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  1. #1
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    Helm's Deep, the newest EoC?

    A year or so ago JaGeX, the makers of RuneScape, released an update that completely overhauled the combat system changing the way they game played. It was called EoC, short for "Evolution of Combat". I'm not here to argue whether it was good or bad, but they lost a lot of players (from 100,000 online at peak times to only 40,000) in the time following it's release, with the numbers still slowly declining. The one thing JaGeX did that I currently see Turbine doing now is claim that these changes are necessary for the future.

    JaGeX and turbine are both old companies with young content developers (by young, I mean their time working for said companies and/or being a developer) wanting to inject their fresh ideas in to the game. That's not necessarily a bad thing, yet they don't always have ideas other people think are great or the experience to seamlessly integrate the content in to the game, which is what I am seeing here. If this was the route LoTRO was going to take, it should have done it long ago in it's infancy, not now when it's combat system is pretty well established. I do understand an MMO evolves over time but there's also a point when it's reached it's pinnacle and further changes only become detrimental to the game, and so far based upon what people are saying, the class changes are detrimental.

    I myself have no opinion of Helm's Deep as I have not actually tried the beta, but the amount of negativity towards it does not look promising at all. There's the possibility that I may like the changes, but that lacks any relevancy when a large chunk of the playerbase does not like it. A game that loses even 15% of its players in a short period causes detrimental effects to the quality of future updates as evident in RuneScape.

    I really hate to compare MMOs and their developers, but I don't want to see something like the Evolution of Combat happen to LoTRO. Please tell me you know what you're doing, Turbine. Please tell me you won't make the same mistake JaGeX has made. If there's a way to integrate Helm's Deep without the class changes, please do so. There has to be another way to make combat feel fresh without changing everything.



    Listen to the naysayers Turbine. Even if they don't make up the majority of the playerbase, they still affect the majority of your playerbase.

  2. #2
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    On an unrelated note, I'm unfamiliar with these forums so I'm not entirely sure this belongs here but it's the best place I could see putting it. If it doesn't belong here, feel free to take the necessary actions to get it in the right place.

  3. #3
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    Very well written post.
    Presented in a well articulated fashion, and most certainly brings up very valid concerns.

    Kudos sir.
    “A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship.”

  4. #4
    The common phrase used on the beta forums was 'NGE Moment', from the New Game Experience debacle with Star Wars Galaxies.

    But only time will tell. It is my belief that the drastic simplification of gameplay will lose existing customers.

    I have a lifetime account and plenty of TP so won't actually 'leave'. I can play forever and not spend another dime. But for the first time I haven't bought the expansion and neither have any of the other officers in my kinship. We just don't like what we see. Sure - we may log in occasionally but it's unlikely, as things stand, that we'll be source of income again. So for us this is 'an NGE moment' - the point where changes we did not ask for and do not like are imposed upon us.

    The problem for LOTRO in my opinion is that it is an old game. Strapping on an inflexible tree system just makes it worse. I know I am not alone in being a long time player who has been forced to check out other games and found how much MMO gaming has developed since LOTRO.

    It is just my opinion but I don't see this new, simplified (and for me, quite dull) gameplay stands much chance of winning new customers from other games so risking your bedrock customer base seems an unwise gamble.

    Just to be clear - I am not 'rage-quitting' - I'm just saying that these changes have made the game not much fun for me compared to competitors. I'll still be around but my wallet won't be. The question is - can the income from players like me be replaced with new players?

    That's not how it panned out for SWG or Runescape it seems. And I remember the big Eve developer climbdown over similar issues.

    But - some of us on beta raised these points time and again. Turbine see things differently and who knows - they may be right. I don't think so but they may be. Time and the quarterly accounts will show.

  5. #5
    Its also sometimes called the NGE of turbine ..for those that everplayed SWG..


    In the end what counts is how much they took careof the wishes of the current playerbase, they are mostly 30+ in age and lore and tolkien fans.


