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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiteberry_Laurelin View Post
    The thing is; no matter how civilized you make a post - if it is critical of something there will always be uncivilized responses and that will often get a thread closed too, almost always regardless of the original poster's intent. In a perfect world, those responses would be modified/hidden/deleted and the thread could continue, but that is a question of resources I imagine, and closing the thread is the resource-friendly way of doing it.
    What constitutes as a "Civilized Post" and what isn't is subjective of course.

    Better to simply use the ignore function except in extreme cases I think.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    But I would council against dismissing feedback just because they are harshly delivered. It is more often than not probably just frustration and disappointment that is to blame rather hate.
    Pardon while I set my own rant flag here...

    This mindset is indicative of something that has been almost completely lost from modern discourse - civility. We've instead substituted vitriol and vulgarity and think people should just deal with it.

    I used to have a quote hanging on the wall of my bedroom that went something like "A diplomat is someone who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that you actually look forward to the trip." Long gone are the days when rhetoric and presentation were considered as a matter of course when trying to argue or sway opinion. Nowadays a lot of people seem to take it as a personal insult if you ask them refrain from using profanity or vulgarity - it hasn't been all THAT long ago that I was taught growing up that you don't use profanity and vulgarity in polite company.

    Just because you're frustrated and disappointed doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to observe society's rules. People who can't be bothered to maintain civil discussion under stress should not be surprised when other people who have been put under stress by their discourtesy choose to avoid/ignore the source of stress.

    But that's just my two one-hundredths of a dollar, unadjusted for inflation.
    Mostly Harmless since 1999!
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    What constitutes as a "Civilized Post" and what isn't is subjective of course.
    Definitely. However, my point was that if you make a perfectly civilized post (according to Turbine), sometimes the responses and how the discussion evolves will get the thread closed.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience
    Still 100% the wrong way to go about providing feedback.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Maybe.
    Maybe nothing. Vulgarity and hateful ranting is always 100% the wrong way to go about providing feedback.
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  5. #30
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    I run a support team for a software house. We provide first-line support and the QA function for the business. My team have instructions that anyone who is rude or abusive is passed to me to deal with, we don't pay them to be someone's training dummy when the customer is having a bad day.

    As with all software systems, sometimes things go wrong. Sometimes it's our fault, sometimes the customer has broken it, sometimes it's a third party (looks sideways at Microsoft and automatic updates...). The focus of our work is to get it fixed, and get the customer working. By far the majority of customers help this process by providing us with information calmly, and politely. Some (all people being different) have to "bark" to vent their frustration, that's fine, they shout at me for a minute or two, calm down, and then we discuss it rationally.

    One customer has an IT manager who is banned from ringing the support line under any circumstances. This ban was put in place by me, and has the full support of his company's board. He's banned as he had a habit of abusing, swearing at, insulting and threatening anyone who had the misfortune to pick up the phone. I found this unacceptable, but that's by-the-way. The main reason for the ban is that while this guy was blowing his top we got no useful information at all, the problem continued, we couldn't do anything useful. His lack of civility served to make the problem last longer and potentially get worse. It did precisely nothing to solve it.

    So yes, I would very much agree that how a person complains is as important as the nature of their complaint. And I really don't agree that being rude and insulting to your provider's staff gets results - quite the reverse in my experience.

  6. #31
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    I want to know why the definition of "hate and vitrol" changes depending on whether or not your post is Pro-Turbine(fanboi) or critical of Turbine(hater)

    The same criteria needs to be leveled evenly....

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Maybe.
    I'm with the rest here. Ranting is never, ever, a valid form of feedback.

    It does have its function as a venting mechanism, but that should never be directed at the person you want to give feedback to.

    First vent, wherever you have someone you know is willing to listen and maybe rant along. Then gather your thoughts and form civil, actionable feedback.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainothon View Post
    Aye, there is a reason why I mention Kate Paiz in my post.

    There is a huge potential power in communication from 'the boss' so to speak. For reasons unknown to me, Turbine does not employ this power. It's like a government that only let's their clerks speak, not the president. It's ... rather wierd.
    Go read Rob Pardo's defense of Jay Wilson and what ensued, that's why Kate Paiz is not likely to post here on something controversial. As much as I'd like her to and love to read the post.

    Imo HD expac is going to set some awesome records and be a great experience for the vast majority of players ... so that in a year or two, a certain very select few will again be able to ironically "predict" the doom of this game ... just like they did last year, and the year before ... and, oh wait, they were doing in 2008 .....

