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  1. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferathyr View Post
    other players could look at my character trying to get into an instance and automatically assume that I bought it.
    Is THIS really what you are afraid of? Someone will think you did not put the work into your character? What about people who leveled umpteen alts and just want a bit of a break? If you are more afraid of what people think of you in an online game......I'll leave it at that....
    That starts I guess with people respecting others points of view. I did try and put it tongue-in-cheek and only semi-serious but I guess that's lost on you.- A forum poster

  2. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by Felajarko View Post
    Is THIS really what you are afraid of? Someone will think you did not put the work into your character? What about people who leveled umpteen alts and just want a bit of a break? If you are more afraid of what people think of you in an online game......I'll leave it at that....
    If they want a bit of a break they can actually concentrate on one character for a while instead of removing challenge from my game play. If they have already done everything on multiple characters then I feel sorry for them because either they have too much time on their hands or if they can only play 2 hours a week like many who are for this pay-to-level system claim but still have maxed out multiple characters then it just proves my point that the game is far too easy.

    "I'll leave it at that"? cheap passive/aggressive standard forum tactic, goes along with the usual INB4, "I'll just leave this here" and "Just saying". Words with no substance.
    It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.

    Voltaire

  3. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felajarko View Post
    So how does this effect you? You don't have to buy anything from the store. You can decon your LIs without removing the relics. As easy as it is to get LIs you can decon them all day and build up your private stash of relics.

    So, how does people buying things from the store effect you? You have said how you don't like the store and don't think people should buy from it. But how does it effect you personally? How does someone buying the Gift of the Valar effect you personally?
    How many more times do you need to have it spelled out for you?

    It affects me in various ways. Though the one we're currently discussing is how what you buy affects the game. Which then affects me (and everyone else). If you are willing to buy your way around grinds, they will sell you grind avoidance, and Turbine is then necessarily provided with incentive to create more of them, perpetuate the existing ones, and "reset" them more often than they otherwise would. There are likewise discouraged from revamping grindy and flawed systems. As I've said, they cancel the LI-revamp and then add on Starlit Crystals. Because people will buy them while yelling "don't tell me how to play my game!"

    If we wouldn't buy them, and we all agreed that we should play the game instead of buying our way out of playing it, no such perverse incentives would exist. And Turbine would instead generate its revenue by selling cosmetics, housing fluff (or upgrades), storage, etc.

    But you do, and they do. And thus, my (our) game is affected in all the ways I have mentioned in my last few posts (and much earlier in the thread). You can pretend such things don't happen. Or you can dismiss them as unimportant. But they do happen and they are important to me and others.

    It's sorta mind-boggling that you can still ask that question.

  4. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferathyr View Post
    If they want a bit of a break they can actually concentrate on one character for a while instead of removing challenge from my game play. If they have already done everything on multiple characters then I feel sorry for them because either they have too much time on their hands or if they can only play 2 hours a week like many who are for this pay-to-level system claim but still have maxed out multiple characters then it just proves my point that the game is far too easy.

    "I'll leave it at that"? cheap passive/aggressive standard forum tactic, goes along with the usual INB4, "I'll just leave this here" and "Just saying". Words with no substance.
    I never said the game was not easy. But when you want a break from your 95 maxed out character, having to regrind everything before Moria can become tedious. I am leveling my third warden and Celondim is getting to me. Bree will get to me. Ost Guruth and all of North Downs will get to me, for the umpteenth time. Instalevel to 50 is not that bad when its only half way to level cap. I still have all of Moria, Eregion and on to do. But to go thru the lower areas is more of a grind. I agree it can be a bad thing for new players who don't know there character's abilities yet. But for someone with characters across several servers of various levels, areas before Moria are a horrible grind.

    Cheap tactic or not, it begs the question, do you really care what other players think of you or that you wont be invited to a pug because others may THINK you insta leveled? It does have substance. Your argument was weaker than my 'cheap tactic'.
    That starts I guess with people respecting others points of view. I did try and put it tongue-in-cheek and only semi-serious but I guess that's lost on you.- A forum poster

  5. #530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    How many more times do you need to have it spelled out for you?

