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  1. #851
    I do see a benefit to the RPers, though: "I got hit in the head and now have partial amnesia"
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  2. #852
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombielord View Post
    And is your post supposed to be funny?

    If you mean by "too much to do" complete all the challenges that only require you to run from point a to b and spend the rest of the time standing around and fire the catapults until you can collect your rewards, then I agree.
    That's odd. The instance (solo) I was in had 4 or 5 different things to do. Almost all at the same time. Plus keeping someone alive. Had kind of a lot to do.

  3. #853

    Talking X-Files

    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    I do see a benefit to the RPers, though: "I got hit in the head and now have partial amnesia"
    Though if everyone talks about this experience some really sinister conspiration will have taken place.

  4. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKH View Post
    The problem is not about having so many skills that players cannot use them all. The problem lies at how many skills just lie on your bars for weeks, months and even years for the purpose "just in case", contributes very a little to overall playstyle (like the skill-reset skill "Deep Breath" of Guardian: the concept of using "oh carp" skills twice is nice, but I rather to have it as something more useful and can be used frequently than having it just occupying a slot as a very rare-to-use skill).
    Some of these skills may be used a lot though, but still end up being removed. Ie, I have used Deep Breath more frequently than once a month or whatever. If it's a tough fight and I'm not a top tiered player, I need to use it.

    Better example might be Minstrel from Shadows of Angmar. We had a variety of healing skills, all slightly different but with unique uses. A normal every day heal that does a lot and is power conservative; a group heal that sucked up a lot more power so you couldn't spam it; an expensive but big heal that you could use even while moving; one emergency group heal with a looong cooldown; a melee-skill that also heals a little. Many minstrels used ALL of these, I remember even using all of them within a single epic quest instance. Now someone could decide that is too many skills and just cut them down to two heals, and to make up for the lack of flexibility just shorten the cooldown time. But the problem with that hypothetical example is that it could end up with a much more boring game play where the minstrel has to spam the heals; fewer skills, less time spent learning the class, but the end result isn't fun.

  5. #855
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post

    Better example might be Minstrel from Shadows of Angmar.
    You do realize the minstrel from SoA hasn't existed for some time, right? The class changes are similar in scope to the mini changes a couple years ago. I recall seeing many of these same arguments then. Nostalgia is all well and good, but remember: "nostalgia is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth." (paraphrased, I know. But still apt I think.)

  6. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider View Post
    If you consider all the 'systems' added to the game at the expense of new content:

    Legendary Items
    This is not a good way of thinking about it. Because the developer are not interchangeable units in a factory. The person who's great at doing one job may not be very good at a different job. The person creating landscape is not the same person creating class changes for instance. So cutting back on these features would NOT have added new content. Unless you think the job market is full of highly skilled and available game developers where you can just hire and fire and will as the requirements change and still have a quality staff.

    For "Legendary Items", not that we got this, plus "Radiance", simultaneously with the biggest content addition in the game! Of course, they had a ton of cash at that point, a larger staff, some content already partially completed, etc. But it really does hurt your argument to list Legendary Items as something that hindered content.

  7. #857
    Quote Originally Posted by Nonan View Post
    Though if everyone talks about this experience some really sinister conspiration will have taken place.
    Yes, but RPers are a creative bunch. Exactly how many Thanes are in Hytbold?
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  8. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by OptimShi View Post
    Class changes are awful. This is now a completely different game than I originally purchased, and not for the better. As Bhoris_they_spider said, the tough choice is whether or not to keep playing.
    I agree ... From what I have heard these class changes take out the ability to personalize your character and utilize a fighting style that works for you. It sounds as if we are all now clones. That will not appeal to many players who like personalization and the ability to stamp their own impression on a game that, so far, has allowed it. I have also heard the game content in mediocre with all emphasis on the big battles and not the other things people can do in Western Rohan. Suffice it to say, I am not pleased. If this is what we are to expect from now on then you can bet people will leave.
    [IMG]http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff98/Amberdrake67/sig-lotro2_zps2d1c9938.jpg[/IMG]
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  9. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post
    I would call completing the instance a win. Sure, you may not have gotten rewarded as much in the end because you didn't do all the little side things but if the instance has been completed, you met your base objective and that is a win.
    Except that you got essentially zero rewards, and now you can't do that quest again until the next day.

  10. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    I am seriously confused by the fixation on what happens on day one of Helm's Deep over what happens when the character is maxed in Helms Deep.
    What about what happens at level 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and so on? Those players need good game play too. Not everything is a landscape quest that is easy to complete, many players do want to group up. Especially at lower level the adaptability in class roles is more important than at high level where most players are insistant on a pure tank/heal/dps pattern. There is still group content at the lower levels.

    In the past the classes all got fun starting from the first level. There was never a need to get to high level before you got to do the fun stuff. Even in the first game I saw with trees, WoW, good players were choosing hybrid builds with their talents.