    The place where the current lotro is, attracts many old time mmo players, chances are high they will all return to the game for the expansion, question is how many of these old time mmo players will like what to them might feela s a dunbed down combat system? Do theey take the time to explore the depths of the new system, or will they act on a wimp..

  6. #6
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    Please try out the changes for yourself then make up your mind.

    Yes, there has been a fair bit of negativity, most of it coming from people outside of beta who don't know better. Yes, there was even some in beta as people had an initial knee-jerk reaction to the changes, but there have been many re-iterations and changes since then, and even the naysayers are coming round to it.

    It's certainly not as extremely different as people make it out to be. Yes, you might lose skill X because you want to trait in the red tree and its a bit deeper in blue than you can afford right now, but you get plenty of extra stuff in a trade off. If you absolutely love both Skill X and the red tree, then sure, you might be outraged at first. But once you play with it a bit more, you get used to it and adapt. If you love skill X why not try traiting mostly in the blue tree instead to get it and try out that style of play instead for example.

    Turbine have been pretty clear in the reasons for their decision to make the change, and it wasn't one taken lightly. I think that while people may disagree on how best to go about addressing the issues, it would be practically impossible to find someone who disagrees that those issues existed and needed to be addressed for the future.

    Personally, I'm amused by the amount of negativity directed at Helm's Deep prior to the NDA being dropped. I was expecting that to continue after the NDA dropped, but amazingly, its been pretty silent since the drop. Instead, people have been mostly curious and optimistic about the changes. Maybe a little sad too about the loss of the status quo, which they might enjoy which their class(es) on live. Will I miss the flavour of my Burglars on Live? Yes. But boy am I going to have fun playing not just one, but all three of the new burglar trees in Helm's Deep.
    Leader of The Rangers of Eriador

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Brya View Post
    Please try out the changes for yourself then make up your mind.

    Yes, there has been a fair bit of negativity, most of it coming from people outside of beta who don't know better. Yes, there was even some in beta as people had an initial knee-jerk reaction to the changes, but there have been many re-iterations and changes since then, and even the naysayers are coming round to it.
    Neither myself or anyone else I know in beta are 'coming around to it'.

    People need to try it for themselves and make up their minds before buying.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kongas View Post
    Neither myself or anyone else I know in beta are 'coming around to it'.
    I'm not saying EVERYONE is. But even those player created poll threads which only attract responses from the negative audience have shown a swing in opinion from severely negative to more positive opinions over the duration of beta.
    Leader of The Rangers of Eriador

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Brya View Post
    I'm not saying EVERYONE is. But even those player created poll threads which only attract responses from the negative audience have shown a swing in opinion from severely negative to more positive opinions over the duration of beta.
    Well, I think we all know why a progressive Silence fell over/on vocal critics.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brya View Post
    Please try out the changes for yourself then make up your mind.

    Yes, there has been a fair bit of negativity, most of it coming from people outside of beta who don't know better. Yes, there was even some in beta as people had an initial knee-jerk reaction to the changes, but there have been many re-iterations and changes since then, and even the naysayers are coming round to it.
    Some naysayers may have come around, but I suspect a great many more have simply given up and already quit, which is why you might see a reduced volume of complaints.


    Turbine have been pretty clear in the reasons for their decision to make the change, and it wasn't one taken lightly. I think that while people may disagree on how best to go about addressing the issues, it would be practically impossible to find someone who disagrees that those issues existed and needed to be addressed for the future.
    Well, I for one disagree that there were any serious problems with the classes/skills/traits that needed to be addressed.

  11. #11
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    Have come round to liking/accepting the changes??

    Not I sir.

    This is a deal breaker for me, and the impending changes just make my characters hollow shells of their formers selves.

    Perhaps Turbine will be proved right with this gamble in future, I don't know. For those that enjoy the game, I certainly hope so.
    What I do know is that the fun factor(for me) has seriously diminished, and what with a serious lack of decent endgame, I shall not be continuing down this road.

