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  1. #1
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    Vocal-Minority-Stock... A sit-in protest of the Helm's Deep class changes.

    Looking for practical ideas that could be used for a player protest of Helm's Deep expansion class trait changes.

    My idea: I'm thinking about a protest taking the form of creating a character on Landroval and holding a sit in on Weathertop to emulate Weatherstock = Vocal-Minority-Stock.

    Would involve those interested in protesting sending messages on GLFF on their home servers and perhaps involving interested kinnies to participate and spread the word.

    Would require:
    1) Protesters create a character on Landroval (if they don't have one already) and travel to Weathertop for a "sit in".
    2) Forming a kinship on Landroval called "Vocal Minority" and getting protesters to join up.
    3) Hopefully people would just join the kinship and stay logged on for whatever time they can to demonstrate their opposition. (I don't really know how it would work... just throwing out the idea)
    4) Protest starting on November 18th with launch day.

    What will happen at Vocal-Minority-Stock? Nothing... just sitting there.
    Objective? Just to let Turbine know that the radical class changes are not wanted and to consider alternatives such as have been suggested in BETA.

    Any better ideas? Suggestions? Anything?
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    [color=limegreen][b]Wulfgrim Ghastban, Hrothwine and Galdrefyst of Rohan - Peckish of the Shire -- Riddermark[/b][/color]
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    Any better ideas?
    Don't purchase HD and send a letter to customer service explaining that you didn't because you don't like the class changes. Short of creating solidarity with other like minded players, your idea is largely folly. If you truly want to affect change your going to have to use your ultimate power, your consumption.


  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Don't purchase HD and send a letter to customer service explaining that you didn't because you don't like the class changes. Short of creating solidarity with other like minded players, your idea is largely folly. If you truly want to affect change your going to have to use your ultimate power, your consumption.
    I will not argue that it may be folly.
    I did read somewhere that something similar was done in another MMO but I don't know if it had any impact or not or if it was effective in getting their message heard.

    The problem with strictly financial protest (I will not be spending any more money until things change) is it can take months for the bean counters to recognize any problems = particularly with Pre-purchases. (like mine)
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    I will not argue that it may be folly.
    I did read somewhere that something similar was done in another MMO but I don't know if it had any impact or not or if it was effective in getting their message heard.

    The problem with strictly financial protest (I will not be spending any more money until things change) is it can take months for the bean counters to recognize any problems = particularly with Pre-purchases. (like mine)
    It was done in DDO, another turbine product. In game protests are great for unity within the player base, you'd actually be helping turbine by creating more community. Im not suggesting it wouldn't be noted or even considered. I am suggesting that the ultimate leverage in this relationship (producer/consumer) is the act of consumption. They may take note, may take the suggestion to heart but what are you really asking for here? What are your demands? Class trait changes? A lot of time and effort went into these, turbine has heard loud and clear that a lot of us don't want it. What I realized a little over a year ago is, it dosent matter what I think or want. Like you, I'm renting content to play someone elses game, it isn't mine its theirs. Now of course I want to be in ME, and they want me to pay to be there and so the dance ensues. The key here is, are the class changes enough to merit for you (and anyone else) to decide that you no longer want to play the game they created? Im not there yet, I was after ROI and the ridiculous impact it had on the moors. Unsubbed and played another game for some time, kept my toons here and decided to divest personally and enjoy the parts of the game I liked. Essentially, turbine killed my passion for their game. I consume less, but I am still here. In the end we both won and we both lost. It would appear youre on a similar path, good luck but I would leave you with one piece of advice. The most precious commodity in life is time, the more you waste the less time you have to do the things you enjoy and or identify more things you enjoy.


