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  1. #776
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by andracy View Post
    An good healer is doing what he is asked to do: healing.
    An awesome healer will do other things as well. healing and Buffing

    Depending the content, I was choosing offensive anthems or defensive anthems.
    Ops, the tank lost aggro. An smart healer will use Call to greatness to you.
    Oh, i forgot some mobs when kiting, i hope that healer will loose his aggro. Yes, I had skills to use them to make your tanking easier. ANthem of compasion, song of s., etc.
    Oh, I am tanking the trolls in lightning wing in Ortanc and i have no block response. Lucky the healer is playing song of aid to help me.
    Oh, can you remove please the corruption from LT? SUre, since minstrel was best coruption removal imo.
    Or please ranged remove coruption from trolls in F&F.
    Change the tale, me as tank i am using too much power. Or i want more vit, i am feeling squishy.

    See, is a lot of stuff you may not be aware, but the one behind you was doing them and make all the life easier. Now, i will be an bot. Healing bot. I will only do healing. And yes, basicaly i have one skill. BC. Is so powerful and with 1,2-1,6 induction critting up to 10k will be the skill used 90%. I dont need anything else more.
    Yes, i will be bored. I cannot buff since i got no points to enter in yellow line to acces anthems.

    I dont make any bad picture. The reality ... well you will see the reality soon. And trust me ... you will want that healers to have the same versatility they had until now. Remember, they are healing you hehe.
    Thank you for recognizing just these points.

    I had so many tricks up my sleeve that as a minstrel I was never bored and always busy - I loved it. Guard running in got CtG and the hammerhand bubble - because it could give a second's respite for opening damage and apply a heal tic - and since I used CtG I didn't draw agro from the immediate heal. Throw SoS on the guard, start to ballad up and hit Song of Aid so the group could get a good running start on their jobs. Now I've opened crit responses, Rally Cry, and raid time has begun.

    I can't use CtG or Song of Aid blue line now and they're too far in yellow to get them.

    The 3 skills I'll need (might have to try just a Bolster spam - after all it does proc, perhaps I could reduce the skill bloat of 3) will be Bolster Courage, Chord, and TS. I have little other purpose in a group as a healer now and certainly no situational assistance to give on the fly in combat.

    On the other hand I may have turned into a god class red line on the minstrel if last night's Mirkwood skirm I did is any indicator. I was taking down 40k skirmish encounter guys in 5-6 hits and routinely hitting 11-15k crits without ballad buffs up. One shotting mobs could get fun. Perhaps I'm the new champ? I know we asked for more dps but it feels...hm. Should be interesting in the moors again when I have twice the will at 95 that I do now at 85. Or it could be a balance bug, since I was hitting less than half that hard on the 85 training dummy in Snowbourn which may have overly aggressive mitigations. Or it could just be totally borked 9 days before release. I'm not really sure at this point.

    Some of us resort to being humorous or sarcastic or a combination of both or other things because we're sad. I know my minstrel feels unfinished, unbalanced and for the most part unneeded for any new content.
    [CENTER]I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    GLADDEN SERVER
    Moochy, 100 Minstrel R10 ~ Barloren, 100 LM R5 ~ Teelara, 100 Cappy ~ The Storm Crusaders[/CENTER]

  2. #777
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    921
    Quote Originally Posted by Namesse View Post
    Do you know message I keep seeing over and over again in the forums? A 23 page, still on topic thread requesting that the dye costs for steeds be lowered, or that at the price being charged, to make it account wide.

    Turbine either has selective hearing or they do what they want anyway.
    I'm just going to guess that the steed dyes sell well enough at the current prices and Turbine expects actual revenue to go down if it's lowered (Sales increase not high enough to make up for the loss per unit).
    It's not beneficial to them to listen in that case. Conversely i guess they see a benefit in the skill changes so they listened . Standard faire really :P
    Like i said just a guess though.
    Nothing here matters.