    I am saddened knowing my time in Middle Earth is ending soon.
    LOTRO was my first MMO, and I will always have fond memories, and boy have I made some great friends through the years.
    “A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship.”

  12. #12
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    I think the class changes are a great and are a great baseboard to move forward with into the future. I have to say it was a little clunky for me at first, but that's to be expected with such a major overhaul. Resistance to the changes at first is to be expected, but I think people will get used to them. I play a burglar and have been messing around with quiet knife in beta. I miss my tricks, but from what I can see Turbine has been true to their word when they said that it will MATTER how you advance your character. Once I ran a couple offensive skirmishes I had a new line up down and was easily able to see the potential of the line I was using. I play this game to experience and explore Middle earth and with the class changes I am still able to do that but now with more fluidity and better control.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0720600000012f90b/01005/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    Some naysayers may have come around, but I suspect a great many more have simply given up and already quit, which is why you might see a reduced volume of complaints.
    I'm not in Beta, so I can't say if the changes are good or bad. But I can say that in all the years I've been playing MMO's, this almost never happens. People might quit playing the game, but the naysayers seldom simply quit posting their complaints.

  14. #14
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    Very well put post.

    Kongas.. I share your boat, oars and all- I heartily agree with your posts, I really cannot think of a way to state how I feel that wouldn't repeat what you are saying

    Brya- I did try. I will say that initially- I was dumbfounded and so upset that I stopped ALL play and forum posting... for about a week. Perhaps that is another source of the current lack of response? I did come back, and I have tried to find a way to enjoy playing with this expansion, but it is just not fun for me; compared to my live playstyle.
    [B][COLOR=#6495ed]"You cannot pass," he said. "I am a[/COLOR] [COLOR=#00bfff]Servant of the Secret Fire[/COLOR][COLOR=#6495ed], wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. You cannot pass."[U][I]The Fellowship of the Ring II 5: "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm"[/I][/U][/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=#0000ff][/COLOR][COLOR=#5f1fff][B]Athene~Vilya~85 LM[/B][/COLOR] [URL="http://www.sotsfire.com/"][B][COLOR=#7b68ee]SOTSFire.com [/COLOR][/B][/URL]

  15. #15
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    My last opinion on the class changes was "barely adequate to keep me playing".

    I'll agree that my opinion on that poll showed a steady increase from my first response to my last.

    I strongly urge everyone to give the new changes some time, and decide for themselves.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brya View Post
    Please try out the changes for yourself then make up your mind.

    Yes, there has been a fair bit of negativity, most of it coming from people outside of beta
    I was in beta and i was and still i'm negative with this change but tell me who are outside beta who wrote on the closed beta forum?
    I can't imagine no one

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morons View Post
    I was in beta and i was and still i'm negative with this change but tell me who are outside beta who wrote on the closed beta forum?
    I can't imagine no one
    That's not what I said. I was referring to the negative threads outside of beta, on this very "Helm's Deep" forum where this thread is located.
    Leader of The Rangers of Eriador

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Brya View Post
    That's not what I said. I was referring to the negative threads outside of beta, on this very "Helm's Deep" forum where this thread is located.
    Well I can tell you I have been in beta since Beta 1, did not like the changes to my class than and still don't now. The Mini got the worst of it. Another thing is no RAIDS, BB is not a Raid. And if you look at the Poll the first one done had 290 post, the next 210, than 122 and now only 85. That tells me with those numbers going down like that, most people gave up and moved on.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brya View Post
    That's not what I said. I was referring to the negative threads outside of beta, on this very "Helm's Deep" forum where this thread is located.
    Eh. I haven't seen that, to be honest. Most of those threads are being posted by people from beta and generally reflect the opinions they expressed during beta.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brya View Post
    I'm not saying EVERYONE is. But even those player created poll threads which only attract responses from the negative audience have shown a swing in opinion from severely negative to more positive opinions over the duration of beta.
    If you look at those polls, plenty of people have said they like it.

