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  1. #26
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    Burgs also get auto-stealth on a defeat response (Coupe de Grace)

    This may be why Warg CDs were reduced again

  2. #27
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    Can cloaks, jewelry, armor, pocket items be swapped in combat?

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAKHBANE View Post
    Burgs also get auto-stealth on a defeat response (Coupe de Grace)

    This may be why Warg CDs were reduced again
    Oh. I see.

    Well on second though, I agree with that change, although I wish that neither got extra stealth skills. Oh well.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAKHBANE View Post
    Can cloaks, jewelry, armor, pocket items be swapped in combat?
    No. just LIs
    argio r11 burglar | trytofarmme r10 reaver | trytoloveme r10 spider | ikissedafreep r10 blackarrow | roargh r9 warleader | trytocatchme r9 warg |

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    Oh. I see.

    Well on second though, I agree with that change, although I wish that neither got extra stealth skills. Oh well.
    If my understanding on damage increases freepside is correct wargs are going to need these cooldowns. Remember after ROI getting blown up in 3 moves or less (think back to Carli's epic conclusions)?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Couple of questions for those who actually were in beta, id prefer the player council/mouth pieces for turbine refrain from replying, thanks in advance.
    I realise you asked me not to reply to your post, but I can answer some of your questions. Please feel free to disregard this post if someone you would rather get a reply from answers your questions.

    2. The new creep damage type, will itneed to be traited ?(as an example shadow fang has to be traited on a warg to get shadow damage)
    No, the new damage type does not require a trait to use as it replaces common damage as the standard damage type for creeps. For example, wargs will deal Fell-wrought damage unless they use the Shadow Fang trait to change their damage type to shadow.

    3. Please elaborate on the 6 corruptions and diminishing returns
    Ratings based corruptions all have a 3-set bonus hat provides a boost to the relevant stat. In some cases this boost is the equivalent to two corruptions. In some cases this means that slotting more than three or four corruptions runs into diminishing returns and doesn't give the player as much return on their investment, so to speak, as they get when slotting the first three or so. For example, slotting four critical boost corruptions puts my warg at the cap for both critical and devastating critical chance along with a 38.2% increase to critical hit damage. Slotting the remaining two critical hit boost corruptions only increases the critical hit magnitude to 42.9%. That's an increase of 4.7 percentage points from the last two corruptions compared with an increase of 17.9 percentage points from the first three.

    I am not sure how the other corruption sets fare (Bullroarer is currently down), but certainly the critical hit boost corruptions stick out as an example of the diminishing returns issue.

    5. Please elaborate on specific skill cool downs for all creeps. For example most of us know that MT has its CD cut dramatically. I've heard whispers of "on your feet" having its CD cut dramatically.
    I will comment on the warg since that is the creep class I am most familiar with.

    Most warg skills have received a reduction to their cooldowns. The following is a list of the skills that have had their cooldowns reduced as of the current beta build.

    Eye Rake - previous cooldown: 15 sec new cooldown: 8 sec
    Dire Howl/Howl from the Shadow/Howl of Aggression- previous cooldown: 5 min new cooldown: 1 min
    Disappear/Topple - previous cooldown 5 min new cooldown: 3 min
    Flea Bitten - previous cooldown: 45 sec new cooldown: 25 sec
    Frenzy - previous cooldown: 1 min 30 sec new cooldown: 40 sec
    Howl of Unnerving - previous cooldown: 1 min new cooldown: 20 sec
    Pack Hunters/Shadow Pack.Pack Flayers - previous cooldown: 30 sec new cooldown: 15 sec
    Piercing Claws - previous cooldown: 20 sec new cooldown: 10 sec
    Rabid Bite - previous cooldown: 20 sec new cooldown: 10 sec
    Rallying Howl - previous cooldown: 30 sec new cooldown: 15 sec
    Scratch and Snip - previous cooldown: 30 sec new cooldown: 15 sec
    Sprint - previous cooldown: 5 min new cooldown: 3 min
    Snap/Snap! - previous cooldown: 1 min new cooldown: 25 sec
    Swipe - previous cooldown: 20 sec new cooldown: 10 sec
    Tendon Shred - previous cooldown: 5 min new cooldown: 3 min
    Throat Rip/Muscle Tear - previous cooldown: 1 min new cooldown: 20 sec

    In addition to the above the following traits have been modified:

    Enhanced Skill: Disappear - now reduces the cooldown of Disappear/Topple by 90 sec
    Enhanced Skill: Sprint - now reduces the cooldown of Sprint by 90 sec
    Last edited by MrWarg; Nov 05 2013 at 01:57 PM.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    If my understanding on damage increases freepside is correct wargs are going to need these cooldowns. Remember after ROI getting blown up in 3 moves or less (think back to Carli's epic conclusions)?
    I think this is one where they've not even begun to look properly at balancing the damage (or healing) for pve yet. From some dev comments, I'd suggest that the current numbers may not yet be 'set'. Past experience suggests that there will be extensive tampering as this expansion goes on and creepside will tag along at some stage after that.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    If my understanding on damage increases freepside is correct wargs are going to need these cooldowns. Remember after ROI getting blown up in 3 moves or less (think back to Carli's epic conclusions)?
    I had forgotten about the DPS increases on freepside....dang...and yes, I remember those evil times.

    On a third and final thought, I support these changes wholeheartedly.
    Last edited by Selebrimbor; Nov 05 2013 at 02:26 PM. Reason: Grammatical Incorrectness
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  9. #34
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    I hope that nobody will even pretend to be surprised if an imbalanced, buggy as hell and cheaply-made expansion makes it to live.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAKHBANE View Post
    Burgs also get auto-stealth on a defeat response (Coupe de Grace)

    This may be why Warg CDs were reduced again
    The Coup de Grace ability is the red tree legendary capstone trait. It is an attack skill that places a mark on a target and if the targeted is defeated whilst the mark is active the Burglar is automatically placed in stealth for 5 sec. Coup de Grace has a cooldown of 1 min.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    The Coup de Grace ability is the red tree legendary capstone trait. It is an attack skill that places a mark on a target and if the targeted is defeated whilst the mark is active the Burglar is automatically placed in stealth for 5 sec. Coup de Grace has a cooldown of 1 min.
    Oh, from all the comments I started to think burgs could enter Stealth after every kill xD This sounds decent. Does it work with Spider pets?
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheling View Post
    I think this is one where they've not even begun to look properly at balancing the damage (or healing) for pve yet. From some dev comments, I'd suggest that the current numbers may not yet be 'set'. Past experience suggests that there will be extensive tampering as this expansion goes on and creepside will tag along at some stage after that.
    Well, id hope the numbers aren't set because its my understanding from speaking to a tester or two that creep healing hasn't been scaled, at last beta. It certainly can be changed but it merited the question being asked. Sadly we don't have a great track record of fixing things later on.... I understand clearly the intent and focus of this expansion, I get it, its a freep revamp and a new "big battle" system. For the minority of us in LOTRO who do PvP, if creep heals aren't scaled and or something addressed about the DPS you'll see more people leave. Of course, you'll always have the valiant few who continue on and cry through the pain but this dosent bode well for PvP overall. Ive freeped more in the last few months and well, creeps need more.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Well, id hope the numbers aren't set because its my understanding from speaking to a tester or two that creep healing hasn't been scaled, at last beta. It certainly can be changed but it merited the question being asked. Sadly we don't have a great track record of fixing things later on.... I understand clearly the intent and focus of this expansion, I get it, its a freep revamp and a new "big battle" system. For the minority of us in LOTRO who do PvP, if creep heals aren't scaled and or something addressed about the DPS you'll see more people leave. Of course, you'll always have the valiant few who continue on and cry through the pain but this dosent bode well for PvP overall. Ive freeped more in the last few months and well, creeps need more.
    Creep healing needs a boost not only in terms of potency, but also in terms of utility.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    Creep healing needs a boost not only in terms of potency, but also in terms of utility.
    Yay! A council member who speaks logic.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Well, id hope the numbers aren't set because its my understanding from speaking to a tester or two that creep healing hasn't been scaled, at last beta. It certainly can be changed but it merited the question being asked. Sadly we don't have a great track record of fixing things later on.... I understand clearly the intent and focus of this expansion, I get it, its a freep revamp and a new "big battle" system. For the minority of us in LOTRO who do PvP, if creep heals aren't scaled and or something addressed about the DPS you'll see more people leave. Of course, you'll always have the valiant few who continue on and cry through the pain but this dosent bode well for PvP overall. Ive freeped more in the last few months and well, creeps need more.
    As an r12 weaver and r9 reaver on Vilya, I expressed similar thoughts in the beta pvmp feedback thread. It can and might cut both ways this time. Neither would be good if allowed to linger.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squelcher View Post
    Yay! A council member who speaks logic.
    Well it is just common sense really. I won't pretend to be an expert on Defilers or Warleaders, but what I do know is that they need more flexibility and utility in terms of how they heal. In practical terms that means looking at issues such as the length of inductions, healing whilst moving, HoT pulses, and so on.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheling View Post
    As an r12 weaver and r9 reaver on Vilya, I expressed similar thoughts in the beta pvmp feedback thread. It can and might cut both ways this time. Neither would be good if allowed to linger.
    The dumbing down of the game has been steady, everyone gets points, everyone can get symbols at camps, youre never really threatened in PVE on a freep and the instances are simplistic at best compared to what we used to get (OD, the rift, and ToO). So the one challenging part of the game left is PvP and even that is basically who has superior numbers. So for some of us, we are left with the hope that we get a decent balanced RvR in the moors. Personally that's the best part of the game for me, each side gets kills, youre challenged to comprise your groups with good balance based on toon specs. if freep dps is as high as has been talked about its going to be a bigger faceroll then it already is. For what? So some hunter can kite a 150K boss in big battles where he isn't going to loose regardless of how ####ty he is? I just hoped that they kept PvP reasonable for those of us who want the hope of a challenge. Im by no means the best, im average, some nights above some below but I play both sides in the moors on different servers. You make the DPS silly for freeps without scaling creep heals dramatically and its going to be disaster. So far im not reading anything that speaks to the new freep DPS and the impact it will have on the moors, I am hearing things like "they'll tweek it later". #### that.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrWarg View Post
    Well it is just common sense really.
    Which most Turbine-associated people seem not to possess.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    The dumbing down of the game has been steady, everyone gets points, everyone can get symbols at camps, youre never really threatened in PVE on a freep and the instances are simplistic at best compared to what we used to get (OD, the rift, and ToO). So the one challenging part of the game left is PvP and even that is basically who has superior numbers. So for some of us, we are left with the hope that we get a decent balanced RvR in the moors. Personally that's the best part of the game for me, each side gets kills, youre challenged to comprise your groups with good balance based on toon specs. if freep dps is as high as has been talked about its going to be a bigger faceroll then it already is. For what? So some hunter can kite a 150K boss in big battles where he isn't going to loose regardless of how ####ty he is? I just hoped that they kept PvP reasonable for those of us who want the hope of a challenge. Im by no means the best, im average, some nights above some below but I play both sides in the moors on different servers. You make the DPS silly for freeps without scaling creep heals dramatically and its going to be disaster. So far im not reading anything that speaks to the new freep DPS and the impact it will have on the moors, I am hearing things like "they'll tweek it later". #### that.
    How do you balance creep heals before freep damage is actually set in stone?