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    It was done in DDO, another turbine product. In game protests are great for unity within the player base, you'd actually be helping turbine by creating more community. Im not suggesting it wouldn't be noted or even considered. I am suggesting that the ultimate leverage in this relationship (producer/consumer) is the act of consumption. They may take note, may take the suggestion to heart but what are you really asking for here? What are your demands? Class trait changes? A lot of time and effort went into these, turbine has heard loud and clear that a lot of us don't want it. What I realized a little over a year ago is, it dosent matter what I think or want. Like you, I'm renting content to play someone elses game, it isn't mine its theirs. Now of course I want to be in ME, and they want me to pay to be there and so the dance ensues. The key here is, are the class changes enough to merit for you (and anyone else) to decide that you no longer want to play the game they created? Im not there yet, I was after ROI and the ridiculous impact it had on the moors. Unsubbed and played another game for some time, kept my toons here and decided to divest personally and enjoy the parts of the game I liked. Essentially, turbine killed my passion for their game. I consume less, but I am still here. In the end we both won and we both lost. It would appear youre on a similar path, good luck but I would leave you with one piece of advice. The most precious commodity in life is time, the more you waste the less time you have to do the things you enjoy and or identify more things you enjoy.
    Thank you for the reasonable post Thorgrum.

    I have no intention of leaving Middle Earth either. I will not spend money here until things change though.
    I have seen many posts where players have expressed their intention to leave though and that is sad indeed and not good for LOTRO either.
    If it were to create a greater sense of community that would strengthen LOTRO I would be all for that as well as I love the lands of Tolkien and don't want to see them weaken or die.

    It is my belief (and hope I might add) that these Class Trait changes will be rolled back eventually and I would just like to see that occur sooner rather than later.
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    [color=limegreen][b]Wulfgrim Ghastban, Hrothwine and Galdrefyst of Rohan - Peckish of the Shire -- Riddermark[/b][/color]
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  6. #6
    I've never understood why people complain about changes when something hasn't made it out of Beta yet. I've been in a few betas where people weren't happy with what they saw then once it was on live they realized some of the changes they wanted were made.

    In other words, wait until it goes live. Then throw your temper tantrums.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    It was done in DDO, another turbine product. In game protests are great for unity within the player base, you'd actually be helping turbine by creating more community. Im not suggesting it wouldn't be noted or even considered. I am suggesting that the ultimate leverage in this relationship (producer/consumer) is the act of consumption. They may take note, may take the suggestion to heart but what are you really asking for here? What are your demands? Class trait changes? A lot of time and effort went into these, turbine has heard loud and clear that a lot of us don't want it. What I realized a little over a year ago is, it dosent matter what I think or want. Like you, I'm renting content to play someone elses game, it isn't mine its theirs. Now of course I want to be in ME, and they want me to pay to be there and so the dance ensues. The key here is, are the class changes enough to merit for you (and anyone else) to decide that you no longer want to play the game they created? Im not there yet, I was after ROI and the ridiculous impact it had on the moors. Unsubbed and played another game for some time, kept my toons here and decided to divest personally and enjoy the parts of the game I liked. Essentially, turbine killed my passion for their game. I consume less, but I am still here. In the end we both won and we both lost. It would appear youre on a similar path, good luck but I would leave you with one piece of advice. The most precious commodity in life is time, the more you waste the less time you have to do the things you enjoy and or identify more things you enjoy.
    I think the quick change of heart on DDO not too long ago was due to the sheer amount of cancelled subs, the TR changes they had in the beginning was the first time since Guild Wars 2 where my outright reaction was, where is the cancel button it's time ta go, and it didn't seem like i was the only one.
    Conversely i nearly stopped all Moors playing here after the Potions were allowed there, but i never got even close to quitting the whole game or VIP over it.
    I guess it largely depends what is important to you.

    Anyways uh point being, i agree the best chance to get what you want is to show the company just how much money they lose by going through with the changes.
    Last edited by Thorwyn99; Nov 12 2013 at 03:58 AM.
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  8. #8
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    As for the idea, I'll sit with ya Fitty but if it's a stock you need to get some bands playing!