    It affects me in various ways. Though the one we're currently discussing is how what you buy affects the game. Which then affects me (and everyone else). If you are willing to buy your way around grinds, they will sell you grind avoidance, and Turbine is then necessarily provided with incentive to create more of them, perpetuate the existing ones, and "reset" them more often than they otherwise would. There are likewise discouraged from revamping grindy and flawed systems. As I've said, they cancel the LI-revamp and then add on Starlit Crystals. Because people will buy them while yelling "don't tell me how to play my game!"

    If we wouldn't buy them, and we all agreed that we should play the game instead of buying our way out of playing it, no such perverse incentives would exist. And Turbine would instead generate its revenue by selling cosmetics, housing fluff (or upgrades), storage, etc.

    But you do, and they do. And thus, my (our) game is affected in all the ways I have mentioned in my last few posts (and much earlier in the thread). You can pretend such things don't happen. Or you can dismiss them as unimportant. But they do happen and they are important to me and others.

    It's sorta mind-boggling that you can still ask that question.
    I'm sorry Hurin, but your argument just does not hold water for me. Turbine gives a lot of their cosmetics away as gifts in hobbit presents or such. And they seriously will not make enough off of them in the store. Conversely, someone instalevelling to 50 may be more interested in spending money in the game when they see what the game has to offer in the higher levels. Since you are talking somewhat hypothetically, so can I.

    And its mind boggling you can try to use the argument that Turbine might or might not do something. Base an argument off of fact, not what MIGHT happen.

    And in actuality, this whole argument is moot for right now. I believe the item is gone...for now. But like I posted before...WoW is looking into it and making it insta level to 90. How long before its a standard in all games?
    That starts I guess with people respecting others points of view. I did try and put it tongue-in-cheek and only semi-serious but I guess that's lost on you.- A forum poster

  6. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    One suspects that the easily monetized (and highly profitable) nature of the current LI system is the reason. If they were to make it less grindy, it would also generate less money. You can't sell grind avoidance where there is no grind. Much less where there is no equipment turnover or "resets" of that grind.

    But, hey! We got Starlit Crystals instead! Available for you convenience in the LotRO Store!
    I have nothing against the LOTRO store at all. I paid $15/month to WoW for 2+ years and didn't mind because I was having FUN. I have no problem with paying up to that much with Turbine. If I buy my TP in $60 packs (11500 TP) every 4 months, then I will have almost 3000 TP to spend every month to legitimately pay for whichever grind I choose to avoid. Presumably it will be the LI grind.

    And by "legitimately", I mean paying no more to Turbine to play this game as F2P than I would if I were using a subscription model. That's definitely an effective use of the store that's not pay-to-win.

  7. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferathyr View Post
    No, but when game mechanics are introduced that make levelling my character from 1-50 meaningless then I am going to come here and make my opinion clear.
    Gift of the Valar does not make your 1-50 meaningless unless you would have paid to auto-level your character. MMO players have been accomplishing the same thing for years by selling their accounts to other players. At least in this approach, Turbine developers are profiting from it.

  8. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    The grinds in the game have not remained static. While we did have Virtues in the game prior to the F2P model, the cap had also remained at 10 even as we all sat on totals in the 11-14 range (even after two expansions, Moria and Mirkwood).
    However we have many many more ways of getting virtues now. Back before Moria almost nobody got capped in their virtues unless they went out and did some serious grinding, including in instances that you could not solo. Today though it's relatively easy to get capped out even solo; more zones giving virtues, more useful virtues acquired just through questing or exploring, and you can solo all those old instances (having fun instead of grinding). Overall I think these are simpler to get now.

    On the other hand you do NOT need to max out your virtues. You will do very well in this game with virtues at 10, and you're not going to find yourself wiping groups that way, struggling to complete quests, etc. Virtues have ALWAYS been an extra thing for people who want just a little bit more for their character, and today with the uncapped stats the virtues aren't even as useful as they used to be before Moria.

    So less grind for virtues now. Unless you're one of those players who refused to play the game and power leveled to max, and then suddenly decide that you need to get all all of them to the cap as soon as possible, which would be an awful grind.