    It's STILL being meddled with (freep damage).

    Yes, this is a **** sandwhich. That's what we get for getting our pvp fix on a pve game that had some random pvp element stitched together 2 weeks before launch.

    Long term, it should be easier to balance things with the freep changes in place, but don't imagine for a second that this won't be really really bad for the moors for a good bit of time post-launch. Could be a Moria-RoR situation where we just get to deal with it for 5 months (or more).
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    How do you balance creep heals before freep damage is actually set in stone?

    It's STILL being meddled with (freep damage).

    Yes, this is a **** sandwhich. That's what we get for getting our pvp fix on a pve game that had some random pvp element stitched together 2 weeks before launch.

    Long term, it should be easier to balance things with the freep changes in place, but don't imagine for a second that this won't be really really bad for the moors for a good bit of time post-launch. Could be a Moria-RoR situation where we just get to deal with it for 5 months (or more).
    Oh I agree (see bolded part) I still do GW2, I mean WvWvW puts lotro zergs to shame but ya fair enough. Part of the problem is the PvP was stitched together before launch 7 years ago. Here we are on the heels of another launch (7 years later)and guess what? Freep DPS will likely be OP again. You seeing a theme here? I am and I don't pay half as much attention as I used to. So they dumbed down the classes, who knows maybe minis wont be able to take 50K damage while self healing and out DPSing creep burst damage classes (they are still light armor right?) Maybe this is the expansion where we are set up for a better balanced experience, at the next expansion.... I don't know man, I do know what ive heard from pretty reliable sources, but maybe you were in beta? Hows those warden bleed ticks? LM wizards fire? (true it cant be potted?). 2 things that are tools to balance, creep morale and creep heals and its gotten better no question about it. Part of the reason its gotten better is the #### pve they spoon feed freep players does little to nothing to prep them for a craid. Have you run BFE? whats the other 3 man they did where you run up the mountain and have to kill the dourhands before they pop the eggs? I mean really, there dumbing it down to make it even easier for freeps (read the burg write ups). Now to reality, the reality is after the ROI cluster #### with no mits and uncapping of stats so freep dps went through the roof creeps were pissed. A lot left, more divested and what happened? we got major creep class rewrites. Why do we have to wait for 3-4 months after an expansion for a correction to an issue we can all see out of the gate? Is it really to much to ask to have a company who makes games to be able to do more then one aspect at a time?