    Vastly more have said they hate it.

    What I have noticed that as the various betas went on, less and less people bothered even responding to the polls.

    That could mean anything. People feel the poll was biased, people who hate it simply gave up being accused of troilling or spouting doom and gloom everytime they voiced their concerns, it could mean some people realise it's coming and they hate it so much, they simply cant be bothered anymore, who knows.

    Me personally I hate the changes, playing a Burg Gambler and not being able to use tricks and trick removals means playing my character feels like it's a completely new character, not the one I've grown to love over the years. Sure there's new skills, but thats not the point.

    That said, after the first few betas, I realised it was coming whether I wanted it or not, hence decided to make good of a bad deal. I want to carry on playing until the end, I am a lifetimer who since F2P has spent a small fortune on TP, I did pre-order this time as I wouldn't have enough TP on release to buy it and I could do with the extra quest slots. But it will be the last time I spend any money, no more TP purchases for me, I'll simply let them build up over the year for the next expansion.

    As I'm a Tolkien fan I want to carry on playing, I have decided on release, I will probably initially ditch my burg main and start a brand new class, I might in time start a new burg and just retire my current one as he is simply too different.

    Since I made the decision to pre-purchased, I tried to put a positive face on, and I gave the polls a better (although I didn't select like or love) rating.

    For me it's an accumulation of things over the past year or two, and this is just one thing too far. Bit like a drip drip effect where I'm gradually building up to explode and the class changes tipped me over the edge.

    It would be wrong of me to say I was happy before the class changes as I wasn't, but it was the class changes that tipped the scales.

    Now I will simply play Lotro as a very casual player and they will get no more money from me at all.

    I appreciate things need to change, I also appreciate many people including long term players may well love the changes.

    But for me, it feels like they are turning Lotro into something to appeal to the facebook crowd, people that come along for a few months, want no real challenge, spend a bit of money, then move onto the next thing.

    I could lie and say I think everythings great,. but I don't.

    I know regardless of how well the expansion is accepted, it wont affect Lotros immediate future,. but I do worry if enough people do stop supporting it financially, whether Turbine decide not to invest so much money on future expansions. Quite a fair amount of people in beta have said they have supported the game for numerous years, have lifetime accounts etc so wont leave, but are no longer going to be supporting it financially due to these changes (and many implied it was an accumulation of changes over the years)

    It could be that the vast majority of beta players who loved the game, didn't visit the forums, it could be those that voiced their dissatisfaction continually throughout beta end up being a rather small but vocal minority. What I do know is I have been in a few betas over the years for various things. There's always a few people that hate the changes, I have never ever seen so much dissatisfaction and complaints as I have in this current beta.

    If the people that hated the changes on beta compared to the people that loved it in beta transfer to live in similar numbers, I think Turbine might well be worried. But I dare say they have done some calculations, realise they may well loose x amount of players, but think the gamble should pay off as it will hopefully attract x amount of new players.

    Only time will tell if they got it right.

    I want to stress I really really hope that doesn't happen, but I personally cant give money to something that doesn't really appeal to me much anymore.

    One thing I don't like is when people who have played beta get accused of being trolls or doom and gloom merchants for them giving their opinions. They are entitled to their opinions just as the people who love it are entitled.

    And again many people do love it.

    If the complaints weren't discussed now, many non beta players would go into the expansion when it goes live, think what the hell and rage quit. As it is, they can now read from those that like it, also read from those that lothe it, and hopefully go into the game with a more balanced opinion.

    Or are SOME of those that like it and don't want the people who hate it to say so, under the impression the average lotro player is a sheep and if the people who hate it, cant voice their opinion and all that gets heard is positive things, the non beta lotro player will blindly follow?

