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  1. #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    You've responded to the issues with LotRO with a discussion of how another game works. That's not really a response. We have never had a system like that. If one actually accepts that LotRO was developed in a certain direction, then one has to admit that we'd hit a dead end on that path.
    I would counter your statement with the statement that, "Lotro, after the 18th, is not the game I have been playing for four years, nor is it headed in the direction it has been taking for those same four years". (IE, allowing me to use all my skills when I felt I needed them.) So, yes, comparing another game to the new re-invisioned LOTRO is indeed a real response, just as yours was.

    I am sadly beginning to understand the ire of some of the posters in this thread with "everything is lollipops and rainbows" comments. Some of these same posters keep saying the same things, over and over, without actually providing anything but "Live with it".

    And, from another comment Frick, if you "trust that Turbine will get this right", I see a warden in your sig, but it must not have been your main during the 18 months it took to recover from RoI. I lived that. And all trust that Turbine would fix it went away after the second promised fix months after ROI rolled out. It finally took a cooperative dev, who actually communicated with the warden community, and the warden player base to get wardens to where they were playable. The players were the ones who IDed that Finesse affected Med armor Mits on a much higher curve than Heavy. Yeah, right now, the class is so overpowered for solo stuff that they needed a nerf that everyone pretty much expected. HOWEVER, these changes affect ALL classes. I highly doubt all of the classes will get the attention required for a good long time. These changes seem poorly planned, same as the warden ROI days when I was in that Beta. The testers spent a lot of that Beta saying the wardens were broke, but that was ignored by Turbine.
    Last edited by Darlgon; Nov 07 2013 at 04:57 PM.

  2. #827
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garabrand View Post
    Just wanted to put a few things out there.
    Won't bother quoting your whole post here, just want to say +++++Rep, Garabrand. You did an excellent job of articulating the situation as I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atheling View Post
    It kind of narrows the discussion somewhat when in essence what you're saying is 'people who dislike these changes are incoherent once you disallow that what has happened might not have been the only option available'.

    Just my views. Sorry if it jars to point that out to you or wasn't your intention by posting that list of things, which are all open to challenge, as some sort of 'this has never been disputed' when we both know that when attempts were made they were closed down with 'it ain't changing, deal with it' or words to those effect. Fun fact is that while the debate on 'skill bloat' wages, it was arguably made worse in this expansion for some classes in some builds. Which made me chuckle, at least. Oh, point of level regression was to highlight that your idea of progression is very linear but it's all irrelevant in the end. I'm done here
    There is nothing contradictory about saying that no one has made a compelling and coherent argument against the class changes, and then also saying that other systems might have been possible. Nothing at all. No matter how you try to shoehorn the two together.

    There are very real issues that needed to be addressed. I listed them out in a previous post. There may be more I didn't think of at the time. Those are the ones that came to mind for me. I have yet to see anyone who is against the class changes successfully argue that those issues weren't real, and didn't need addressing. I have yet to see anyone against the class changes propose a solution that fits within the development realities of LotRO (i.e. isn't a completely new system that throws away the system, skills and classes we currently have). Like it or not, Turbine has managed to create a system that will be at least familiar to players. They will have to relearn some things, but many of the skills traits will be the same or similar to what we already have on live.

    And the skill bloat thing I am seriously not going to comment on anymore. If people don't get that skill bloat wasn't about number of skills, I've done all I can to help them at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    I would counter your statement with the statement that, "Lotro, after the 18th, is not the game I have been playing for four years, nor is it headed in the direction it has been taking for those same four years". (IE, allowing me to use all my skills when I felt I needed them.) So, yes, comparing another game to the new re-invisioned LOTRO is indeed a real response, just as yours was.
    I think the game after the 18th is a lot more in the direction of the original SoA game I started playing than what it had become over the past couple of years. But my issue wasn't that the person shouldn't compare what we have in beta with what they'd prefer to see in a game. You're right, that's a perfectly legitimate response. My issue was with the fact that people have not directly addressed the problems with the current class system in the realities of the game LotRO.

