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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    This is a heavy sigh moment for me. . .

    I'm that guy who keeps making posts about the "integrity" of games.

    Well, Hobbit presents stripped a lot of the integrity from the game for me. And I thought I was finally done. I took a long break.

    But after a few months, I thought. . . okay, the sting has worn off, I'll come back for Helm's Deep. So I started goofing around a bit at a time. Even just this morning, I took two of my toons to the Brown Lands to kill Easterlings for a rank of Virtue.

    And then I see this. . .

    I was hoping I'd enjoy Helm's Deep for a bit before the next big chunk of this game's integrity was excised. But it appears to be set to coincide with Helm's Deep.

    So, once again, I'm just stuck with the feeling that I'm playing a "game" that isn't even a game anymore.

    And I can't help but shake my head at all the "I hate it, but it's okay because others won't". . . I'm all for living and letting live. But this is a game. The rules and structure of a game have to be honored by its players, its officials, and even its spectators. That is wholly lost under this business model. Now, everyone's so enamored of playing "their game" their way, that the game itself has lost all semblance of integrity.

    How does it affect me if I never use it? Because. . . it's there. For my level 1 WRD and my level 35 RK, it'll be there, making the journey to level cap seem all the more arduous and pointless. In much the same way the achievement of scaling Everest would be cheapened and demeaned by the folks who build an escalator to the top or offer you helicopter rides to the summit every hour on the hour. Even if I make it the old-fashioned way, the achievement is necessarily diminished by the fact that there are now ways to get there instantly without all the hub-bub.

    One of the defining characteristics of a game, especially MMOs, was that we all had to endure the same trials and challenges while achieving the game's goals. Just as a marathon runner actually has to run the course to arrive at the finish line. That is now fully out the window. We're now fully engaged in bribing the officials to not only speed us via mo-ped to the last mile of the marathon, but also deck us out in new running shoes. And nobody sees much of a problem with it.

    Honestly, I don't even know what to do now. I was excited to start playing LotRO again in earnest. Now I'm just sitting here wondering if I'll even want to do so upon HD release. But I'm even more troubled by how untroubled this community now is about these types of developments. It really does seem like it's all over. We now accept this as just the way it is without even a modicum of resistance. Which means there will only be more of this, at ever-shortening intervals.

    --H

    P.S. If someone is still tempted to ask me why I care if I won't use this, sorry, I can't help you understand. I've explained it until I'm blue in the face. Some people just won't see it from my perspective. Just as I can't fathom theirs or how they can't see this as a cheapening/diminishment of the game.
    I won't ask you why you care i guess i understand, we simply have a completely different view of computer games and what they are about. I'm not sure if you are into E-Sports, but i figure you would like them for the same reason i hate their guts lol.
    Nothing here matters.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    That is the very definition of a false choice. They have established a binary choice where there is none.
    Just because one person says that, doesn't mean it's true, or even that the implication is actually there, unless you chose to read that into it.

    Clearly Turbine will keep developing content with our without this feature. This feature will most likely mean more money, which also means more resources for development.

    So given the choice between having this or not having this. I'd say that the lack of harm in making it to lvl 50, 6+ years after release makes what ever money they make off of it worth it. If this was a new game, or it put you at lvl 85, then it would be a different matter.

    Quite simply no one has shown how this will actually cause harm to the game and it's community as a whole. Newbies are unlikely to buy this, and end game activities won't be effected by it. So the only argument that seems to keep showing up is that it goes against what some people believe is the correct way to play a game. That and the people who use it will miss out.

    One is a subjective matter and not something you should try enforcing on others, and the other isn't any ones issue other then the people who use it.

    You can make all the references to everyone following the same rules you want. But the fact is, that Turbine not us decide what the rules are, and like every other game, the rules can and will change as time goes on.
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  3. #103
    Dont have a problem with this. If there people who wish to get instant levels then there should be an item for that. Personally I enjoy leveling.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Let me help you then. . .



    --H
    So you're saying that your sense of achievement is diminished because someone else wasn't required to go through the same content. I guess that's why I'm having such a hard time understanding this argument because I derive my enjoyment from MY experiences in game, not somebody else's. If I were to run a marathon my sense of accomplishment would be driven by MY achievement. If somebody else jumped in at the 25th mile point and beat me I would know that they cheated, but it wouldn't take away from what I had accomplished. I don't care what anybody else has done/is doing in the game as long as it's not directly impacting my ability to do what I enjoy.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidnova78 View Post
    So you're saying that your sense of achievement is diminished because someone else wasn't required to go through the same content.
    That does seem to be one of the main arguments being made. One which as you point out is pretty faulty.

