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  1. #1
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    Some Sample Builds from Helm's Deep

    Ok, the beta NDA has dropped, so you all can see the full list of changes. It's hard to see how they all fit together, though, until you start playing around with builds to discover what's possible now (and what isn't). So, I thought I would share some of the builds I've been playing with in beta, to give you all an idea of how the changes work in practice.

    To keep things short, I'm going to name traits but not describe them, and include some brief commentary only where necessary. Open up Belnavar's Change Summary thread for reference as you read this. I'll organise the builds by choice of Specialisation, and I'll focus on trait builds (since I imagine that's what folks are most curious about, and I spent much more time playing with traits than with LI legacies). Traits will be identified like so: "<Name> (<Tier> - <Points Spent>/<Max Points>)"

    Further note: These are all at level 88, with all my class deeds done. A level 95 Cappy will actually have more trait points to spend, but the amount I have now is more than enough to show the general shape of Captain builds. (Plus, I've used them and know that they work.)


    Lead the Charge Spec



    LtC is obviously our main solo line. So, I'll start off with a soloing build, breaking down the traits by tree.

    Hands of Healing - 7 Ranks (14 points)
    • Reversal (T1 - 2/2)
    • Skilled Hands (T1 -3/3)
    • Dignified Spectacle (T2 - 2/4)


    Several of the HoH traits increase both damage and healing, so I sniped a couple to improve my self-heals without sacrificing too much damage.

    Lead the Charge - 30 Ranks
    • React to Battle (T1 - 3/3)
    • Deafening Shouts (T1 - 3/3)
    • Martial Prowess (T1- 3/3)
    • Make Them Bleed (T2 - 1/5)
    • Hardened Heart (T2 - 3/3)
    • Penetrating Cry (T3 - 3/3)
    • Arterial Strikes (T3 - 3/3)
    • Time of Need (T3 - 1/1) [optional]
    • Heightened Allies (T4 - 2/2)
    • Impactful Blows (T5 - 3/3)
    • Standard of War (T5 - 5/5)


    Leader of Men - 6 Ranks (12 Points)
    • Situational Awareness (T1 - 5/5) [took it for kicks; the Max Morale trait is just as good for soloing]
    • Noble Mark (T2 - 1/1)


    Noble Mark is back to doing a DoT. It's not that big, but it's affected by Light damage bonuses, of which we now have several. More importantly, it heals 1% of your maximum morale. It adds up, and I find it very useful in the rare instance I run into something that's actually hard to solo.
    Ok, fine, but I'm sure people are more curious about grouping. Here's a set up that I feel emulates a 5/2 of 4/3 LtC raid build reasonably well.

    Hands of Healing - 12 Ranks (24 Points)
    • Reversal (T1 - 2/2)
    • Skilled Hands (T1 -3/3)
    • Blood of Numenor (T2 - 3/3)
    • Revealing Mark (T2 - 1/1)
    • Dignified Spectacle (T2 - 1/4)
    • Gallant Display (T3 - 1/1)
    • Rousing Cry (T3 - 1/3)


    A lot of decent healing traits are front-loaded in HoH. I personally like the new Gallant Display skill, but you could easily opt to take an extra point in Rousing Cry instead. You could also opt to complete the Dignified Spectacle trait for more healing and damage, rather than taking Blood of Numenor, but IMO the improved Cry of Vengeance rez is a nice thing to have in your back pocket now.

    Lead the Charge - 32 Ranks
    • React to Battle (T1 - 3/3)
    • Deafening Shouts (T1 - 3/3)
    • Martial Prowess (T1- 3/3)
    • Hardened Heart (T2 - 3/3)
    • Telling Mark (T2 - 1/1)
    • Penetrating Cry (T3 - 3/3)
    • Arterial Strikes (T3 - 3/3)
    • Time of Need (T3 - 1/1)
    • Advantageous Attack (T3 - 1/1)
    • Impactful Blows (T5 - 2/3)
    • Standard of War (T5 - 5/5)
    • Fellowship of the Blade (T6 - 3/3)
    • Oathbreaker's Shame (T7 - 1/1)


    It's a nice mix of personal damage and group benefits. IIRC, I parsed around 1.7k DPS with this build, and it doesn't even have all the LtC traits. I tested a full LtC build and got ~2k.

