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  1. #26
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    I'm going to have to go against everyone and say that I'm going to actually try the new system before making a judgement.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I'm going to have to go against everyone and say that I'm going to actually try the new system before making a judgement.
    Same. And from what I have seen so far I like what they have done for my LM. Time will tell I guess - but I certainly don't feel like protesting.
    The Balrog lives!! Oh, and give MECCG a try.

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000002be0/01008/signature.png]Eladrath[/charsig]

  3. #28
    this is the most important thing that has ever happened

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I'm going to have to go against everyone and say that I'm going to actually try the new system before making a judgement.
    Not everyone, believe me. Actually not all of the people dislike the changes, most didn't say a thing about it actually. it's just that the people who don't like it are very very loud.
    It will pass, people will continue to complain and eventually go back and actually do some playing - or switch to another game.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    It was done in DDO, another turbine product. In game protests are great for unity within the player base, you'd actually be helping turbine by creating more community. Im not suggesting it wouldn't be noted or even considered. I am suggesting that the ultimate leverage in this relationship (producer/consumer) is the act of consumption. They may take note, may take the suggestion to heart but what are you really asking for here? What are your demands? Class trait changes? A lot of time and effort went into these, turbine has heard loud and clear that a lot of us don't want it. What I realized a little over a year ago is, it dosent matter what I think or want. Like you, I'm renting content to play someone elses game, it isn't mine its theirs. Now of course I want to be in ME, and they want me to pay to be there and so the dance ensues. The key here is, are the class changes enough to merit for you (and anyone else) to decide that you no longer want to play the game they created? Im not there yet, I was after ROI and the ridiculous impact it had on the moors. Unsubbed and played another game for some time, kept my toons here and decided to divest personally and enjoy the parts of the game I liked. Essentially, turbine killed my passion for their game. I consume less, but I am still here. In the end we both won and we both lost. It would appear youre on a similar path, good luck but I would leave you with one piece of advice. The most precious commodity in life is time, the more you waste the less time you have to do the things you enjoy and or identify more things you enjoy.
    I think the quick change of heart on DDO not too long ago was due to the sheer amount of cancelled subs, the TR changes they had in the beginning was the first time since Guild Wars 2 where my outright reaction was, where is the cancel button it's time ta go, and it didn't seem like i was the only one.
    Conversely i nearly stopped all Moors playing here after the Potions were allowed there, but i never got even close to quitting the whole game or VIP over it.
    I guess it largely depends what is important to you.

    Anyways uh point being, i agree the best chance to get what you want is to show the company just how much money they lose by going through with the changes.
    Last edited by Thorwyn99; Nov 12 2013 at 03:58 AM.
    Nothing here matters.

  6. #31
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    As for the idea, I'll sit with ya Fitty but if it's a stock you need to get some bands playing!

    Seriously though it's too late in the development cycle to get the class changes changed in a major way, financial protest or sit in protest, for better or worse Turbine and we are stuck with them for now.
    (I'm still indifferent to slightly optimistic to them mostly)
    Nothing here matters.

  7. #32
    Wasn't sure if this was a troll post at first, you're seriously suggesting a protest one week before launch date just because you don't like change?

    By the way: vocal minority

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I'm going to have to go against everyone and say that I'm going to actually try the new system before making a judgement.
    Wise words... and I am doing the same. What goes into Beta is not the same thing that comes out of Beta. What comes out of Beta is not the same thing that goes into Live.
    Roses are red, Polar bears are white, if you meet one at night you'll get quite a fright.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarooOstrich View Post
    Soz Fitty, only way they would take heed is by them taking a knock financially.

    Even then, I cannot see these changes being reversed, they are too far down this path.

    I imagine they would much rather shut up shop than revert back... :/

    Nice gesture however mate.

    Only reasonable course of action protest wise IS voting with your wallet.
    Yep. Money is the only thing that counts. Stopping spending cash is the only effective action you can take if you don't like these changes because they are coming whether we like them or not.

    I don't so I'm very clear - I am not spending another dime in this game. My pay-game is something else now. It's been an eye-opener being forced to check out other, newer games. LOTRO-LITE is my occasional ftp game and I have tons of TP to see me through to the end if I choose.

    Anyway - you know Turbine - in a year they'll be acting as if HD was the work of malicious hackers and they'll be tearing everything down again.

  10. #35
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    Yeah Fitty sorry mate, while I agree with your sentiment i think this may be a washout, I know all my mates in beta have already deleted lotro and we wont be reinstalling for a protest I am afraid( I will be there in spirit though) I would assume we are not alone in that either. If you do go ahead with this I wish you all the best, you more than most have done a great deal to try and avoid the following few months of chaos and heartache( which I also suspect will be reversed in someway before too long).

    Anyway all the best once more in whatever you choose to do.

    PS,
    wear your VM badge with pride

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    Hehe... I don't want to be accused of wishing for an asteroid!
    I know the changes are here...

    But...

    It wouldn't be the first time a gaming company said "woops!".
    The faster we get a "woops" the better IMO.

    When I first of these class changes I was close to ragequit.