    In other games I've argued against such being able skip over content. But in those cases I think you could make a much more reasonable argument that the game and community would suffer for it. But that isn't the case here.

    You don't have people being pushed to the level cap, in fact they're making it about half way there. So they aren't going to be trying to run end game content the same day they start playing.
    They also won't be suffering from a lack of good gear when they get there.

    LotRO is old enough and well established enough that there are few people entering the game for the first time. I know that when I'm in Forchel or the Misty Mountains leveling up my Warden I see few other people. This isn't just because one one is playing, Bree quite busy. So this isn't going to make the SoA areas any more empty then they already are, not at that price anyway.

    It's unlikely anyone new to the game is going to buy this service. I can't imagine many people paying that much money to skip over content they've never played though before. Especially when you consider that if they do buy it, now they're at Moria. So that means they'll have to buy the Quad Pack and most likely HD. Spending nearly $100 to buy into the game and skip the first half seems pretty unlikely.

    The cost itself is a major barrier to this being used a lot. How many people in today's economy can afford to drop $50 for a service like this, especially when it doesn't even take that long to get to 50 anyway.

    The idea that it shouldn't be allowed because not everyone is playing by the same rules is flawed. First off, it's much, much easier to get to 50 now then it was when that was the level cap. So it's not like it takes the same amount of effort today that it did back then, so they're already not playing by the same rules as you did. Second everyone playing by the same rules, it's just that the rules have changed.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidnova78 View Post
    If somebody else jumped in at the 25th mile point and beat me I would know that they cheated, but it wouldn't take away from what I had accomplished.
    But wait, they didn't cheat. Because, don't ya see, marathons now accommodate those who don't actually want to run the marathon. Sure, back in the day, everyone had to run it. But then the organizers of the marathon made it known that there were more "convenient" ways to reach the finish line so long as you gave them a wad of cash for the "convenience."

    Now, you can put your blinders on, and ignore the fact that the marathon itself is fundamentally altered by that. You can run it the old fashioned way I suppose. But the marathon itself is changed. And when they add bicycles to it the next year, and then segways the year after that, perhaps you'll then start to realize that the marathon itself is becoming more and more tainted and less and less worthwhile.

    But, doubtless there will still be folks running it the old fashioned way even as people on segways zip by them. And more power to them. It's still the case however that the marathon isn't recognizable as a marathon anymore.

    But remember, it ain't cheating! Even if much of what is now sold in the Store would have been considered egregious cheating four years ago had players figured out ways to achieve the same results without paying Turbine for them. But now that Turbine makes money off those very same things, it's somehow good for the game that everyone's essentially buying their way around the game's content, and each person has some idiosyncratic path through the game that's potentially unrecognizable to anyone else.

    But, to be clear, my sense of achievement in the game isn't diminished by what you or anyone else does. It's diminished by what the game allows. By its very nature, an achievement is more precious if there's only one way to achieve it. If there's an easy way to do something, especially one that's just suddenly invented ex nihilo, then that achievement is necessarily diminished. Even if some people want to put their hands over their ears, don their blinders and say: "But I'm going to pretend that there is no other way and pretend it's still a great achievement!" I know that most of the achievements in this game can now be had for coin instead of effort. That makes them less worthy of my time and effort. And while I've tried to keep my blinders and earmuffs in place, that reality eventually creeps in. Ever more egregiously with each game update.

    As for the notion (stated by others) that this represents some people trying to "enforce" the "correct" way to play the game on others, thus introducing some fanciful moral superiority into the discussion. . . this is a game. Games and sport, by their very nature, restrict us. In soccer, you can't use your hands. In baseball, you only get three strikes. In a marathon, you don't get a segway. In mountain climbing, you don't get to ride a helicopter to the summit. Heck, even in solitaire, winning is only worthwhile if you do it the way Solitaire says you should (I've never played it, so I can't be more specific or even sure if that particular analogy makes sense). We all agree upon certain limitations and establish the framework within which we work to achieve our goals whether those be team goals or personal ones. To go outside that framework is to "cheat" or otherwise render whatever you've "achieved" questionable. When changes are proposed to those frameworks/rules, those resisting them aren't "enforcing" a "correct" way to play the game. They are merely trying to preserve the game as something they recognize as a game with integrity that has a recognizable continuity to the game as it has stood up to that point. In those analogous endeavors, changes to the game are often resisted because it diminishes the game (designated hitter, etc.). To say nothing of the fact that players aren't allowed to hand the umpire $50 to get a free pass to first base. If I resist a call to allow all players in soccer to use their hands (because some want to play "their" version of soccer), I'm not "enforcing" a "correct" way to play soccer so much as I'm saying: "This is soccer. What you're proposing is no longer soccer even if you would enjoy playing it." And, before someone says "but that's a competitive sport!". . . the same principles apply to solo-sports which is why I use marathons and mountain climbing in my prior analogies.