    Hands of Healing Spec



    Hands of Healing is actually way more interesting than it used to be; arguably, it's the most interesting line now, overall. A lot of traits are designed to increase both damage and healing.

    FWIW, there's a trait in T1 that increases Outgoing Healing if you use a shield. I don't use a shield, so I never use the trait. Incidentally, a lot of the damage traits in this line affect Tactical Damage only. Our shouts had their base damage increases, so it's less pointless than it might sound at first. Also makes for a decent mounted combat line.

    Here's a Healer-Support build that snags In Harm's Way. A lot of Beta feedback revolved around the presence and placement of IHW, so I want to show that it's possible to have an effective healing build that dips far enough into Leader of Men to grab that skill. However, I did bring it into some Epic Battle raids, and it's pretty handy there. Consider it the equivalent of doing a 5B/2Y build on live.

    Hands of Healing - 34 Ranks
    • Reversal (T1 - 2/2)
    • Skilled Hands (T1 -3/3)
    • Blood of Numenor (T2 - 3/3)
    • Revealing Mark (T2 - 1/1)
    • Dignified Spectacle (T2 - 4/4)
    • Gallant Display (T3 - 1/1)
    • Rousing Cry (T3 - 3/3)
    • Astute Hands (T4 - 5/5)
    • Honourable Blow (T4 - 1/1)
    • Standard of Honour (T5 - 5/5)
    • Rallying Roar (T6 - 5/5)
    • Reform the Lines (T7 - 1/1)


    Admittedly, lots to quibble with here. I didn't take any ranks of the Fellowship-Brother-equivalent trait in this line, because it only affects To Arms! and Inspire. To Arms! still has the Outgoing Healing effect, so isn't that useful for the overall group, and we have enough other heals that the extra HPS/PPS from Inspire (all three versions give both Morale and Power now!) isn't all that important. YMMV. You can drop 3 ranks from Rallying Roar to pick up Fellowship of the Song if you prefer.

    Leader of Men - 11 Ranks (22 Points)
    • Situational Awareness (T1 - 1/5)
    • Steeled Resolve (T1 - 4/4)
    • Call Them Out (T2 - 5/5)
    • In Harm's Way (T3 - 1/3)


    Call Them Out isn't that useful, but the alternatives are not that great. I like Max Morale better than Evade in a healing build, because some of the Captain healing skills like Words of Courage, Gallant Display, and Reform the Lines! cost morale to use.
    I created a full Healing build that didn't have IHW, but I haven't actually used it. So I think I won't post it, unless there's a lot of demand. It's kind of obvious anyway. There are some LtC traits (the bleed ones mostly) that I don't bother putting in my builds, but HoH is different. Almost everything in the line can be used in a normal healing situation, where the bleed traits from LtC are more situational. The two things I see myself always leaving out of healer builds are Fellowship of the Song and Bolstered Resolve (the shield trait).

    Ok. I have a tank build to share, but I'm going to click submit now and add it back later. Three reasons: 1) I haven't experimented as much there; 2) tank traits, like healing traits, are IMO fairly straightforward; 3) I think people are going to be more curious about and reassured by the builds above, which reflect pretty closely the kinds of things we've been doing on Live for the last umpteen years.
    Last edited by furtim; Nov 05 2013 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Formatting, formatting, always fixing my formatting.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  2. #2
    I tried to get my build as close to how it was for RoR, just because I loved buffing more than anything while still being able to get some good heals in.

    I spec'd Red, Lead the Charge, with a lot of points in the HoH line.

    Starting with the Red spec:
    Grants Skill Shadow's Lament
    Critical hits buff the damage of your next attack
    Sure Strike procs Relentless Attack when used in a Battle-readied state

    Set Bonuses of note for me

    Tier 1 (5 Ranks): Readied Blade (Shadow's Lament grants a Battle-readied state)
    Tier 5 (25 Ranks): Blade-brother's Call (Grants Skill Blade-Brother's Call)
    Tier 6 (30 Ranks): Blessing of the Blade (Captain gains the full benefits of the Blade-brother skills and buffs)
    Tier 7 (35 Ranks): Master of War (In particular: Banner of War provides a stacking Critical Rating buff to nearby Fellowship members whenever they use a skill)

    Red Line Traits
    Tier 1
    3 ranks in React to Battle (Increased Damage of Devastating Blow, Pressing Attack, Light of Elendil and Routing Cry[+10%] & +5% Crit chance for these skills)