  3. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorwyn99 View Post
    I'm just going to guess that the steed dyes sell well enough at the current prices and Turbine expects actual revenue to go down if it's lowered (Sales increase not high enough to make up for the loss per unit).
    It's not beneficial to them to listen in that case. Conversely i guess they see a benefit in the skill changes so they listened . Standard faire really :P
    Like i said just a guess though.
    I'm going to guess that HD sales will be lower with the class revamps than if they had spent dev time doing something else, based upon those who said they formerly spent cash for the expac that will now spend TP or not buy at all.

  4. #779
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    Jul 2011
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    921
    Quote Originally Posted by Namesse View Post
    I'm going to guess that HD sales will be lower with the class revamps than if they had spent dev time doing something else, based upon those who said they formerly spent cash for the expac that will now spend TP or not buy at all.
    Possible, just because Turbine sees it as beneficial doesn't mean it is lol.
    Nothing here matters.

  5. #780
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Central Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    1,851
    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    Thank you for recognizing just these points.

    I had so many tricks up my sleeve that as a minstrel I was never bored and always busy - I loved it. Guard running in got CtG and the hammerhand bubble - because it could give a second's respite for opening damage and apply a heal tic - and since I used CtG I didn't draw agro from the immediate heal. Throw SoS on the guard, start to ballad up and hit Song of Aid so the group could get a good running start on their jobs. Now I've opened crit responses, Rally Cry, and raid time has begun.
    yes-subtlety and secret minstrel business is appreciated at that level. Skill and stance flexibility and class knowledge is the reason my newly levelled 85 can heal a 4 man in bells of dale or successfully heal bells tier2C and GG tier 2C in mostly crafted level 80 gear, but many minstrels can't. It's not because i just fill green bars, a la sambrog. I use my tricks to stay alive, keep the group dps up, or mits or resistances, i increase incoming healing and open threat or defeat response skills at key moments, I kite adds to the tanks and drop my aggro and leave them at the tanks feet, I have fun!
    and because some people choose not to try this, they think they have skill bloat, and so i won't be able to do this anymore, either.. this is the reason some of us are so sad.

  6. #781
    just because some people don't use some skills don't mean its skill bloat heck i remember stance dancing on my champ

  7. #782
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    St Louis Mo
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    So.. being as it is Beta and all, I know things will still change and get polished before release date. However, once things go live, do we expect to have massive class revisions when us unwashed masses get a real look at the classes? As some of you know, I write up a pretty expansive guide for wardens, and also have spreadsheets to figure stats, getting pretty close to the end results of adding 1 pt End to HP/Mits/Resists/etc. In Beta, its pretty much useless to compile all that data.

  8. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen1981 View Post
    just because some people don't use some skills don't mean its skill bloat heck i remember stance dancing on my champ
    Look at the bright side; it'll be so macro friendly now we can watch TV with little interaction needed from us

  9. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Skippa View Post
    Look at the bright side; it'll be so macro friendly now we can watch TV with little interaction needed from us
    not very excited about that

  10. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen1981 View Post
    not very excited about that
    Just fire up an 'Epic Battle' and go afk. You will win. That is pretty exciting right?
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    http://cruciblegaming.com

  11. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post
    Just fire up an 'Epic Battle' and go afk. You will win. That is pretty exciting right?
    lol that don't sound exciting either

  12. #787
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    1,250
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post
    Just fire up an 'Epic Battle' and go afk. You will win. That is pretty exciting right?
    Um..........this is supposed to be funny, yes?? Cause its not accurate. While you might complete the instance that way, you won't "win" as such. There's too much to do in an EB.

  13. #788
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    Apr 2009
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    515
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post
    Just fire up an 'Epic Battle' and go afk. You will win. That is pretty exciting right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Um..........this is supposed to be funny, yes?? Cause its not accurate. While you might complete the instance that way, you won't "win" as such. There's too much to do in an EB.
    I find it quite ridiculous that you can go AFK in an instance/end game content and not be killed within a minute of doing so. You may not "win", but you certainly didn't lose either.