    Peace everyone, if it was up to me we'd all be able to play immersive middle-earth video games, or actually be in middle-earth, for thousands of years till we got sick of it
    other favorite middle-earth games: The One Ring RPG by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game by FFG; Hobbit/LotR Strategy Battle Game by GW

  9. #34
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    In England, the local trash/rubbish tips have strict rules on what you can throw away.

    You are limited to one 80 lt (21 US Gal) bag of DIY waste a week, eg tiles, doors, windows, flooring etc, which means in reality, one fence panel, or one door etc.

    I turn up with my car full of diy stuff hoping to throw it away without being seen

    A worker looks in my car and explains their policy to me

    I said words to the effect of

    "oh, I'm very sorry, thanks for explaining it to me, I didn't realise. What can I throw away now, I'll take the rest home with me"

    The end result was he let me throw away the lot and said how nice it was to have someone speak to him civilly, saying most people swore at him when told they couldn't throw their stuff away.

    The same when I have problems with call centres or with items from shops etc, I always start by asking how their day is, very jokingly saying I'm going to be one of those customers and stressing politely I know it's not their fault personally. It's amazing how much they will bend over to help when your polite.

    That said, I would be lying if I said on a very few occasions I have always remained polite, a few times over the years I have met very very arrogant staff who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near customers and felt like I was talking to a brick wall. Usually I simply politely give up and ring back etc. But very occasionally they have wound me up to snapping point, it doesn't achieve anything and isn't in any way clever, but everyone has their breaking point.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_toad View Post
    Go read Rob Pardo's defense of Jay Wilson and what ensued, that's why Kate Paiz is not likely to post here on something controversial. As much as I'd like her to and love to read the post.

    Imo HD expac is going to set some awesome records and be a great experience for the vast majority of players ... so that in a year or two, a certain very select few will again be able to ironically "predict" the doom of this game ... just like they did last year, and the year before ... and, oh wait, they were doing in 2008 .....

    Peace everyone, if it was up to me we'd all be able to play immersive middle-earth video games, or actually be in middle-earth, for thousands of years till we got sick of it
    Why does the senior producer of LOTRO posting a quarterly comms have to be controversial? Other MMOs do this and I don't see the proverbial assaults. If anything, regular communications on the future strategy of the game goes a long way to establishing a base for productive and ongoing dialogue. Why do I say this? Because managing dialogue with customers is what i do as part of my job. So it strikes me as odd when I don't see it happening here.

    Anyhow not quite sure how you you them move from that point into talking about doom & gloom and people complaining about future xpacs. Comes across as a bit random.

    Edit -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glumposneak View Post
    In England, the local trash/rubbish tips have strict rules on what you can throw away.

    You are limited to one 80 lt (21 US Gal) bag of DIY waste a week, eg tiles, doors, windows, flooring etc, which means in reality, one fence panel, or one door etc.
    Lol you should come along to the Saffron Walden recycling centre. I've put trailer-loads of rubbish through there recently and it's got to the point where I'm on good terms with the manager there
    <A sig goes here>

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Still 100% the wrong way to go about providing feedback.
    Equally, infracting, locking threads and saying 'stopped reading right there' might be the wrong way to go about responding to angered players.

  12. #37
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    kudos to the administrator too. (if thats the right title)

    the response time to some of these beyond crazy spam/troll is quite amazing.

    they probably get the most slack for there work but credit where credits due

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  13. #38
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_toad View Post
    Imo HD expac is going to set some awesome records...
    It already has in some respects. It's the first expansion that we've had since Shadows Of Angmar that required us to add servers to the beta world to match the number of players trying to log in and participate. It was the first beta since Shadows of Angmar that actually tripped our login queues on the beta world and forced us to raise the max player population.


    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    kudos to the administrator too. (if thats the right title)

    the response time to some of these beyond crazy spam/troll is quite amazing.
    That's usually me. Sorry you won't be getting your Irish passport or whatever it was.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    kudos to the administrator too. (if thats the right title)

    the response time to some of these beyond crazy spam/troll is quite amazing.

    they probably get the most slack for there work but credit where credits due

    Anyone seen my hip waders ??

  15. #40
    The other Record HD will break? Most Worst Reviews ever by PC Gaming Web Sites. We have already seen one and I am sure there will be a lot more to come.

  16. #41
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    Forums in general (not talking about LOTRO here) have one common feature in my opinion:

    - everyone who is not satisfied puts angry remarks about game on forum
    - everyone who is satisfied just plays the game and sees no need to spend the time on forum writing some positive messages

    It is often like having 1000 happy silent customers and 10 unhappy customers creating angry topics.

