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  1. #1
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    Vocal-Minority-Stock... A sit-in protest of the Helm's Deep class changes.

    Looking for practical ideas that could be used for a player protest of Helm's Deep expansion class trait changes.

    My idea: I'm thinking about a protest taking the form of creating a character on Landroval and holding a sit in on Weathertop to emulate Weatherstock = Vocal-Minority-Stock.

    Would involve those interested in protesting sending messages on GLFF on their home servers and perhaps involving interested kinnies to participate and spread the word.

    Would require:
    1) Protesters create a character on Landroval (if they don't have one already) and travel to Weathertop for a "sit in".
    2) Forming a kinship on Landroval called "Vocal Minority" and getting protesters to join up.
    3) Hopefully people would just join the kinship and stay logged on for whatever time they can to demonstrate their opposition. (I don't really know how it would work... just throwing out the idea)
    4) Protest starting on November 18th with launch day.

    What will happen at Vocal-Minority-Stock? Nothing... just sitting there.
    Objective? Just to let Turbine know that the radical class changes are not wanted and to consider alternatives such as have been suggested in BETA.

    Any better ideas? Suggestions? Anything?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    Any better ideas?
    Don't purchase HD and send a letter to customer service explaining that you didn't because you don't like the class changes. Short of creating solidarity with other like minded players, your idea is largely folly. If you truly want to affect change your going to have to use your ultimate power, your consumption.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Don't purchase HD and send a letter to customer service explaining that you didn't because you don't like the class changes. Short of creating solidarity with other like minded players, your idea is largely folly. If you truly want to affect change your going to have to use your ultimate power, your consumption.
    I will not argue that it may be folly.
    I did read somewhere that something similar was done in another MMO but I don't know if it had any impact or not or if it was effective in getting their message heard.

    The problem with strictly financial protest (I will not be spending any more money until things change) is it can take months for the bean counters to recognize any problems = particularly with Pre-purchases. (like mine)

  4. #4
    I suggest that you try to think positively about the changes. Think of it as getting an all new game to play. Think of it as clearing the cobwebs out of a six year old class system. Think of it as getting to respec your class traits without going to a bard (something I've always wanted). Think of it as a new challenge, having to decide which of your favorite skills you get to bring into a fight.

    Barring an asteroid striking New England this week, class changes are coming. It's up to you to emotionally prepare for them. I guarantee that if you approach this update with an open mind, you'll find that there's a lot there to enjoy.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiedman View Post
    I Barring an asteroid striking New England this week, class changes are coming. It's up to you to emotionally prepare for them. I guarantee that if you approach this update with an open mind, you'll find that there's a lot there to enjoy.
    Hehe... I don't want to be accused of wishing for an asteroid!
    I know the changes are here...

    But...

    It wouldn't be the first time a gaming company said "woops!".
    The faster we get a "woops" the better IMO.

  6. #6
    I suggest making chars on Landroval and on Monday at 8PM EST, gathering in the really-up-high tavern in the 21st hall (you can get there by drinking from the moria keg), and jumping down to their deaths from it.


    Then rinse and repeat.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    I will not argue that it may be folly.
    I did read somewhere that something similar was done in another MMO but I don't know if it had any impact or not or if it was effective in getting their message heard.

    The problem with strictly financial protest (I will not be spending any more money until things change) is it can take months for the bean counters to recognize any problems = particularly with Pre-purchases. (like mine)
    It was done in DDO, another turbine product. In game protests are great for unity within the player base, you'd actually be helping turbine by creating more community. Im not suggesting it wouldn't be noted or even considered. I am suggesting that the ultimate leverage in this relationship (producer/consumer) is the act of consumption. They may take note, may take the suggestion to heart but what are you really asking for here? What are your demands? Class trait changes? A lot of time and effort went into these, turbine has heard loud and clear that a lot of us don't want it. What I realized a little over a year ago is, it dosent matter what I think or want. Like you, I'm renting content to play someone elses game, it isn't mine its theirs. Now of course I want to be in ME, and they want me to pay to be there and so the dance ensues. The key here is, are the class changes enough to merit for you (and anyone else) to decide that you no longer want to play the game they created? Im not there yet, I was after ROI and the ridiculous impact it had on the moors. Unsubbed and played another game for some time, kept my toons here and decided to divest personally and enjoy the parts of the game I liked. Essentially, turbine killed my passion for their game. I consume less, but I am still here. In the end we both won and we both lost. It would appear youre on a similar path, good luck but I would leave you with one piece of advice. The most precious commodity in life is time, the more you waste the less time you have to do the things you enjoy and or identify more things you enjoy.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    I did read somewhere that something similar was done in another MMO but I don't know if it had any impact or not or if it was effective in getting their message heard.
    I believe it was SWG over the NGE. It resulted in no changes being made to game. The only reaction from Sony Online was to break up sit in with Game Masters because it was degrading the performance of the server that the protest was on. That was a long time ago. Maybe somebody has a better memory than I do.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  9. #9
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    What about the people who like the changes?
    Considering the time and money Turbine invested I don't think it will change a thing.
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  10. #10
    If you're naming a kin the vocal minority, that doesn't really incentivise the organisation you're protesting at to change anything for a "vocal minority" when they have a silent majority who have already spent their money on the things you profess not to want. Secondly, if you choose to continue to play a game, having already stated that you don't care for the changes it brings, you're undermining your own position. The last time people were dissatisfied with a proposed change was the lack of incentives to buy the Rohan expansion. As a result, plenty of people people did not pre-order. This lead to Turbine acknowledging their awareness of the situation and altering pre-order incentives to be more in line with customer expectations.