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Oh I agree (see bolded part) I still do GW2, I mean WvWvW puts lotro zergs to shame but ya fair enough. Part of the problem is the PvP was stitched together before launch 7 years ago. Here we are on the heels of another launch (7 years later)and guess what? Freep DPS will likely be OP again. You seeing a theme here? I am and I don't pay half as much attention as I used to. So they dumbed down the classes, who knows maybe minis wont be able to take 50K damage while self healing and out DPSing creep burst damage classes (they are still light armor right?) Maybe this is the expansion where we are set up for a better balanced experience, at the next expansion.... I don't know man, I do know what ive heard from pretty reliable sources, but maybe you were in beta? Hows those warden bleed ticks? LM wizards fire? (true it cant be potted?). 2 things that are tools to balance, creep morale and creep heals and its gotten better no question about it. Part of the reason its gotten better is the #### pve they spoon feed freep players does little to nothing to prep them for a craid. Have you run BFE? whats the other 3 man they did where you run up the mountain and have to kill the dourhands before they pop the eggs? I mean really, there dumbing it down to make it even easier for freeps (read the burg write ups). Now to reality, the reality is after the ROI cluster #### with no mits and uncapping of stats so freep dps went through the roof creeps were pissed. A lot left, more divested and what happened? we got major creep class rewrites. Why do we have to wait for 3-4 months after an expansion for a correction to an issue we can all see out of the gate? Is it really to much to ask to have a company who makes games to be able to do more then one aspect at a time?
    For the record, i was in the beta (or should I say am, we did get a new build today).

    As we said in this thread, the developer (single) who worked on pvmp was also in charge of three freep classes (Burglar, Hunter, RK). So he already had his hands full. Kelsan, was moved over to the MOBA Infinity Crisis, where he happily gets to develop a PVP game rather than work on PVP for a PVE game. So Jinjaah has taken over the moors.

    They will be tuning and refining the freep changes until this goes live, and there's still likely to be some tweaks in 12.1. Can you blame them? This is a vital update for the game, the class system BADLY needed fixing and the survival of this game depends on getting this "right". I believe they have done as good a job as could be done, all things considered. I wouldn't call it "dumbed down" at all, really. There is more thought to actual skill play rotations, trade-offs and some very interesting mechanics.

    There are some warts, especially regarding things that effect pvmp... Slows have been inflated quite a bit with a lot more AOE as well. Healing debuffs are somewhat more common (for freeps) and we never really sorted everything out. The pvp testing was late in the process, and tainted due to bugs (Creep audacity was 2x as effective on copied over characters on the day of the test... giving quite a few of us 62% damage reduction). There are numerous problems with fast skills, and a nasty LM bug that was allowing for 1-shot kills on creeps as of the build before today (still waiting to see if this has been fixed). Yes, at this point if we get into launch without 1-shot kills and insta-kill macro exploits it will be a win (Turbine is only batting .500 in this department...)

    I think it's very safe to say that there will need to be significant work on creeps. Probably equal to or greater than the work done on Spiders and Wargs during RoI. It will be a mess at launch. In many ways it will be worse than live. But I would rather get a big update 6 months into this release than being close to balance at launch and UTTERLY ignored and broken after the first patch. (See: ROR)

    So there's that.
    Last edited by Sezneg; Nov 05 2013 at 11:08 PM.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    For the record, i was in the beta (or should I say am, we did get a new build today).

    As we said in this thread, the developer (single) who worked on pvmp was also in charge of three freep classes (Burglar, Hunter, RK). So he already had his hands full. Kelsan, was moved over to the MOBA Infinity Crisis, where he happily gets to develop a PVP game rather than work on PVP for a PVE game. So Jinjaah has taken over the moors.