  14. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    So.. being as it is Beta and all, I know things will still change and get polished before release date. However, once things go live, do we expect to have massive class revisions when us unwashed masses get a real look at the classes? As some of you know, I write up a pretty expansive guide for wardens, and also have spreadsheets to figure stats, getting pretty close to the end results of adding 1 pt End to HP/Mits/Resists/etc. In Beta, its pretty much useless to compile all that data.
    I'm not sure about "massive" changes, but there will definitely be some post-launch changes, particularly for classes that did not get as much attention as others. The true effect of the changes won't really be known until they hit live and are played by the entire player base, and I am sure there will be plenty of skill and trait tweaking, not to mention balance changes for stuff like the Moors, etc. The devs said they are already compiling a "to do" list for a post-launch patch.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 100 - Riddermark - The Guild / Keepers of the Palantiri

  15. #790
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    Aug 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen1981 View Post
    just because some people don't use some skills don't mean its skill bloat heck i remember stance dancing on my champ
    I've said this several times before, but the skill bloat isn't just about what's on someone's bar. It's about:

    • Development and the ability to create challenging balanced content each expansion
    • Progression and the ability to give the classes "somewhere to go from here" and a sense of progression each level cap increase
    • Roles and the fact that there was so much crossover and potency that group content became a joke, landscape content even more pathetic
    • Skillbars that had a lot of repetition or ho-hum skills that didn't meaningfully add to the equation as much as they should
    • Imbalance among the classes, some which were extremely potent and others which had become almost an afterthought

    If we are to get to Mordor, there will be several expansions between then and now, and more level cap increases. The classes were already bloated in their potency, breadth and versatility, and the skillbars reflected that. The classes simply could not continue on the path they were on and still provide end-gamers with any meaningful sense of progression or challenge. Grinding for better gear is not progression, it's upgrading your gear.

    I know those who hate the class changes want to keep this discussion about "people who don't know how to play their classes and don't understand how bad this is" or "I loved my skillbars they way they were, remove some from yours if you don't like it" and all the other snappy, inaccurate one-liners and insults that keep getting thrown around, but I've seen no opponent to the changes coherently and comprehensively address the issues listed above. For this reason I have not yet been fully convinced that there is a solid argument against the changes beyond "I don't want things to change." Which in itself may have validity, but nonetheless doesn't resolve the very real dead end the classes have hit and, by extension, development had hit.

    Is there possibly a better way the list above could have been addressed by Turbine? Of course. Any problem can be approached in a broad variety of ways, and some of the alternate routes might have been more palatable to some of the players. We will never really know, because we have what we have and this approach is likely to be fine-tuned from here, not scrapped.

    I'm sure Turbine put a lot of thought into how this system should be approached, based on other development they've done and what they feel works, based on the direction they want to take the rest of the expansions in, based on resolving their biggest headaches, based on the business and staffing realities they're dealing with, based on what they feel will enable them to make us happy down the road with the type of content we've been clamouring for. I know others don't, but I do trust them to make these decisions. Otherwise, what the heck am I doing here at all?

    I've played these changes extensively - EXTENSIVELY - over the past few months, and while they are disorienting at first, and while they've definitely limited the enjoyability of my rotations in some builds, the current beta build is actually fun, potent and best of all, exciting to build on as I level. For me, tweaking my playing style for a couple levels is a very small price to pay for the benefits these changes are going to bring us in the long run.

    I realize some classes are in a more polished state than others, but years of experiencing changes to the game tells me that Turbine WILL resolve those issues in future updates. Yeah, it really sucks that some classes didn't get the dev love they deserved, but Turbine will make it right, they always have in the past. After all, there are so many people who are so in love with where their characters are right now, they hate and dread the upcoming changes.

  16. #791
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    Apr 2011
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    1,250
    Quote Originally Posted by Sthrax View Post
    I find it quite ridiculous that you can go AFK in an instance/end game content and not be killed within a minute of doing so. You may not "win", but you certainly didn't lose either.
    I'm not sure you CAN go afk without being killed. Really, some of this has just gotten hugely ridiculous.

