harder

[stormshadowking]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE HARDER NPCS!?!?!? its not fun when i can take down 5 npcs my level and used no survival cds. I dont care even if its more morale and damage even though in my opinion that would be a little boring even though it would help. The only time ive had a challenge really is group quests or when the npcs started healing. I think npcs need more like cc and heals and stuff to make fighting seem like its real and not clicking away at like one skill and winning vs Sauramons army! So please harder npcs. and the kill x amount or get x amount of stuff those quests are boring as well we need something new....anyway just a suggestion.

[Nymphonic]

I kinda have to agree with this. I'm a mediocre player and I blast through everything without even trying. My only character that dies is my lore master, and that's from when I stop thinking about what I'm doing because I'm so used to breeezing through everything.

[whheydt]

Difficulty of the game varies with class and player skill. Desire for difficulty varies among players. On the whole, I think you're swimming against the current. The gaming world no longer revolves around "hard core" gamers. If you want greater difficulty, play a squishy class in poor (or no) armor against higher level mobs.

[djheydt]

Difficulty of the game varies with class and player skill. Desire for difficulty varies among players. On the whole, I think you're swimming against the current. The gaming world no longer revolves around "hard core" gamers. If you want greater difficulty, play a squishy class in poor (or no) armor against higher level mobs.

Can I say it now? I haven't said it in weeks.

One man's "challenge" is another man's "bloody impossible."

[Tobias_R]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE HARDER NPCS!?!?!? its not fun when i can take down 5 npcs my level and used no survival cds. I dont care even if its more morale and damage even though in my opinion that would be a little boring even though it would help. The only time ive had a challenge really is group quests or when the npcs started healing. I think npcs need more like cc and heals and stuff to make fighting seem like its real and not clicking away at like one skill and winning vs Sauramons army! So please harder npcs. and the kill x amount or get x amount of stuff those quests are boring as well we need something new....anyway just a suggestion.

No, you can't...

Before this get's into another gear-discussion (and i need to type fast now because i only have seconds availible ...) here is the deal:

Loads of players (including me) would love the game to become more difficult 'in general'. This will not happen. And imho it is even a good thing it will not happen. I really hate that my champ can autoattack 5 mobs to death in wildermore (yes he can) but making the game more difficult 'in general' is not the solution (imho again of course). There are lots of players i have met in lotro who are wonderfull players and people i am glad i have met ( and had loads of fun with) who don't care about stats, gear, perfect LI's etc. I honestly believe Middle-Earth should be big enough so every player-type, player-skill etc can have the great experience everyone who Loves this game deserves. This WILL mean maximizers (although pretty casual) like me will think every normal quest, book, elite etc is a joke.

The problem is rather when there ONLY is content made for the players who are more of the explorer/tourist kind of people. Where is the dol-dinen, upper Anuminas or even LG in RoR, Wilder, HD? This bothers me. The story and everything surrounding it should probably be accesible without gear/skills at all, but maybe there should be room for side-areas where you need to gear up and play your class well to be able to survive. It is not about excluding players who don't like a challenge, it is more about including players who like a challenge. (Of course nothing should be gated behind an area like this...)

The upcomming class-changes might help a bit. It can not be WAI when casuals like me (matter of definition i know...) can solo 3-man instances at level 85. After some preliminary test in the beta it seems way harde to pull stunts like this, let's hope it stays that way. (Although the stat-bloat might proove me wrong)

Regards
/T

[podgie_bear]

Difficulty of the game varies with class and player skill. Desire for difficulty varies among players. On the whole, I think you're swimming against the current. The gaming world no longer revolves around "hard core" gamers. If you want greater difficulty, play a squishy class in poor (or no) armor against higher level mobs.

Or you can give "Vanguard: Saga of Heroes" a try as that game still caters to players who want a challenge and to earn things rather than have it all given to them on a plate. But be prepared to die....a lot, because it is still aimed at RPG players, rather than the Hello Kitty crowd!