    The bottom line is, if you're not happy about the way the game is going, voting with your wallet is far more likely to encourage change than sitting on top of a fictitious hill in the middle of nowhere in a computer generated landscape.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2521c0000000007fe/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    It was done in DDO, another turbine product. In game protests are great for unity within the player base, you'd actually be helping turbine by creating more community. Im not suggesting it wouldn't be noted or even considered. I am suggesting that the ultimate leverage in this relationship (producer/consumer) is the act of consumption. They may take note, may take the suggestion to heart but what are you really asking for here? What are your demands? Class trait changes? A lot of time and effort went into these, turbine has heard loud and clear that a lot of us don't want it. What I realized a little over a year ago is, it dosent matter what I think or want. Like you, I'm renting content to play someone elses game, it isn't mine its theirs. Now of course I want to be in ME, and they want me to pay to be there and so the dance ensues. The key here is, are the class changes enough to merit for you (and anyone else) to decide that you no longer want to play the game they created? Im not there yet, I was after ROI and the ridiculous impact it had on the moors. Unsubbed and played another game for some time, kept my toons here and decided to divest personally and enjoy the parts of the game I liked. Essentially, turbine killed my passion for their game. I consume less, but I am still here. In the end we both won and we both lost. It would appear youre on a similar path, good luck but I would leave you with one piece of advice. The most precious commodity in life is time, the more you waste the less time you have to do the things you enjoy and or identify more things you enjoy.
    Thank you for the reasonable post Thorgrum.

    I have no intention of leaving Middle Earth either. I will not spend money here until things change though.
    I have seen many posts where players have expressed their intention to leave though and that is sad indeed and not good for LOTRO either.
    If it were to create a greater sense of community that would strengthen LOTRO I would be all for that as well as I love the lands of Tolkien and don't want to see them weaken or die.

    It is my belief (and hope I might add) that these Class Trait changes will be rolled back eventually and I would just like to see that occur sooner rather than later.

  12. #12
    I've never understood why people complain about changes when something hasn't made it out of Beta yet. I've been in a few betas where people weren't happy with what they saw then once it was on live they realized some of the changes they wanted were made.

    In other words, wait until it goes live. Then throw your temper tantrums.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abersoch_EU View Post
    If you're naming a kin the vocal minority, that doesn't really incentivise the organisation you're protesting at to change anything for a "vocal minority" when they have a silent majority who have already spent their money on the things you profess not to want. Secondly, if you choose to continue to play a game, having already stated that you don't care for the changes it brings, you're undermining your own position. The last time people were dissatisfied with a proposed change was the lack of incentives to buy the Rohan expansion. As a result, plenty of people people did not pre-order. This lead to Turbine acknowledging their awareness of the situation and altering pre-order incentives to be more in line with customer expectations.

    The bottom line is, if you're not happy about the way the game is going, voting with your wallet is far more likely to encourage change than sitting on top of a fictitious hill in the middle of nowhere in a computer generated landscape.
    Well met Abersoch!

    The name "Vocal Minority" has it's roots in the BETA testing of Helm's Deep.
    A number of us chose to take label that we felt was rather dismissive and wear it instead as a badge of honor.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirkBadgewick View Post
    I've never understood why people complain about changes when something hasn't made it out of Beta yet. I've been in a few betas where people weren't happy with what they saw then once it was on live they realized some of the changes they wanted were made.

    In other words, wait until it goes live. Then throw your temper tantrums.
    These are massive changes Dirk and they will be rolled out when Helm's Deep goes live.

    Wait until you log on after the update and you will know what I mean = then you can decide for yourself if you think they are an improvement or not.

  15. #15
    I do not want to sound harsh but here are my 2 cents.

