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  1. #976
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Just to clarify. Weapons are the ONLY things you can change out. You CANNOT change out armor, jewels, etc. I think you misread his post.. I dont remember shields exactly, but I think another poster said them too, and range, but NOT your class item.
    Whew! That's a relief! English isn't my native language so I must have got turned around somehow in the middle of his post. Thank you very much for clearing that up for me and saving me from needless worry!
    ;) “There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading to the same place, so it doesn’t matter which path you take. The only person wasting time is the one who runs around the mountain, telling everyone that his or her path is wrong.” ~ Hindu Proverb

  2. #977
    Quote Originally Posted by Silmelin View Post
    But what if you unequip your weapon and shield and forget about it? I do that all the time, and notice it as soon as I have entered combat and see that I have no sword

    And what about all those times I have forgotten to switch from the fishing rod? For some reason it just isn't as effective to fight the watcher in the water with a fishing rod instead of a sword and shield...



    I don't really mind it being impossible to switch from one equip to another during combat, but I think it should be possible to equip weapons if you aren't holding any at all.

    Otherwise I'll run the risk of dying after every concert I go to on Landroval :P
    i said weapons and shields just not much of anything else sorry my posting can be confusing sometimes

  3. #978
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Investing in the game I think should always be short term. Ie, pay enough to have fun for the month, or a three month period, or buy the expansion so that you have fun for half a year or so, etc. The only real investment in this game was the lifetime accounts, which so far have paid off well. Perhaps someone buying a chunk of TP on sale is investing but it doesn't make too much sense to stockpile them early; buy enough for the quest packs you're going to do in the short term.

    In any event, we haven't been investing for 6 years hoping to finally get a payout. We invested for 6 years and have gotten 6 years of payouts.
    This is true, we have been getting our payouts.

    I disagree about ownership. Even as a lifetime account holder, I don't believe I 'own' LotRO. I have a membership that enables me access to the features commensurate with my account level, for the period of time specified. Until such time as the game dies or I die. We don't 'own' the game in any traditional sense of the word. Turbine/WB owns it. They can change it at will. They can ban you from playing, regardless of how much money you've spent. They can raise prices, remove features and go F2P, and we have no say in it whatsoever. That is not ownership, that is membership. Hence it being called 'membership'.

    You can have a membership to a gym, that doesn't give you any say in how they run their business. If you show up drunk one day and start hitting other members, they can ban you even if you hold a lifetime membership. They make the rules, they call the shots.

    But I think discussions of ownership are tangential at best. Whether anyone owns anything, we still have our own daily choice of whether to continue with the game or not. That's a personal decision only the individual can make. If you really hate the expansion and the class changes, then no one's going to convince you to stay. And why would they? If you'd be happier elsewhere, then you need to do what's best for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gedachtnis View Post
    Added the Quickbar Guide to the Trait Tree Guide This also includes my current workaround to make the memory function work.
    My hope is that they're going to be able to come up with a fix for this problem before it goes live. If they don't they will have a world of drama on their hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    No distinction, no differentiation. Just more quantity. All our class development is reduced to a semi-fungible number. And this number gives me what? The ability to slot a capstone trait in one line and equip an additional skill I used to have available all the time?
    At the risk of repeating myself because I did say similar earlier (I know some people are bugged by that), the skills are NOT the same. People keep saying, "we lose skills, and then have to work to earn them back, so this is a rollback" and I totally disagree. It would be a rollback if we started out on the 18th with the same skills and traits, but fewer, and we were working on earning the same skills and traits back from the trees.

    In reality, we are starting out on the 18th with entirely different skills and traits, and working toward expanding access to a broader variety of skills and traits on the trees. Because the fact of the matter is, most of the skills and traits are either new or changed. What we start out with on the 18th may be fewer skills on our bar, but those skills are more potent and specialized. The traits supporting those skills are far more potent in most cases, and for the most part, entirely new or revamped. It's not a parallel. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

    As someone said earlier, if you're stuck on trying to rebuild your character to exactly what you have on live, then you're going to be frustrated. Because that system has gone the way of the dinosaur, and you're never going to be able to build the same character setup. Not ever. Some of the skills and traits are gone completely from the trees. So claiming that you have to do x or y to get back to where you are on live is just wholly and completely inaccurate. The fact is, there is nothing you can do to get back to where you are on live.

    So comparing the two systems as though they are the same is completely inaccurate. Saying you start out less powerful and have to work to get back to where you were is inaccurate. You start out with a new system that has different pluses and minuses to it, and you build your setup according to what your needs are, and what your options are within that system. The new, streamlined skills and traits may feel more limited, but they are more potent as well. Your character at 85 on the 18th will be as powerful, and in some cases more powerful, than on live right now. You can burn down orcs just as efficiently as you could before - in some cases more efficiently.