    The skill trees do address those issues. It remains to be seen how successfully, as there's a lot that will not be knowable until after it all goes live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    I am sadly beginning to understand the ire of some of the posters in this thread with "everything is lollipops and rainbows" comments. Some of these same posters keep saying the same things, over and over, without actually providing anything but "Live with it".
    First of all, I've not been all lollipops and rainbows, such a comment is an insult and completely uncalled for. If people want their ideas taken seriously they really need to try to stick to the issues and not resort to personal attacks.

    Second, I have taken the time to remain engaged in this discussion, and to respond as thoughtfully as possible to the comments people are making. I've posted easily tens of thousands of words in this thread. Some of them may have been repetitive, but for the most part, not at all. If anything I say sounds consistent through the posts I've made, that's probably because my position hasn't changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    And, from another comment Frick, if you "trust that Turbine will get this right", I see a warden in your sig, but it must not have been your main during the 18 months it took to recover from RoI. I lived that. And all trust that Turbine would fix it went away after the second promised fix months after ROI rolled out. It finally took a cooperative dev, who actually communicated with the warden community, and the warden player base to get wardens to where they were playable. The players were the ones who IDed that Finesse affected Med armor Mits on a much higher curve than Heavy. Yeah, right now, the class is so overpowered for solo stuff that they needed a nerf that everyone pretty much expected. HOWEVER, these changes affect ALL classes. I highly doubt all of the classes will get the attention required for a good long time. These changes seem poorly planned, same as the warden ROI days when I was in that Beta. The testers spent a lot of that Beta saying the classes were broke, but that was ignored by Turbine.
    Yeah, and I followed that statement directly with "I know others don't (trust Turbine)." I get that not everyone trusts them. I've no doubt people have their reasons for that. Thankfully I wasn't one of those who had to endure the RoI warden issues (my warden is only level 32, and I haven't played her much). I've heard a LOT about the warden debacle and I agree, it was (is) a gong show. But I see those issues as going hand in hand with the issues that make these class changes necessary. Will these changes resolve all that? That remains to be seen. I hope they will go a long way toward making things more sane and balanced, but that will only be known after things have been live for awhile.
    Last edited by frickinmuck; Nov 07 2013 at 05:03 PM.

  3. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Won't bother quoting your whole post here, just want to say +++++Rep, Garabrand. You did an excellent job of articulating the situation as I see it.



    There is nothing contradictory about saying that no one has made a compelling and coherent argument against the class changes, and then also saying that other systems might have been possible. Nothing at all. No matter how you try to shoehorn the two together.

    There are very real issues that needed to be addressed. I listed them out in a previous post. There may be more I didn't think of at the time. Those are the ones that came to mind for me. I have yet to see anyone who is against the class changes successfully argue that those issues weren't real, and didn't need addressing. I have yet to see anyone against the class changes propose a solution that fits within the development realities of LotRO (i.e. isn't a completely new system that throws away the system, skills and classes we currently have). Like it or not, Turbine has managed to create a system that will be at least familiar to players. They will have to relearn some things, but many of the skills traits will be the same or similar to what we already have on live.

    And the skill bloat thing I am seriously not going to comment on anymore. If people don't get that skill bloat wasn't about number of skills, I've done all I can to help them at this point.
    Ok here is my compelling argument. I dislike the changes. I choose not to purchase HD. The game gets no further financial support from me.
    /fin
    If a wanted a perma lazy agro tank I woulda played Wow.
    /fin

  4. #829
    The more I think about this situation, the more discouraged I become because I keep seeing issues that are going to hurt. *sigh*

    Such as my First Age Guardian sword. If I trait blue or yellow as a Guardian, then I find that both the *overwhelm* legacies and *to the king* legacy become useless, as they are in the red tree. So the sword will be gimped. But my partial solution is to decon LI's with different legacies so that when HD goes live, I can swap legacies to ones I will use in yellow. True, they will not be rank 9, but at least they'll be useful. BUT!!! one of the selling points of the trees is that, if OOC, you can swap trees for a given situation, but if I swap from yellow to red, boom! more legacies that are useless for that encounter on my LI and it is gimped once again. So what are we expected to do? Build 3 LI's and carry them around so we can swap weapons as well as trees? Thanks, but that bites, bigtime.

