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  1. #1
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    Understanding Threat in HD

    Why Revamp Threat?
    Answer from the 40Q

    "Our threat system as it exists on live pre u12 is largely invisible to players and if you saw under the hood you would likely not be pleased. Rather than expose it, and seeing as we were making fundamental changes to how character builds function, we decided to simplify it. Choosing a tank specialization will give you a tangible amount of threat. We will still have forced taunts, but whether or not something multiplies your damage (which differs from character to character) times a strange number modified by another strange number will be irrelevant."
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...24#post6946424


    How is Threat Revamped?
    if you spec
    • Blue warden
    • Yellow captain
    • Blue champion
    • Yellow guardian
    • Blue guardian
    you get a 300% multipler on all damaging skills to generate additional aggro. so 100damage generates 300aggro, while players who are not spec into those lines just generate 100aggro with 100damage

    these classes and lines have had huge dps balancing changes to make sure there dps is high enough without the need to go to far into dps stats to generate enough aggro to be competitive.

    Force Taunts: All force taunt abilities will be receiving a form of 'threat catch-up' to assist with tank-swapping and over-eager dps
    Force Taunts, that are not tied to spec's, will be a tanks bread and butter to maintain aggro over various issues if the "passive" aggro isn't enough.

    force taunt skills (Engage, Fray the Edge, Challenge, Defiant Challange...), have a force taunt mechanic, but they also have a new threat catch-up mechanic that will look at the highest threat target on the mob, and then place the tank at a percentage above them. This is intended to be used for tank swap situations, or out of control DPS. If the tank happens to be at the top of the threat list, the force attack component comes into play, allowing the Guardian a bit of time to generate additional threat with their skills.
    that percentage looks to be 20% over from whoever took it from you.

    additional aggro on skills hasn't been calculated but is high enough ^_^



    Q. how can we pull targets we aren't supposed to hit? (Like mezzed mobs)
    Forced taunts do not have damage added onto the skills, you should be able to use them pre-emtively to get the aggro over any healers who might have it (assuming healing aggro remains).

    Q. How can I dps a target I'm not supposed to tank?
    If you are traited for tanking and you need to dps, you will generate a huge amount of aggro. unfortunatly I don't see a way to get past this issue.

    Q. How can I switch to tanking mid-fight if something goes wrong?
    You will need the spec bonus to get the additional threat on damage. however, if you trait for a forced taunt skill you could probably use this to tank for short amounts of time.

    Q. Does it matter what Stance I am in on warden?
    no. Assailment or Determination, as long as you are specced blue, will generate 300% aggro.

    Q. How do I get aggro at range on warden?
    threat is not tied to your melee stance, you can use assailment gambits and javalins to cause dps at range, in effect, causing aggro.

    Q. Whats the point of an Off-Tank?
    An off-tank looks more interesting than ever. for a start, they could use there forced taunt to "match, then surpass" the tank, then the tank "match, then surpass" the off-tank. in effect crating more aggro than one could alone without the boss ever turning to anyone squishy. an off-tank with just the forced taunt will be very useful to pull adds off allies, drag to the tank for the tank to grab them with there force taunt. you could even use a ranged forced taunt like captains "threatening shout" to pull a boss for a little while and mitigate some damage off the main tank for a short time.

    Q. Won't I do the most aggro if I just spam my forced taunt?
    no. you might potentially put it on cooldown and have no way to pull off someone else. the cooldowns are short, don't be fooled, all tanks will need to use them very smartly either reaction to losing aggro or pre-emtively planned with something/someone else.
    Last edited by bohbashum; Nov 23 2013 at 09:14 PM.

  2. #2
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    really curious how this will turn out, any experiences with this change and how well tanks will be able to maintain aggro?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixxer View Post
    really curious how this will turn out, any experiences with this change and how well tanks will be able to maintain aggro?
    I've tested it a lot tbh.

    tanking in Big Battles is really weird at the moment so hopefully that'll be fixed. atm, there is no need for a tank in them.

    aggro outside of BB's is ok. the "huge dps balancing" is big, REALLY BIG. I was able to hold 1k dps in tank spec without really trying with only tanky tank stuff equipped. basically the only tank seriously shafted with these changes are the wardens who can no longer aoe aggro as effectively or leech aggro. the warden is the only tank with only 1 taunt skill too.