    As for the points/progression thing, I guess that's a matter of taste. I have a feeling people are going to be looking forward to their points. I myself will be. I will enjoy mucking about with different builds, trying out various hybrid options, swapping builds on the fly. As Turbine adds more expansions and adds to the trees, there will be more to look forward to in terms of skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    This whole system is unstable! What are they going to do when we get more points in the next expansion? Let us be more hybrid again? Not likely! They'll just reshuffle everything. The idea that this system will become a basis for future growth is all an illusion. It will never work.
    That remains to be seen. I think what's more likely is that they'll give us more 'hard choices' to make. They'll add a couple more skills and traits to the trees that are highly desirable, forcing us to trait deeper to get them. As for hybridization under the new system, I don't think a bit of hybridization will throw a wrench into things. Regardless of someone's build, Turbine still has a high degree of control over class balance with the new system vs the old. Hybridizing will not have a significant impact on that.

  4. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gedachtnis View Post
    This also includes my current workaround to make the memory function work.
    Ok.. I saw this earlier and forgot to ask until Frick brought it up again.. WHAT memory function workaround? Is Lotro crashing regularly with the new upgraded specs? Mine has been crashing for months when I minimize it, with a relatively high end machine, so I just make sure I log all the way out if I need to my desktop. Its a pain, but better than having to restart my computer every crash.

  5. #980
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    In reality, we are starting out on the 18th with entirely different skills and traits, and working toward expanding access to a broader variety of skills and traits on the trees. Because the fact of the matter is, most of the skills and traits are either new or changed. What we start out with on the 18th may be fewer skills on our bar, but those skills are more potent and specialized. The traits supporting those skills are far more potent in most cases, and for the most part, entirely new or revamped. It's not a parallel. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

    As someone said earlier, if you're stuck on trying to rebuild your character to exactly what you have on live, then you're going to be frustrated. Because that system has gone the way of the dinosaur, and you're never going to be able to build the same character setup. Not ever. Some of the skills and traits are gone completely from the trees. So claiming that you have to do x or y to get back to where you are on live is just wholly and completely inaccurate. The fact is, there is nothing you can do to get back to where you are on live.
    Which is Turbine's massive blunder, in my opinion. If they wanted to do this they should have created LotRO II, and left LotRO alone. Anyone with an IQ higher than 2 points below plant life knows that if you say to folks who have invested years in building their character *We are taking your character from you and you can't have him anymore." is going to anger a fair number of people. Angering the people you look to for your revenue is not a good business model, in my opinion.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  6. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Ok.. I saw this earlier and forgot to ask until Frick brought it up again.. WHAT memory function workaround? Is Lotro crashing regularly with the new upgraded specs? Mine has been crashing for months when I minimize it, with a relatively high end machine, so I just make sure I log all the way out if I need to my desktop. Its a pain, but better than having to restart my computer every crash.
    It's got nothing to do with the client crashing. There is currently a bug with the way skillbars remember placement of skills. There is a workaround, which was posted by Ged, but we're all hoping it will be fixed before HD goes live.

    Also, I recommend windowed mode to resolve your problem. I play windowed mode, with my window completely covering my screen except the taskbar. It makes switching around a LOT easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    Which is Turbine's massive blunder, in my opinion. If they wanted to do this they should have created LotRO II, and left LotRO alone. Anyone with an IQ higher than 2 points below plant life knows that if you say to folks who have invested years in building their character *We are taking your character from you and you can't have him anymore." is going to anger a fair number of people. Angering the people you look to for your revenue is not a good business model, in my opinion.
    They haven't taken away your character. That's just utterly and completely false. I really don't get some people's need to exaggerate to the point of absurdity like this.

    The ONLY thing that has changed is that skills and traits are a bit different. Streamlined, more powerful, but the characters still play pretty much the same for the most part. That is what's impressive about this system, if you ask me. They've narrowed things down, made them more powerful, all while ensuring that the classes will still be familiar enough that people will have a pretty easy time adapting to the new skills and traits. Most people will find the skills and traits similar enough that learning them won't be too much of a challenge.

    Will the changes anger some people? Clearly. But in a few months most of them will have adapted. Those who don't will move on, hopefully, to something that makes them happier.

  7. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    It's got nothing to do with the client crashing. There is currently a bug with the way skillbars remember placement of skills. There is a workaround, which was posted by Ged, but we're all hoping it will be fixed before HD goes live.

    Also, I recommend windowed mode to resolve your problem. I play windowed mode, with my window completely covering my screen except the taskbar. It makes switching around a LOT easier.



    They haven't taken away your character. That's just utterly and completely false. I really don't get some people's need to exaggerate to the point of absurdity like this.

    The ONLY thing that has changed is that skills and traits are a bit different. Streamlined, more powerful, but the characters still play pretty much the same for the most part. That is what's impressive about this system, if you ask me. They've narrowed things down, made them more powerful, all while ensuring that the classes will still be familiar enough that people will have a pretty easy time adapting to the new skills and traits. Most people will find the skills and traits similar enough that learning them won't be too much of a challenge.