    Even if you don't believe me, and even if you do think this is a grind you can't place the blame on F2P or the store. The increase virtue caps were not added to promote the store, they were added because players kept asking for it (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...e-Cap-Increase).

    Then there's the Relic revamp, where we were told it would be "less of a grind" featuring fewer tiers and because of this, it's A-Okay for them to move in-game functionality (relic removal scrolls) into the Store (exclusively, for a time until complaints caused them to relent).
    This scroll is really the only thing so far that fits into the category, so I will partially agree with you. However you do not need the scrolls.

    And yes, it can be a grind, it is explicitly a grind, and it was explicitly a grind BEFORE free to play or the store. It's a typical MMO feature of adding special stuff that some players will keep grinding away at rather than logging off and putting subscription dollars elsewhere. People were furious when things needed re-grinding after Mirkwood (before F2P), even though most people could have predicted this would happen given the design. Iif you don't grind at it you can still do well though; I have tier 9s and 10s without grinding (unless you call deconning and reslotting as you find new LIs to be a grind). Not the best ones again, but so what.

    Again I don't see the store as the culprit here. If there were no store the system would still be very similar; except you'd use marks/medallions/shards probably to get a scroll instead of TP. What's driving this instead is the basic design of the legendary system (broken as it is), where every expansion you have to get new ones and the old stuff has to be devalued. But because there's a store item, some people point to it as the culprit.

    And, as yet another example, how do you know that Star-Lit Crystals (etc.) would have been added to the game (increasing the LI grind substantially) without the Store's influence?
    You can get them in the store? News to me. I thought there were just there to encourage people to grind away at the same old instances/skirmishes endlessly, same as how most MMOs seem to have something rare to keep the bored end game players something to reach for.

    But don't be surprised if work on revamping earlier zones is sharply curtailed now.
    If anything, driving sales to the store would imply they want to revamp more zones. Players today are skipping North Downs and heading to the super streamlined (and boring) revamped Evendim, and many are skipping Angmar altogether. Revamp those and there will be a lot of sales in the store for sure.

  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felajarko View Post
    And its mind boggling you can try to use the argument that Turbine might or might not do something. Base an argument off of fact, not what MIGHT happen.
    You can believe, if you want, that Turbine is 100.00% pure and resists these perverse incentives and conflicts of interest. But they necessarily exist under this business model (whereas the did not prior). if you sell grind avoidance, you are necessarily incentivized to create new ones and perpetuate old ones. . . and so on.

    That's just common sense. It's practically a tautology.

  10. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Even if you don't believe me, and even if you do think this is a grind you can't place the blame on F2P or the store. The increase virtue caps were not added to promote the store, they were added because players kept asking for it (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...e-Cap-Increase).
    And yet those requests were deemed not worthy of fulfilling until the Store Business Model came about. You can't merely assert that you know the Store wasn't a factor. You and I weren't there in the room through years when the requests were rejected, and then eventually accepted.

    And you didn't address the revamps/resets to Virtues, etc.

    Your counter-arguments usually just amount to how little these concerns affect your playstyle. While dismissing how it affects the playstyle of others (even while acknowledging the effect)

    This scroll is really the only thing so far that fits into the category, so I will partially agree with you. However you do not need the scrolls.
    Define "need?" I don't "need" anything in this game.

    Nevertheless, the ability to get your relics out of your items was seen as a necessary feature of the system. Because people would highly value the ones they attained. That feature was then moved to the store. 'Nuff said. Even if you want to "partially agree" only to say that you don't really care. The point is made.

    And yes, it can be a grind, it is explicitly a grind, and it was explicitly a grind BEFORE free to play or the store. It's a typical MMO feature of adding special stuff that some players will keep grinding away at rather than logging off and putting subscription dollars elsewhere. People were furious when things needed re-grinding after Mirkwood (before F2P), even though most people could have predicted this would happen given the design. Iif you don't grind at it you can still do well though; I have tier 9s and 10s without grinding (unless you call deconning and reslotting as you find new LIs to be a grind). Not the best ones again, but so what.