  17. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by Sthrax View Post
    I find it quite ridiculous that you can go AFK in an instance/end game content and not be killed within a minute of doing so. You may not "win", but you certainly didn't lose either.
    I would call completing the instance a win. Sure, you may not have gotten rewarded as much in the end because you didn't do all the little side things but if the instance has been completed, you met your base objective and that is a win.

    Regardless of whether anyone else considers completion a win or not is not my point. My point is as Shtrax states... it's dumb that this can even be a possibility.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    http://cruciblegaming.com

  18. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    I'm not sure you CAN go afk without being killed. Really, some of this has just gotten hugely ridiculous.
    I get the sense that there's an element of trolling entering into things now. I mean, some of the things being said are just so blatantly false, I don't understand why they're even being said, except maybe out of frustration, or a desire to poison this thread and the expansion for those who weren't in beta?

  19. #794
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    I get the sense that there's an element of trolling entering into things now. I mean, some of the things being said are just so blatantly false, I don't understand why they're even being said, except maybe out of frustration, or a desire to poison this thread and the expansion for those who weren't in beta?
    I have to say that I didn't take it all the way to the end to see, but there was one point where I had started the epic battle and gotten called away from the computer just after the encounter started. I returned 10-15 minutes later to find my toon unharmed, while orcs were charging NPCs all around me. That is very troubling to me.

    In another occasion, my guardian could run down below the aggro range of the friendly NPCs to try to intercept orcs as they were charging up towards the walls. I would hit them. I would try to use my taunt. They would just keep going. My guard did not exist to them. The NPCs were killing them faster than I could get, at best, two hits off. At the core (outside of the little embedded minigames), my guardian DID NOT need to be present at the battle. He made absolutely no difference in what was going on around him.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    http://cruciblegaming.com

  20. #795
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    Jun 2010
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    7,583
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    I'm not sure you CAN go afk without being killed. Really, some of this has just gotten hugely ridiculous.
    there were a number of occasions where this was indeed possible. It was apparently possible again in 5.1 in at least once instance. It is however, unlikely to be true for long, and hopefully not for launch.
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
    Delego-L85 Hunter ; Stodden-L51-Captain ; Edhul-L61-Loremaster
    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  21. #796
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Michigan
    Posts
    553
    im ok with all the changes, the devs are just doing their jobs that they get paid to do. I had no problems finding the proper threads to post in. Plus, i don't mind the trait trees because back when lotro first came out and we all went to run the first dungeon a lot of folks including me were running back to the bard in town to go re-spec before we tried again. how many times did your capt in the group have to step out of the instance to go re summon a player who went to re-spec? we had to re-spec back then, we had to re-spec when Myrkwood dungeons came out and we will have to re spec when when future dungeons or instances are put out. we will always have to find out what works and what doesn't work. heck in moria the kin i was in had to spec 1 way for the watcher fights, then go re-spec other ways for the grands stairs and other dungeons. so in my opinion their is no reason to get bent about the class trees because now we can swap between specs and don't gotta run all the way back to a bard to do it. just wait for no combat and re-spec and their is no cool down for respecting.

    cyas all in game :-)
    Last edited by Gagmuk; Nov 07 2013 at 03:12 PM.

  22. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    I'm not sure you CAN go afk without being killed. Really, some of this has just gotten hugely ridiculous.
    I've 'finished' a Big Battle without ever killing a single mob, diffusing a bomb, using siege equipment, or otherwise interacting with my surroundings. Yes, I was at the keyboard running around checking things out so not technically AFK, but I saw no reason why I would have been killed if I hadn't. The credit I received for this wasn't nearly as good as I got for actually participating, but it also wasn't nearly as low as I would have expected (I got higher than bronze level completion in several things).