[YamydeAragon]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE HARDER NPCS!?!?!? its not fun when i can take down 5 npcs my level and used no survival cds. I dont care even if its more morale and damage even though in my opinion that would be a little boring even though it would help. The only time ive had a challenge really is group quests or when the npcs started healing. I think npcs need more like cc and heals and stuff to make fighting seem like its real and not clicking away at like one skill and winning vs Sauramons army! So please harder npcs. and the kill x amount or get x amount of stuff those quests are boring as well we need something new....anyway just a suggestion.

I think that they are not talking about friendly NPCs but monsters...

[bohbashum]

Difficulty of the game varies with class and player skill. Desire for difficulty varies among players. On the whole, I think you're swimming against the current. The gaming world no longer revolves around "hard core" gamers.

it's called "balancing difficulty" for a reason.

lotro is to far in the easy side in all catagories. solo content is nice easy, no one minds that really. there should be optional quests or optional enemies or ... (do I really need to list out all the possiblities for challanges where people who don't want they can simple avoid?) ... but group content is ment to be harder, especially T2 and T2cm (which is the whole reason we have a tier system). raid content is ment to be even harder as that demographic like a good in-depth challange, T1 is made for those who don't (which is the whole reason we have a tier system).

it can't be one or the other. it has to be one or the other, hence the term "balancing difficulty"

so I'm going to be super serious and blunt here.
- do you think content is too hard?

it's a clear yes or no answer.

I await for you to shoot yourself in the foot or try and ignore the question (probably the latter).

If you want greater difficulty, play a squishy class in poor (or no) armor against higher level mobs.

yes, gimp yourself to make the game more balanced. thats what the best games are all about

this is just proof the game is too easy.

[Beleg]

Where is the dol-dinen, upper Anuminas or even LG in RoR, Wilder, HD?

I agree. They need to add *some* challenging areas and quests that are fun and rewarding. I have very fond memories of getting trough quests like Death From Below (easy on some classes, very hard on others). LLG was pretty well done. Possible to solo if you really wanted to; but made for small groups. Enough quests and deeds to be fun, but you could skip the whole zone if you wanted to.

[whheydt]

...because it is still aimed at RPG players, rather than the Hello Kitty crowd!

"Role Playing Game" does NOT equate to "Lethal FPS/DPS Race".

And--oh, yes--way to win friends and influence enemies.

[Geldeger]

As far as mastering the class, that's what pvp and group pve content should be for. It's hard to make everyone happy in solo content. One of the game target groups are Tolkien fans, including people with little to no gaming experience. If someone joins mainly for the game world and wants to explore, and there's a mob every 15 meters that's very tough and has cc, that person isn't going to stay for long. (although I suspect Tolkien himself would quit once he saw that weird LI system)

[podgie_bear]

"Role Playing Game" does NOT equate to "Lethal FPS/DPS Race".

And--oh, yes--way to win friends and influence enemies.

Hey, I pointed out that its an option that players looking for a more challenging game might like, but I felt it needed to be said that it is not for casual gamers who want an easy game. I aren't trying to win fiends and influence enemies, just supply information and since on this forum you can make enemies just by posting no matter what you say, why bother to dress things up? The simple fact is that when I want challenging gameplay I go to Vanguard, but when I am tired and want something easy to play with all the challenge of Hello Kitty, I come to LotRO! And I still spend a lot of time on LotRO, because I have loved this game for years, despite all they have done to dumb it down.

[Nymphonic]

Can I say it now? I haven't said it in weeks.

One man's "challenge" is another man's "bloody impossible."

Yes, but I'm one of those mediocre "bloody impossible" guys, and even I think the game has gotten too easy. When a bad player like me says it's too easy, than by George, it's too easy!

[bohbashum]

"Role Playing Game" does NOT equate to "Lethal FPS/DPS Race".