    Will the changes anger some people? Clearly. But in a few months most of them will have adapted. Those who don't will move on, hopefully, to something that makes them happier.
    You said it yourself, now you want to crawfish? *You're never going to be able to build the same character setup* and *The fact is, there is nothing you can do to get back to where you are on live.*
    Play semantic games if you wish, but you can't have it both ways.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  8. #983
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    No distinction, no differentiation. Just more quantity. All our class development is reduced to a semi-fungible number. And this number gives me what? The ability to slot a capstone trait in one line and equip an additional skill I used to have available all the time?
    At the risk of repeating myself because I did say similar earlier (I know some people are bugged by that), the skills are NOT the same. People keep saying, "we lose skills, and then have to work to earn them back, so this is a rollback" and I totally disagree. It would be a rollback if we started out on the 18th with the same skills and traits, but fewer, and we were working on earning the same skills and traits back from the trees.

    In reality, we are starting out on the 18th with entirely different skills and traits, and working toward expanding access to a broader variety of skills and traits on the trees. Because the fact of the matter is, most of the skills and traits are either new or changed. What we start out with on the 18th may be fewer skills on our bar, but those skills are more potent and specialized. The traits supporting those skills are far more potent in most cases, and for the most part, entirely new or revamped. It's not a parallel. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
    But there are skills sitting there on the 2nd and 3rd tier of off spec trait trees that we used to have available in every spec, that we now need to spend extra points to slot. For example: the champion's Raging Blade or the captain's Revealing Mark.

    I do realize that some of our revamped skills are more potent. Shadow's Lament hits harder now. MOAR DPS! I wish the devs had thought of giving us more dps before blowing up the game's trait system and replacing it with this brick.

    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    As someone said earlier, if you're stuck on trying to rebuild your character to exactly what you have on live, then you're going to be frustrated. Because that system has gone the way of the dinosaur, and you're never going to be able to build the same character setup. Not ever. Some of the skills and traits are gone completely from the trees. So claiming that you have to do x or y to get back to where you are on live is just wholly and completely inaccurate. The fact is, there is nothing you can do to get back to where you are on live.
    Indeed, that much is obvious. That's one reason I don't like any of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    So comparing the two systems as though they are the same is completely inaccurate. Saying you start out less powerful and have to work to get back to where you were is inaccurate. You start out with a new system that has different pluses and minuses to it, and you build your setup according to what your needs are, and what your options are within that system. The new, streamlined skills and traits may feel more limited, but they are more potent as well. Your character at 85 on the 18th will be as powerful, and in some cases more powerful, than on live right now. You can burn down orcs just as efficiently as you could before - in some cases more efficiently.
    What exactly do you mean by more powerful? More dps when traited for dps, more heals when traited for heals? I don't want my character to be overpowered. I want the gameplay to be fun and for the content to have a reasonable level of challenge. Burning down orcs efficiently isn't what draws me to this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    As for the points/progression thing, I guess that's a matter of taste. I have a feeling people are going to be looking forward to their points. I myself will be. I will enjoy mucking about with different builds, trying out various hybrid options, swapping builds on the fly. As Turbine adds more expansions and adds to the trees, there will be more to look forward to in terms of skills.
    You can't argue taste.

    Myself, I find the trait tree itself to be both boring and frustrating. Boring because there really aren't many ways to customize a character with them, and they are strewn with insultingly lame traits such as 3 ranks of +1% melee damage, or 5 ranks of an evade buff that procs 33% of the time you use a skill. Frustrating because everything is gated behind layers of lameness. The whole thing is just so ugly, inelegant, unoriginal, and uninspired. This is the lowest common denominator. This is what you get when you let focus groups tell you what to design.

    I will not enjoy trying out various hybrid builds, because they are immediately obvious once you have spent a few minutes scrutinizing the trees. I will certainly not enjoy swapping builds on the fly. The developers will balance the content so this becomes required. It will become a chore.


    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    This whole system is unstable! What are they going to do when we get more points in the next expansion? Let us be more hybrid again? Not likely! They'll just reshuffle everything. The idea that this system will become a basis for future growth is all an illusion. It will never work.
    That remains to be seen. I think what's more likely is that they'll give us more 'hard choices' to make. They'll add a couple more skills and traits to the trees that are highly desirable, forcing us to trait deeper to get them. As for hybridization under the new system, I don't think a bit of hybridization will throw a wrench into things. Regardless of someone's build, Turbine still has a high degree of control over class balance with the new system vs the old. Hybridizing will not have a significant impact on that.
    None of us can predict what the developers plan to do in the future. But I am near certain that this system will be just as limiting as the previous system, and they will have no option but to blow up our character progression again.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  9. #984
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    It's got nothing to do with the client crashing. There is currently a bug with the way skillbars remember placement of skills. There is a workaround, which was posted by Ged, but we're all hoping it will be fixed before HD goes live.

    Also, I recommend windowed mode to resolve your problem. I play windowed mode, with my window completely covering my screen except the taskbar. It makes switching around a LOT easier.



    They haven't taken away your character. That's just utterly and completely false. I really don't get some people's need to exaggerate to the point of absurdity like this.

    The ONLY thing that has changed is that skills and traits are a bit different. Streamlined, more powerful, but the characters still play pretty much the same for the most part. That is what's impressive about this system, if you ask me. They've narrowed things down, made them more powerful, all while ensuring that the classes will still be familiar enough that people will have a pretty easy time adapting to the new skills and traits. Most people will find the skills and traits similar enough that learning them won't be too much of a challenge.