    I mean why introduce trait trees just as most MMOs out there are admitting that trait trees are too restrictive and a thing of the past and are moving to a more freeform trait system similar to the current model?

    It makes no sense.

    Then I got in to Beta and had a look and more importantly a read around. And was still very sceptical, but was no longer at the ragequit point.

    My big beef here is that Turbine are selling trait trees to us by saying we are getting more choice - we aren't. We are getting around half he choice we currently get. What we are getting is a system that not only allows us to easily experiment with a larger selection of choices from a smaller overall range, but a system that actively incentivises us to do so.

    On Live I play, mainly, a MoNF LM. He's had the same trait set since the end of Moria, I love him to bits and its great fun playing him.

    In HD I am reasonably happy that my MoNF LM will be just as awesome; but I'm also looking at a CC build to experiment with so I can add another "bow to my quiver"; if that goes OK I am sure I'll be buying a 3rd Trait Set so I can experiment even further.

    On top of that, a protest on the 18th is rather pointless. Most players will still be figuring out how to do what the want to do, and playing with different builds. If 4 weeks down the line players still can't get close to an approximation of something they are happy to run with then that is the time for a protest. Bear in mind that I am certain that there will be a significant period of data analysis and tweaking from Turbine, and it is probably fair to say that the HD changes won't be fully bedded in until the New Year.

    The more I learn about HD the more I am inclined to give Turbine the benefit of the doubt until late Jan early Feb to see if they can get this to work how they, and we, want it to.

    Because despite being ready to ragequit a month or two ago I am now of the belief that the class changes could be a very good thing for the long term prospects of the game.

    My major concern now is not about the Class Changes but whether or not Turbine can deliver of the ideological changes to content that must inevitably follow on the heels of these class changes.

    There is no more room for "jack of all trades" builds, and so we can no longer be expected to run through "jack of all trades" content.

    All The Best

  12. #37
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    Well there doesn't seem to be any interest in this...
    Any financial impact from Helm's Deep will have a delayed effect (I believe) and I was hoping for something that would result in major changes starting to come in the next region update rather than the next expansion = sooner is better IMO.

    I'll follow the same pattern as I usually do with an expansion = rush to 95 on my Champ and gather mats to feed my other level 85's and crafting alts and then start them through Helm's Deep as well.
    Difference this time will be no money going Me --> Turbine until my characters get the attention they need and deserve.

    Edit: Thanks for all the reasonable and thoughtful replies folks!
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    I did read somewhere that something similar was done in another MMO but I don't know if it had any impact or not or if it was effective in getting their message heard.

    The problem with strictly financial protest (I will not be spending any more money until things change) is it can take months for the bean counters to recognize any problems = particularly with Pre-purchases. (like mine)

    EvE Online had protests in game. Statue in front of the major trade hub was shot at by protesters. Shooting at the statue gets the attention of the devs in some manner. It was over the price of an item that was offered in the newly implemented rmt store (among other things I believe). I was playing at the time, but didn't participate as I wouldn't have bought anything out of their store and didn't care they were selling it.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    Well there doesn't seem to be any interest in this...
    Any financial impact from Helm's Deep will have a delayed effect (I believe) and I was hoping for something that would result in major changes starting to come in the next region update rather than the next expansion = sooner is better IMO.

    I'll follow the same pattern as I usually do with an expansion = rush to 95 on my Champ and gather mats to feed my other level 85's and crafting alts and then start them through Helm's Deep as well.
    Difference this time will be no money going Me --> Turbine until my characters get the attention they need and deserve.
    If the financial impact is severe enough the changes will come earlier than the next expansion, or Lotro will close anyways :P. The question is if it will be or if there will be any, i find that impossible to tell to be honest.
    Nothing here matters.

  15. #40
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    ./Signed


    NOT.

    New system is exceptional. Made me play again.


    I was so sure LOTRO is dead, but this restored my hope. Love you devs again! If Champ becomes Overpowered again in the moors I promise I am going to spent loads of TP..

    Just of you.

    Not troll.

    Srs.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I'm going to have to go against everyone and say that I'm going to actually try the new system before making a judgement.
    I think this is what people should be doing and advicing, not trying to rally people to do a sit-in and potentially just make player pre-judge a system they might otherwise like.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    Looking for practical ideas that could be used for a player protest of Helm's Deep expansion class trait changes.
    How about urinating against the wind?

    If you complain and protest but keep being in-game regardless, that will amount to exactly that. That and reaffirming the adagio that those who complain don't leave.

    I apologize for my bluntness, but that is how it is.

    I advice you to look ahead. In the near future, after 18th of November, we all know there'll be another round of class changes adjustments and finetuning. There's only so much feedback that a series of Beta's can generate. The Live version will have it's own feedback.

    That is the time and opportunity to bring your own constructive feedback to the table. Keyword is to remain constructive. For that will make it land in fertile soil among the devs.

    Anyway, me writing all that constructive stuff down is likely as much urinating in the wind as you protesting. So we might as well agree to disagree and wish eachother happy gaming in LOTRO.