    Designing a game specifically for the highest level players can be extremely boring to everone else. That's the way it was in Asheron's Call and why I gave up on it.

  11. #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Except that you got essentially zero rewards, and now you can't do that quest again until the next day.
    There are 5 big battles, all of which can be completed solo. I can go in 5 big battles per day and do nothing, letting the rewards accumulate towards the next highest tier. Exactly how am I being punished?

    Is this an extreme example? Of course. Is it totally possible? Of course. Do I think people will do it? Some will but to what extent I neither know nor care. But let me know the last solo or 3 man instance you go do that in. Wait, that was the AFK-with-Frodo-in-Rivendell quest. Remember going in /follow on Frodo while he walked around Rivendell and you went to make a snack, get a drink, check out facebook, come back - oh, he's still talking - back to make a phone call...

    Regardless of the possibilities of winning with no effort, the kinds of effort necessary are not extensive. How much fun was it for the catapult folks in Thangulhad? How much fun is it going to be for folks to run to NPCs and tell them "do this" or click on catapults as your role in a "raid" or "instance"? For me it was not enjoyable.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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  12. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    NOT use GLFF
    Thanks.. that was the funniest (and truest) thing I have read yet about this new stuff.

  13. #863
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    Ok.. not sure if its the hundreds of postings (35 pages now) or reading more about the new expansion from beta testers in and outside this thread. I guess I am getting that this hurricane of destruction is coming, like it or not, and us poor players will have to deal with the aftermath. Its all about SKILL BLOAT.

    Funny thing about it tho. For.. I dont know.. EVERY EXPANSION SINCE MORIA, I have been reading that they do not want STAT BLOAT, that they were trying not to increase our stats too much. HOW COME THE NEW GEAR ALMOST DOUBLES OUR STATS from now to 95?

  14. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Thanks.. that was the funniest (and truest) thing I have read yet about this new stuff.
    Actually, that wasn't about the new stuff. According to the forums no one uses GLFF NOW.

  15. #865
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Actually, that wasn't about the new stuff. According to the forums no one uses GLFF NOW.
    *raises hand* GLFF, the few times I was actually in it, seemed like a cesspool as I read the chat. It's been a *long* time since I was there.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  16. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    *raises hand* GLFF, the few times I was actually in it, seemed like a cesspool as I read the chat. It's been a *long* time since I was there.
    LOL That's what I've heard. Why I stay out of it.

  17. #867
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Why did Turbine alter its content to make it so solo friendly?
    Some of this I think is really due to gear disparities. Thare ARE some players for which the content is a bit difficult. I think Turbine has taken this too far but I can see where they were coming from. Granted, I saw some pretty bad examples out there (one hunter still using the Gates of Moria legendary bow many levels later at level 74 and being defeated in The Wold). However it is not uncommon to see players at all levels with gear that is well below average. It's because they're not interested in itemization and are just playing the game as it's presented instead of stopping to craft or browse the auction halls. So Turbine needs to make a game that's usable by both the people who are geared up plus the people are have lousy gear.

    In some ways Turbine inadvertently encourages this disparity by making leveling so fast. Getting through zones so fast that there's no time to earn virtues, or an appropriate amount of gold for the level range, or getting used to your new skills.

  18. #868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    You do realize the minstrel from SoA hasn't existed for some time, right?
    Yes, I was giving an example though of something that had a lot of skills that could naively be compacted into fewer skills.

  19. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    Do characters learn any new skills as they level from 85 to 95, or do they just earn more trait points?
    You don't get skills just from leveling after a certain point, not sure when but probably around level 50 to 60.
    But you get points to spend on skills, though not as many are there anymore. But definitely any point spent is similar to a "enhanced" skill.

    Note also that 85-95 is a very big leap forward: you get 10 new skill points then! Levels 65-75, or 75-85, give only 5 points each.
    I'm not sure why it was done this way, it would have made more sense to spread out the gaining of points more uniformly. But then people couldn't say "don't worry if it's not so great at 85, you'll soon get 10 more points."

  20. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    What about what happens at level 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and so on? Those players need good game play too. Not everything is a landscape quest that is easy to complete, many players do want to group up. Especially at lower level the adaptability in class roles is more important than at high level where most players are insistant on a pure tank/heal/dps pattern. There is still group content at the lower levels.
    I played quite a bit on my lower level alts in beta to get a sense of it, and I actually think at lower levels the classes are more fun than they are now at lower levels. There are some pretty hardcore skills that used to only be accessible at higher levels, which are now accessible at a much lower level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    There are 5 big battles, all of which can be completed solo. I can go in 5 big battles per day and do nothing, letting the rewards accumulate towards the next highest tier. Exactly how am I being punished?