    --H

    P.S. I've never taken part in an "e-sport" and hardly know what that is. I just know that a game with integrity doesn't allow cheating. And more and more, I'm convinced that the LotRO store is essentially selling what we all would have readily called "cheats" only a few years ago. They're selling things that would never have been allowed to happen in the game prior to them figuring out how to profit by allowing them. 'Nuff said.

    P.P.S. The LotRO store model was inevitable and necessary. But it need not have become this pervasive or destructive to the game's integrity so quickly had its players been more cognizant and vigilant against that damage being done. But, each time, we cut them some slack. And they hasten their pace because there will always be pressure to increase revenue quarter after quarter (which in and of itself is not a bad thing, I'm a capitalist!).
    "Ephemeral" does not mean what I think it means.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Games and sport, by their very nature, restrict us.
    That does not however mean that the restrictions can't and won't change. Because that's what you're really asking for. Is for there to be no change in the rules, ever.

    But it's too late for that, the rules have already changed. It doesn't take the same amount of effort to get to 50 that it once did, so things have already changed. It's not like the achievement is the same today as it was before anyway. The restrictions have already changed, and IMO for the better.

    Because at this point in the games lifecycle, expecting people to spend as much effort to reach 50 as it took back when that was the level cap would only hurt the game, not help it.

    The only way this change really effects anyone, is if they let effect them, either because they use the service, or because they feel somehow cheated by someone having it easier then them... Which again already happened, maybe not to the same degree, but people going from lvl 1 to 50 right now aren't running that same 26 miles you did.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solarfox View Post
    You can make all the references to everyone following the same rules you want. But the fact is, that Turbine not us decide what the rules are, and like every other game, the rules can and will change as time goes on.
    There was once a game called LotRO where you had to earn what you achieved. You wanted a legacy for your LI? You played the game to earn it. You wanted the next Virtue rank? You played the game to earn it. You wanted to reach level 50? You played the game to earn it. You wanted to get a higher crit chance in crafting? You played the game to earn it.

    If you found a way to achieve any of those things without playing the game or earning it, you were a cheater. And if you were discovered, you were kicked out of the game.

    Then Turbine grafted onto that existing game that did not allow cheating the ability for Turbine to receive money for allowing/providing the very things that were, up to that very moment, considered cheats.

    But it's all fine, because "Turbine not us decide what the rules are". . .

    I would submit to you --on the off-chance that it's not crystal clear by now-- that when the new (necessary/inevitable) business model was introduced, Turbine's interests became conflicted where the integrity of the game is concerned. And that's only one conflict of interest (ever noticed how they now have incentive to make the game more grindy so that they can sell us grind-avoidance?).

    Clearly, good/compelling game design called for none of these "cheats" to be possible. . . before Turbine discovered that they could profit by making them possible. And now those things are somehow not "cheat" that violate the integrity of the game? Merely because you give Turbine money to do them?