I'm sure no one is looking for the age old truly difficult games like battletoads or dr.jekyll and mr.hyde.

what I'm sure people are asking for is depth. but I'll leave all the game design discussion there.

when you can run out solo and not need to remove a corruption, move, intterupt, stun, or even care how much you pull, so much depth is lost. already on lotro every single solo fight can be completeled by mashing 1/2 skills at best. in fact, we've seen before a lore-master can auto-attack signitures to death. ignoring the additional discussion points there you've got clear cut evidence the game has little depth.

and thats ignorring group play which is has as much depth as Mario bros storyline.

so for a start, what in-combat "depth" does an mmo have?
- movement
- skill rotation

if you EVER don't need to move in a fight, the designers better have a damn good reason why! lotro has sucked royally at making solo content ever need this feature.

so almost all the in-combat depth for a solo player is in how they use there skills now. like I said before, what solo content can't be completed with just 1/2 skills? seriously, what in RoR can't I complete? I dare you to try and find me something. the fact we're even discussing this shows how sucky the depth is.

sorry, lotro's demographic is PC gamers. you can expect a PC gamer to be smart enough to buy a PC, able to turn on the PC, download and stay with lotro's many downloads and updates and then carry on playing for months to get up some levels. if at the end game solo content is this easy, why even play. the external reward from grinding (aka, I must grind for hours to unlock a thing, the grind isn't fun but the thing is) is what? something that makes the grind quicker? what an awful model of a game... the story is not that good to be a reward for the mindless grinds of mashing the same skills for months on end.

the fact you said before "If you want greater difficulty, play a squishy class in poor (or no) armor against higher level mobs." is like pissing on the very little stuff worth doing on this game. why even grind? why even play? thats the whole point of a reward system so you never ask those questions and just keep on playing for that next drip feed to an item/content/fun to make the grind slog worth it.

[Beleg]

so for a start, what in-combat "depth" does an mmo have?
- movement
- skill rotation

I've played a lot of other MMOs, and I think there are other aspects of combat (beyond or related to the two you mentioned) that can make it interesting.

Here are some examples. Sorry I don't recall which MMO(s) they are from (most recently I've played RIFT, GW2, Secret World, DDO, AoC, Firefall, EQ/2, Neverwinter, SWTOR, Path of Exile, Diablo 3, and WoW).

- "telegraphed" intentions: I think it's TSW which does this very well. If the mob is going to do a special attack, the ground is marked with an outline of where the attack will hit (could be a circle for a point-based AoE, or a rectangle for a charge-attack, or an arc for a frontal AoE, etc). As a player you can then attempt to dodge the attack before it goes off -- and you better, since those special attacks are quite powerful. You can avoid the attack with a double-tap to dodge/roll away; it's fun.

LotRO's marked areas are sort of like this, but not as exciting since you're not avoiding the attacks (just the after-effects). And of course most of the effects are so minor that you hardly need to avoid them anyway. Those nasty goblins running at you with a fire-pot should scare you, but most people just ignore them. The catapult effects in Battle for Erebor are pretty good, but even those only stun you for a bit. LotRO's induction animation is pretty good- you do often want to interrupt them.

- group/combo skills: I think it's GW2 which does this. Certain skills combine with other skills to produce some really cool effects. For example, if someone puts down a poison AoE, another player can the target the area with a fireball, which becomes a poison-fireball (for bonus damage). Most classes have a couple skills which they can combine (even solo), but it's a lot more fun when you have a group of players doing it.

LotRO of course has FMs (one of the more interesting/unique things in this game), but since they don't scale, most players don't even bother contributing to them anymore. Plus they also stop the flow of combat, which isn't really good. If they scaled the effects, and made them trigger instantly (as soon as the group completed the leader's selected FM), it would be a lot better and more fun.

- special effects for critical hits/kills: Age of Conan has what they call "fatalities". These are special slow-mo effects that happen (I think) when you crit-kill something. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc for some examples. Basically, you get pretty cool death effects (like decapitating the mob) every once in a while. I understand that's not everyone's cup of tea, and it might not fit LotRO, but it's pretty cool. LotR War in the North has it - when my ranger crit-killed a troll, he leaped on top of it, and stabbed both blades into its head - kind of like Legolas in the movies).

- skill rotation: involves more than just repeating a few sequences of skills. Wardens have a pretty complex play style. Not only do you have to know all the combinations to create the different gambits, but you have to know how they affect each other (in different stances), and how to use mastery (double-skill) sequences to build them faster. If you haven't played a warden, a quick google will show you a lot of complex charts players have developed to help them play.

