PVMP Beta Discussion.

[MonkeyTamer]

re:balance

The Devs are still working on things and lots of changes can happen quickly before release. Typically the devs work on versions of the code that are several iterations beyond what the testers get to see in beta. So what we see is already "old news".

We really don't want balance - in one sense. During one test, Creeps and Freeps stood toe to toe at GV and slugged it out for 2 hours. Nearly no one died except the noob toons rolled for the event. Both sides were nearly breathing in each others faces and the action did not die down until the end of the test. It was very "balanced".

We need some un-balanced parts to make things interesting. This is what makes the strengths and weaknesses important. It's nice to have God Mode but when the other side has the same - not much is going to really happen.

So, consider that some classes will have plus skills maybe OP ones, other classes will be weaker. Each side has strengths and weaknesses too. Freeps can switch up their trait trees in a moment of being out of combat, but creeps will get 12 slots and set bonuses to counter. Creeps can overcome the "strength" of a freep trying to switch up traits, by keeping them in combat, just like currently. New tactics will emerge as both sides learn the limits of their classes and groups/solo abilities.

What we really want is variety not balance.

I really don't like the sounds of this. It does indicate a poor thought process in approach to PvP, I'll tell you why:

1. Having unbalanced parts doesn't make anything interesting, it just makes the game frustrating, that is why so many people are submitting complaints. We would like, generally, to have balance in capacity to deal out DPS and to give/receive heals. Different classes will have different skills and traits etc. But why should any have an over-all advantage over any other? So when I consider some classes having "plus skills maybe OP ones..." I am immediately reminded of the situation we have had for some time now.

2. On numerous occasions I have seen Freeps and Creeps fight at GV or Grams the way you describe and not so many toons get killed on some occasions (except over zealous lowbies). Because everyone usually backs away to get a heal when needed. Anyway, can you accurately tell us what the numbers were on each side, the classes, ranks etc? I'm guessing Freeps were out numbered and out gunned on this occasion. I am also guessing that your comment on this is not entirely reliable anyway, that's just going by your comments that I read compared to my broad observations and experiences with this sort of thing.

3. Why would we want weaker classes? Who's going to use them? Again, poor thinking toward PvP development. Every one class ought to have as much chance to win against any other class as any other class would (read that sentence again if you need to, it makes sense I promise). Although the way in which the different classes do that would vary. Variety is not imbalance. You really ought to be thinking "we want variety and no imbalance".


Hopefully I have put into good enough perspective my claim of Turbine's poor approach to PvP development. Maybe they cannot devide between the idea of what having variety is and what the problem of imbalance is.

I'll have to leave it there since it is late for me and I need some shut eye.

Before I go I would like to comment on the warg CD changes I see mentioned earlier. My thinking on that is we don't really need CD reductions, we need more access to DPS. We are a melee only class no ranged DPS. Hunters and RK's have tremendous DPS compared and they don't even have to let us touch them if they can avoid it. Keep the silly Disappear skill and give us that sort of DPS please. Give my warg what my champ has and I will never need it!!


Soulwarg R11 Crick.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

Adopt, adapt and improve. This should be interesting.

[Sezneg]

During one test, Creeps and Freeps stood toe to toe at GV and slugged it out for 2 hours. Nearly no one died except the noob toons rolled for the event. Both sides were nearly breathing in each others faces and the action did not die down until the end of the test. It was very "balanced".

Yeah... the audacity bug giving copied creeps 62% damage reduction instead of 30% may have had something to do with this...

Ok 5.1 blows for creeps.

22k mins/hunters hitting so hard your dead before you blink.

Moria is back

g/l

Pretty much this. They put in some freep damage adjustments and dps balancing. Everyone hits like a truck now. Hoping for some sort of stopgap creep boost to make this at least playable at launch.

[Equendil]

Even more dipsing and sprinting really ?

[Wilkor]

Even more dipsing and sprinting really ?