    It's really discouraging.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  5. #830
    If a wanted a perma lazy agro tank I woulda played Wow.
    Totally understand not wanting to play. The changes aren't for everyone, and each should be respected for their decision...honestly though, I think "lazy aggro tank" was present before HD...warden just needed to Shield Mastery, DoWx2, EoBx4, and *yawn* let the healer keep you up. Without any aggro-generating skills, it'll be much harder to tank, especially with our dps, even when multiplied, barely matching pure dps classes.
    Last edited by Garabrand; Nov 07 2013 at 05:32 PM.

  6. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    The more I think about this situation, the more discouraged I become because I keep seeing issues that are going to hurt. *sigh*

    Such as my First Age Guardian sword. If I trait blue or yellow as a Guardian, then I find that both the *overwhelm* legacies and *to the king* legacy become useless, as they are in the red tree. So the sword will be gimped. But my partial solution is to decon LI's with different legacies so that when HD goes live, I can swap legacies to ones I will use in yellow. True, they will not be rank 9, but at least they'll be useful. BUT!!! one of the selling points of the trees is that, if OOC, you can swap trees for a given situation, but if I swap from yellow to red, boom! more legacies that are useless for that encounter on my LI and it is gimped once again. So what are we expected to do? Build 3 LI's and carry them around so we can swap weapons as well as trees? Thanks, but that bites, bigtime.

    It's really discouraging.
    Ever since I can remember I used to carry around multiple LIs...2 heal LIs and 2 dps LIs on my RK, a tank rune and a dps rune on my champ, etc...I didn't know people never did this...they weren't completely maxed out, I focused more effort on the one I'd use in groups, i.e. 1st ager, vs 2nd age rk dps stone or champ tank rune. Just made sense to me to fill the one I used in any particular situation with the most legacies that would help me in that situation.

  7. #832
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    First off, excellent post, Valkrist. You answered much better than I at your points.

    But a few questions / comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    4. The abandoning of Fellowship Maneuvers being a useful, and sometimes vital, tactic of the Free-folk. The Overlords have said many times that they had trouble 'balancing' them, and that is because they are entirely based on those behind the looking glass performing them, unfiltered by class.
    NO KIDDING. What ever happened to them anyways? Raid bosses became so you could not do them, burglars did not need to loose their marbles, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    5. The goal of group content has changed from one of mere survival to, largely, one of efficiency, and how quickly instances can be conquered in order to move onto the next.
    This was another reinvision of the game I forgot about. Taking 6 hour raids and making them into 1-2 hour raids fine. But taking 2 hour raid spaces and making them so your goal was to try to do them in less than 30 minutes, lost the feel of it being a real raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    I would venture to guess that 'endgame players' or 'raiders' or however you wish to term them are the subset of players who take the most issue with these changes, for they effect that playstyle the most. Many have left before now, and there are sure to be more that leave due to these changes. Will there be enough of an interest left for 'challenging' content or warrant the time to create it?
    Are there still real raiders in this game any more? I see PUGs getting skirmishes that are labeled raids, but, as you pointed out, with the mobs being wet noodles that players 5 levels under can solo, the raiders having gear with 25-50% more HP than the mobs, can anyone be surprised that a lot of true raiders left? Our kin used to raid regularly. We came to Lotro as raiders from EQ1. People got so bored after Mirkwood, doing the same skirm over and over that they drifted away. We cannot usually field a 6 man anymore. We all come back for new content and our cozy guys we have worked on over the years, but, with this update, that too is gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    Well, again, I think the ease of content over the past few years has been by design. Evidences for this are Mounted Combat, the ease of the Undying Title, and so on. So many argue this 'homogenization' is due to the variance of skills given to each class, but the foes we face are half of the equation as well. And they have been turned into wet noodles!
    Oh, here is that quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    Our classes were designed in an earlier time, in lands far more dangerous than now. The closer we return to those times, the more that balance will return.
    Just for emphasis of the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    I can solo some Small Fellowship, Tier 3 skirmishes now. But, put me back in the days of Moria, and I would be lucky to succeed in T3 Solo skirmishes. And it cannot be because of Legendary Items, nor traits, because I would already have had them by Level 60. It would be interesting to see, if anyone had some old data logs of fighting the monsters back then to see their damage output and how much damage they took, and then make the same character and compare it to now. The difference would be shocking, I have to believe.