    Again I don't see the store as the culprit here. If there were no store the system would still be very similar; except you'd use marks/medallions/shards probably to get a scroll instead of TP. What's driving this instead is the basic design of the legendary system (broken as it is), where every expansion you have to get new ones and the old stuff has to be devalued. But because there's a store item, some people point to it as the culprit.
    The Store is not the reason all grinds are reset. I've never made that case and I've seldom if ever seen anyone else do so. That seems like a straw man. But it's necessarily true that selling grind avoidance provides incentive for creating, increasing, and perpetuating grinds. I lament the obvious existence of this incentive and point out only the few times we can reasonably assume that it has had an effect through circumstantial evidence. Neither of us are in the room when Turbine designs these systems and additions. So it's a bit silly for you to claim that a system would have been "very similar" without the influence of the Store. Yet it's merely a fact that the Store exerts pressure on the design, whether that pressure has an effect or not.

    You can get them in the store? News to me.
    I'm not sure if any further discussion between us is worthwhile. If you didn't know this, we're just playing two different games. They were put into the Store on the day Starlit Crystals became available in-game. Which, as usual, raises the question: Does the grind exist because compelling gameplay called for it? Or is it there because it represented another opportunity for increased revenue by subtly annoying the player into wanting to avoid yet another grind.

    If anything, driving sales to the store would imply they want to revamp more zones. Players today are skipping North Downs and heading to the super streamlined (and boring) revamped Evendim, and many are skipping Angmar altogether. Revamp those and there will be a lot of sales in the store for sure.
    Angmar was one of the first to be revamped. But I think you missed my point: If you provide the ability to skip all those zones altogether, there is less incentive to pay attention to those zones since players can now just skip them (for a price of course). I realize this last bit is a stretch. Especially with the item only being available for a limited time and for a very high price. But this portion of the slippery slope is already in view (the price could be lowered, and/or the offer could be made permanent). And not all slippery slope arguments are wrong by virtue of them being slippery slope arguments.
    Last edited by Hurin; Jan 08 2014 at 12:28 PM.

  11. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    You can believe, if you want, that Turbine is 100.00% pure and resists these perverse incentives and conflicts of interest. But they necessarily exist under this business model (whereas the did not prior). if you sell grind avoidance, you are necessarily incentivized to create new ones and perpetuate old ones. . . and so on.

    That's just common sense. It's practically a tautology.
    No one is pure, but games must evolve and look to those who pay the most money. Why you see it as a 'perverse' incentive I don't understand. I read your post a few times and I am reminded of a guy in a white pressed suit, standing in a pulpit preaching fire and brimstone. I'm waiting for you to yell "Buyers of the store! Repent!"

    Game companies will follow the money. Stop spending money while others are still spending money and you have lost your voice. People are willing to spend the money and its not only in this game. You can believe there was no money following in the 'good ole days', but there was, there is and there always will be. Its how companies remain companies and not bankrupt tax write-offs.

    THAT is just common sense.
    That starts I guess with people respecting others points of view. I did try and put it tongue-in-cheek and only semi-serious but I guess that's lost on you.- A forum poster

  12. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felajarko View Post
    No one is pure, but games must evolve and look to those who pay the most money. Why you see it as a 'perverse' incentive I don't understand.
    I think you do. But you'd rather engage in ad-hominem tactics (the preacher bit) than continue to address what I'm saying.

    It is perverse for a game designer to be under any pressure to add annoyance/grind to their game that would not otherwise be there if not for the business model encouraging players to buy their way around it. In that situation, every time you buy your way around the game's content, you're incentivizing the creation of more of the content you don't like. That. . . is. . . perverse.

    And, though I can't believe I still need to repeat this. . . I don't blame Turbine for accepting your money. They are satisfying a market for grind avoidance even as they are the ones who create the grinds (yikes). I do lament the fact that so many players refuse to see these realities, however, and even enthusiastically cheer as our plunge down the slippery slope has only accelerated. And, of course, anyone who points this out is told that they are merely "dictators" trying to control how you play "your game."