    - 3 man
    I doubt tanks will have much of a problem holding aggro in smaller groups as dps probably won't get too high and most fights are normally single-target. tanks would find saving there pull back much easier to manage with potentially only 1dps being in competition with them.

    - 6 man
    you'll probably end up losing aggro a lot more and most fights you'll be on the edge of the cooldowns on your taunts to pull them back. with support classes buffing dps higher and multiple dps classes competing for the aggro this will probably be a tanks hardest times to hold aggro. I suspect if you want to tank in speed runs, you probably will build for aggro/dps items unfortunatly. but there is a lot out there to boost you up so hopefully we'll still be viable... I suspect people might end up doing speed runs with 4dps a pure healer and a pure support now though, it would just be easier, as a warden my red and yellow lines look very good for that.

    - raids
    something funky happends now. not many people just want to speed run too much but dps will be much higher. however, 1 off-tank will be a HUGE help with aggro swapping. I can't stress this enough but just 1 tank and an off-tank (any of the 4 tank classes can off-tank with a few points off-spec into the tank line) can generate some stupid aggro numbers for the tank. basically have your off-tank match up from the tank, then the tank match up from the off-tank quickly. thats 144% over the tanks innitial aggro... insane... raid tanking will probably be where the system shines.

  4. #4
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    Just wanted to comment that, shortly after this went up, jwbarry stated that they're working on tuning Epic Battle enemies to play more nicely with the threat system. It's been confirmed that Forced Taunts are working to pull mobs, at the very least, and enemies without specific objectives are supposed to have an innately higher chance (though it's still a chance, not a guarantee) to go after tank-spec players instead of only attacking the Rohirrim NPCs as well.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Just wanted to comment that, shortly after this went up, jwbarry stated that they're working on tuning Epic Battle enemies to play more nicely with the threat system. It's been confirmed that Forced Taunts are working to pull mobs, at the very least, and enemies without specific objectives are supposed to have an innately higher chance (though it's still a chance, not a guarantee) to go after tank-spec players instead of only attacking the Rohirrim NPCs as well.
    as of beta 6 warden is still going to be a horrible broken mess in BB's.

    if they fixed the constantly going in and out of combat it'd help a ton.
    as of beta 6 I did grab aggro a few times, I assume this might be better in group play but still useless spec line for solo.
    force-taunts weren't what was getting me aggro though, normal attacks actually, so maybe it's not fully implimented.
    just standing where they ended there auto-run I actually grabbed aggro a few times which was nice, so thats implimented well.

    as a whole, I see no point in rolling a tank in BB's in the first place (CC does so epic in there). of those 4 tanks you seriously don't want a warden.

    outside of BB's I'm not that worried about aggro and all that jazz. yes it's boring, yes you'll need to check your dps and do stuff very differantly, but over a few tests of tanking content it is much more challanging to hold aggro and I hold aggro 90% of the time just fine.

    thats seriously holding back a barrel full of many other issues I'm having with warden. I'm even doubting the wardens viability, not only as a tank, but everything else.

  6. #6
    How do these changes affect a minstrel in a group? (or any other healing class)
    I for one am busy managing agro too once in a group. But HD makes this more simple because we aren't dps-ing, we aren't agro-ing?
    Didn't check all the revamped skills tho, but removing the threat-legacy for Minstrel LI's, does imply that on the healers-side things are changing too.
    Can any tester explain this a bit more please?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drawbar View Post
    How do these changes affect a minstrel in a group? (or any other healing class)
    I for one am busy managing agro too once in a group. But HD makes this more simple because we aren't dps-ing, we aren't agro-ing?
    Didn't check all the revamped skills tho, but removing the threat-legacy for Minstrel LI's, does imply that on the healers-side things are changing too.
    Can any tester explain this a bit more please?
    healing aggro has not changed at all from a few tests I did across live and beta (that was beta 5 though so might change, will wait till live to see if anything has happened).

    tanks will be able to pull off healers much more effectively with the new taunt though, so you *might* get aggro a lot more, but only for 2s or so if the tanks good.

    remember though that healing aggro is only applies to what is actually healed, not over-healed. so while you might be doing insane numbers compared to before it actually doesn't generate more aggro than you did before as tanks will be getting hit to the same scaled amount. in my runs of older content in beta it was never the healers who took aggro from me though, only dps.

