under the horse skin. It's placed there, it's just bad design.
    Everything clips as it's supposed to do. A clipping error would be if the axe from your 3rd example would be fully visible or if the blade and the floor would both be rendered and flicker. The blade is inside the ground, so it has to be hidden. If one object is inside or behind another, the first one must be invisible, that's clipping.

    "Clipping (computer graphics), only drawing things that will be visible to the viewer"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clippin...er_graphics%29

    I usually don't refer to wiki, but this quote has 2 important words: "will be". It's not "should be", it's "will be".
    You must not confuse logical real world problems with graphical problems (and clipping is a pure graphical problem). What too many people call clipping errors (and software designers shouldn't) is based on their understanding of how physical items should be placed and react to each other. But all the things in the game are not physical, they have no body. They are just displays. Never ever will a character stand, sit or lie on the ground, hold his sword, never will a sword actually hit an enemy. It's all just animations. The only "physical" thing we have in the game are the hitboxes and the coordinate system.

    When our characters walk, all that really happens is that our hitbox gets moved in X/Y. If the ground geomatry information says that the ground is slant, also the Z-coordinate will change, performing a jump will temporarily move the hitbox up, then let it go down again until the hitbox collides with a solid (ground) object. NPCs don't have a area where we can stand on. That would be possible, and in other games it is, but not in Lotro. If the ground is slant, sometimes our character will also be displayed slant, but in the game system, he isn't.
    When we attack, no sword will hit, no arrow will find it's target. The server performs some checks, uses some random calculation, tell us what happens, then our client will show a animation that displays what happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    This cloak goes over the shoulder pads. It is designed with very thin straps. The artist would have to specifically design the cloak so that it does not cover the shoulder pads.
    As you just said, it's a design question, but you made a mistake: the cloak does not "go over the shoulder pads". It's designed in a way that it looks as if it did, but it doesn't. It has no information about how big the shoulder pads are and it can't adapt. It's clipped correctly and the only way to change it is to change the design. Changing the render engine won't help.

    Yes, it's a visual problem, but no, it's not a clipping error. The terminology is wrong.


    Edit: Just to make it clear what clipping really means:

    The square is a window, the colored lines are behind the square, therefore the parts of the colored areas outside the square should not be visiible. That's clipping, nothing more. If the window is placed at the wrong location or the line is closer than the square and therefore visible, that's not a clipping error.
    Last edited by Neumi; Nov 08 2013 at 04:52 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by True_Ranger View Post
    Heres a screenshot of my character standing next to lothrandir in echad dagoras. I don't understand how it would be an issue to swap this out. even if his cloak and shoulder are considered one piece, why cant ours, out shirt and pants are one piece.
    Currently "suits" can't hide shoulder pads and cloaks but it would easily be possible to create such a system.
    We have many upper body clothing that prevent the rendering of pants, some upper body clothing that prevent gloves or boots.
    They contain information such as:
    piece1:
    allowRenderingGloves = yes
    allowRenderingPants = no
    allowRenderingBoots = yes
    (*note: I use fantasy names, the real name of the variables is certainly another)

    When the characters are displayed, the engine checks what it should render and in this case it does not render the pants.

    It would be possible to add a field that prevents the rendering of the shoulder pads as well. Then the model of the suit would have to include the shoulder pads.

    I don't know if a upper body piece can also animate a cloak or if the cloak model would be able to animate body parts, but it would certainly possible to do so.

  12. #12
    but during the session play, the upper part of the cloak doesn't look funny when you move. theres no clipping or 3D errors, it works fine. I just don't understand why they changed the way the original looks because in my opinion, the NPC looks better than I do

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by True_Ranger View Post
    but during the session play, the upper part of the cloak doesn't look funny when you move. theres no clipping or 3D errors, it works fine. I just don't understand why they changed the way the original looks because in my opinion, the NPC looks better than I do
    During the session play, you are not using a normal customizable character model. They have more control over the rigging and clipping as a result.
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    Quote Originally Posted by True_Ranger View Post
    Heres a screenshot of my character standing next to lothrandir in echad dagoras ...

    This don't look odd like a error. Lothrandir put the cloak 1st then the shoulder. You put the shoulders 1st then the cloak.
    Is this Alternate Character Disorder? :


  15. #15
    this still should be an easy fix, whether it be customizable or not.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by True_Ranger View Post
    this still should be an easy fix, whether it be customizable or not.
    They could change the model, so the shoulder pads are smaller, but that would just create other problems.
    After all we have different player models and the shoulder pads adapt to the model according to certain rules which by far don't cover all possibilities.

    Designing the thing for ONE char model is easy, to make it work for different models is not so easy.

  17. #17
    Couldn't they just change the order the shoulder pads go on?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by True_Ranger View Post
    Couldn't they just change the order the shoulder pads go on?
    That's what Yula suggested and the answer is still "no", because there is no order.

    The decision, if an area is visible or not, is a standard functionality and it works correctly. The cloak really lies behind/under the shoulder pads, it just does, end of story.
    It would be a rendering error to display the cloak completely and it would look really strange, trust me. Keeping these parts of the cloak invisible is absolutely correct, the render engine knows the coordinates of the cloak area and hides it.

    You must stop thinking in 2D, stop thinking in layers where one gets put above another. All the graphical elements are triangular areas in a 3D world, they have coordinates, a orientation and so on. The engine has this whole mass of information, then sorts through what lies outside the screen, behind the camera, what faces in a different direction (away from the camera). Once these parts are eliminated, it starts finding out which areas hide another or do so partially, because they are nearer, finds out what part of the partially hidden area still has to be painted. Once all this sorting and deciding is done, the visible areas are being painted. After this rendering additional 2D elements like the chat window are being added (or the box is a 3D model itself, this way it would hide a whole bunch of things and save rendering time).

  19. #19
    But why would that be any different to the NPC's 3D design?? I just don't understand it.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by True_Ranger View Post
    But why would that be any different to the NPC's 3D design?? I just don't understand it.
    Basically because the NPCs have no body under the clothes.

    Designing one model (the ranger including clothes) is a lot easier than creating clothing that adjusts to the body type, scales with the size, muscles, gender, race. If it is not just a skin (like a shirt) and sits too tight, you will very often see body parts showing through. So the easy solution is to have it not fit tightly to the body structure, to make it bigger. But that's just the shoulder parts for now, at this point the cloak would have to be moved further away from the body as well, but that would look ###### combined with smaller shoulder parts which do not cover the back of the char.

    The more customization options you have for a player model, the more complicalted it becomes to make them fit to each other. If all you have are full-body-suits, then it's very easy, but not if you have armor/shirt, shoulder parts AND cloak. In this case other than most other shoulder parts this part also covers part of the back and collides with the cloak.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's possible to make them fit "better", but it will never be perfect.

 

 

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