- reactive skills: Some classes like Captains get on-defeat events, guardians get on-block skills, and burgs get a chain of skills which open when they crit. But overall, the mobs are so easy you can ignore most of this.

I'd love to know what percentage of players think LotRO is too easy (in general). My guess is that it would be pretty high.

But there's no question parts of the game are quite challenging. I still haven't done T2/cm on all the Erebor raids, for example.

[Nyrion]

Oh great, let's get in on this rodeo again.

For me personally, I wouldn't mind the game in general be a bit tougher. Specifically, I'd like mobs to do more than just autoattack you. Yeah, they occasionally hit you with a debuff, incredibly weak bleed or induct a heal. But none of those really impede your combat ability. I mean come on, some of the bleeds an 85 mob puts on you do <100 damage per tick! And the debuffs are more irritating than dangerous, particularly the slows given out by wolves and Wargs.

Unlike some others however, I don't believe the perceived easiness is down purely to the design of the content. I think it also comes down to the simple fact that the player has become exponentially more powerful as time has gone on, and increasingly out of balance with the content. People generally don't like to admit this though, since it may mean getting nerfed. In order to make the game more challenging, changing the content alone will not be enough. We will have to accept not being able to ignore or counter every single thing the game throws at you.

And just for the record, you can make an argument for finding LOTRO being too easy without insulting people who don't. Really guys, it's not that hard. And yet time and again, we get the same tired 'Go to Hello Kitty Online' rhetoric which does more to impede your own goal than it does support it. The sooner you learn some tact, the sooner the Devs may start heeding your opinion.

[bohbashum]

I've played a lot of other MMOs, and I think there are other aspects of combat (beyond or related to the two you mentioned) that can make it interesting.

for lotro solo questing it really does boil down to movement and skill rotation though. no matter how much you colour it up, thats it. movement in questing is just go here or go there, you very rarely NEED to move when in-combat. your rotation for all combat can be done with 1/2 skills being spammed.

heck, you auto-attack is exactly that. no skill, no gameplay.

the only time these qualities change is for mounted combat.

- "telegraphed" intentions:

you need to break this up into those used against the player and skills the player gets. there completely differant.

lodes of mmo's are making these a very clear mechanic of where to move and where not to move. I guess designers need to outline these things to players know exactly whats needed, it gives them a lot of scope in animations and FX to make them pretty instead of expressive of where the lines are.

when a player gets to use them it makes skills actually need you to aim and have skill not many mmo's have. tab and mash buttons isn't that skillful compared to actually need to aim skills. from aiming skills you get a whole new feild of balancing skills, for example timeing your projectiles to hit targets while there moving. there is a serious amount of added gameplay there we just don't see in more tradianal mmo's like lotro or WoW.

lotro's has very little need to actually aim. ok, you need to look at your target and some aoe skills do, but that is not the same as actually aiming.

I might budge on this but for context of this discussion on solo lotro questing you need no skill in aiming. the option to auto run to target is enough, need I say more?

- group/combo skills

this very easily fits into skill rotation. changing your rotations for group / situational play is big. in solo play you could just make a very simply macro mashing 1 skill and do everything.

- special effects for critical hits/kills

not really any gameplay added though :P just cinematic.

- skill rotation

no matter how much you colour it over it's still just skill rotation a macro could do.

"skill" is also weird. do you actually get more gameplay from more skills? no you don't. you can create just as much gameplay from a few skills as moba's prove outright. what really matters is what those skills are doing and how they interact and you can jazz it up. many mmo's actually suffer from "perfect rotations" where people do just macro a sequence together for the perfect peak play which can just horrible gameplay at the end of the day. you can get a lot of illusion of choice with to many skills and can be very hard for designers to balance.

- reactive skills

again. rotation.

