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  1. #701
    Well I was not opposed to trait trees really, but now I also have my doubts that this new system is really giving us choices, it smells a bit like the WoW's cataclysm trees, that essentially demanded you to focus on one of the three intended roles, and only when you maxed it you may put some leftover points elsewhere. Guess they already killed it for good reasons.

    I haven't seen all the tree details yet, but I thought the original idea was to NOT leave us basically with choice A, B and C (or red, blue and yellow, whatever) but to force us to forego some abilities that WE choose within reasonable limits. Right now, the cap-stones require us slot 5 of 8 traits of one color, and pick two random others. It really isn't THAT much choice, like, two traits of one color were usually for non-essential skills anyway and further reduced the choice, so one would assume increasing the viable build variety is rather easy.

    Instead, the pure choice of the primary tree has a signifficant effect on what you can do, and further customization is penalized wherever possible. Seems like broken by design, because IMHO, it would've been possible to force choices of which skills to unlock/strengthen without these artifical penalties and three fixed exclusive starting skill sets associated with the trees.

    For example, reading that Mischievous Glee is only available if you decide to be a Mischief Maker Burglar pretty much killed much of my anticipation for all the overdue love put into the class...though apparently there's other self-healing procs available, but apparently that's also pretty commonplace now. Hope not.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    I don't know if he actually participated in the breach of NDA
    Then maybe you should find out....

    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    but it's a much more plausible explanation than anything else.
    .....before heavily implying it.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx3d View Post
    Well I was not opposed to trait trees really, but now I also have my doubts that this new system is really giving us choices, it smells a bit like the WoW's cataclysm trees, that essentially demanded you to focus on one of the three intended roles, and only when you maxed it you may put some leftover points elsewhere. Guess they already killed it for good reasons.

    I haven't seen all the tree details yet, but I thought the original idea was to NOT leave us basically with choice A, B and C (or red, blue and yellow, whatever) but to force us to forego some abilities that WE choose within reasonable limits. Right now, the cap-stones require us slot 5 of 8 traits of one color, and pick two random others. It really isn't THAT much choice, like, two traits of one color were usually for non-essential skills anyway and further reduced the choice, so one would assume increasing the viable build variety is rather easy.

    Instead, the pure choice of the primary tree has a signifficant effect on what you can do, and further customization is penalized wherever possible. Seems like broken by design, because IMHO, it would've been possible to force choices of which skills to unlock/strengthen without these artifical penalties and three fixed exclusive starting skill sets associated with the trees.

    For example, reading that Mischievous Glee is only available if you decide to be a Mischief Maker Burglar pretty much killed much of my anticipation for all the overdue love put into the class...though apparently there's other self-healing procs available, but apparently that's also pretty commonplace now. Hope not.
    You do not have to trait down a specific tree. I believe the points required to hit cap stone in a line it 31 I think, which will over half at launch and under half at level 95 if you are maxed out on points. That being said I have built some very viable build outs at level 91 and not spending 31 points in any single tree.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000bd0ff/signature.png]Aidus[/charsig]

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  4. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Or use turbine points. You don't have to pay for those. Yes the price is high to grind it out but it's a small amount for VIPs (9 months of subbing earns the TP you need, and VIPs have no need to use TP anywhere else but to get an expansion).
    I'm a lifer but I routinely use TP for consumables, scrolls, all the things I needed for my raiding minstrel and a couple alts. I also purchased TP routinely to feed my habit. I sure as heck didn't have 9 months of TP laying around.

    Having no need to use TP anywhere is in the eye of the beholder. I needed the things I purchased because I have a full time job as well as being a single mom and I didn't have the time to grind out everything for my LIs and my character.

    I know others who loved the cosmetics, loved the horses, loved all the other items in the game that were available in the store. Theyd didn't hoard theirs either.

    Perhaps you're suggesting we should wait 9 months before buying the expansion? Could be - I downloaded EQII and started playing it last night with a friend.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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  5. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    If any of you were around in the Golden Age of SoA, you might remember when the tank died, so did the fellowship p
    Not always! I remember having the day saved heroically when this happened, I even did it once myself on a captain.
    However I agree with some the sentiment, it was a lot harder. I did not do too many instances back then because they were HARD and group leaders were extremely picky about inviting someone they didn't know. But most of the fun back then for me came from being adaptable instead of conforming to a single role. It was Moria that tried to cram everyone into stereotypes, cloning the style from other games. Maybe your experience was true for raids, but raids have always come with immense peer pressure to conform to approved roles and builds. In the larger game though adaptability was more important, when we had viable PUGs comprised of complete strangers doing content they had never attempted before and succeeding (maybe with some wipes at first but a wipe is not a failure). Now this is craming us back into the roles even more tightly, being even more like those other games, or like dedicated raid groups.