I agree, it's definitely a change for the worse. I would far rather wargs be able to faceroll freeps in 5 seconds flat. That would be much more fair.

[Equendil]

I agree, it's definitely a change for the worse. I would far rather wargs be able to faceroll freeps in 5 seconds flat. That would be much more fair.

It is a change for the worse yes, whether wargs are weak or OP. It's about the last thing they needed and escape-at-will only encourages lame behaviour. It was bad enough in the first place that the classes that got those were those who could pick their fights thanks to invisibility, but it really didn't have to be made worse and then worse *again*.

Desperate Flight was on a 3O minutes cooldown and it was nerfed, and that was the sensible thing to do.

[GrandCru]

Currently [B 5.1] a stalker starts with :

A Morale pool of 19468 vs 13196 Live
Claws doing 592 Fell-wrought damage vs 412 Common damage Live, that is with 0 Mastery and 45% bonus.
Critical Rating being 5498 (10.1/3.2) vs 4748 (9.7/3.1) Live
Finesse 2214 (5.5) vs 2080 (5.8) Live
Critical Defense 1200 (11.2) vs 1200 (12.4) Live
... BPE decreases of 0.5%, Physical Mitigation of 1.2%, Tactical Mitigation of 1.4/1.5%, Resistances of 0.1%


And log out time is at 10 sec...

[Wilkor]

Currently [B 5.1] a stalker starts with :

A Morale pool of 19468
Critical Defense 1200 (11.2)
... BPE decreases of 0.5%, Physical Mitigation of 1.2%, Tactical Mitigation of 1.4/1.5%, Resistances of 0.1%

So freeps will have more morale, more defense, more mitigations and 5 times the DPS, on top of everything else overpowered about them. And that's at the start of HD where it will only get worse. I'm not sure if there's a word that sums up how inept, incompetent and willfully useless Turbine are exactly but whatever it is, it's not flattering.

[spelunker]

And log out time is at 10 sec...

I'd almost forgotten about that little gem. The combat logging grief options are innumerable.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

So freeps will have more morale, more defense, more mitigations and 5 times the DPS, on top of everything else overpowered about them. And that's at the start of HD where it will only get worse. I'm not sure if there's a word that sums up how inept, incompetent and willfully useless Turbine are exactly but whatever it is, it's not flattering.

Turbine specifically stated they were only going to bandaid creeps with the xpac to see how the new freep changes went about. Then in the following update they would address creeps.

Yes, expect another Moria launch. It's time to separate the men from the boys and see where people's loyalties really lie in PvMP, as of course when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

I'd almost forgotten about that little gem. The combat logging grief options are innumerable.

Captains traiting last stand and using the legacy to increase its duration will be everywhere! But WL bubble combat logs are going to be so much easier now.


Cannot wait for this Xpac, bring the challenge!

[poxnoxious]

We need some un-balanced parts to make things interesting. This is what makes the strengths and weaknesses important. It's nice to have God Mode but when the other side has the same - not much is going to really happen.

So, consider that some classes will have plus skills maybe OP ones, other classes will be weaker. Each side has strengths and weaknesses too. Freeps can switch up their trait trees in a moment of being out of combat, but creeps will get 12 slots and set bonuses to counter. Creeps can overcome the "strength" of a freep trying to switch up traits, by keeping them in combat, just like currently. New tactics will emerge as both sides learn the limits of their classes and groups/solo abilities.

What we really want is variety not balance.

I'm going to assume you mean the sort of 'unbalance' where Class A eats Class B but Class B eats Class C whom in return eats Class A etc etc?

If you're actually talking about an entire class being generally OP and other classes being total underdogs in all and every situation(s)...well then, that's what we have now and it obviously is no good. Lolmasters comes to mind, others could be mentioned...

And log out time is at 10 sec...

....but why??? *sour-faced-effing-smiley*

Yeah... the audacity bug giving copied creeps 62% damage reduction instead of 30% may have had something to do with this...

Sounds like an easy permanent solution to the problem of the massive freed dps? At least it does to me, not in beta so what do I know..