    Again, I think you see this. And at least you're now no longer trying to pretend these conflicts of interests are merely hypothetical. So, mission accomplished. Even though I think you're now so entrenched in your point of view that you'll never actually admit that such perverse incentives are actually a negative thing and ideally would not exist (or should at the very least be more conscientiously resisted by the playerbase).

    --H

  13. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    I think you do. But you'd rather engage in ad-hominem tactics (the preacher bit) than continue to address what I'm saying.

    It is perverse for a game designer to be under any pressure to add annoyance/grind to their game that would not otherwise be there if not for the business model encouraging players to buy their way around it. In that situation, every time you buy your way around the game's content, you're incentivizing the creation of more of the content you don't like. That. . . is. . . perverse.
    If it is perverse, then every game designer is guilty. Grinds are a part of every MMO. People want to get past the grind. The store is willing to provide that. I am willing to take it. My first three characters went thru the grind and now I look for ways around it. Chnage the background and I will change my style. Until then, I will bypass the grind where I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    And, though I can't believe I still need to repeat this. . . I don't blame Turbine for accepting your money. They are satisfying a market for grind avoidance even as they are the ones who create the grinds (yikes). I do lament the fact that so many players refuse to see these realities, however, and even enthusiastically cheer as our plunge down the slippery slope has only accelerated. And, of course, anyone who points this out is told that they are merely "dictators" trying to control how you play "your game."
    Not dictators, but we are wondering why you want to fight what an entire industry is doing. You are not going to control anything. But you want to view the whole thing as a catch 22. We want to bypass the grind the designers put in. So we buy what they put in to bypass it, causing them to make more causing us to buy things to bypass it. But there is a bit of a fallacy there. The grind was always there. It will always be there. In nearly every MMO. And it gets put into every xpac. The fact they have convenience items to bypass it is not so they can make more grinds to make more money.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Again, I think you see this. And at least you're now no longer trying to pretend these conflicts of interests are merely hypothetical. So, mission accomplished. Even though I think you're now so entrenched in your point of view that you'll never actually admit that such perverse incentives are actually a negative thing and ideally would not exist (or should at the very least be more conscientiously resisted by the playerbase).

    --H
    And you are so entrenched in your point of view. I'm not sure what mission you think you have accomplished, but if it helps you sleep at night, great. The 'Gift' does nothing to diminish playstyle. And other companies are looking at it, as I have triied to point out numerous times (See previous posts about WoW polling about a similar item). The store has expanded quite a bit, i will admit. But I don't see a problem with it. You can think that by withholding funds from the store you are making a voice. But in reality, you are hurting the game. Those are the ways the company needs to make funds. if WB was handing cash to Turbine hand over fist, the store would still be a background item. But now its a prime way to make cash to keep the game alive. I still think you are wrong that buying from the store hurts you in some mythical way. But if you want me to believe that, then you must accept that NOT buying from the store will kill the game in the long run. See the ridiculousness of the situation?
    That starts I guess with people respecting others points of view. I did try and put it tongue-in-cheek and only semi-serious but I guess that's lost on you.- A forum poster

  14. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felajarko View Post
    If it is perverse, then every game designer is guilty.
    Guilty of what? Providing something their players want to buy because their players don't stop to think that every time they do so, they are subsidizing and encouraging more of the very content they don't like and would prefer to avoid?

    That's not Turbine's fault. As I've made clear multiple times. They aren't "guilty" of anything.

    Not dictators, but we are wondering why you want to fight what an entire industry is doing. You are not going to control anything.
    Not trying to control anything. Just tired of hearing people say things that are patently false. That the Store has no effect unless you use it. And that their playstyle and use of the Store doesn't affect me. That's simply not the case. It's obviously not the case for reasons we've discussed here recently and others besides.

    And, regarding the fact that the entire industry has gone this way. . . did your mother never teach you that just because everyone's doing something, doesn't mean it's necessarily a good thing? Turbine's doing what it has to do to make its bosses and shareholders happy. I don't fault them. And though this may be tilting at windmills, what I'm saying remains nevertheless true, and thus worth saying especially in the face of those who say things that are in fact untrue (as described above).