    Reset our foes to their old potency and Champion and Hunter self-heals go from allowing them to tank Sambrog, to mainly being merely maintenance heals to lessen downtime between fights, as they were intended to be all along. I cannot make this point strongly enough. There is, without question, a casual effect between the making of our foes into wet noodles and the 'homogenization' issue that has suddenly sprung up. Fix the cause and homogenization will fade. It really will
    Not exactly sure about the "homogenization" issue. I mean.. Why did Turbine alter its content to make it so solo friendly? Was it not because the player base was complaining about not being able to get into groups? Was it not from complaints that they were standing around in 21st hall. But it was also because, at least for my two mains, people were saying, "LFG tank, and not a warden. Even a champ will do." "LFG DPS, oh and LMs need not apply." I saw both of those at different times during that time. So, to encourage grouping, their vision was, make each class able to fill any role in a group. THAT concept started us down the path to the "homogenization" that this update is going to try to fix.

    Frankly, on that count, I am most worried about this new trait tree structure failing. People who have never had to group in 85 levels, never needed to learn how to play with others, will HAVE to group to do the skirms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    Consider that each and every skill we have currently was once a twinkle in a developer's eye. It was drawn up, developed, tested, retested, argued over, argued for by someone strongly enough to finally make the cut and become a part of the game we all love. Show those poor skills some respect! :P
    This is yet another concern I have. The skills I got when I was leveling up filled niches that allowed me to continue to progress. From the look of the skills gated into the trait trees, a lot of the low level skills appear to be gone. (Add, not in beta, so I only know what I have seen posted.) Low levels, levelling up now, SHOULD still need those skills. But, the primary focus of a lot of posts I see now are concerning level 85 and.. horribly, posts that say, when you get to 95 your class will be more playable. What about the level 10 trying to do landscape. Throw him the the Shire wolves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    But everything was already in place here. All the skills and design were already done. To toss it away is shocking, to me at least. Especially so since there seemed to be a niche to be filled, and those like me who enjoy more complexity really have nowhere else to go to find it anymore.
    Worst part is, throwing a diamond ring in a trash dump, you are not ever gonna get it back.

  8. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Garabrand View Post
    Totally understand not wanting to play. The changes aren't for everyone, and each should be respected for their decision...honestly though, I think "lazy aggro tank" was present before HD...warden just needed to Shield Mastery, DoWx2, EoBx4, and *yawn* let the healer keep you up. Without any aggro-generating skills, it'll be much harder to tank, especially with our dps, even when multiplied, barely matching pure dps classes.
    well I play a grd, can't speak for wardens. With top tier DPS there was nothing boring about a guard(except draigoch, most boring MT fight in history).

    Currently as a guard you just have to be present *yawn*

  9. #834
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    First of all, I've not been all lollipops and rainbows, such a comment is an insult and completely uncalled for. If people want their ideas taken seriously they really need to try to stick to the issues and not resort to personal attacks.