[Glarviel]

And log out time is at 10 sec...

That is just a if you lazy to press exit now or just alt f4. I think you are still in game until that message "Waiting for logout to complete..." disappears. Speed at which people can log out will depend on server performance and how fast their computers are.

[stormshadowking]

I think some of you might have forgot that turbine did say they would have a separate update to balance freeps and creeps. Just thought id mention that.

Anyway like somebody said this will be a true test of loyalty! I for one will always play lotro. Yes the PVP might suck. Yes the npcs might be ezmode, but something about it is always fun for me. Maybe its the challenge, me throwing stuff at my pc, getting farmed, but hey, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

See you guys in the moors

[Squelcher]

I think some of you might have forgot that turbine did say they would have a separate update to balance freeps and creeps. Just thought id mention that.

It's funny that you could be naive enough to think that that update will actually bring any kind of balance. In the meantime while we wait for that, we just have to put up with even more of the usual rubbish.

[spelunker]

That is just a if you lazy to press exit now or just alt f4. I think you are still in game until that message "Waiting for logout to complete..." disappears. Speed at which people can log out will depend on server performance and how fast their computers are.

On live, if someone hits logout, exit, or alt+f4, you have 25 seconds to kill them before they go poof. In BETA, and presumably when HD goes live, you will have 10 seconds to do the same.

[Nouri]

Before I go I would like to comment on the warg CD changes I see mentioned earlier. My thinking on that is we don't really need CD reductions, we need more access to DPS. We are a melee only class no ranged DPS. Hunters and RK's have tremendous DPS compared and they don't even have to let us touch them if they can avoid it. Keep the silly Disappear skill and give us that sort of DPS please. Give my warg what my champ has and I will never need it!!


Soulwarg R11 Crick.

100% in agreement!

[Ugmo]

I think some of you might have forgot that turbine did say they would have a separate update to balance freeps and creeps. Just thought id mention that.

No, but some people are still waiting on the map Turbine said they would have....so you might be waiting a while on the update to balance anything.

[Ghosttaker]

Before I go I would like to comment on the warg CD changes I see mentioned earlier. My thinking on that is we don't really need CD reductions, we need more access to DPS. We are a melee only class no ranged DPS. Hunters and RK's have tremendous DPS compared and they don't even have to let us touch them if they can avoid it. Keep the silly Disappear skill and give us that sort of DPS please. Give my warg what my champ has and I will never need it!!


Soulwarg R11 Crick.

More dps might be part of the answer but it can't be the whole answer imo. There needs to be more in the way of survivability either increase a self heal, or mits, or something. More dps = the fight is over just as quick and maybe I have to heal an additional time or two? I survive with less morale? That's not fun pvp. Wargs need something else to make them beefier or able to withstand a beating so the fight lasts more than 3 seconds. Or better stated the Warg doesn't decide whether or not to hips in 3 seconds. A Warg pounces from stealth it should be a crapshoot whether you win that fight or not.

[sarefx]

Ok im gonna ignore all changes for right now, except one. WL rez being 1 minute. I mean as of right now its 5 mins, and in a big RvR fight 40 creeps v 24 freeps, with given usual bad lag. There is enough WL rezzes to never let CRAID wipe, plus map ins. So with HD skill reduced by 5 times, and lag will get worse, so it feels like no matter how bad creeps healing, will be or how good freep dps will be, craid wont wipe no matter what, and freeps eventually will wipe due to having very limited in combat rezzes. And dont get me started on cappies can rez out of combat because we all know how easy is for ONE creep to keep all cappies in perma combat. I guess thats only one thing that bothers me.

But Im looking forward to cappy new red line build, I heard its awesome for soloing in moors =D

[Gottapee]

But Im looking forward to cappy new red line build, I heard its awesome for soloing in moors =D

You poor soul...