    It is VERY fortunate if forum moderator or developer or game owner do not spend 50% of his/her time trying to make those 10 unhappy customers happy, but spent 99% his/her time to keep 1000 silent customers happy.

    It's my opinion.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by evguenil View Post
    Forums in general (not talking about LOTRO here) have one common feature in my opinion:

    - everyone who is not satisfied puts angry remarks about game on forum
    - everyone who is satisfied just plays the game and sees no need to spend the time on forum writing some positive messages

    It is often like having 1000 happy silent customers and 10 unhappy customers creating angry topics.

    It is VERY fortunate if forum moderator or developer or game owner do not spend 50% of his/her time trying to make those 10 unhappy customers happy, but spent 99% his/her time to keep 1000 silent customers happy.

    It's my opinion.
    ... or one can be happy with the game overall but still have some concerns or criticisms to voice about specific aspects of said game. As much as some people here would like to make out, it's not all a "them & us" situation.


    Edit -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    The other Record HD will break? Most Worst Reviews ever by PC Gaming Web Sites. We have already seen one and I am sure there will be a lot more to come.
    I did a google search using "Helm's Deep Review" and straight away I was presented with lots of positive reviews of Helms Deep. Then I realised that they were all for Lego's Battle of Helm's Deep!!!

    Don't worry though - there were some lotro Helm's Deep reviews hidden in there. Not going to post what they said
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  18. #43
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    If you have a problem with someone's response to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Brodrick View Post
    I want to know why the definition of "hate and vitrol" changes depending on whether or not your post is Pro-Turbine(fanboi) or critical of Turbine(hater)

    The same criteria needs to be leveled evenly....
    Report it.

    If it's not bad enough to consider reporting, stop whining and move on.
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  19. #44
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    Out of curiousity

    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Equally, infracting, locking threads and saying 'stopped reading right there' might be the wrong way to go about responding to angered players.
    If you can't handle your anger (rhetorical you here) without becoming abusive, then why should you not receive an infraction?
    LilyRose of Gladden, Mistress of the Rangers of the West Kinship. Come check out our kin at rangerswest.guildlaunch.com.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bel-Astarte View Post
    Report it.

    If it's not bad enough to consider reporting, stop whining and move on.
    Probably the irony of your post was lost on you. Made me chuckle.
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  21. #46
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    Actually not ironic at all

    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post
    Probably the irony of your post was lost on you. Made me chuckle.
    Unless you are suggesting my post was filled with hatred and vitriol?
    LilyRose of Gladden, Mistress of the Rangers of the West Kinship. Come check out our kin at rangerswest.guildlaunch.com.

  22. #47
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brodrick View Post
    I want to know why the definition of "hate and vitrol" changes depending on whether or not your post is Pro-Turbine(fanboi) or critical of Turbine(hater)

    The same criteria needs to be leveled evenly....
    It doesn't. Much like any person you ask in jail, you'll always hear those who break the rules claim they did nothing or other people should be gotten X or Y as well (even there there is no way for them to know who did or did not get infracted as we don't discuss who got what infraction publicly).

    What I can say is there are those who swear up and down they've been banned, who aren't. In fact they don't even have a single warning much less an infraction.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    That's usually me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Brodrick View Post
    Anyone seen my hip waders ??
    take my wet suit, I won't be needing it. I'll be going head first butt naked. much easier to wash.

    I know people won't like seeing my bare flesh but if they join in we can make a laugh of it - thats how the best memories are made.
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremi View Post
    Maybe.

    That would probably depend on who is receiving the brunt of said rant's vitriol. Some people are better than others at dealing with harsh criticisms. Though seeing as you probably know the LOTRO developers on a personal basis... where as I do not, you are probably in a better position to judge the more effective way to provide feedback with them.

    But I would council against dismissing feedback just because they are harshly delivered. It is more often than not probably just frustration and disappointment that is to blame rather hate.
    No maybe, people who can't act civilized and engage in civilized discourse should not only be ignored entirely, but they should also be excised from society so we don't have to suffer their monkey poo flinging antics. If people can't act civilized despite disappointment and frustration, they need not participate at all, and that society, especially on the internet, has been so permissive and apologetic about such animal behavior just makes it worse. Mental illness is the only excuse for acting like an animal, and while I have great empathy and a desire for the mentally ill to get the help and treatment they need, I don't want their deranged ranting driving policy, even for a video game.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Equally, infracting, locking threads and saying 'stopped reading right there' might be the wrong way to go about responding to angered players.
    This I will agree with, outright bans would be much better.

 

 
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