    Is this an extreme example? Of course. Is it totally possible? Of course. Do I think people will do it? Some will but to what extent I neither know nor care. But let me know the last solo or 3 man instance you go do that in. Wait, that was the AFK-with-Frodo-in-Rivendell quest. Remember going in /follow on Frodo while he walked around Rivendell and you went to make a snack, get a drink, check out facebook, come back - oh, he's still talking - back to make a phone call...

    Regardless of the possibilities of winning with no effort, the kinds of effort necessary are not extensive. How much fun was it for the catapult folks in Thangulhad? How much fun is it going to be for folks to run to NPCs and tell them "do this" or click on catapults as your role in a "raid" or "instance"? For me it was not enjoyable.
    Well, it really depends on the person, that's for sure. I really enjoyed having a new mechanic to play with and build on. But like I said earlier, I think Big Battles may likely be more poorly received by some than even the class changes. Not everyone is going to find that type of content enjoyable.

    Although, I still disagree that you're going to be able to get far or get decent rewards by loading Big Battles and going AFK. Good luck with that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    *raises hand* GLFF, the few times I was actually in it, seemed like a cesspool as I read the chat. It's been a *long* time since I was there.
    REALLY depends on the server. Some servers have a worse GLFF community than others. Landroval's GLFF is actually really good. People in there tend to be really community-minded, helpful, friendly and fun to chat with. Of course there are a few bad apples every now and then but they don't tend to stick around long, and when they do there's always /ignore.

  21. #871
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ingaras View Post
    1) They hinder customization and lead to what I believe are called 'cookie-cutter characters'
    We've been there before actually, but then the other way around... during Moria we had the same complaint about our Radiance gear: because it was by far the best, everyone was wearing it and thus had the same stats. Nowadays we have multiple gear options... but soon will find limited choices in character traits. Generally speaking, players don't like being limited in options. For a developer this is great though, since a limited set of possible options makes balancing a lot easier, but for a player it's an inherent 'flaw' in the design of trees, yet at the same time it's why you use trees instead of free-selection.
    I don't think things are going to be any more cookie cutter in the new system than they are right now on live. Every class has the "best build for x or y" that people tend to stick pretty closely to, and the path we were on would have only continued to reinforce that. Even the gear is pretty cookie cutter. Just hit up an Erebor raid or something and inspect everyone, you'll quickly find that those of the same classes are pretty similar in build, at least - those who know what they're doing and have taken the time to get the best gear.

    At least the new system will be heading further and further away from that as time goes by. Even at 95 people can already have a pretty customized build. Trait swapping on the fly will only add to people's ability to do what they want, when they want it. Gear is another story, and remains to be seen. They aren't even addressing gear until after live so speculation is pointless, but I suspect gear is always going to be fairly homogenizing because Turbine just doesn't have a good handle on breadth of gear in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingaras View Post
    2) Trees aren't required to fix the 'homogenization' of classes. Our 'trait sets' could do that already.
    While sometimes found as annoying as these trees, instead of 'locking away' everything in separate trees, a solution could have been to beef up the 3- or 4-trait set bonuses we already had in place. Like the Blinding Flash penalty for the LM in DPS-mode, or the Healing bonuses for Minstrels in the blue line. Heavy (dis)incentives on those also force players to make the tougher choices about their role, while keeping a lot more customizable 'jack-of-all-trades, but master of none' options.
    Band-aid solution. I prefer a solution that gets at the root of things to patching using gear. Even if this did manage to address some of the issues with end-game characters, it relies entirely on people actually having that gear. And if things nerfed people enough, they'd just start using crafted or something that doesn't kill their potency and versatility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingaras View Post
    3) The proposed trees don't actually fix much about class inbalance, just shifts the trouble.
    It's been said already multiple times in this thread: even in the new system some classes are better off than others and we'll see how future fixes work out. It's the very same pendulum-style balancing that's been going on for ever... One update Wardens are soloing 6-mans, the next they're squishy as tissue paper. Hunters had probably the most extreme example as far back as Moria (unbeatable during release... couldn't kill more than a single goblin at a time after 'fixing' them).
    Well, the jury is still out on that one. We won't know how that's going to fall out until a few months after live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingaras View Post
    4) I don't call levelling 10 levels to earn back the skills I just lost progress.
    It's probably what I probably find most offensive argument in favour to these changes: we made room for progress. Essentially it boils down to 'Don't worry about the skills you lost, because now you can grow again by earning them back!'. If skills were overpowered, fine scrap them, change them, nerf them... but don't tell me taking them away and offering a levelling path to get back to were I started is progress.
    I guess that depends entirely on your perspective. If you are adamant you want to stick with the same exact build and abilities you have on live, then getting to that same build will take a bit of leveling back to level cap. However, you will, along the way, have far more potent versions of the skills you still do have. People say it's all a rollback are pretty short-sighted in my opinion. It's not a rollback when we are getting skills and abilities in the new system that are far more exciting than anything we have on live. Hunters that can shoot on the move without penalty? No one can do that right now on live.