    Will the changes anger some people? Clearly. But in a few months most of them will have adapted. Those who don't will move on, hopefully, to something that makes them happier.


    My characters are all about their gameplay, and their gameplay has changed radically, therefore my characters have changed radically, and in my opinion and also lots of other peoples opinion that means they have gone.

    You have absolutely no say whatsoever in how I or anyone else decides to view these changes and how they effect us, if you like them that's great, but many people don't, and you have no right to suggest that we a, shouldn't. b,are incorrect or c, just get on with it.

    This desperate attempt from a few individuals to belittle/mock or argue with how feel is absurd, lets get one thing clear right now, you do not get to say how we are allowed to react to these changes.

    We get it, the game you adore is in trouble and its making you a little scared over its future and your response is to try to put out fires and argue over every single point including how individuals feel about these changes only goes to show just how wrong turbine have got this.
    Instead of stubbornly holding your stance and blindly challenging anyone who does not like what they see, why not try engaging the large amount of people that are unhappy with them? Because you are not going to change anyone's mind over this, and if all the people who say they are going to leave or stop spending money on this game, do, this game will suffer, no game can survive the player loss that seems may well happen, and the bad reviews are already starting to spread on the internet and it is still a closed beta, how do you think its gonna go when it goes live? Are you thinking there is going to be a massive u-turn on this? do you think all the negativity will magically disappear if you keep arguing with everyone who says they dislike the expansion? Its not gonna happen. maybe its time to put your own desires to one side and start thinking about the bigger picture here, otherwise you may well end up with everything you ever wanted from lotro, every single aspect suited to your wants and desires, only to find there isn't enough people around to fund it.
    Last edited by Isdring; Nov 09 2013 at 09:04 PM.

  10. #985
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    I have another question

    I remember reading quite a while ago that we not only had to "make difficult choices", but that there would also be beneficial to make that choice early. What happened with that? Was I reading too much into it? I thought it would mean that we would have to choose early if we wanted to for example heal or DPS and then stick with it, so I got worried, but it turned out it wasn't like that. So does that mean there is no important choice to make early or else you're going to lose out on something?
    ;) “There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading to the same place, so it doesn’t matter which path you take. The only person wasting time is the one who runs around the mountain, telling everyone that his or her path is wrong.” ~ Hindu Proverb

  11. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silmelin View Post
    I have another question

    I remember reading quite a while ago that we not only had to "make difficult choices", but that there would also be beneficial to make that choice early. What happened with that? Was I reading too much into it? I thought it would mean that we would have to choose early if we wanted to for example heal or DPS and then stick with it, so I got worried, but it turned out it wasn't like that. So does that mean there is no important choice to make early or else you're going to lose out on something?
    I think that could mean 2 things,

    When you first get to the trait tree the first thing you need to do is choose your specialization, so in that sense the hardest choice you make is then, what role am i going to spec in? where am I going to spend the majority or indeed all of my points?

    or it could mean

    deciding early on in your first tree whether you are going to try and max it and have no meaningful points left to do anything with, but be maxed in your chosen role, or, gimp your main role by not maxing a tree and therefore allowing you so hyrbidization.

    personally i think they meant the first option.

  12. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by Silmelin View Post
    I have another question

    I remember reading quite a while ago that we not only had to "make difficult choices", but that there would also be beneficial to make that choice early. What happened with that? Was I reading too much into it? I thought it would mean that we would have to choose early if we wanted to for example heal or DPS and then stick with it, so I got worried, but it turned out it wasn't like that. So does that mean there is no important choice to make early or else you're going to lose out on something?
    Think they were talking about pre-orders lol

    seriously I have no idea, since the trees = cookie cutter builds and out of combat hot swappable-ness. I think whatever statement you read was just PR spin. far as I can tell there is no penalty or bonus to enabling a skill/trait late or early ; other than not being available if not selected. Maybe it's a reminder to click the Apply button? lowest common denominator system = lowest common ability to utilize it, that's what this team appears to think about it's audience's competency.

  13. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silmelin View Post
    I have another question

    I remember reading quite a while ago that we not only had to "make difficult choices", but that there would also be beneficial to make that choice early. What happened with that? Was I reading too much into it? I thought it would mean that we would have to choose early if we wanted to for example heal or DPS and then stick with it, so I got worried, but it turned out it wasn't like that. So does that mean there is no important choice to make early or else you're going to lose out on something?
    Each trait line has either bonus traits or skills based on the line you've chosen. They can be found along the left side of the trees. The more points you spend, the farther down the list you can get. Oddly enough, you get those regardless of which tree you spend points in.

  14. #989
    Quote Originally Posted by Silmelin View Post
    I have another question

    I remember reading quite a while ago that we not only had to "make difficult choices", but that there would also be beneficial to make that choice early. What happened with that? Was I reading too much into it? I thought it would mean that we would have to choose early if we wanted to for example heal or DPS and then stick with it, so I got worried, but it turned out it wasn't like that. So does that mean there is no important choice to make early or else you're going to lose out on something?