    Seriously though it's too late in the development cycle to get the class changes changed in a major way, financial protest or sit in protest, for better or worse Turbine and we are stuck with them for now.
    (I'm still indifferent to slightly optimistic to them mostly)
    Nothing here matters.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    I did read somewhere that something similar was done in another MMO but I don't know if it had any impact or not or if it was effective in getting their message heard.
    I believe it was SWG over the NGE. It resulted in no changes being made to game. The only reaction from Sony Online was to break up sit in with Game Masters because it was degrading the performance of the server that the protest was on. That was a long time ago. Maybe somebody has a better memory than I do.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    I believe it was SWG over the NGE. It resulted in no changes being made to game. The only reaction from Sony Online was to break up sit in with Game Masters because it was degrading the performance of the server that the protest was on. That was a long time ago. Maybe somebody has a better memory than I do.

    It was also done in Ultima Online in I think.....1998, a year before I played. Not sure of the outcome. I just remember reading about it in PC Gamer Magazine.
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  11. #11
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    Soz Fitty, only way they would take heed is by them taking a knock financially.

    Even then, I cannot see these changes being reversed, they are too far down this path.

    I imagine they would much rather shut up shop than revert back... :/

    Nice gesture however mate.

    Only reasonable course of action protest wise IS voting with your wallet.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    I believe it was SWG over the NGE...That was a long time ago.
    In a galaxy far, far away???



    Sorry...couldn't resist

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironcrown View Post
    In a galaxy far, far away???



    Sorry...couldn't resist
    +1

    I believe that SWG players who disliked the CU and NGE were labeled a vocal minority as well, but the game never recovered from those changes. Anyways, I did not participate in Beta and I am not likely to have a strong reaction to the class changes being a solo quester, but the reaction has to be concerning for Turbine. TBH hobbit presents and the like have already left a sour taste in many player's mouths. I believe I've only logged in three or four times since they were introduced, but I'm planning on starting a new character from scratch after the 18th. I guess I'll find out soon enough if all of the uproar is warranted.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    I did read somewhere that something similar was done in another MMO but I don't know if it had any impact or not or if it was effective in getting their message heard.

    The problem with strictly financial protest (I will not be spending any more money until things change) is it can take months for the bean counters to recognize any problems = particularly with Pre-purchases. (like mine)

    EvE Online had protests in game. Statue in front of the major trade hub was shot at by protesters. Shooting at the statue gets the attention of the devs in some manner. It was over the price of an item that was offered in the newly implemented rmt store (among other things I believe). I was playing at the time, but didn't participate as I wouldn't have bought anything out of their store and didn't care they were selling it.

  15. #15
    I suggest that you try to think positively about the changes. Think of it as getting an all new game to play. Think of it as clearing the cobwebs out of a six year old class system. Think of it as getting to respec your class traits without going to a bard (something I've always wanted). Think of it as a new challenge, having to decide which of your favorite skills you get to bring into a fight.

    Barring an asteroid striking New England this week, class changes are coming. It's up to you to emotionally prepare for them. I guarantee that if you approach this update with an open mind, you'll find that there's a lot there to enjoy.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiedman View Post
    I Barring an asteroid striking New England this week, class changes are coming. It's up to you to emotionally prepare for them. I guarantee that if you approach this update with an open mind, you'll find that there's a lot there to enjoy.
    Hehe... I don't want to be accused of wishing for an asteroid!
    I know the changes are here...

    But...

    It wouldn't be the first time a gaming company said "woops!".
    The faster we get a "woops" the better IMO.
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    [color=limegreen][b]Wulfgrim Ghastban, Hrothwine and Galdrefyst of Rohan - Peckish of the Shire -- Riddermark[/b][/color]
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  17. #17
    I suggest making chars on Landroval and on Monday at 8PM EST, gathering in the really-up-high tavern in the 21st hall (you can get there by drinking from the moria keg), and jumping down to their deaths from it.


    Then rinse and repeat.