[Moors-Battlemaster]

Ok im gonna ignore all changes for right now, except one. WL rez being 1 minute. I mean as of right now its 5 mins, and in a big RvR fight 40 creeps v 24 freeps, with given usual bad lag. There is enough WL rezzes to never let CRAID wipe, plus map ins. So with HD skill reduced by 5 times, and lag will get worse, so it feels like no matter how bad creeps healing, will be or how good freep dps will be, craid wont wipe no matter what, and freeps eventually will wipe due to having very limited in combat rezzes.

Sounds like a massive renown farm to me. Do you actually care about wiping after 30 deaths if you're gotten 100+ kills? With the state of freeps in HD, I doubt freeps will ever die to creep raids unless they are derps.

And dont get me started on cappies can rez out of combat because we all know how easy is for ONE creep to keep all cappies in perma combat. I guess thats only one thing that bothers me.

And captains have no cooldown on the rez, and are multiplying. You are also failing to take into account the dps difference. The effort to kill a freep > effort to kill a creep. Zero cooldown rezzes for captains and minstrels OOC is one of the worst PvP ideas Turbine has implemented. You think it's easy for ONE creep to keep all cappies in combat, come creepside and see how quickly the freep raid focuses you down, how skills don't interrupt due to lag and how you cannot possibly keep track of every captain without filling your screen with tooltips.

But Im looking forward to cappy new red line build, I heard its awesome for soloing in moors =D

I'll still crush you 1v1 like last time.

[Glohir]

Ok im gonna ignore all changes for right now, except one. WL rez being 1 minute. I mean as of right now its 5 mins, and in a big RvR fight 40 creeps v 24 freeps, with given usual bad lag. There is enough WL rezzes to never let CRAID wipe, plus map ins. So with HD skill reduced by 5 times, and lag will get worse, so it feels like no matter how bad creeps healing, will be or how good freep dps will be, craid wont wipe no matter what, and freeps eventually will wipe due to having very limited in combat rezzes. And dont get me started on cappies can rez out of combat because we all know how easy is for ONE creep to keep all cappies in perma combat. I guess thats only one thing that bothers me.

And that's because the server you play on is the most important server and all changes to creeps/freeps should be concidered while only looking at your server?

In Gilrain we have plenty evenings with full gramscamping and freeps outnumbering creeps by far. Not to mention the out of combat rezzes by minnies when they can sneak out of combat in a fight for a short amount of time. Besides, when a WL needs to use his revive, it means you already got some kills, so I think it would be rather fair if a craid of 40 with many incombat rezzes wouldn't die to a 24 fraid.. sounds to me like you can zerg enough renown and still are unhappy with it.

[sarefx]

I'll still crush you 1v1 like last time.

And for how many hours you will kite me this time? Dont get cocky since your class has utility to be barely ever get touched by a captain. And bring me next 1v1, I will stand behind a tree and see if you come in melee with me You are not bad spider, but no where to be decent =)

[sarefx]

And that's because the server you play on is the most important server and all changes to creeps/freeps should be concidered while only looking at your server?

In Gilrain we have plenty evenings with full gramscamping and freeps outnumbering creeps by far. Not to mention the out of combat rezzes by minnies when they can sneak out of combat in a fight for a short amount of time. Besides, when a WL needs to use his revive, it means you already got some kills, so I think it would be rather fair if a craid of 40 with many incombat rezzes wouldn't die to a 24 fraid.. sounds to me like you can zerg enough renown and still are unhappy with it.

Well true, might be just brandywine for right now. Anyways cant say much since we will never know until it comes live than we will see =)

[Moors-Battlemaster]

And for how many hours you will kite me this time? Dont get cocky since your class has utility to be barely ever get touched by a captain. And bring me next 1v1, I will stand behind a tree and see if you come in melee with me You are not bad spider, but no where to be decent =)

And thus you break the generalised 1v1 agreements, of not LoSing. You use everything and lost, good captains would win.

I challenge you to find a better spider. I understand the rage was strong with you in Teamspeak when you lost, for someone that 'never loses' due to using all cd's and heal procs lmao.