    Your Specialization is the difficult choice, you get to select this when you get your first trait tree item open. Within the spec your point costs are 1 per rank. Outside the spec it's 2 points per rank.

    By selecting the "proper spec" for your level you can get points in that tree that will open up the bonus levels = requires 5 points per rank to open a bonus.

    Re-specing costs a lot and if you aren't watching the visible clues to what your current spec is, you can find yourself not getting to the bottom of even one tree because your spec is on another. 55 points won't buy the capstone if you put it all in the wrong tree from your spec.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  15. #990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    You said it yourself, now you want to crawfish? *You're never going to be able to build the same character setup* and *The fact is, there is nothing you can do to get back to where you are on live.*
    Play semantic games if you wish, but you can't have it both ways.
    Crawfish? I don't get what you mean by this. It must be a slang term I've never heard of.

    Yes, when it comes to the trait setup and skills, you will never have the identical setup. That is by design, since it's an entirely new system.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    I do realize that some of our revamped skills are more potent.
    There are new skills and traits as well, some of which are pretty nice. My point is, the two systems are different. The skills and traits are different. People keep comparing them as though they are parallel and they aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    You can't argue taste.
    Not sure what you mean by that. I'm not 'aruging' anything, simply pointing out that whether someone enjoys the sense of progression more with the old system than with the new is purely subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    Various comments
    I get that you're frustrated, and you have every right to be given the disparity between what you want and where things are headed, but I won't respond or engage in discussions with people who can't communicate in a civil way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silmelin View Post
    I remember reading quite a while ago that we not only had to "make difficult choices", but that there would also be beneficial to make that choice early. What happened with that? Was I reading too much into it? I thought it would mean that we would have to choose early if we wanted to for example heal or DPS and then stick with it, so I got worried, but it turned out it wasn't like that. So does that mean there is no important choice to make early or else you're going to lose out on something?
    My understanding of that statement wasn't that there would be a disadvantage in choosing the wrong thing, rather that there was a benefit to the new system enabling clear line choices early in the game. Choosing a role early in the game gives you a sense of role differentiation right from the start. For example, a hunter who chooses blue line gets the benefit of shooting on the move, and really gets to feel the benefits of that blue line much earlier in the game than before.

  16. #991
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    [QUOTE=frickinmuck;6992074
    I get that you're frustrated, and you have every right to be given the disparity between what you want and where things are headed, but I won't respond or engage in discussions with people who can't communicate in a civil way.
    [/QUOTE]

    Im not frustrated anymore that time passed a while back, I have left the game and moved on I am only here to make sure as many people as possible take a look at the expansion before parting with any cash.

    And if by civil you mean challenging and attacking anyone who dares to speak badly about this expansion then you need to rethink what civil is. You seem to be quite happy to respond without hesitation to anyone that offers up anything like a negative point yet never do so with any substance, and when people challenge you on things you dont like you just pretend it never happened and move on to someone else to attack and tell them their thoughts are wrong.

    Like this conversation, you were happy to keep challenging people about the metaphors but when the conversation turned back to the game again you went quiet.You say you would be more engaged if the conversation was about in game stuff,but because it you had talked yourself into a corner and had no answer you shy away. so please answer me this then regarding this topic, you claim with this new expansion there is never a situation where we do not have the tools for the job, where then are the tools for the jobs I have described below?

    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Here's another metaphor that got more and more absurd as it was stretched further. These points you make might be appropriate if the metaphor was a clear parallel to the situation in LotRO, but it's not. The reality is, we have a toolbox with appropriate tools, it's just that some people wish we had all the tools all the time. There is, in fact, never a scenario in-game where we have not got a tool that is appropriate to the task. There is never a situation in game where we have a tool that is as out of place for what we're presented with as a blowtorch at an ice rink. I wish I had more to add to this but we're getting so hypothetical now that it's become a meaningless discussion. If you were talking directly about actual situations regarding skills in-game, I would be more engaged in this discussion.
    ok lets talk skills in game then,

    I am a champ traited for dps in a raid , all is going well, until the tank crashes , no warning just stops tanking, the big nasty troll and his adds make for the minnie (or me) explain what tools I have to , grab aggro of that troll, stay alive and keep the raid going till the tank gets back?

    In game scenario 2

    I am on my rk again dpsing quite happily, this time our healer has a lapse in concentration and doesnt notice the big red square he is stood in and dies, explain what tools I have to step in keep the raid alive long enough until the minnie can be rezzed, healed back to full, rebuffed and got his bearings back enough to take back over and allow me to go back dpsing again?


    So to clarify your point, there USED to be no situation in game where we didnt have the correct tool in the bag, now after these changes the game is FULL of situations where we wont have the correct tool in the bag.