  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runesi_EU View Post
    In HD assuming the RK traits for dps and the captain isn't traited for heals I have to rely on myself more.
    There are still captain heals even if the captain is traited for DPS. It just won't be the super strong captain heals that you can get now, it'll be more like captain as backup healer on the front lines that we had in Shadows of Angmar or Moria; enough to keep things together until the main healer is rezzed and standing, enough to reduce the stress of being main healer, enough that the main healer can focus on main tank only.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    OTOH, he was active on the Site-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named. Said Unnameable Site was involved in a breach of Beta NDA, and many players have received bans as a result. I don't know if he actually participated in the breach of NDA, or indeed if that's the actual reason for his ban, but it's a much more plausible explanation than anything else.
    Imagine that the Mods of the forbidden site took down the offending posts when it was brought to their attention that someone had posted material that breached the Beta NDA on thier site - because they did. So, if free association is a ban-worthy offense, Count me in. Without Fredelas' guide to Hytbold, I might have opened a vein...

    It has taken me 6.5 years to get to 100 posts in the official forums. If this is where we land as an official community, count me out.

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    You do not have to trait down a specific tree. I believe the points required to hit cap stone in a line it 31 I think, which will over half at launch and under half at level 95 if you are maxed out on points. That being said I have built some very viable build outs at level 91 and not spending 31 points in any single tree.
    Yes I'm aware that we don't *need* to fully go down one tree, it just seems to make very little sense to not do so, because spending points in other trees is heavily penalized. Having to spend less than half the points to reach the bottom of one tree is one major design flaw, IMHO.

    Anyway, I hope you're right and there are possiblilities for hybrid builds that don't just totally cripple your character...

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by rctman View Post
    Imagine that the Mods of the forbidden site took down the offending posts when it was brought to their attention that someone had posted material that breached the Beta NDA on thier site - because they did. So, if free association is a ban-worthy offense, Count me in. Without Fredelas' guide to Hytbold, I might have opened a vein...

    It has taken me 6.5 years to get to 100 posts in the official forums. If this is where we land as an official community, count me out.
    Doesn't matter whether took it down or not the people involved broke the NDA which calls for a ban. Pretty cut and dry, doesn't matter who posted it but if you took part in it your done.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Firemane0 View Post
    Doesn't matter whether took it down or not the people involved broke the NDA which calls for a ban. Pretty cut and dry, doesn't matter who posted it but if you took part in it your done.
    So you are insinuating that he took part in it? Prove it. If he got banned simply by having an account on another forum that's a whole nuther kettle of fish.

    EDIT
    I have an account on mmorpg.com, that mean if some idiot posts an NDA violation on that site; I get banned just because I have an account there?

  11. #711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyveil View Post
    This skill bloat in LOTRO is insane. I honestly can't believe how anybody (let alone so many) are defending them.
    True. Even at level 50 before Moria was release, my minstrel had 3 and a half tool bars filled with skills, not counting the two I put on the side with consumables and travel and emote skills. And I actually USED all those skills and put them to good use, solo or in group content. Before Mirkwood it was completely full, literally no room whatsoever for a new skill. But we did get new skills, so I had to start pulling off infrequently used stuff (very few fit that category).

    The thing is having fewer skills is good. However which skills you use is important. You can dump all those skills from Moria and later and be just fine. But important core skills being dropped really hurts, especially if it limites the variety of actions you could do and you're required to pick a limited role before you can use them. Ie, captain keeps Fighting Withdrawal (lower aggro temporarily) for all builds however Last Stand was removed unless you're Leader of Men; both are hopefully used infrequently however Last Stand used to be considered a key feature of Captain, so we're left with a "retreat!" skill all the time but the "I'll save you!" skill is restricted which doesn't feel very captainy.

  12. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly View Post
    Would any of you beta players recommend that we (or rather I) wait until Nov 18 to roll a new character?
    It's only 2 weeks away. You don't get your first trait point until level 7 anyway. I don't know when you're required to pick a specialization but you won't get your first specialization bonus until you have spent 5 points. So I honestly think that your game play will not change in any significant way unless you manage to level extremely fast (with the 100% bonus this might accidentally happen though).

    If it were me I would get another stone of tortoise but only because not leveling fast is important to me and because I have many chests full of unused TP.

    Actually, regardless of changes to class system, I would NOT recommend a new character until that 100% xp bonus goes away!

  13. #713
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    When it comes to having less skills than we do now: I actually like having lots of skills, even though I don't use all of them. If they do something with an explanation about stats, written in too complicated English, then I have no idea how or when to use the skill. Not that I mind other people having all the skills I don't use

    Still very worried about my minstrels though, since I know that even when things have been changed for the better, they can be made worse again before going live. Still, I'm quite curious to see all the new stuff


    Anyway, about this skill tree business that "the players didn't ask for": I think I remember Turbine saying that they needed to do this change because it was getting harder and harder to make new content to fit the way the classes work now, and that it would be less messy if they had skill trees instead? Not sure though, sorry


    Quote Originally Posted by Cithryth View Post
    I thought maybe some would appreciate being able to see a 'side by side' comparison (as it were) of live gameplay vs the same gameplay in beta. First I copied my lvl 26 LM over to the beta server. Then I recorded playing Trouble in Tuckborough first on Windfola and then doing the same in beta:

    Beta vs Live - Solo LM Skirmish

    I figured some would be interested in seeing how the changes effect low level characters and the kinds of gameplay changes they can expect to see. Before recording I had not looked at the LM changes at all and so this was kind of a "what will it be like on Nov 18" kind of thing.