    3 ranks in Deafening Shouts (Increased Light Skill Damage [+6%])

    3 ranks in Martial Prowess (Increased Melee Damage [+3%])

    Tier 2
    1 rank in Telling Mark (Grants Telling Mark)

    Tier 3
    3 ranks in Penetrating Cry (Routing Cry with Defeat Event boosts Fellowship Attack Speed [-15%] for 1 min)

    3 ranks in Arterial Strikes (Increased Melee Critical Chance [+3%])

    1 rank in Time of Need (Grants Time of Need)

    Tier 4
    3 ranks in Restraint (Reduced melee skill power cost [-10%])

    Tier 5
    5 ranks in Standard of War (Grants Skill Standard of War. Ranks increase Standard damage [+20%] and damage buff [+10%])

    Tier 6
    3 ranks in Fellowship of the Blade (Percentage of Shield-brother buffs apply to entire Fellowship [+60%])

    Blue Line Traits
    Tier 1
    2 ranks (4 pts) in Reversal (Increased Melee Damage on Critical Events [+6%])

    3 ranks (6 pts) in Skilled Hands (Extra Tactical Damage and Outgoing Healing [+3%])

    Tier 2
    1 rank (2 pts) in Revealing Mark (Grants Revealing Mark)

    4 ranks (8 pts) in Dignified Spectalce (Increased Melee and Tactical Damage and Outgoing Healing [+4%])

    Tier 3
    1 rank (2 pts) in Lifting Words (Increased Words of Courage Healing [+3%])

    1 rank (2 pts) in Gallant Display (Grants Gallant Display)

    3 ranks (6 pts) in Rousing Cry (Rallying Cry with Defeat Event boosts Fellowship damage [+5%] for 1 min)

    Tier 4
    3 ranks (6 pts) in Relentless Optimism (Increased AOE healing [+15%])

    I wanted to spec red to give the group Relentless Attack, which now gives +1030 crit and +3434 physical mastery, which benefits 4-5 people in your average group.
    Using Sure Strike right after your Battle Shout procs the buff, and the buff always lasts longer (30s) than the cd for your Shout (20s), so you can keep this buff up indefinitely, and go about your normaly rotation since the buff doesn't consume your Battle-readied event. Missed using Sure Strike first? Shadow's Lament is only a 20s cd and grants Battle-readied with the Red spec.

    Blade-brother's Call was the best call skill in my mind since you don't need to crit or be hit to give the other a bonus, and it climbs to +20% damage at its max, which is quite potent for any dpser. With Fellowship of the Blade, all your fellows get to taste this buff, along with To Arms affecting all, which has remained a great skill. You also don't need to crit to get the Crit Rating buff (+5% max) from Standard of War, just keep attacking while it's active for the 30 seconds. That along with the +15% damage the standard grants when it's fully traited. The Rallying Cry and Routing Cry boosts when traited are great too, either +5% damage or -15% attack speed, and I get to choose with my setup. They last 1 min each, so it's easy to refresh within that time period.

    I wanted to go up to the Relentless Optimism in the Blue line to make sure I was still getting a lot of heals on the Rallying Cry, and you still have a few other nice skills like Inspire and Gallant Display that help heal your buddies up. Keeps the healing potency very good without sacrificing too many buffing options.

    Thanks so much to Belnavar for posting the traits so I could include their descriptions

  3. #3
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    Yeah, I <3 Blade-Brother's Call. It's +20% damage for ~20s when fully stacked, and it stacks pretty quickly.

    The other Calls don't inspire me as much, because they're either weirdly situational (Song-Call) or not that interesting (Shield-Call).
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  4. #4
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    Thanks for starting this thread. Hopefully it will serve as a good demonstration of choices which the new system can offer. For example, I use a slightly different build for soloing: instead of spending points in the HoH tree (only Reversal is useful there for me) I prefer to get extra 10% Bleed Damage and stun for the Routing Cry from the LoM tree. I love the AoE interrupt effect of this stun in my present build and this was the first thing I tried (successfully) to reproduce in Beta.

    Noble Mark is indeed good for pulling, but in most cases I can do fine with the throwing daggers.
    Ishtarien - Captain
    Ishtarel - Hunter / Lunasa - Minstrel
    Ishtaridas - LRM 105 / Ishtari - RNK 105 / Ishti - BRG 105 / Cabernetta - GRD 105 / Medovinus - BRN 105
    The Mellowship || Eldar -> Evernight

  5. #5
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    I've been poking around with an all in LtC DPS build, but ran into some interesting issues...