    But you want to view the whole thing as a catch 22. We want to bypass the grind the designers put in. So we buy what they put in to bypass it, causing them to make more causing us to buy things to bypass it. But there is a bit of a fallacy there. The grind was always there.
    That's not a "fallacy". . . that's an irrelevant and only partially true fact. "Grinds" have always been there. But we have no idea what the grinds in various systems would look like today were it not for the Store. I've shown where the Store has likely had an effect in multiple places (it can never be proven by either of us). But, even if what you said was entirely true, it does not, in any way diminish what I'm saying: That the current business model introduces conflicts of interest and perverse incentives that did not used to be present.

    And you are so entrenched in your point of view. I'm not sure what mission you think you have accomplished, but if it helps you sleep at night, great. The 'Gift' does nothing to diminish playstyle. And other companies are looking at it, as I have triied to point out numerous times (See previous posts about WoW polling about a similar item). The store has expanded quite a bit, i will admit. But I don't see a problem with it. You can think that by withholding funds from the store you are making a voice. But in reality, you are hurting the game. Those are the ways the company needs to make funds. if WB was handing cash to Turbine hand over fist, the store would still be a background item. But now its a prime way to make cash to keep the game alive. I still think you are wrong that buying from the store hurts you in some mythical way. But if you want me to believe that, then you must accept that NOT buying from the store will kill the game in the long run. See the ridiculousness of the situation?
    As usual, the false choice: Turbine needs to offer exactly these things and do exactly what they are doing or the game will fail. I reject that false choice as being obviously untrue. They can emphasize other revenue streams. And they would, if their players would stop putting their hands over their ears and denying the inescapable effects of their purchasing decisions. . . and demand some integrity to the game. That's not going to happen anymore, sadly. It used to happen quite a bit more but gradually the folks screaming "How dare you tell me how to play my game. . . gimme!" drove those what would point such things out away.

    As I said, it's fully your game now. I play it now with a sense of resignation. But this point of view is still worth expressing. Especially those who hold it are routinely and disingenuously attacked via half-truths, myopic perspectives, and demagoguery ("rights" being trampled and other such ridiculousness).

    You guys are getting the game you want. Please just stop pretending that in doing so you haven't done harm to the game others wanted (and used to actually have).

    --H

  15. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    I think you do. But you'd rather engage in ad-hominem tactics (the preacher bit) than continue to address what I'm saying.

    It is perverse for a game designer to be under any pressure to add annoyance/grind to their game that would not otherwise be there if not for the business model encouraging players to buy their way around it. In that situation, every time you buy your way around the game's content, you're incentivizing the creation of more of the content you don't like. That. . . is. . . perverse.
    It is only perverse if the game is not otherwise free.

    But it is otherwise free. If the only thing a player ever pays for is to get rid of the grind that is bothering him, then he will be paying FAR LESS for this game than if it were a subscription model.

    It is only unfair to people who insist that the game must be played completely for free, which is unreasonable.

  16. #541
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    Admittedly grind has always been apparent in most of the MMOs that I have played over the years. Not going to say all as in one or two cases it was absent.

    However there is a distinct and noticeable difference between:

    1. Subscription based games that put in grind so as to increase the longevity of the content. Virtue grinding in SoA for example, and

    2. F2P based games that put in grind solely for the purpose of driving a player to their respective stores, whether that is to allow the player buy the bypass the grind or to gain advantage in some way or another. Good example of this is World of Tanks and how it allows players to buy better tier tanks but which offer no real noticeable difference or advantage given the ranked pvmp.

    Ultimately it all comes down to the fact that a player's time is the most valuable commodity and as such any paid-for grind avoiders that reduce the amount of time required to achieve something will always be on a F2P games menu. However and regardless of the type of grind what players need to do is be wise acknowledge that it exists and decide for themselves whether they want to partake in it or not.

  17. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karimi View Post
    It is only perverse if the game is not otherwise free.

    But it is otherwise free. If the only thing a player ever pays for is to get rid of the grind that is bothering him, then he will be paying FAR LESS for this game than if it were a subscription model.

    It is only unfair to people who insist that the game must be played completely for free, which is unreasonable.
    I don't think you understand the point I was making. Which render the above somewhat bizarre.