[Jeremi]

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE HARDER NPCS!?!?!? its not fun when i can take down 5 npcs my level and used no survival cds. I dont care even if its more morale and damage even though in my opinion that would be a little boring even though it would help. The only time ive had a challenge really is group quests or when the npcs started healing. I think npcs need more like cc and heals and stuff to make fighting seem like its real and not clicking away at like one skill and winning vs Sauramons army! So please harder npcs. and the kill x amount or get x amount of stuff those quests are boring as well we need something new....anyway just a suggestion.

I've been complaining about this for months, possibly years. So good luck.

[djheydt]

Yes, but I'm one of those mediocre "bloody impossible" guys, and even I think the game has gotten too easy. When a bad player like me says it's too easy, than by George, it's too easy!

I wouldn't venture to say whether I'm a bad player or not. I do tend to play squishy
characters, as LMs and Minstrels. (I like healing.) Add to that, that I play
either solo or duo -- my kinship, started in SoA open beta, has attenuated over the
years -- and actions that would be too damn easy for, say, a level-capped Captain and
his full fellowship of level-capped kinsmen, are still likely to be bloody impossible for me.

Fortunately, I don't even *try* to attempt those actions. I reluctantly do skirmishes
from time to time to build up my characters' stupid Soldiers, because at one point or
another they've got to get through III.1.8. The mere mention of raids reminds me
of Sir Kenneth Clarke's summing up of the Carolingian age -- "Fighting, fighting, fighting."

If I can defeat the mobs at hand, without dying TOO often, I'm happy.

What particular parts of the game do you find too easy?

[Beleg]

again. rotation.

I don't really understand what you mean, but that's okay. I was simply trying to list a few of the features which make combat interesting to me.

Overall, I think LotRO does a pretty good job of making it interesting and fun. But I agree with many that it's too easy; the occasional challenge is certainly part of the fun.

So how could they improve it? My suggestions are:

- make it more challenging (at least in some quests/places/etc)
- make mob special attacks matter more
- telegraph mob intentions, and give us a decent way to avoid them (double-tab to roll/dodge works great)
- scale FMs, and make them trigger instantly when the selected one is completed
- add some rare special effects (like AoC's fatalities)
- add some skills which can be combined with other skills (especially other players' skills) to get bonus effects
- make sure all classes get some nice reactive skills

Personally, I don't care for skills that require targeting with the mouse - I play almost entirely with my G-510 keyboard. But that's just a personal preference; I know some people like them, and I could adapt to them if necessary.

[milimber]

whilst I accept there has to be a balance in the difficulty level to suit the needs of the casual f2p and hardcore raid player, at the very least the difficulty lvl at the start of Helms Deep should me a moderate challenge for an average player with full hytbold gear and maxed traits, virtues and class deeds.

[bohbashum]

I don't really understand what you mean, but that's okay. I was simply trying to list a few of the features which make combat interesting to me.

"skill rotation" just means any order you use your skills to maximize proficiency. it doesn't need to be a set sequence and it might update so regularly you'll never do a sequance twice in one day. "skill rotation" or just using skills at the right time (as any real "no skill" time isn't too efficient and just wasted gameplay time... kinda...).

pretty much anything to do with the skill bar and skills you can class as one core elemant of gameplay like movement. maybe "skill rotation" is a bad name.

the fact is those 2 HUGE elemants are so undemanding and void of any real engagement. movement? why move even move in combat with auto-run to target. skills? do you even need them and do you even need to think about it or just roll your face on any skills to win.

there is cirtainly a lot of scope for gameplay in just movement and skills, enough to base a whole genra on *cough cough*. the fact of the matter is content has become so easy BECAUSE these 2 gameplay elemants are deminished so much the "challange" is almost non exsistant.

So how could they improve it? My suggestions are:

- make it more challenging (at least in some quests/places/etc)
- make mob special attacks matter more
- telegraph mob intentions, and give us a decent way to avoid them (double-tab to roll/dodge works great)
- scale FMs, and make them trigger instantly when the selected one is completed
- add some rare special effects (like AoC's fatalities)
- add some skills which can be combined with other skills (especially other players' skills) to get bonus effects
- make sure all classes get some nice reactive skills

these are great suggestions for both solo and group play of the game. I really hope some designers are reading this...

additionally:
- corruption removal, a mechanic disappearing for some reason
- intterupts, everyone can do them now so why are we not made to?
- Crowd Control, I shouldn't have to explain but for the last 2 x-packs CC's viablity has almost been removed from group play
- Knock backs, it's weird but it is fun to fly though the air, SG used this so well back in SoM days.
- Definition between melee, ranged and tactical classes and the need for 1 of each.

it's pretty simple, players love more mechanics to play with and the last new one we had was bubbles (which was nice!). but so many other mechanics we love (that includes FM too) just seem to be shunned to the side.