    And so many people buy right into it, and even applaud it. It's mind-boggling to me. We could have a Free-to-Play model that is both profitable and respects the game's integrity if we had more players that were even aware of the damage constantly being done to that integrity. . . and aware that Turbine is now in a classic conflict of interest where that integrity is concerned. Quite simply, it is possible for them to profit more by damaging the integrity of their own game a little at a time than they would otherwise profit by leaving it intact and honoring those lines (some even self-imposed) that should not be crossed.
    "Ephemeral" does not mean what I think it means.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    We could have a Free-to-Play model that is both profitable and respects the game's integrity if we had more players that were even aware of the damage constantly being done to that integrity. . .
    And again your whole argument is nothing more then an appeal to morality.
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  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    But, to be clear, my sense of achievement in the game isn't diminished by what you or anyone else does. It's diminished by what the game allows. By its very nature, an achievement is more precious if there's only one way to achieve it. If there's an easy way to do something, especially one that's just suddenly invented ex nihilo, then that achievement is necessarily diminished. Even if some people want to put their hands over their ears, don their blinders and say: "But I'm going to pretend that there is no other way and pretend it's still a great achievement!" I know that most of the achievements in this game can now be had for coin instead of effort. That makes them less worthy of my time and effort. And while I've tried to keep my blinders and earmuffs in place, that reality eventually creeps in. Ever more egregiously with each game update.
    I stopped when scanning this thread to really try and understand this. I cannot. Are you saying leveling is an meta achievement that is diminished because other folks trade time for money. (and consequently miss out on some content) That makes no sense to me. Achievements in this game are individual. What you do, how you play, what you have completed, etc. None of this is impacted by any one else or their level. It sure sounds to me like you are trying to say there is only one way to play a game. I am not trying to flame, I really am trying to understand this. Maybe I am just missing your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    As for the notion (stated by others) that this represents some people trying to "enforce" the "correct" way to play the game on others, thus introducing some fanciful moral superiority into the discussion. . . this is a game.
    For that to apply then you must view leveling as the "score". Perhaps that helps me with the above questions. I just don't see it that way. I think you need to step back and see that bigger picture. As the game gets more and more levels, not having this mechanism for some folks will be an entrance barrier. And that is bad for the "game". The concept of time being the only currency in an MMO is no longer true. I think we as players just have to accept that and understand it (from a capitalist as well as long term game health point of view)

    This just creates more options for folks that want to jump in and play. Can't say I would use this, I have 9 toons already most at or near cap. But if somebody wants to pay 50 bucks for a level 50 toon to Turbine...that is money that will benefit me (and you) because it benefits the game....go for it. Heck maybe we should send them a thank you note for contributing to the next expansion
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solarfox View Post
    And again your whole argument is nothing more then an appeal to morality.
    Except the part where I compare what Turbine allowed in this game compared to what Turbine allowed in this game after they implemented a mechanism by which you can shove money in their face in return for allowing it.

    That's not an appeal to morality, that's pointing out a difference, a motivation for the change, and a conflict of interest on the part of Turbine where the integrity of the game is concerned.

    But, of course, I think you know this. Which is why your response has now gotten so terse while referencing only a single sentence.
    "Ephemeral" does not mean what I think it means.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varel View Post
    It sure sounds to me like you are trying to say there is only one way to play a game.
    No that's exactly what he's saying, and as I've pointed out, the level 1-50 part of the game has already changed so much, that his basic point is really flawed. Because while skipping the content completely is a pretty big step, it is still only a step in the same direction that's already been going on.

    Level 1-50 is easier then it was, because it has to become that way. If it takes the same time and effort to get though it as it did when it was the level cap, you'll lose out on most new players the the game.

    But clearly he feels that doing so is cheating, and morally wrong, due to the way he keeps talking about integrity. Which means we're already all cheaters, because I know I can make it to 50 with much less effort now then when the game was released.

    The concept of time being the only currency in an MMO is no longer true.
    That's actually a great way to look at it. If Time = Money then it's just a question of which one you're willing to spend. But for many old school MMO players the idea of being able to spend money rather then time is simply antithetical, because that's not how they think things should be. I've seen it over and over again. People who feel that being able to buy into the game is somehow immoral.

    In a more competitive game I'd tend to agree. I don't care for Pay to Win in any kind of pure PvP game, because then you do have someone converting money into an advantage, that creates an unfair playing field. But in MMO's which are not competitive, this simply doesn't apply in the same way. If someone can drop $50 and then become a member of the community in good order, I say more power too them. But for some, like Hurin, these people should be shunned and branded with a scarlet A.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Which is why your response has now gotten so terse while referencing only a single sentence.
    No I'm just done arguing with someone who's whole argument can be boiled down to "You shouldn't be allowed to do something I don't like."
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varel View Post
    It sure sounds to me like you are trying to say there is only one way to play a game. I am not trying to flame, I really am trying to understand this. Maybe I am just missing your point.
    There is no one way to play the game. But what you're defending isn't playing the game at all. It's a Turbine-sanctioned cheat to avoid playing the game (a large chunk of it). That is only sanctioned because they now allow you to throw money at them so that they will allow that cheating.