    The "perversity" comes in where a game designer is pressured to artificially introduce more annoyance/grind than he otherwise would.

    I think you would be hard-pressed to find a game designer who describes what he does as "finding ways to annoy those who play my game." Thus, something that pressures a game designer to intentionally make their game less fun and more grindy than sound game design principles would normally call for is, therefore, perverse.

    Asking a game designer to make his game less fun so that people will pay money to avoid parts of his game is pretty much a textbook definition of perverse where the interests of the designer and the players are concerned. But, of course, the designer also has a competing interest: Staying employed. So it happens. Just as the player has a competing interest: Getting what they want with less effort.

    Either way, it's a corruption of what the game would have otherwise been without the pressure to artificially increase/maintain grinds and/or annoyances.

    --H

  18. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Asking a game designer to make his game less fun so that people will pay money to avoid parts of his game is pretty much a textbook definition of perverse where the interests of the designer and the players are concerned. But, of course, the designer also has a competing interest: Staying employed. So it happens. Just as the player has a competing interest: Getting what they want with less effort.
    --H
    It's how Zynga made their millions with Farmville etc.

  19. #544
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karimi View Post
    It is only unfair to people who insist that the game must be played completely for free, which is unreasonable.
    I'm on my way to a meeting right now, so I can't go find the exact comment, but I read a comment from a player on Facebook the other day. She made a point of stating she had played the game without paying anything simply by earning TP in game.

    So, it's possible. If you're willing to put in the effort.

  20. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Lots of stuff

    --H
    At this point I am going to call it as you do not want to see another point of view and you believe no one does either. Before it breaks down, I'm stopping. I'm happy with what I have and if I want more there are other ways to go for it than a passive aggressive withholding of cash. LOTRO is a game I love playing and will take changes in stride. If the changes put forth are too much for you to handle then I do not begrudge you bailing.

    I look forward to reading your reply, but will not respond myself. It has been an interesting debate.
    That starts I guess with people respecting others points of view. I did try and put it tongue-in-cheek and only semi-serious but I guess that's lost on you.- A forum poster

  21. #546
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    The "perversity" comes in where a game designer is pressured to artificially introduce more annoyance/grind than he otherwise would..
    You've been very vocal about telling other people their points are false, when quite a few are actually true.

    In this case, your statement is false and you should know considering you've played this game since 2007.

    Angmar had, and still does have some of the largest requirements for kill deeds, instance deeds, class deeds AKA grind.

    The next few areas released after and expansions prior to free to play continued this model of grind, and even further tagged on further grinds such as LI creation and tweaking and more.

    Enter the f2p move ... the same design model remains, Is there really any more grind? Not really its consistent with the grinds of every pre-f2p/store release really, some changes in flavour here and there, but essentially the same as it would have been anyway considering demographics. big battles for helms deep / pelennor etc.

    The f2p/store change enables turbine to sell items to mitigate the grinds but the reality is, the grind model hasn't changed, they have infact started to decrease he requirements to complete kill deeds in the last few releases of new areas so in some ways the predictable grind of upcoming content is less then what we were used to during the angmar to great river era. (those being of the primarily subscription model era)

    So perverse? How's the design changed since SOA or MoM? It hasn't - there's just now options to mitigate and you do not have to partake.

    I see no artificial introductions of grinds that weren't already part of a base model of the game since prior to F2P. Warhorse is just another LI to me, hytbold I saw as an experiment....and there wasn;t much option to spend a lot of cash on hytbold was there?

    Do I see ANY store purchase that is directly linked to big battles at all? Anywhere? infact you can enter at level 10, and I've had level 10's with me in runs in helms deep, they do just fine in tactical and support/repair roles. So....still trying to think where any NEW grinds are designed solely to sell certain items in the store. (if helms deep required minimum level 50 - I could then maybe listen to one or two tiny arguments about the timing of a lvl 50 boost item)

    Mithril coins - hytbold argument --- mithril coins did not work on hytbold for a very long time -- and not sure but doubt they were even implemented when hytbold was at its population peek - they could've milked hytbold for every dollar during its primetime - they did not.