    I've seen a few beta players voice their concerns only to be called trolls etc and that helps no one.

  21. #21
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    As I have posted in the beta forums. I've decided, based on my experience in beta, that my financial contribution to Turbine/WB, will come to an end. I have 12000+ TP and still will not spend any of them on ROR.
    I have too many problems with this new expansion. I still experience NTDLL memory crashes anywhere in Rohan. ( It took me three days to get from the river crossing to Edoras with the crashing). The Skill/Trait trees no one asked for. I have to relearn characters I have played for 6 years? I played them quite well now, thank you. I'm not starting a new one and leveling to 95.
    The beta forums are full of people very upset, many will not spend another cent on LOTRO. Many will leave and never come back. The beta forum upset is worse then when RK's and Wardens were introduced. Even Radiance was better (slightly) then this.
    When the people that prepaid for ROR get this, and the people that haven't paid and just love playing LOTRO get this pushed onto them, it's going to get ugly.
    I hope the spin doctors and lawyers are ready to go on Nov. 18.

  22. #22
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    I have nothing against Evolution, but a Revolution in game mechanics is not something to be done in an existing game with a certain playerbase.

    Sometimes I think if the playerbase has no problem with things as they are, changes to existing mechanisms should be kept to a minimum, and any major redesigns based on current design flaws should be kept in a locker for whenever a new game is being developed.
    So this kind of class tree would be nice in a "LotrO² - the return of turbine", along with a better graphics engine, which scales and performs better, allows better character models and clipping, placing of housing items etc. Since it would be a new game, acceptance would be way greater than being forced upon players.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brya View Post
    I'm not saying EVERYONE is. But even those player created poll threads which only attract responses from the negative audience have shown a swing in opinion from severely negative to more positive opinions over the duration of beta.
    Really? the first 2 polls had 75% of people leaving a negative response, the next 2 are sat at 65-70% if you think that represents a swing to positive opinion you are wrong, at best its a swing from a god awful opinion top a slightly less awful opinion.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    Really? the first 2 polls had 75% of people leaving a negative response, the next 2 are sat at 65-70% if you think that represents a swing to positive opinion you are wrong, at best its a swing from a god awful opinion top a slightly less awful opinion.
    It is important to note that these polls tell you how the people who happened to post feel about the xpack. It does not represent anything other than that. You can not infer anything about the player base at-large based on these polls. Some people seem to think that is the case but they are wrong and to post these poll results as evidence as to how the rest of us feel is irresponsible.

    I personaly like the changes and I am looking forward to HD. I will also add that this is not even close to an NGE situation. SWG was my favorite game before LOTRO and I played it from start to finish. HD would be more like the CU if anything.
    Jeffaman-Guarding Hobbit Jeffro-Burgling Hobbit Tinulaurien-Elf Lore Master Cephus-Champion of Men Lilnooblet-Hunting Hobbit Jeffrandir-Snooty Elf Rune-keeper- All of Brandywine
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffor View Post
    It is important to note that these polls tell you how the people who happened to post feel about the xpack. It does not represent anything other than that. You can not infer anything about the player base at-large based on these polls. Some people seem to think that is the case but they are wrong and to post these poll results as evidence as to how the rest of us feel is irresponsible.

    I personaly like the changes and I am looking forward to HD. I will also add that this is not even close to an NGE situation. SWG was my favorite game before LOTRO and I played it from start to finish. HD would be more like the CU if anything.
    You do realise my post was in response to Brya's post claiming that the polls were now showing positive results dont you?

    I never said once that the polls reflect anything other than the opinions of the people who posted in them.

    Your constant jumping up and down over the integrity of these polls every time they are mentioned shows nothing more than desperation on your part, no-one is listening to you about them, move on, people will make their own minds up about the class changes in the next two weeks, thats the only poll that matters and you have no influence over that whatsoever, what will be will be. Whether the expansion is a hit or a massive fail will be revealed soon enough.

 

 
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