    Second, I have taken the time to remain engaged in this discussion, and to respond as thoughtfully as possible to the comments people are making. I've posted easily tens of thousands of words in this thread. Some of them may have been repetitive, but for the most part, not at all. If anything I say sounds consistent through the posts I've made, that's probably because my position hasn't changed.
    Dang it.. I almost edited that with a comment that, "While I was typing this post, Frick acknowledged some of the issues and that it was not directed solely at her."

  10. #835
    What i have read, it is not necessary to buy legendary trait slots for the legendary skills, because they are part of the skill trees.

    Is that right? Cause my alts havent got three Legendary skill slots yet ... and they are on sale now. But if they are useless in 11 days, i would not waste my tps. thx.

  11. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by Garabrand View Post
    Ever since I can remember I used to carry around multiple LIs...2 heal LIs and 2 dps LIs on my RK, a tank rune and a dps rune on my champ, etc...I didn't know people never did this...they weren't completely maxed out, I focused more effort on the one I'd use in groups, i.e. 1st ager, vs 2nd age rk dps stone or champ tank rune. Just made sense to me to fill the one I used in any particular situation with the most legacies that would help me in that situation.
    As a tank I did not need to swap. I build one as powerful as I could and used it. I have access to the skills that the legacies enhanced. Now, I will not have the same access. That discourages me.

    One really powerful weapon or 3 mediocre weapons that I can only use one at a time. hmmmm. Sounds like a step backwards to me.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  12. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by Bendin View Post
    well I play a grd, can't speak for wardens. With top tier DPS there was nothing boring about a guard(except draigoch, most boring MT fight in history).

    Currently as a guard you just have to be present *yawn*
    Exactly my point With the new skill rollout, you have to make sure you're keeping up with dps in order to keep aggro instead of just shouting or whatever you guys do for your AoE taunt..I think it's going to be a huge challenge I think, and take some some time to master..

  13. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Dang it.. I almost edited that with a comment that, "While I was typing this post, Frick acknowledged some of the issues and that it was not directed solely at her."
    Ah, sorry then! I was confused by that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ISS_21 View Post
    What i have read, it is not necessary to buy legendary trait slots for the legendary skills, because they are part of the skill trees.

    Is that right? Cause my alts havent got three Legendary skill slots yet ... and they are on sale now. But if they are useless in 11 days, i would not waste my tps. thx.
    Annoying that they'd put those on sale right before HD, when (as far as I can tell) they will be completely irrelevant at launch. If I were you I'd save my TP. I can't be 100% sure that they won't be needed on the 18th, or that Turbine won't compensate people by replacing them with, say, a free trait tree spec slot or something, but no, legendary trait slots are not being used in beta.

    Edit: the more I think about it, the more likely it seems to me that those legendary trait slots will become legendary trait tree spec slots when HD launches. If I were you I'd put in a support ticket and see what the GM or devs have to say.

  14. #839
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Ah, sorry then! I was confused by that.



    Annoying that they'd put those on sale right before HD, when (as far as I can tell) they will be completely irrelevant at launch. If I were you I'd save my TP. I can't be 100% sure that they won't be needed on the 18th, or that Turbine won't compensate people by replacing them with, say, a free trait tree spec slot or something, but no, legendary trait slots are not being used in beta.

    Edit: the more I think about it, the more likely it seems to me that those legendary trait slots will likely become legendary trait tree spec slots when HD launches.
    The 5 class slots, and 2 legendary slots you buy now become the (otherwise locked) 7 Specalization Bonus slots come Helms Deep.
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
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    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  15. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by Garabrand View Post
    Exactly my point With the new skill rollout, you have to make sure you're keeping up with dps in order to keep aggro instead of just shouting or whatever you guys do for your AoE taunt..I think it's going to be a huge challenge I think, and take some some time to master..
    actually you are mistaken. That was what it is like on live. With the proposed changes all a grd has to do is be present, being awake is optional. The agro gen is more "passive" based. From what I've seen it requires very little interaction from the user other than tossing out a taunt whenever it's off CD. I could probably put a metronome on my keyboard and do just fine.