    Is it really woth it to sink 20 points into LoM for the bleed damage?

    Should I incest the 4 points into HoH for the T1 damage boost?

    Is FB worth sacrificing for the extra personal DPS?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  6. #6
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    I guess the answer will depend on the player and the exact task he is trying to perform. For me and my goals (soloing various instances) the possibility to stun/interrupt enemies is much more important than a few % of direct damage which I would lose by ignoring some traits in the LtC tree. For some tougher pulls a LoM spec with nearly all points spent in LtC also worked great for me, but most likely other players will find other interesting options.

    For grouping I am looking at something similar to the second and third builds presented by Furtim. Unless I will be tanking which I hope to do a lot.
    Ishtarien - Captain
    Ishtarel - Hunter / Lunasa - Minstrel
    Ishtaridas - LRM 105 / Ishtari - RNK 105 / Ishti - BRG 105 / Cabernetta - GRD 105 / Medovinus - BRN 105
    The Mellowship || Eldar -> Evernight

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Is it really woth it to sink 20 points into LoM for the bleed damage?
    If you ignore the power cost trait (Restraint), you should have enough points by level ~87 or so to get everything else in LtC plus the ten points of LoM. It also improves your Morale or Evade along the way, so that's something.

    But...

    Should I incest the 4 points into HoH for the T1 damage boost?
    I actually really like dipping into HoH for my damage builds. Feels a bit more like the classic Captain style. The first three tiers are also pretty well-designed for poaching in a damage build.

    As in the LtC-Group build from my post, I like to grab the Gallant Display skill as well. It's a nice little maintenance heal (for your allies, at least) attached to a melee skill that starts out with better damage than Sure Strike and then gains a tiering buff to both its damage and healing. Use it in your rotation instead of Sure Strike if people are hurt.

    Is FB worth sacrificing for the extra personal DPS?
    Fellowship-Brother? I'd only avoid those traits on solo builds or HoH main-healers. It's too good otherwise. Even the Song-Brother version, which gets very from giving To Arms! to the group, has the PoT+HoT from Inspire, which is nice both for background healing and for power sustain in "marathon" instances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunasa View Post
    For grouping I am looking at something similar to the second and third builds presented by Furtim. Unless I will be tanking which I hope to do a lot.
    Me, too. I've been busy with other stuff since Beta 6 landed, but with our survivability where it is and with threat tuned up for the Epic Battles, I'm curious to see what Captanks will be able to do in real fights now.

    Also, LoM seems to have the least "dead weight", apart from arguably LtC. Turning Point (Incoming Healing on DEs) and Stand Tall (cooldown reduction for Last Stand) are the only ones I can see myself giving up while in tank mode, but they're both still pretty appealing traits.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  8. #8
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    My red build is fairly standard; to maximize dps full red/ some blue is needed.

    I think my tests on a healing build are more interesting:

    1. Defence build (60 points)

    Because I like to save the day in extreme conditions (e.g. when main healing a 12 man ettenmoors raid or main healing a skirmish raid), it is no surprise that I chose the trait line where the tools are that REALLY save people: yellow. If you imagine following situation: *hunter/ minstrel/whatever takes severe damage and will most likely die in 2 seconds* I simply can´t see the use of HoH here (though I have always been an ardent HoH fan).

    Therefore:
    Leader of men

    T1 Situational Awareness (5/5) Steeled resolve (4/4)

    T2 Strong voice (1/1)

    T3 Terrifying bellow (1/3) Shrug blows aside (5/5) In Harm´s Way (3/3) Demand attention (1/1)

    T4 Absorb momentum (5/5)

    T5 Standard of Valor (1/5) Strength in numbers (1/1)

    T6 Fellowship of the shield (3/3) Stand Tall (1/3)

    T7 Shield of the Dunedain (1/1)


    Hands of Healing

    T1 Reversal (2/2) Skilled Hands (3/3)

    T2 Revealing Mark (1/1) Dignified Spectacle (4/4)

    T3 Gallant Display (1/1) Rousing Cry (3/3)



    With such a build, you have multiple choices how to deal with the situation of the near- dying fellowship member - you can force taunt the mobs around him/ her, bubble her with in Harm´s Way and/ or shield of the dunedain, put on him/ her the shield brother....