[whheydt]

whilst I accept there has to be a balance in the difficulty level to suit the needs of the casual f2p and hardcore raid player, at the very least the difficulty lvl at the start of Helms Deep should me a moderate challenge for an average player with full hytbold gear and maxed traits, virtues and class deeds.

Therein lies the problem. Who, other than players who are into "mini-maxing" (or have played for a long time and/or have plenty of time on their hands) will have characteristics covering all of that? There is already an active thread in the Helm's Deep Public Forum on the subject of whether or not it's worth doing Hytbold at this point, with many people coming down on the "no" side. Anyone needing that advice *won't* have Hytbold armor when they start into Western Rohan. Likewise, there are probably a lot of players that haven't bothered to get their characters to 16 on all slotted virtues--and many of those won't have optimal virtues (assuming that there *is* a consensus on what those virtues are).

Turbine has changed their games considerably over the years, starting with AC1, then AC2 and now LotRO. AC1 had spell components, burden, consumable missiles (arrows, javelins) and death penalties. Except for the relatively minor, and possibly little used, throwing axes, LotRO has none of that. Turbine appears to be directing LotRO at "casual" gamers. The consequence of that decision (for good or ill) is that the game is, and will continue to be, "too easy" for experienced and/or dedicated gamers. This leads to the logical conclusion that if such an experienced/dedicated/skilled gamer wants the game to be harder, they have two fundamental chioces. They can either gimp themselves in LotRO or they can find a different game.

Note that I am *not* trying to push people away from LotRO. What I am trying to do is inject reality into the situation. Attempts to get Turbine to make LotRO harder are attempts to get Turbine to move in direction opposite to the way they've been going for years. This is not to say that I, necessarily, agree with the direction Turbine is going or the extent to which they are going in that direction but only that the direction can be observed.

What it comes down to is this: There is a sizable gap between the "average player" and the "average player spec'd according to your list". At best, Turbine would be spec'ing for the average level 85 player to be able to do the early HD content. I suspect that's quite a bit less capable than what you're calling for.

And, FYI, not only does my main meet your spec, he has a L85 2A bow as well.

[bohbashum]

Note that I am *not* trying to push people away from LotRO. What I am trying to do is inject reality into the situation. Attempts to get Turbine to make LotRO harder are attempts to get Turbine to move in direction opposite to the way they've been going for years. This is not to say that I, necessarily, agree with the direction Turbine is going or the extent to which they are going in that direction but only that the direction can be observed.

why are you being devils advocate here then?

what do YOU think. stop trying to be a sponsor for a second and give meaningful feedback.

like I stated before, it's called "balancing difficulty" for a reason. Probably no one wants battletoads difficulty but they probably don't want pokemon snap difficulty. 2 ends of the an extremely board spectrum and lotro is going towards "you can complete this with less effort it took to download it" mode.

"easy" doesn't make a succesful game, it never has and it never will so stop right there. what makes a good game is a good progression, approachable and a whole lot of depth that builds up and as little complexity as possible. no game developer, designer, marketing, producer, and so on will tell you that easy games make more money (and if they do they failed at there job). it's completely a lie that someone somewhere made up as an excuse to "why are games easy these days".

it's about getting that "balance" right in the context of your demographic. even babies games have depth in them. just looking at solo content along, do you honestly think it's balanced? do you really think after playing 85 levels people want 85 to 95 being just as easy, simple, and as little depth to challenge everything they have learned over the past 85 levels+ gametime?

[whheydt]

why are you being devils advocate here then?

Because I see a lot of unrealistic wishful thinking in the Forums.