  16. #841
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Ah, sorry then! I was confused by that.



    Annoying that they'd put those on sale right before HD, when (as far as I can tell) they will be completely irrelevant at launch. If I were you I'd save my TP. I can't be 100% sure that they won't be needed on the 18th, or that Turbine won't compensate people by replacing them with, say, a free trait tree spec slot or something, but no, legendary trait slots are not being used in beta.

    Edit: the more I think about it, the more likely it seems to me that those legendary trait slots will likely become legendary trait tree spec slots when HD launches.
    I thought that the current trait unlocks from the store would become spec set bonus unlocks. I could be wrong about the specific thing unlocked since I don't have a F2P character, but there is absolutely no way they are going to drop something that has been monetized and whatever it converts to won't really be optional

  17. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    The 5 class slots, and 2 legendary slots you buy now become the (otherwise locked) 7 Specalization Bonus slots come Helms Deep.
    Yeah, makes total sense.

  18. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    I would counter your statement with the statement that, "Lotro, after the 18th, is not the game I have been playing for four years, nor is it headed in the direction it has been taking for those same four years". (IE, allowing me to use all my skills when I felt I needed them.) So, yes, comparing another game to the new re-invisioned LOTRO is indeed a real response, just as yours was.

    I am sadly beginning to understand the ire of some of the posters in this thread with "everything is lollipops and rainbows" comments. Some of these same posters keep saying the same things, over and over, without actually providing anything but "Live with it".

    And, from another comment Frick, if you "trust that Turbine will get this right", I see a warden in your sig, but it must not have been your main during the 18 months it took to recover from RoI. I lived that. And all trust that Turbine would fix it went away after the second promised fix months after ROI rolled out. It finally took a cooperative dev, who actually communicated with the warden community, and the warden player base to get wardens to where they were playable. The players were the ones who IDed that Finesse affected Med armor Mits on a much higher curve than Heavy. Yeah, right now, the class is so overpowered for solo stuff that they needed a nerf that everyone pretty much expected. HOWEVER, these changes affect ALL classes. I highly doubt all of the classes will get the attention required for a good long time. These changes seem poorly planned, same as the warden ROI days when I was in that Beta. The testers spent a lot of that Beta saying the wardens were broke, but that was ignored by Turbine.
    Actually, LOTRO will be the same game. There will just be some changes to classes (creeps included for once). I have a warden at 85 and would never consider him unplayable. I started him before RoI and didn't really notice alot of difference after. I haven't really seen any "lollipops and rainbow" posts, though it is clear that some are more accepting of the changes than others. The reasons for the changes have been stated repeatedly. By council members, devs, Sapience. It has been explained. Those "Bashers" for want of a better name, have discounted the reasons given for no other reason than the reality conflicts with their perceived "Turbine hates us" reasons. Even to the point of calling us liars. It is difficult to do much more than say "Well, its happening so get used to it." when any actual reason given is shot down in this fashion. It really does seem like many posters in this thread do not want facts that conflict with their rhetoric.

    Part of the problem is that everyone (not literally everyone, a generalization) is looking for 1 single reason, so they can debate apparently. There are many reasons for these changes. They combat many problems and help pave the way for easier improvements later on. I think part of this stems from NDA related issues. There is simply some information we as players DO NOT get to know. This is not particular to Turbine, almost every company has that. As a for instance, Turbine has actual numbers of players who are happy with these changes. WE DO NOT GET TO KNOW THAT INFO. Many here have arbitrarily decided that any info Turbine has is clearly false, or mis-represented at best. What else can you say to people who have decided a clever or funny tag line is more valuable than truth?