    For that to apply then you must view leveling as the "score".
    I honestly can't make sense of how you said this in response to what you quoted. But no, leveling is not a "score". . . but it is a goal and an achievement. Games need not have "scores". . . so I'm not sure what is meant here.
    "Ephemeral" does not mean what I think it means.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solarfox View Post
    No I'm just done arguing with someone who's whole argument can be boiled down to "You shouldn't be allowed to do something I don't like."
    You are indeed done arguing with me apparently. Because that's not in any way a fair or accurate assessment of my argument.

    Continuing this line of bickering will only serve to lock the thread. So I will refrain unless you can come up with something more substantive than misrepresentations.
    "Ephemeral" does not mean what I think it means.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    If someone says (as they did): "I have no problem with this. Make your money Turbine so you can keep developing!"

    The implication is that without this (and things like it), they will not "keep developing."
    I think the implication is more that without money, they will not keep developing...

    As for the argument that it ruins the game's integrity, people have integrity, not games.
    Originally Posted by Damian6988
    That is not unlike drinking a pot of coffee and taking a Valium.
    "I want to stay up and get more work done, but I don't want to remember any of it."

  17. #117
    And Blizzard just announced the next expansion for WoW, which will include the ability to insta-level a single toon of your choosing to 90. (new level cap will be 100)

    Would have been nice of Turbine to include a single insta-level to 50 with the HD Premium Edition.
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    But this is a game. The rules and structure of a game have to be honored by its players, its officials, and even its spectators. That is wholly lost under this business model. Now, everyone's so enamored of playing "their game" their way, that the game itself has lost all semblance of integrity.
    Traditional games feature a fixed rule set with all players operating under those rules to determine progress, victory, and defeat. Since the rule set never changes and all participants must adhere to the rule set, they have integrity as you describe. MMOs like LOTRO lack a fixed rule set and therefore do not and never did operate as traditional games. As the loading screen states, "game experience may change during play".

    Games with and without integrity compete against one another much like organisms. It appears that, in the MMO market, games without integrity have a significant survival advantage. I can envision a profitable game that grows organically while adhering to the integrity principle alluded to above, but such games have not yet evolved or evolved and survived. I personally hope such games make an appearance and flourish, and one may argue for them as you do, but as it stands, they simply do not exist.

    Given the situation, I evaluate each rules change based on one simple question: Does this change improve my game experience?

    Historically, Turbine developers have adjusted experience point curves, reduced monster difficulty, streamlined quest chains, given out experience for crafting, given out experience for festival quests, sold experience point acquisition acceleration items, made classes more powerful, and made classes easier to play, all in an attempt to get a certain type of player to maximum level as quickly as possible. Players who enjoy higher difficulty, more complicated game play, experiencing the story as intended, and an experience curve that keeps them at the correct level through entire quest chains, face an ever diminishing game experience. I want that to stop. Given that Turbine managers will go after money from fast levelers, and that nothing I suggest will prevent this, I must seek a remedy that minimizes their impact on my game play. That remedy is to allow fast levelers to skip the game, all of it, and go right to the top. If they are not constantly badgering Turbine developers to dumb down the game so they can leap over it, Turbine developers may stop tweaking everything else for the worse. That is my sole and entire hope.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexendynamus View Post
    That is my sole and entire hope.
    That's an interesting take on it.

    Better to let people skip over content completely, rather then to continue to make it easier for them to blow though. I can see how that would be the better option for people who prefer a more challenging time of it when leveling up.

    But sadly I don't think it's an option that really works as a fix. Add something like this too soon in the games lifecycle and you hurt the game as a whole. But at the same time, you can't keep the level curb the same if you keep adding in more and more levels.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainith View Post
    As for the argument that it ruins the game's integrity, people have integrity, not games.
    Cute. But how about a ship's hull?

    Integrity has more than on meaning in a given context.
    "Ephemeral" does not mean what I think it means.

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    I find this a good thing....

    This item is mostly for power levelers that already spend cash for xp boosts and other stuff...
    The game is almost 7 years old now and some players just dont want to run through the same content over and over again just so they can play a new class at level 95....
    New players will want to expirience the game so this is not intended for them... those that just like leveling different chars also wont be buying this...
    From lvl 50 to 95 there is plenty of levels.... You have time to learn the class...

    All in all, a very positive thing even though the price is a bit too high...