    Like others have claimed Hurin, I believe your arguments are biased based on your personal feelings rather than actually knowing one way or another.

  22. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lashmore View Post
    You've been very vocal about telling other people their points are false, when quite a few are actually true.

    In this case, your statement is false and you should know considering you've played this game since 2007.

    Angmar had, and still does have some of the largest requirements for kill deeds, instance deeds, class deeds AKA grind.

    The next few areas released after and expansions prior to free to play continued this model of grind, and even further tagged on further grinds such as LI creation and tweaking and more.

    Enter the f2p move ... the same design model remains, Is there really any more grind? Not really its consistent with the grinds of every pre-f2p/store release really, some changes in flavour here and there, but essentially the same as it would have been anyway considering demographics. big battles for helms deep / pelennor etc.

    The f2p/store change enables turbine to sell items to mitigate the grinds but the reality is, the grind model hasn't changed, they have infact started to decrease he requirements to complete kill deeds in the last few releases of new areas so in some ways the predictable grind of upcoming content is less then what we were used to during the angmar to great river era. (those being of the primarily subscription model era)

    So perverse? How's the design changed since SOA or MoM? It hasn't - there's just now options to mitigate and you do not have to partake.

    I see no artificial introductions of grinds that weren't already part of a base model of the game since prior to F2P. Warhorse is just another LI to me, hytbold I saw as an experiment....and there wasn;t much option to spend a lot of cash on hytbold was there?

    Do I see ANY store purchase that is directly linked to big battles at all? Anywhere? infact you can enter at level 10, and I've had level 10's with me in runs in helms deep, they do just fine in tactical and support/repair roles. So....still trying to think where any NEW grinds are designed solely to sell certain items in the store. (if helms deep required minimum level 50 - I could then maybe listen to one or two tiny arguments about the timing of a lvl 50 boost item)

    Mithril coins - hytbold argument --- mithril coins did not work on hytbold for a very long time -- and not sure but doubt they were even implemented when hytbold was at its population peek - they could've milked hytbold for every dollar during its primetime - they did not.

    Like others have claimed Hurin, I believe your arguments are biased based on your personal feelings rather than actually knowing one way or another.
    And I'll say it again in the faint hope that it gets through this time. . .

    Whether Turbine acts upon it or not. . . it is an inescapable fact that when you are in the business of selling grind avoidance, you are then motivated to perpetuate grinds in the game. When you make "convenience" a product that you sell, you make "inconvenience" something that you are motivated to create and even exacerbate. From slayer deeds to NPC placement. . . if you sell a way to make them more convenient, you have incentive to design them to be less convenient (ie., annoying).

    You, like so many others, are free to point out that grinds existed in this game prior. But doing so does nothing to address what I just said above. Even isolated cases of a grind being decreased, believe it or not, does not make what I have said above untrue. It just means that Turbine, in an isolated incident, might have resisted those pressures that undeniably exist. If you want to believe that Turbine is capable of heroically resisting those pressures (that necessarily exist) at all times, I can't stop you. I think that's naive, however, and I've provided multiple examples of where that pressure has likely had an effect (which you have conveniently ignored).

    --H

  23. #548
    The thing isn't in the store anymore is it?

  24. #549
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    What's the phrase? Correlation does not imply causation?
    If you give away gold bars, someone will complain they're too heavy.
    .: Dannach, 115 WDN :.: Daire, 86 LMR :.: Gyrefalcon, 101 CHN :.: Brandon, 75 CPT :.: Honey, 73 GRD :.: Griffon, 72 HNT :.: Sunhawk, 106 RNK :.
    .: Iryth, 61 WDN :.: Baye, 63 WDN :.: Samtal, 65 WDN :.:Dunnock, 58 WDN :.: Sedgewald, 70 LMR :.: Breyon, 45 CHN :.: Totes, 115 HNT :.

    I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul.
    Might as well face it, I'm addicted to WDN

  25. #550
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    Mar 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coruven View Post
    The thing isn't in the store anymore is it?
    No it is not.

    Sapience posted on Twitter today that we should see it back in the store from time to time.

 

 
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