  17. #992
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Not sure what you mean by that. I'm not 'aruging' anything, simply pointing out that whether someone enjoys the sense of progression more with the old system than with the new is purely subjective.
    Right. I meant to agree that it would be pointless for me or anyone else to argue about a matter of taste.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  18. #993
    Quote Originally Posted by Silmelin View Post
    I have another question

    I remember reading quite a while ago that we not only had to "make difficult choices", but that there would also be beneficial to make that choice early. What happened with that? Was I reading too much into it? I thought it would mean that we would have to choose early if we wanted to for example heal or DPS and then stick with it, so I got worried, but it turned out it wasn't like that. So does that mean there is no important choice to make early or else you're going to lose out on something?
    You can only swap traits/builds out of combat. You need to make sure you're in the correct build for the battle ahead of time. There will be no more champs stepping in to tank in the last few seconds of the fight if the tank goes down, no more captains saving the group with IHW/LS, no RK's switching over to heal if the minstrel goes down and so on depending on how each class is traited before they go into the battle so there is your choose early, before the combat starts. How you go into the fight is how it's going to go, period. Basically something like this:


    Currently on live with my captain in a fellowship:

    Group Leader: "Okay captain, we have three very large angry Uruks to get through before the boss fight.

    I want you to put telling mark on the first Uruk, we'll burn him down about half-way then throw Oathbreakers on him to finish him off. Second Uruk I want revealing mark to help out the healer a bit to top us off. Loremaster is going to be busy debuffing and getting ready for adds, so throw songbrother on the healer to help with power. When the group is stabilized switch over to blade brother on the champ to help finish him off. If anyone goes down during this time pop a rez on them and make sure to get them buffed back up. If another goes down get another rez and buffs up, I want to save the minstrel rez for the third Uruk in case it gets the tank.

    Third Uruk is going to be tricky, he gets to 1/4 health he's going to hit the tank like a freight train, I want shield brother on him to help heal him up and protect him. Also there will be adds coming, if any get by and head for the healer help the champ pull them off and dump them near the tank. Keep those off heals, to arms, Oathbreakers as soon as they are up, Last Stand/In Harms Way in the last twenty seconds as well as insurance and anything else you got and we should pull through this just fine."

    Me: "Got it boss, not a problem."


    New way as it stands currently on beta:

    Group Leader: "Okay captain, we have three very large angry Uruks to get through before the boss fight.

    I want you to put telling mark on the first Uruk, we'll burn him down about half-way then throw Oathbreakers on him to finish him off. Second Uruk I want revealing mark to help out the healer a bit to top us off. Loremaster is going to be busy debuffing and getting ready for adds, so throw songbrother on the healer to help with power. When the group is stabilized switch over to blade brother on the champ to help finish him off. If anyone goes down during this time pop a rez on them and make sure to get them buffed back up. If another goes down get another rez and buffs up, I want to save the minstrel rez for the third Uruk in case it gets the tank.

    Third Uruk is going to be tricky, he gets to 1/4 health he's going to hit the tank like a freight train, I want shield brother on him to help heal him up and protect him. Also there will be adds coming, if any get by and head for the healer help the champ pull them off and dump them near the tank. Keep those off heals, to arms, Oathbreakers as soon as they are up, Last Stand/In Harms Way in the last twenty seconds as well as insurance and anything else you got and we should pull through this just fine."

    Me: "Sorry can't do but about a third of that."

    Group leader: "Seriously? *sigh*"

    Yes I know that this is a hypothetical battle, but I'm just trying to illustrate how restrictive the trees actually are. The support classes that thrive on hybrid builds and having ALL of their skills at their disposal to be able to pull the group back from the brink of a wipe are gone with the wind. I'll miss my captain (my main) the most and my loremaster second most as those are the classes that will be the hardest hit with these changes (burglar too but I don't really play that class in a group much if at all) with the skills being gated and the out of spec point penalty. Hybrid builds are a possibility true, but they are mere shadow of what we are capable of on live right now. All skills not available all the time and so on.


    Also something else to think about. We have currently lost about 35% of a thriving kinship (one of the oldest and well known on Arkenstone) over the past year/year and half. We used to do two runs during the week (mostly six man stuff), and Fri/Sat nights were the big twelve man runs a year ago. We now have to struggle to even get a three man going on a Fri/Sat night as the current member/officer base has dwindled so much. Last Friday night (one of our usually busiest nights we had a grand total of two officers and one member on) for example. We had fifteen officers just over a year ago, we are down to five now. The majority of our officers and members left because of RoR and said that they would not return (and they haven't), many of the remaining have stated that if Turbine does not get HD right they will leave as well.

    Why did they leave? Many, many different reasons. They did not like the direction Turbine was taking the game, they did not like the fact that so much of the game that needed attention never have, never will get that attention, lack of end game content, the sheer amount of grinding (yes I know grinding is part of the MMO world, but 47 days of dailies to rebuild a town, then additional x amount of days to get armor for your main and alts? Twenty-seven days of dailies to get reputation with the SECOND half of the reputation system in a small add on to the game? Come on, I don't mind grinding to get what I want but wow.), and many, many other things that you can easily find on the forums nowadays and that never seem to get addressed.