    Oh and there are some good videos on the channel....
    I agree that people pay outside game to be powerlvled. now this will take away from companies that cheat the system. although, the price for this is way too high and you wont see alot of people buying it. wouldnt it make more since to lower the price? which inturn more people would buy this? which inturn they would make more money? im just looking at this from the other side of the coin.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexendynamus View Post
    Traditional games feature a fixed rule set with all players operating under those rules to determine progress, victory, and defeat. Since the rule set never changes and all participants must adhere to the rule set, they have integrity as you describe. MMOs like LOTRO lack a fixed rule set and therefore do not and never did operate as traditional games. As the loading screen states, "game experience may change during play".
    I think this is missing the forest for the trees a little bit. Sure, "game experience may change during play". . . and LotRO changed over time. But there's gradual evolving and tweaking, and then there's the sudden introduction of developer-sanctioned cheating and then just writing it off as morally unassailable "choice" for the players.

    Games with and without integrity compete against one another much like organisms. It appears that, in the MMO market, games without integrity have a significant survival advantage. I can envision a profitable game that grows organically while adhering to the integrity principle alluded to above, but such games have not yet evolved or evolved and survived. I personally hope such games make an appearance and flourish, and one may argue for them as you do, but as it stands, they simply do not exist.
    All in all, we seem to be in agreement about the concept of a game's integrity, and even about the realities of the current marketplace. As you may have read above, I fully allow for the fact that the more profitable business model will flourish at the expense of all others. And the free-to-play business model is clearly superior to the original subscription-based model where the company's bottom line is concerned. But, you seem able to acknowledge that what is best for profit short-and-near-term is not necessarily what is best for what we call the integrity of the game.

    What I truly lament is that more people used to recognize these concepts while now few seem to do so while the majority seem supremely puzzled that such principles even exist. Prior, there was more hue and cry when certain principles were violated. This was the only thing that had kept the game from plummeting down the proverbial slippery slope even faster than it actually has. But, whereas this type of development would have illicited outrage only a year or two ago, we now seem to be at a point where the vast majority remaining seem wholly at peace with it, and even applaud it. Which I find. . . immensely dispiriting.

    Turbine's motives are honorable. They want to be as successful/profitable as they possibly can be. Believe it or not (everyone), this doesn't always coincide with preserving the integrity of their own game long-term. Especially in light of the fact that they will not have the license for this game forever. It was our job as players to make it clear when Turbine was crossing a line in pursuing their honorable goals as a business. Ya know, checks and balances, etc. This community raised holy heck over much less egregious violations in the past. Yet, here we are with this huge transgression and there's hardly a peep. It does not bode well for the future for those who recognize that games have integrity beyond whether a particular change suits a particular playstyle.

    --H
    "Ephemeral" does not mean what I think it means.

  23. #123
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Cute. But how about a ship's hull?

    Integrity has more than on meaning in a given context.
    Hiya cutie yourself, but as you took the definition from dictionary.com you know that type of integrity isn't what you were describing in your diatribes.

    1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

    2. the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.


    3. a
    sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.
    What you described was type 1 not type 3. And as most people know, no software exists in a perfect state. This game isn't perfect and it never was.
    Last edited by Rainith; Nov 08 2013 at 05:21 PM. Reason: hardware -> software. oops
    Originally Posted by Damian6988
    That is not unlike drinking a pot of coffee and taking a Valium.
    "I want to stay up and get more work done, but I don't want to remember any of it."

  24. #124
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by hobbit1968 View Post
    wouldnt it make more since to lower the price? which inturn more people would buy this?
    There's no doubt that the price they set is intentional. They want the price to act as a bit of a barrier.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000023bdbd/01006/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  25. #125
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurin View Post
    Yet, here we are with this huge transgression and there's hardly a peep.
    You know, you might make a better point if you avoided constantly throwing these morality based terms around. Because now this is not only cheating, it's actually risen to the level of breaking the law according to you.

    You claim that you're not trying to insert your morality into it, yet every post you do just exactly that. You condemn anyone who has a difference of opinion on how they should spend their time and money.

    The reason there isn't much of a outcry about this, is quite simple. The game is over 6 years old, a point which seems to escape you. It's not the same thing as it was when SoA was released. People don't care, not because they've become morally bankrupt as you seem to think. But because skipping over something they've done 6 or more times before just isn't that big of a deal to them.

    Just because someone is willing to convert Money into Time does not make them immoral people, and they are not cheating no matter how many times you may claim, because they are in fact playing by the rules as they exist right now. They just aren't playing by the rules as you think they should be.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a00000023bdbd/01006/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

 

 
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