    Really, I'm not sure why you are making things up, and the amount of things being fabricating in these and other threads that is separate from reality has just gotten hugely ridiculous.

  23. #798
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    there were a number of occasions where this was indeed possible. It was apparently possible again in 5.1 in at least once instance. It is however, unlikely to be true for long, and hopefully not for launch.
    It'll be interesting to see what the "fix" is.

    Obviously they can't change the outcome of what happened at Helm's Deep so working us into the mix had to have some challenges... but... wow.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    http://cruciblegaming.com

  24. #799
    "To poison the pl who were notin beta."

    This frase opened up a whole new world of finger pointing.

    Do you know path:
    - game company have bad idea, for whatever reason, never for costs cuts, never that,
    - beta testers say its not a good idea
    - who are not happy are told that company does not provide for minoroty, and pls shut up
    - game goes live, company gets busted, or have servere survival issues
    - somewhere, somehow, someone gets the brand new idea.. fans killed us in egotrip, they posioned the rest..

    I am not posting this to get credit or look smart or whatever.
    I am sad. My toons are gone. They where good toons.
    I am sad.

  25. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    I've said this several times before, but the skill bloat isn't just about what's on someone's bar. It's about:

    • Development and the ability to create challenging balanced content each expansion
    • Progression and the ability to give the classes "somewhere to go from here" and a sense of progression each level cap increase
    • Roles and the fact that there was so much crossover and potency that group content became a joke, landscape content even more pathetic
    • Skillbars that had a lot of repetition or ho-hum skills that didn't meaningfully add to the equation as much as they should
    • Imbalance among the classes, some which were extremely potent and others which had become almost an afterthought

    If we are to get to Mordor, there will be several expansions between then and now, and more level cap increases. The classes were already bloated in their potency, breadth and versatility, and the skillbars reflected that. The classes simply could not continue on the path they were on and still provide end-gamers with any meaningful sense of progression or challenge. Grinding for better gear is not progression, it's upgrading your gear.

    I know those who hate the class changes want to keep this discussion about "people who don't know how to play their classes and don't understand how bad this is" or "I loved my skillbars they way they were, remove some from yours if you don't like it" and all the other snappy, inaccurate one-liners and insults that keep getting thrown around, but I've seen no opponent to the changes coherently and comprehensively address the issues listed above. For this reason I have not yet been fully convinced that there is a solid argument against the changes beyond "I don't want things to change." Which in itself may have validity, but nonetheless doesn't resolve the very real dead end the classes have hit and, by extension, development had hit.

    Is there possibly a better way the list above could have been addressed by Turbine? Of course. Any problem can be approached in a broad variety of ways, and some of the alternate routes might have been more palatable to some of the players. We will never really know, because we have what we have and this approach is likely to be fine-tuned from here, not scrapped.

    I'm sure Turbine put a lot of thought into how this system should be approached, based on other development they've done and what they feel works, based on the direction they want to take the rest of the expansions in, based on resolving their biggest headaches, based on the business and staffing realities they're dealing with, based on what they feel will enable them to make us happy down the road with the type of content we've been clamouring for. I know others don't, but I do trust them to make these decisions. Otherwise, what the heck am I doing here at all?

    I've played these changes extensively - EXTENSIVELY - over the past few months, and while they are disorienting at first, and while they've definitely limited the enjoyability of my rotations in some builds, the current beta build is actually fun, potent and best of all, exciting to build on as I level. For me, tweaking my playing style for a couple levels is a very small price to pay for the benefits these changes are going to bring us in the long run.

    I realize some classes are in a more polished state than others, but years of experiencing changes to the game tells me that Turbine WILL resolve those issues in future updates. Yeah, it really sucks that some classes didn't get the dev love they deserved, but Turbine will make it right, they always have in the past. After all, there are so many people who are so in love with where their characters are right now, they hate and dread the upcoming changes.
    you know i might have agree with this if they were more open to changing the 2 point penalty but at the current way things are i cannot agree with it or at least maybe 10 more skill points

 

 
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