    Judging from the current changes and the direction that Turbine is going I fear that more will leave as well. Do I like the changes? No I don't, not in the least bit. Did I give them a chance? Yes, and provided feedback and was a good beta tester and did what I could. Can I get used to them? Sure I can, I've gotten used to many, many changes over the years, but nothing this drastic all at once. The frog in the water analogy that someone posted comes to mind here.

    The community is to me what takes this game from good to great. I have so many fond memories (the first time in the Foundry when our resident RK went running ahead of the tank around a corner and discovering a pile of mobs waiting on him to which he promptly dragged back to the group shouting some colorful language is one of my favorites, oh the stories I could tell). When the community that I've played with for so many years has slowly trickled away (and more will go, I'm sure of this) then I lose one of the major reasons for staying with the game, sure I'm a LoTRO fanatic and I'm in this until Turbine pulls the plug, but this does not mean that I have to spend any more money on the game (lifetimer), nor play anywhere near the amount of time that I usually do. I'll level up my little "family", get them all ready for the next thing and go play/do other things until the next thing comes out in LoTRO, rinse and repeat until the lights are shut off. Dang I'm going to miss this so much.

  19. #994
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Crawfish? I don't get what you mean by this. It must be a slang term I've never heard of.

    Yes, when it comes to the trait setup and skills, you will never have the identical setup. That is by design, since it's an entirely new system.
    Rather than try to explain crawfishing, I'll put it another way. You are making two contradictory statements and trying to say they are both true. It's not possible for them to both be true. *different = the same* is not true.

    *You cannot have the character you have on live now*

    *they are not taking away your character*

    One of those statements is not true. Either you can have the character you have now on live, in which case they are not taking away your character, or you cannot have the character you have now on live, in which case they are taking away your character and replacing it with something else.

    Since it is demonstrably true that we will not be capable of having our characters that we have on live now, then it is true that they are taking away our characters, and replacing them with something else. So for you to say they are not taking away our characters is false.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  20. #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    Right. I meant to agree that it would be pointless for me or anyone else to argue about a matter of taste.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    And if by civil you mean challenging and attacking anyone who dares to speak badly about this expansion then you need to rethink what civil is. You seem to be quite happy to respond without hesitation to anyone that offers up anything like a negative point yet never do so with any substance, and when people challenge you on things you dont like you just pretend it never happened and move on to someone else to attack and tell them their thoughts are wrong.
    I haven't told anyone their thoughts are wrong. I am giving my opinion, just as you are. It's up to everyone to make up their own mind about the changes. As for responses, I don't think anyone can accuse me of not responding in this discussion. I've logged dozens of comments here, and I've responded to everything people have put out there with the rare exception of a couple comments I felt were too harsh and nasty to respond to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    I am a champ traited for dps in a raid , all is going well, until the tank crashes , no warning just stops tanking, the big nasty troll and his adds make for the minnie (or me) explain what tools I have to , grab aggro of that troll, stay alive and keep the raid going till the tank gets back?

    In game scenario 2

    I am on my rk again dpsing quite happily, this time our healer has a lapse in concentration and doesnt notice the big red square he is stood in and dies, explain what tools I have to step in keep the raid alive long enough until the minnie can be rezzed, healed back to full, rebuffed and got his bearings back enough to take back over and allow me to go back dpsing again?


    So to clarify your point, there USED to be no situation in game where we didnt have the correct tool in the bag, now after these changes the game is FULL of situations where we wont have the correct tool in the bag.
    As with previous raids and instances and combat scenarios, if something happens that we are unprepared for, we will wipe or die. How is that different from any other game, anywhere? Back in the SoA days, we didn't have "every tool for every occasion" either, and to me the game was about a thousand times more fun. Over the past few years this game has become more and more of a joke. Everyone is god-mode, all the mobs are mosquitoes and gnats that can be killed with a couple shots. Things have been getting completely out of hand. Hunters with a bubble? Are you kidding me? Healers that can out-DPS DPS classes? Seriously?

    I get it that some people liked it that way. I personally didn't. I don't mind making some sacrifices to turn this game in a more sane direction. I welcome the sacrifices, because I was really growing bored with the game and the direction it was headed in.

    Like I said before, it's up to the individual to decide whether they like the changes, and whether they want to stick with the game or not. My position on the matter isn't a mystery to anyone at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    One of those statements is not true. Either you can have the character you have now on live, in which case they are not taking away your character, or you cannot have the character you have now on live, in which case they are taking away your character and replacing it with something else.
    You are really splitting hairs, here. Here is your original statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    *We are taking your character from you and you can't have him anymore."
    To me, that statement implies the skill changes are the same as if you were to login to the game and find your character has been deleted. But in fact, that's not the case at all. You will login on the 18th and find that your character is still there. All the progression, deeds, mounts, titles, xp, gear, cosmetics, etc. are still there. The skills and traits will have been changed, and you will need to respec and rearrange your skillbars, but your character will still be there. And it will play similar to how it does right now on live. In some ways more potent, in some ways narrowed. So, Turbine isn't taking away anyone's character. An alteration is not a removal.