    Changes are made and will come, whether we like it or not. (I personally don't mind). Your virtual protest will have negligible effect, it might have a point if we had only one server, but asking people to roll to Landroval just to protest, well, is a waste of their time.

    Then, there are plenty of other things in life worth protesting or demonstrating than a computer game. And I am a gamer, with a deep investment in this game, but real life is by far the most important side of my life.

    Finally, do not hold your breath Turbine will roll back. They can tweak the system, but we are not getting back. After all these betas and stuff, it would be ridiculous and counterproductive.

    My advice: give the system a shot. If you do not like it, well, time for you to move. LOTRO is not the only MMO or game around. Plenty of other choices.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by uw1975 View Post
    I do not want to sound harsh but here are my 2 cents.

    Changes are made and will come, whether we like it or not. (I personally don't mind). Your virtual protest will have negligible effect, it might have a point if we had only one server, but asking people to roll to Landroval just to protest, well, is a waste of their time.

    Then, there are plenty of other things in life worth protesting or demonstrating than a computer game. And I am a gamer, with a deep investment in this game, but real life is by far the most important side of my life.

    Finally, do not hold your breath Turbine will roll back. They can tweak the system, but we are not getting back. After all these betas and stuff, it would be ridiculous and counterproductive.

    My advice: give the system a shot. If you do not like it, well, time for you to move. LOTRO is not the only MMO or game around. Plenty of other choices.
    Thank you uw1975.

    I can't go into specifics due to NDA but there were many useful, thoughtful and practical suggestions made during BETA that many felt would improve the current implementation of the Skill/Trait Tree system.
    As it currently exists it rips the soul out of my beloved Champion IMO and I believe many are in for a shock when the expansion goes live next week.

  17. #17
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    The NDA is lifted.
    Officer of Radix Lecti @ Laurelin (the only real taters)
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erebthoron View Post
    The NDA is lifted.
    Kinda... lifted Erebthoron.

    My understanding is that NDA is lifted as of BETA 5.
    Anything prior to BETA 5 is still under NDA so I wouldn't be able to discuss specifics before that.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erebthoron View Post
    The NDA is lifted.
    The NDA is lifted but you can't copy and paste from the Beta forums. That can get you banned from any future betas.
    Chromite (Hunter) - Grumbletocks (Guardian) on Landroval, Appendage (Hunter) on Brandywine

  20. #20
    "Look at this, boss! Logins are up! They're loving the class changes! Especially the role players!"

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    Thank you uw1975.

    I can't go into specifics due to NDA but there were many useful, thoughtful and practical suggestions made during BETA that many felt would improve the current implementation of the Skill/Trait Tree system.
    As it currently exists it rips the soul out of my beloved Champion IMO and I believe many are in for a shock when the expansion goes live next week.
    I too play a Champ and have a few friends in Beta. So yeah, I do not agree with a few changes. But I will give it a shot. If I do not like after a few months, well time for me to move on. No sweat, I will miss the friends and community, but hell at the end of the road LOTRO is a game and I'm not married to it for life. In four years and a half that I played the game, I have already taken a break for as long as 6 months due to a variety of factors. I do not remember those being the worst of my life.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw View Post
    The NDA is lifted but you can't copy and paste from the Beta forums. That can get you banned from any future betas.
    All true, and if you think what is being said about the current state of the class changes is bad, you should have seen them two months ago. The have been improved from that...a lot. When people got a look at the orginal versions, there was a major explosion in the beta forums. (Note that this doesn't mean that I *like* the current version, only that I *really* hated the original version.)

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    All true, and if you think what is being said about the current state of the class changes is bad, you should have seen them two months ago. The have been improved from that...a lot. When people got a look at the orginal versions, there was a major explosion in the beta forums. (Note that this doesn't mean that I *like* the current version, only that I *really* hated the original version.)
    I am pretty sure that the versions are still tweaked as we speak and will still be tweaked after 18 Nov. After all, such massive changes and their consequences could be fully gauged when everyone is starting to play with them. So sure, we should provide feedback even after the release, but the tree traits are here to stay.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    I believe it was SWG over the NGE. It resulted in no changes being made to game. The only reaction from Sony Online was to break up sit in with Game Masters because it was degrading the performance of the server that the protest was on. That was a long time ago. Maybe somebody has a better memory than I do.

    It was also done in Ultima Online in I think.....1998, a year before I played. Not sure of the outcome. I just remember reading about it in PC Gamer Magazine.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
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  25. #25
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    Soz Fitty, only way they would take heed is by them taking a knock financially.

    Even then, I cannot see these changes being reversed, they are too far down this path.

    I imagine they would much rather shut up shop than revert back... :/

    Nice gesture however mate.

    Only reasonable course of action protest wise IS voting with your wallet.

 

 
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