    Note that the blue traits could be substituted for red ones if you think that telling mark, penetrating cry, and time of need better fit your playstyle. I did select blue because it was better for healing and with the idea that there is a "damage group" in the raid where the other captain will concentrate on buffing damage including telling mark while you are in the "tank" group.

    Further note that your group "only" loses 5% attack speed and the telling mark compared to a blue classic hybrid captain build (as much blue as you can while keeping telling mark, In Harm´s Way, and Demand Attention) . Though the hybrid build *feels* more fluent I fear the "defence build" is better, as you are a better healer AND tank.
    Last edited by Benthragand; Nov 11 2013 at 10:28 AM.
    The hands of a healer are the hands of a king.

  9. #9
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    I just had a flashback of "other games" and the trash talk of bashing other people's builds.

    I hope we don't go there and I hope there aren't go-to builds.

    I have nothing of value to share here; carry on


    I have to get my hands on this stuff for it to make sense. the words are sinking in.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    I just had a flashback of "other games" and the trash talk of bashing other people's builds.

    I hope we don't go there and I hope there aren't go-to builds.
    The fact that people are bothering to create different builds instead of trying to find "the best build" tells me we should be fine.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    The fact that people are bothering to create different builds instead of trying to find "the best build" tells me we should be fine.
    For some reasona room of monkeys on typewriters spring to mind.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  12. #12
    Going Main LoM with LTC hybrid myself, mostly a moors Cappy.

    In LoM

    (5) Situation Awareness (33% Chance to apply a 10s Evade buff [+1-5%] to Devastating Blow, Pressing Attack, Light of Elendil, and Routing Cry)
    (4) Steeled Resolve (Increased morale [+1-4%])
    (5) Call Them Out (Increased Bleed Damage [+2-10%])
    (1) Noble Mark (Grants Skill Noble Mark)
    (3) Terrifying Below (Routing Cry stuns enemies when used with a Defeat Event. Ranks increase duration of stun [+1-3s])
    (5) Shrug Blows Aside (Increased Critical Defence [+1-5%])
    (3) In Harm's Way (Grants Skill In Harm's Way. Additional ranks decrease incoming damage while skill is active [-10-20%])(5) Turning Point (Increased Incoming Healing with a Defeat Event [+1-5%])
    (5) Absorb Momentum (Increased Block with a 2-hander [+1-5%])
    (1) Standard of Valour (Grants Skill Standard of Valour. Ranks increase Standard damage [+4-20%] and Incoming Healing buff [+2-10%])
    (1) Strength in Numbers (Grants Skill Strength in Numbers)
    (3) Stand Tall (Being hit reduces the active cooldown of Last Stand [-1-3s])
    (1) Shield of the Dúnedain (Grants Skill Shield of the Dúnedain)

    Total Points - 37

    In LtC

    (3) React to Battle (Increased Damage of Devastating Blow, Pressing Attack, Light of Elendil and Routing Cry[+3-10%]. Rank 3 +5% Crit chance for these skills)
    (3) Martial Prowess (Increased Melee Damage [+1-3%])
    (1) Telling Mark (Grants Skill Telling Mark)
    (5) Make Them Bleed (Increased Bleed Damage [+4-20%])
    (1) Time of Need (Grants Skill Time of Need)

    Total points - 14

    My points may be a bit off, I haven't tested it since the pvp event. The self bubble mixed with strength in numbers, the 2H block and the routing cry stuns will be amazing in pvmp situations when I'm focused. Damage will come mostly from bleeds and crits, and hold them down with time of need + routing cry stuns. I plan to really buff up on BPE gear stats and LIs specifically for this build.
    Last edited by Anabraxas; Nov 14 2013 at 10:55 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Nice LoM build. I don't do Moors, so I can't say whether it'll be effective there. Looks like you've got a good mix of survival buffs and bleed damage, though.

    BTW, just wanted to comment on the fact that I still haven't posted an LoM tank build. The reason for this is that my tank build advice is basically going to be: take everything in the yellow line and then whatever you like from red or blue. Apart from maybe the +Incoming Healing on Defeat Events, LoM basically has no dead traits -- at least not if you're trying to play a main tank rather than an off-tank. Maybe I'll post a suggested off-tank build when HD lands, but it'd probably look really similar to Anabraxas' Moors build.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

 

 

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