  21. #996
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
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    2,334
    I think I read that thing about getting bonuses if choosing specialization early in one of the earlier threads by Turbine with info about trait trees. I can't find it now, so maybe all the older stuff gets removed when that page fills up with newer threads? Anyway, I found the text I added in the quote below where nick_wilbur is referring to the info I read. I remember it being about bonuses if we choose specialization at an early level, but maybe it's something that has been changed, or maybe bonuses doesn't mean anything special at all, just what everybody will get anyway as long as they do their deeds and such? But why write about bonuses when it comes to early choice if it really doesn't matter, and you can change your mind as many times as you want?

    Anyway, I just wanted to show what I'm talking about. It seems like there are no bonuses to an early choice since it would have been noticed in the beta so I'm happy


    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Class-Changes
    Q27: @nick_wilbur you guys keep saying specialization will be chosen at a low level & bonuses granted. Initially, what can we expect with toons at 85?
    A27: DeviledEGG We'll autogrant you the correct number of points for your level. #LOTRO
    A27a: Deeds that previously gave traits will give trait points. #LOTRO
    A27b: You can choose your specialization and spend your points when you login when HD goes live. #LOTRO
    ;) “There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading to the same place, so it doesn’t matter which path you take. The only person wasting time is the one who runs around the mountain, telling everyone that his or her path is wrong.” ~ Hindu Proverb

  22. #997
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    True.



    I
    As with previous raids and instances and combat scenarios, if something happens that we are unprepared for, we will wipe or die. How is that different from any other game, anywhere? Back in the SoA days, we didn't have "every tool for every occasion" either, and to me the game was about a thousand times more fun. Over the past few years this game has become more and more of a joke. Everyone is god-mode, all the mobs are mosquitoes and gnats that can be killed with a couple shots. Things have been getting completely out of hand. Hunters with a bubble? Are you kidding me? Healers that can out-DPS DPS classes? Seriously?



    .
    A. it's not that they are unprepared for it, they know exactly what's needed; it's merely unavailable being split over two different trees with attached penalties. that does not = un prepared that means gimped. Unprepared = I have no idea what I need, how to get it, or what to do with it when I have it.
    b. As far as pwr creep, you must play mostly landscape or small fellows, yup everything you say is true there, try a raid.

  23. #998
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    In the Ninky Nonk
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post

    As with previous raids and instances and combat scenarios, if something happens that we are unprepared for, we will wipe or die. How is that different from any other game, anywhere? Back in the SoA days, we didn't have "every tool for every occasion" either, and to me the game was about a thousand times more fun. Over the past few years this game has become more and more of a joke. Everyone is god-mode, all the mobs are mosquitoes and gnats that can be killed with a couple shots. Things have been getting completely out of hand. Hunters with a bubble? Are you kidding me? Healers that can out-DPS DPS classes? Seriously?
    I'm not one to split out posts etc but just on that point, I've got a champ that when played in late SoA & MoM I always had the heavy shield traited. Lost count of the number of times I had to switch from dual wield to a tanking set up in Glory stance in order to either off-tank a 2nd boss or adds. Lol I think I did something like a dozen Fil Gashen runs during MoM just to get the barter coin for the gloves and I always ended up tanking the archer adds. I even tanked the Everseer in the Rift with that set up.

    It was only one trait but it gave me so much flexibility and extra utility - and that of course was long before the champ revamp got rid of the shield and replaced it with bubbles.

    But yeah, overall class strategy & design did need a rethink.
    <A sig goes here>

  24. #999
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    You are really splitting hairs, here. Here is your original statement:



    To me, that statement implies the skill changes are the same as if you were to login to the game and find your character has been deleted. But in fact, that's not the case at all. You will login on the 18th and find that your character is still there. All the progression, deeds, mounts, titles, xp, gear, cosmetics, etc. are still there. The skills and traits will have been changed, and you will need to respec and rearrange your skillbars, but your character will still be there. And it will play similar to how it does right now on live. In some ways more potent, in some ways narrowed. So, Turbine isn't taking away anyone's character. An alteration is not a removal.
    No, this is not correct. I will log in on the 18th and find that my character is not there. I will find *a* character there that has the same name and the same look, but it will not be the same character. It will not be the character I built over the last 1+ years. Again, you are trying to say that *different = the same*, and that's contradictory.

    *edit* so the statement is true. They are taking away your character and you cannot have him anymore. As you yourself admit.
    Last edited by Dworin; Nov 09 2013 at 07:50 PM.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  25. #1000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippa View Post
    A. it's not that they are unprepared for it, they know exactly what's needed; it's merely unavailable being split over two different trees with attached penalties. that does not = un prepared that means gimped. Unprepared = I have no idea what I need, how to get it, or what to do with it when I have it.
    b. As far as pwr creep, you must play mostly landscape or small fellows, yup everything you say is true there, try a raid.
    Ah, the old "you must be a casual player if you like these changes" argument. Hadn't seen that one in awhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    They are taking away your character and you cannot have him anymore. As you yourself admit.
    No, I do not admit or agree with that statement. I find that statement to be absurd in this context, as I have repeatedly stated.

    This conversation really is degenerating.

    *ding* comment 1,000. Probably as good a time as ever to move on.

 

 
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