  18. #18
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    What about the people who like the changes?
    Considering the time and money Turbine invested I don't think it will change a thing.
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  19. #19
    If you're naming a kin the vocal minority, that doesn't really incentivise the organisation you're protesting at to change anything for a "vocal minority" when they have a silent majority who have already spent their money on the things you profess not to want. Secondly, if you choose to continue to play a game, having already stated that you don't care for the changes it brings, you're undermining your own position. The last time people were dissatisfied with a proposed change was the lack of incentives to buy the Rohan expansion. As a result, plenty of people people did not pre-order. This lead to Turbine acknowledging their awareness of the situation and altering pre-order incentives to be more in line with customer expectations.

    The bottom line is, if you're not happy about the way the game is going, voting with your wallet is far more likely to encourage change than sitting on top of a fictitious hill in the middle of nowhere in a computer generated landscape.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abersoch_EU View Post
    If you're naming a kin the vocal minority, that doesn't really incentivise the organisation you're protesting at to change anything for a "vocal minority" when they have a silent majority who have already spent their money on the things you profess not to want. Secondly, if you choose to continue to play a game, having already stated that you don't care for the changes it brings, you're undermining your own position. The last time people were dissatisfied with a proposed change was the lack of incentives to buy the Rohan expansion. As a result, plenty of people people did not pre-order. This lead to Turbine acknowledging their awareness of the situation and altering pre-order incentives to be more in line with customer expectations.

    The bottom line is, if you're not happy about the way the game is going, voting with your wallet is far more likely to encourage change than sitting on top of a fictitious hill in the middle of nowhere in a computer generated landscape.
    Well met Abersoch!

    The name "Vocal Minority" has it's roots in the BETA testing of Helm's Deep.
    A number of us chose to take label that we felt was rather dismissive and wear it instead as a badge of honor.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    Hehe... I don't want to be accused of wishing for an asteroid!
    I know the changes are here...

    But...

    It wouldn't be the first time a gaming company said "woops!".
    The faster we get a "woops" the better IMO.

    When I first of these class changes I was close to ragequit.

    I mean why introduce trait trees just as most MMOs out there are admitting that trait trees are too restrictive and a thing of the past and are moving to a more freeform trait system similar to the current model?

    It makes no sense.

    Then I got in to Beta and had a look and more importantly a read around. And was still very sceptical, but was no longer at the ragequit point.

    My big beef here is that Turbine are selling trait trees to us by saying we are getting more choice - we aren't. We are getting around half he choice we currently get. What we are getting is a system that not only allows us to easily experiment with a larger selection of choices from a smaller overall range, but a system that actively incentivises us to do so.

    On Live I play, mainly, a MoNF LM. He's had the same trait set since the end of Moria, I love him to bits and its great fun playing him.

    In HD I am reasonably happy that my MoNF LM will be just as awesome; but I'm also looking at a CC build to experiment with so I can add another "bow to my quiver"; if that goes OK I am sure I'll be buying a 3rd Trait Set so I can experiment even further.

    On top of that, a protest on the 18th is rather pointless. Most players will still be figuring out how to do what the want to do, and playing with different builds. If 4 weeks down the line players still can't get close to an approximation of something they are happy to run with then that is the time for a protest. Bear in mind that I am certain that there will be a significant period of data analysis and tweaking from Turbine, and it is probably fair to say that the HD changes won't be fully bedded in until the New Year.

    The more I learn about HD the more I am inclined to give Turbine the benefit of the doubt until late Jan early Feb to see if they can get this to work how they, and we, want it to.

    Because despite being ready to ragequit a month or two ago I am now of the belief that the class changes could be a very good thing for the long term prospects of the game.

    My major concern now is not about the Class Changes but whether or not Turbine can deliver of the ideological changes to content that must inevitably follow on the heels of these class changes.

    There is no more room for "jack of all trades" builds, and so we can no longer be expected to run through "jack of all trades" content.

    All The Best

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    Looking for practical ideas that could be used for a player protest of Helm's Deep expansion class trait changes.
    How about urinating against the wind?