    The skills and abilities may be more limited from the 85 pre-update character to the 85 post-update character, but those few skills and abilities are more powerful. And as we build back up to further hybridization that will only improve. So it is a bit disingenuous to treat those 2 scenarios as parallel when they really aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingaras View Post
    5) Part of the 'no character progress feeling' is by design and has nothing to do with traits or skills, which are now supposed to fix them.
    Ever since level 50 our characters don't grow in power of themselves anymore. Also over time gradually all changes have become level-based ratings, meaning as you level up you need more 'rating points' to keep the same effect. Effectively this means that a character at level 50, at level 60 or at level 85 will be equally potent as long as they have similar gear for their levels. This was partially necessary ofcourse to be able to keep giving seemingly better gear with each level, but it does also mean that there's effectively no progress.
    That's going to change with the new class system, for sure. The more points we have, the more custom our builds will become. The more control over our builds and our playing styles, the more progression we will feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingaras View Post
    6) Too much situational / little used skills have other, less sweeping solutions.
    Like was done with the warsteeds and the big Champion & Minstrel revamps: give skills different effects in different stances. Or make it so you need to have a certain combination of skills to get a certain effect (like Ancient Craft + Lightning or Burning Embers + Fan the Flames, or the Minstrel Anthems). That way a specific skill can have a different effect in different situations and thus always be useful, gone are the situational skills. This could even give ample opportunity for new 'skills' without requiring a lot of additional buttons.
    Yes, I agree this type of approach would definitely help bring more relevancy to some of the "meh" skills, but again, it's a band-aid solution that doesn't address the core issues. Plus some people find that type of thing more confusing. Turbine by mandate are going to have to accommodate those people whether we like it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingaras View Post
    7) Difficulty has been consistently reduced over the last updates and can be balanced back were desired by tuning the enemy instead of the player.
    Look at RoI: landscape was very easy, 6-mans, once the pinnacle of good group play, were reduced to introductions into group play. But at the same time the 12-man raid and 3-man challenges were pretty tough. Difficulty can quite well be tuned by messing with the NPCs instead of the players.
    This is one I totally agree with - the enemies DIRELY need to be rebalanced. It's gotten totally out of hand. This will need to be done regardless of what system we're using. It's just vastly overdue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ingaras View Post
    In short: The issues that supposedly triggered the introduction of these trees, could have been fixed by adapting the current system to better deal with them. I believe it would have been better to build on the successes that also are in the current system and fix it's flaws, instead of reinventing it all and hoping the new thing won't develop its own, new share of problems by next year.
    I respect that view, I just don't agree with it. I've given it a lot of thought, and I just don't think patchwork solutions were going to get the job done. I think maybe some of that is because I've already accepted the new system and moved on. If I had stuck with my initial despair at the thought of losing the old system I would probably agree with you.

  22. #872
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    Chunky_Baby, great thansk for the answer!
    SO, if I chose Red Tree (DPS) - I couldn't slot/use The Green Bubble?
    Would it be possible to, say, have 1 tree capped and then choose some skills from other two?

  23. #873
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Ok.. not sure if its the hundreds of postings (35 pages now) or reading more about the new expansion from beta testers in and outside this thread. I guess I am getting that this hurricane of destruction is coming, like it or not, and us poor players will have to deal with the aftermath. Its all about SKILL BLOAT.

    Funny thing about it tho. For.. I dont know.. EVERY EXPANSION SINCE MORIA, I have been reading that they do not want STAT BLOAT, that they were trying not to increase our stats too much. HOW COME THE NEW GEAR ALMOST DOUBLES OUR STATS from now to 95?
    Yes, and that's why they removed caps on primary stats in the first place ;-)
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  24. #874
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratharim View Post
    Yes, and that's why they removed caps on primary stats in the first place ;-)
    Actually I think they're trying to correct that now.
    Basically they're now normalizing stat values again with the new gear. With only secondary stats being different between items of the same quality, fully geared up at 95 we'll all have very similar stats now, compared to the huge variation on live. So damage, healing and survivability will be on very similar levels stat-wise. They probably hope that this will make content balancing much easier in the future.
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
    Playing now: Hellcat / King Tiger / GW Panther / IS / KV-5 / M4 Sherman and more

  25. #875
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    I wasn't happy about all of the changes at first but I'm getting used to the changes now. I'm actually starting to get excited about the release. The graphics are incredible. Although the "big battles" aren't really my kind of game (maybe because I'm a woman or maybe but some women say they love it so no idea lol), it's obvious a lot of work has been put into it. The expansion is huge. I think this is going to be the best update yet.
    Last edited by Norwrei; Nov 09 2013 at 02:25 PM. Reason: typo

 

 
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