    LOTRO will still be the same game. You will still create a character, run him through the starter zones, join in the Epic line, craft, quest, run OOC into the ground, NOT use GLFF, run instances, collect medallions, etc. Your characters will be a little different. That's all. We are all clever gamers. We will figure the changes out and adapt. That's what we do. (Raiders and PvMPers more than the others) Yes, some will quit the game. Its sad, but many quit the game before HD was even a gleam. Many will join, just as they have always done. The game remains the same. A few details will be altered.

  19. #844
    Hi guys,

    I thought you'd want to know something about Fredolas. Even now, he is still beta testing and bug reporting like crazy, because he wants those of you who still enjoy the game and who want to continue playing through Helm's Deep to have the best game it can be.

    In fact, you'll find many of us "naysayers", "whiners", "ranters", "bashers", and "haters" are doing much the same, if only for the love of the game, the hope that it can be better, and the fact that we want other players to have a good time, even if we aren't. But Fredolas certainly takes the lead. What a classy guy, after all I've seen of this thread.

    Let's stop for a moment and give a hat tip to that guy. His contributions to the community are stellar, even if he can only contribute in a crippled capacity now.

  20. #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbullets View Post
    Let's stop for a moment and give a hat tip to that guy. His contributions to the community are stellar, even if he can only contribute in a crippled capacity now.
    I don't know the details of what happened with him, but I do feel it's a massive loss to the community to not have him here in the forums. Glad he will still be in the game at least.

  21. #846
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NL
    Posts
    480
    You want clear arguments against the trait trees:

    1) They hinder customization and lead to what I believe are called 'cookie-cutter characters'
    We've been there before actually, but then the other way around... during Moria we had the same complaint about our Radiance gear: because it was by far the best, everyone was wearing it and thus had the same stats. Nowadays we have multiple gear options... but soon will find limited choices in character traits. Generally speaking, players don't like being limited in options. For a developer this is great though, since a limited set of possible options makes balancing a lot easier, but for a player it's an inherent 'flaw' in the design of trees, yet at the same time it's why you use trees instead of free-selection.

    2) Trees aren't required to fix the 'homogenization' of classes. Our 'trait sets' could do that already.
    While sometimes found as annoying as these trees, instead of 'locking away' everything in separate trees, a solution could have been to beef up the 3- or 4-trait set bonuses we already had in place. Like the Blinding Flash penalty for the LM in DPS-mode, or the Healing bonuses for Minstrels in the blue line. Heavy (dis)incentives on those also force players to make the tougher choices about their role, while keeping a lot more customizable 'jack-of-all-trades, but master of none' options.

    3) The proposed trees don't actually fix much about class inbalance, just shifts the trouble.
    It's been said already multiple times in this thread: even in the new system some classes are better off than others and we'll see how future fixes work out. It's the very same pendulum-style balancing that's been going on for ever... One update Wardens are soloing 6-mans, the next they're squishy as tissue paper. Hunters had probably the most extreme example as far back as Moria (unbeatable during release... couldn't kill more than a single goblin at a time after 'fixing' them).

    4) I don't call levelling 10 levels to earn back the skills I just lost progress.
    It's probably what I probably find most offensive argument in favour to these changes: we made room for progress. Essentially it boils down to 'Don't worry about the skills you lost, because now you can grow again by earning them back!'. If skills were overpowered, fine scrap them, change them, nerf them... but don't tell me taking them away and offering a levelling path to get back to were I started is progress.

    5) Part of the 'no character progress feeling' is by design and has nothing to do with traits or skills, which are now supposed to fix them.
    Ever since level 50 our characters don't grow in power of themselves anymore. Also over time gradually all changes have become level-based ratings, meaning as you level up you need more 'rating points' to keep the same effect. Effectively this means that a character at level 50, at level 60 or at level 85 will be equally potent as long as they have similar gear for their levels. This was partially necessary ofcourse to be able to keep giving seemingly better gear with each level, but it does also mean that there's effectively no progress.