    If you complain and protest but keep being in-game regardless, that will amount to exactly that. That and reaffirming the adagio that those who complain don't leave.

    I apologize for my bluntness, but that is how it is.

    I advice you to look ahead. In the near future, after 18th of November, we all know there'll be another round of class changes adjustments and finetuning. There's only so much feedback that a series of Beta's can generate. The Live version will have it's own feedback.

    That is the time and opportunity to bring your own constructive feedback to the table. Keyword is to remain constructive. For that will make it land in fertile soil among the devs.

    Anyway, me writing all that constructive stuff down is likely as much urinating in the wind as you protesting. So we might as well agree to disagree and wish eachother happy gaming in LOTRO.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    brilliant analogy. I've deleted almost 5 posts trying to explain it as brilliantly as you have

    a song popped up as well on my way home. if you name it without google you'll win a cookie.

    "eye ball deep in muddy water.
    ...
    don't go tossin' your stones around.
    ...
    kangaroo done hung the juror with the innocent."

    I find it very selfish fitty is trying to add weight to his own opinion of the class revamps. from where I'm say it is "brat spitting his dummy out". not everyone is totally happy with the revamp but we don't go knowing making bias polls or trying to rally players under a banner and just dividing the community into clique groups.

    no fitty you havn't tried it. you've tried beta. you've probably deluded yourself to hate this system conditionally in defiance by now and will just be an unbiased as your probably making people.
    Well Bo in BETA you were a constructive voice in favor of the Trees but you seem to have lost yourself lately.
    There was a thread posted here (which I can't find now) that included this video and informed us this bug has existed a long time and has been reported many times.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6LPP...layer_embedded

    In that thread you repeatedly defended the Devs for something which is so obviously FUBAR. Your defense arguments were lacking in objective critical thought IMO.
    I haven't changed my position on the Trees and your use of "his own opinion" and "clique groups" is just another way of saying "vocal minority" yet again. Your argument on this is old and stale and as above lacks objective critical thought IMO.

    You are persistent in your admiration of the Trees and I will remain persistent in my resistance to them.

    Edit: The first page and a half of this thread started so well... People didn't agree with me but offered polite constructive opinions without being abusive or personal... so much for longevity and yet another locked thread in the making.
    Last edited by FittyBolger; Nov 12 2013 at 10:15 AM.
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    [color=limegreen][b]Wulfgrim Ghastban, Hrothwine and Galdrefyst of Rohan - Peckish of the Shire -- Riddermark[/b][/color]
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    Edit: The first page and a half of this thread started so well... People didn't agree with me but offered polite constructive opinions without being abusive or personal... so much for longevity and yet another locked thread in the making.
    The thread is probably gonna get locked anyway regardless of other posters replies given the subject matter. This is a waste of time. For Turbine to even take notice, you'd have to have the majority player base do this on all servers plus stop spending money & the ones who could cancel there subs. I do not see that happening. You can beat this to death all ya want but the changes are coming.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosey21 View Post
    The thread is probably gonna get locked anyway regardless of other posters replies given the subject matter. This is a waste of time. For Turbine to even take notice, you'd have to have the majority player base do this on all servers plus stop spending money & the ones who could cancel there subs. I do not see that happening. You can beat this to death all ya want but the changes are coming.
    Hehe... Those of us who have been fighting against the Tree system as implemented are quite used to others declaring us "The voice of one crying in the wilderness".
    We are very much aware the Trees are coming. We also see that the Trees could be made better or even excellent with some changes.
    Some changes have already been made and perhaps the opposition played some role in gaining these changes.
    Maintaining vocal opposition may be futile but it also might keep on the heat for further change... I don't claim to know... but I do intend to keep trying.
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    [color=limegreen][b]Wulfgrim Ghastban, Hrothwine and Galdrefyst of Rohan - Peckish of the Shire -- Riddermark[/b][/color]
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