    They will be tuning and refining the freep changes until this goes live, and there's still likely to be some tweaks in 12.1. Can you blame them? This is a vital update for the game, the class system BADLY needed fixing and the survival of this game depends on getting this "right". I believe they have done as good a job as could be done, all things considered. I wouldn't call it "dumbed down" at all, really. There is more thought to actual skill play rotations, trade-offs and some very interesting mechanics.

    There are some warts, especially regarding things that effect pvmp... Slows have been inflated quite a bit with a lot more AOE as well. Healing debuffs are somewhat more common (for freeps) and we never really sorted everything out. The pvp testing was late in the process, and tainted due to bugs (Creep audacity was 2x as effective on copied over characters on the day of the test... giving quite a few of us 62% damage reduction). There are numerous problems with fast skills, and a nasty LM bug that was allowing for 1-shot kills on creeps as of the build before today (still waiting to see if this has been fixed). Yes, at this point if we get into launch without 1-shot kills and insta-kill macro exploits it will be a win (Turbine is only batting .500 in this department...)

    I think it's very safe to say that there will need to be significant work on creeps. Probably equal to or greater than the work done on Spiders and Wargs during RoI. It will be a mess at launch. In many ways it will be worse than live. But I would rather get a big update 6 months into this release than being close to balance at launch and UTTERLY ignored and broken after the first patch. (See: ROR)

    So there's that.
    Indeed its a vital update, however I disagree the class system BADLY in need of fixing. Skill bloat is a valid argument, but within the current build system that could have been achieved. They chose trees, that's fine. My comments about dumbing it down is based on observation of the progression of the game and its play. You now have a point penalties if you want to have a hybrid toon. Essentially you cant do everything you did before but you can do less, better. That's dumbing it down to me, but I concede fully just because I feel that way dosent make it true. The macro exploit isn't going survive, people using that are going to be reported quick. However if it goes live I wont be surprised at all. Im not going to go on about it, those days are over for me but Im going to say this one more time. Freep DPS has and is the major problem in the moors. You now have a system that will make it even easier for players, in my view. This issue occurs over and over, with every new release. Creeps simply have to wait for a glance later on and the same tired arguments continue to be put out "PvP dosent have a high population of the player base" and "PvP was always an add on to the game, not a main feature". Perhaps my expectations are to high, I simply expect them, after several trials and errors to produce a complete expansion that updates across the board the entirety of the play styles within the entirety of the game. Other companies do it, I see no reason why Turbine cant.

  23. #48
    re:balance

    The Devs are still working on things and lots of changes can happen quickly before release. Typically the devs work on versions of the code that are several iterations beyond what the testers get to see in beta. So what we see is already "old news".

    We really don't want balance - in one sense. During one test, Creeps and Freeps stood toe to toe at GV and slugged it out for 2 hours. Nearly no one died except the noob toons rolled for the event. Both sides were nearly breathing in each others faces and the action did not die down until the end of the test. It was very "balanced".

    We need some un-balanced parts to make things interesting. This is what makes the strengths and weaknesses important. It's nice to have God Mode but when the other side has the same - not much is going to really happen.

    So, consider that some classes will have plus skills maybe OP ones, other classes will be weaker. Each side has strengths and weaknesses too. Freeps can switch up their trait trees in a moment of being out of combat, but creeps will get 12 slots and set bonuses to counter. Creeps can overcome the "strength" of a freep trying to switch up traits, by keeping them in combat, just like currently. New tactics will emerge as both sides learn the limits of their classes and groups/solo abilities.

    What we really want is variety not balance.
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  24. #49
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    Ok 5.1 blows for creeps.

    22k mins/hunters hitting so hard your dead before you blink.

    Moria is back

    g/l
    [color=green]"Freeps raid to get their skills and gear, then come out and complain about creeps raiding to get their skills...hypocrite much?"[/color]

  25. #50
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    shifting the balance a bit around sounds like fun.. dieing to try it out
    Flixxer - Hunter - Imladris - 100 R7 ---- Danielleth - Minstrel - Imladris - 22
    Zaireth - Rune-keeper - Imladris - 73 -- Ariannasophia - Warden - Imladris - 14
    Flixxer - Champion - Eldar - 54

 

 
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