    6) Too much situational / little used skills have other, less sweeping solutions.
    Like was done with the warsteeds and the big Champion & Minstrel revamps: give skills different effects in different stances. Or make it so you need to have a certain combination of skills to get a certain effect (like Ancient Craft + Lightning or Burning Embers + Fan the Flames, or the Minstrel Anthems). That way a specific skill can have a different effect in different situations and thus always be useful, gone are the situational skills. This could even give ample opportunity for new 'skills' without requiring a lot of additional buttons.

    7) Difficulty has been consistently reduced over the last updates and can be balanced back were desired by tuning the enemy instead of the player.
    Look at RoI: landscape was very easy, 6-mans, once the pinnacle of good group play, were reduced to introductions into group play. But at the same time the 12-man raid and 3-man challenges were pretty tough. Difficulty can quite well be tuned by messing with the NPCs instead of the players.

    In short: The issues that supposedly triggered the introduction of these trees, could have been fixed by adapting the current system to better deal with them. I believe it would have been better to build on the successes that also are in the current system and fix it's flaws, instead of reinventing it all and hoping the new thing won't develop its own, new share of problems by next year.
    Ingaras, lvl 75 Elven Hunter; and others...
    [URL="http://thewesternalliance.org"]The Western Alliance[/URL], Laurelin
    [i]"The priority now is the store not the game. The store no longer supports the game, its the other way around."[/i]

  22. #847
    Do characters learn any new skills as they level from 85 to 95, or do they just earn more trait points?
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  23. #848
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbullets View Post
    (...)

    Let's stop for a moment and give a hat tip to that guy {Fredolas}. His contributions to the community are stellar, even if he can only contribute in a crippled capacity now.
    With all the gloamy changes that are about to come upon our heads, the sun shines all too clearer with this kind of people. salute Sadly I do not share his strength of character.

  24. #849
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    4,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Um..........this is supposed to be funny, yes?? Cause its not accurate. While you might complete the instance that way, you won't "win" as such. There's too much to do in an EB.
    You don't have to win much, you just have to win. You can let the awards be cumulative rather than cash out and therefore they build to the next reward. Therefore - go afk as often as you want and voila! With no effort at all you will eventually have exceedingly good rewards. All AFK.

    To those that say this will be the same game I disagree, because my ability to interact with the game has changed and the types of content in the game has changed. My minstrel can't be the fun character she was, she has been stripped of half her abilities. The ones she wants are too buried in other trees to get even at level 95. It would be even worse on alts that haven't finished all the deeds and wouldn't have all the points available. Gaming to me is about how I feel when I play, how I feel about my character, how I interact with others. That's been disrupted and essentially broken. I can be put back together in a somewhat similar form but I won't be the whole of the character I had before. Less is not the new more.

    Less fun means spending less time and less money. In the end the game will survive on some level. It's just not the same game, and it's not "my" game.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    GLADDEN: Moochy, 105 Minstrel R10 + alts CRICKHOLLOW: Moochy, 21 Minstrel

  25. #850
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    unknown
    Posts
    1,475
    [QUOTE=Garabrand;6989506]
    The trait trees are actually making our classes *difficult* again.[QUOTE]

    No, it simply makes designing content for our (new) classes easier ...



    Quote Originally Posted by Garabrand View Post
    Lastly, I was really confused about the Big Battles. (...)It may seem boring, and it may seem a waste that you're not using all your great skills to take down scores of enemies, but that's not what happens in war.
    Epic Battles offer random loot and random chances to complete the challenges in order to get your random pick of the lootchest. Is randomness everything this game has to offer now? Sorry but I fail to see how that is worth 40$.



    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Um..........this is supposed to be funny, yes?? Cause its not accurate. While you might complete the instance that way, you won't "win" as such. There's too much to do in an EB.
    And is your post supposed to be funny?

    If you mean by "too much to do" complete all the challenges that only require you to run from point a to b and spend the rest of the time standing around and fire the catapults until you can collect your rewards, then I agree.
    Last edited by Zombielord; Nov 07 2013 at 07:41 PM.

 

 
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