    I don't think healers need to worry too much unless the fight it's self is a slow one and dps can't/won't be too high. in raids, an off-tank is extremely powerful roll so I assume in those cases you won't generate more aggro than a tank and off-tank together.

  8. #8
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    So how do guardians, wardens, chanks [champ tanks], and captanks [captain tanks] stack up?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  9. #9
    Just judging by what I've read so far, Guardians are still the kings of tanking and Wardens seem to need some serious help.
    Also I think I remember reading something about champ bubbles going away so I'm curious as to how that would effect thier tanking.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    So how do guardians, wardens, chanks [champ tanks], and captanks [captain tanks] stack up?
    Captanks are looking pretty good for single-target threat (what else is new? :P).

    There was an end-of-beta event that spawned Bugud in Suri-Kyla. I walked up when he was at ~90% HP, grabbed aggro, and held it all the way until he died. Good times.

    The fact that Threatening Shout can take a trait to hit 6 targets (and is a threat catch-up rather than just a threat-generating skill) now suggests that Captain multi-target aggro should be good as well.

    As for survivability, I think Captanks are possibly doing better than Wardens. Self-healing from the Leader of Men line is pretty massive. During one test of solo survivability, I got over 1800 HPS. Not sure what the comparison with Guardians looks like.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    As for survivability, I think Captanks are possibly doing better than Wardens. Self-healing from the Leader of Men line is pretty massive. During one test of solo survivability, I got over 1800 HPS. Not sure what the comparison with Guardians looks like.
    Both Captains and Guardians have some crazy selfhealing when they tank many mobs at once. For captains it is thanks to shield-brother with its Shield-brother's Call and Inspire heal. For Guardians it is healing proc on every block event. On both classes (lvl91 guardian, lvl95 captain) I could pull just everything on the ground floor in Library and there was no risk of dying ever. On a Guard I even went afk for 15 minutes just to check when my armour would finally break. It did not, so I had to remove my shield just to be able to die and leave the instance.

    Now how this will work out in a group where a tank has to keep agro against pretty high spike damage of other fellowship members - we will see that soon. During beta event it was beyond boring on any tanking class. Agro was just going to that person who shouted faster. As a lvl95 captain I would keep agro of multiple Balrogs/turtles/whatever but then a lvl 85 guard/warden would be able to take agro just with a single shout. And of course I could take it back whenever I liked.

    One thing surprised me most - while I saw plenty of tanking guards/wardens/captains during the Beta event, I did not see a single tanking champion.
    Ishtarien - Captain 105
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasa View Post
    Now how this will work out in a group where a tank has to keep agro against pretty high spike damage of other fellowship members - we will see that soon. During beta event it was beyond boring on any tanking class. Agro was just going to that person who shouted faster.
    Well, the revamps had two goals. The goal of making aggro management simpler definitely succeeded. That was supposed to be compensated by making survival harder (or at least more active), which I don't think was quite as successful. (Poor Wardens. They probably hit the spot the devs intended all the tanks to be at, but the Guards and Captanks overshot it and are making them look bad.)
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    healing aggro has not changed at all from a few tests I did across live and beta (that was beta 5 though so might change, will wait till live to see if anything has happened).

    tanks will be able to pull off healers much more effectively with the new taunt though, so you *might* get aggro a lot more, but only for 2s or so if the tanks good.

    remember though that healing aggro is only applies to what is actually healed, not over-healed. so while you might be doing insane numbers compared to before it actually doesn't generate more aggro than you did before as tanks will be getting hit to the same scaled amount. in my runs of older content in beta it was never the healers who took aggro from me though, only dps.

    I don't think healers need to worry too much unless the fight it's self is a slow one and dps can't/won't be too high. in raids, an off-tank is extremely powerful roll so I assume in those cases you won't generate more aggro than a tank and off-tank together.
    Thanks for the reply!
    And no, I'm not worried about getting agro. More worried about the fact the system will be a bit dull compared to the current. I actualy liked it!
    Then again, we'll see what happens when HD goes live and all cope with it.

 

 

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