  18. #43
    A protest? Sure... have at it if it makes you feels better. It will almost certainly have no impact on the development of the game.

    I may try it at some point I guess, when I grow weary of what I am currently playing. But I have, for the most part, moved on already. Other games, other things to do. Why invest the time in something you don' t enjoy? Try it (maybe you have already in beta). If it ain't fun for you, play something else. Simple as that.
    [COLOR="#00FFFF"]Being a lifer is like living in a famous California Hotel [/COLOR]

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    I believe it was SWG over the NGE...That was a long time ago.
    In a galaxy far, far away???



    Sorry...couldn't resist

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironcrown View Post
    In a galaxy far, far away???



    Sorry...couldn't resist
    +1

    I believe that SWG players who disliked the CU and NGE were labeled a vocal minority as well, but the game never recovered from those changes. Anyways, I did not participate in Beta and I am not likely to have a strong reaction to the class changes being a solo quester, but the reaction has to be concerning for Turbine. TBH hobbit presents and the like have already left a sour taste in many player's mouths. I believe I've only logged in three or four times since they were introduced, but I'm planning on starting a new character from scratch after the 18th. I guess I'll find out soon enough if all of the uproar is warranted.
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  21. #46
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    Ok i personally never played SWG but from what i gather in the end it was a niche game with quite it's share of problems, would it have really survived or even thrived if it wasn't for the NGE ?
    (Genuine question since the NGE is used quite often for alot of things)
    Nothing here matters.

  22. #47
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    No protest will work with out a united majority. Something that seems imposable now a days.

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorwyn99 View Post
    Ok i personally never played SWG but from what i gather in the end it was a niche game with quite it's share of problems, would it have really survived or even thrived if it wasn't for the NGE ?
    (Genuine question since the NGE is used quite often for alot of things)
    Well, ten years on, there is an active emulator project of the pre-NGE game.

    Another note: UO, the only other true sand box like game, is still running 16 years after launch.

    Would it ever have hit the numbers Lucas wanted? Probably not, but survive, it would have.
    [COLOR="#00FFFF"]Being a lifer is like living in a famous California Hotel [/COLOR]

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorwyn99 View Post
    Ok i personally never played SWG but from what i gather in the end it was a niche game with quite it's share of problems, would it have really survived or even thrived if it wasn't for the NGE ?
    (Genuine question since the NGE is used quite often for alot of things)
    Here's a quote from an SOE director about the change and the resulting backlash:

    "It was a stunning lesson in how not to do things," she continued. "It was too much change. It was brought in all at once. Even after the event there was an idea that it would blow over, but it didn't. There was so much anger. You cannot hide from these events." To this day SOE is "still getting hate mail for the NGE update in Star Wars: Galaxies."
    http://www.strategyinformer.com/news...ies-nge-update

    SWG wasn't a behemoth, but it had a steady and dedicated base of 200,000 - 300,000 subscribers pre NGE. Many of those players left when the NGE hit. Did that kill the game? No, they brought in enough new subs to continue supporting the game for several more years, but it is the prime example of a company completely disrespecting their long-time players. From what I've heard I don't think the upcoming class revamp is on par with the dramatic changes that the NGE introduced, but some of the reactions are in the same vein.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    brilliant analogy. I've deleted almost 5 posts trying to explain it as brilliantly as you have

    a song popped up as well on my way home. if you name it without google you'll win a cookie.

    "eye ball deep in muddy water.
    ...
    don't go tossin' your stones around.
    ...
    kangaroo done hung the juror with the innocent."

    I find it very selfish fitty is trying to add weight to his own opinion of the class revamps. from where I'm say it is "brat spitting his dummy out". not everyone is totally happy with the revamp but we don't go knowing making bias polls or trying to rally players under a banner and just dividing the community into clique groups.

    no fitty you havn't tried it. you've tried beta. you've probably deluded yourself to hate this system conditionally in defiance by now and will just be an unbiased as your probably making people.
    Well Bo in BETA you were a constructive voice in favor of the Trees but you seem to have lost yourself lately.
    There was a thread posted here (which I can't find now) that included this video and informed us this bug has existed a long time and has been reported many times.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6LPP...layer_embedded

    In that thread you repeatedly defended the Devs for something which is so obviously FUBAR. Your defense arguments were lacking in objective critical thought IMO.
    I haven't changed my position on the Trees and your use of "his own opinion" and "clique groups" is just another way of saying "vocal minority" yet again. Your argument on this is old and stale and as above lacks objective critical thought IMO.

    You are persistent in your admiration of the Trees and I will remain persistent in my resistance to them.

    Edit: The first page and a half of this thread started so well... People didn't agree with me but offered polite constructive opinions without being abusive or personal... so much for longevity and yet another locked thread in the making.
    Last edited by FittyBolger; Nov 12 2013 at 10:15 AM.
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    [color=limegreen][b]Wulfgrim Ghastban, Hrothwine and Galdrefyst of Rohan - Peckish of the Shire -- Riddermark[/b][/color]
    “I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend” JRRT

 

 
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