    Of course the usual disclaimer: anything and everything in the beta footage is subject to change between now and Nov 18.
    Thank you for posting that video

    I have a loremaster that I haven't played much, he's leveled mostly through festival quests. I had problems getting accustomed to his skills and it took me until Lv30 to actually start having a bit of fun XD
    The beta LM as it is now looks a bit more fun for me at low levels, so I'm looking forward to that
    ;) [COLOR="#9999ff"]“There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading to the same place, so it doesn’t matter which path you take. The only person wasting time is the one who runs around the mountain, telling everyone that his or her path is wrong.” ~ Hindu Proverb[/COLOR]

  14. #714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naraca View Post
    Well, this helps to explain the many posts from beta testers in this thread noting that their feedback was ignored. It's pretty easy to ignore criticism if you funnel it all into one thread. Sounds like the kind of response which would lead a consistently polite poster to become this exasperated. And that's the kind of response I've seen all through this thread, as well.

    Was Fredelas seriously banned for that post? Because whoever did that has serious ego issues.
    Completely agree.


    *SALUTE* Fredelas

  15. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post

    OTOH, he was active on the Site-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named. Said Unnameable Site was involved in a breach of Beta NDA, and many players have received bans as a result. I don't know if he actually participated in the breach of NDA, or indeed if that's the actual reason for his ban, but it's a much more plausible explanation than anything else.

    But while we're on the subject of bans, it might be a good time to remind people of point 13 from the Community Guidelines. >.>



    How positively Orwellian.....quilt by association....

    God help us all....

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Skippa View Post
    So you are insinuating that he took part in it? Prove it. If he got banned simply by having an account on another forum that's a whole nuther kettle of fish.

    EDIT
    I have an account on mmorpg.com, that mean if some idiot posts an NDA violation on that site; I get banned just because I have an account there?
    I can't prove that he did anymore then you can prove that he didn't but I do know this: they are very serious when it comes to the NDA and the people who break them and if people got all hot headed and "passionate" as they call it over there be it publically or via Pm when the NDA was in effect then so sad too bad.

    Of course people tend to forget repeated the mountain of abuse they throw at a Dev over time and take it for granted. We have no idea how many infractions this poster had against them and lets not forget that that post 440 is very misleading and meant to mislead those who were not in beta, I was in beta, I was in chat when some of this occurred and i do know what is being claimed is FALSE and again is players taking a simple statement and turning it into a personal attack by the devs/mods towards the community. The community is toxic and it is toxic for this very reason....

    I can't imagine how it feels as a member of the Turbine staff to have to slowly watch the community slowly disintegrate over the actions of a VERY vocal minority, to have anything they due turned into a sinister plot.

  17. #717
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    There were plenty of people who appreciated the depth of skills in LotRO. It's rather easy to say the masses called for skill reduction when it's the inevitable future. It's also completely impossible to confirm that most LotRO players wanted said changes. I know lots of LotRO players. None of them were presented with an avenue for feedback regarding skill bloat. This decision was made by the developer alone, for reasons we can only suspect. If bloat were indeed the issue for some (definitely not all and NONE of the players I know), what would be wrong with putting the skills you want on your bar and leaving the rest alone? IMO, something like that would satisfy the majority.

    If a player doesn't want to learn how to use "all those" skills, they also wouldn't be likely to want to participate in content requiring "all those" skills either. The argument has nothing to do with resistence to change. Plenty of skill revamp detractors have seen this game go through far more change than some of the people telling them why they are supposedly resisting. I find that comical. Anyone who's still around here after 4+ years has endured a heck of a lot of change, but newer folks wouldn't even know the half of it.

    It is what it is... But this is indeed the sort of thing that can destroy a game.
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  18. #718
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodarin View Post
    Trying to reinvent the game every time you added a few levels and called it an 'expansion' is what killed it in the first place.
    There is immense pressure that every level cap increase provides stupendous changes in class abilities or strengths. This pressure comes from players. Most people seem to be disappointed if they get 10 more levels and then find out that nothing has changed. Personally I'd rather just get no levels at all, I don't really see the point anymore. But the pressure is there and thus there is "inflation" of a sort.

    Add yet more pressure from the players who demand new skills periodically. They want to visit the class trainer! We have more skills than other MMOs I've tried and yet players say loudly that they want more. It doesn't feel like an advancement for them if it's merely scaling up.

    So part of the problem is that Turbine writes themselves into corners at times. Then they really have to shake things up to give it room to inflate some more. Ie, levels 1 through 50 were planned out very well, however they were planned as if 50 were the maximum level and was going to remain that level for a very long time (or at least far enough away to not worry about). Thus adding a mere ten levels required some big changes; legendary items, revamping all the traits and shoving them into sets, handing out some really powerful armor, and so forth. Then in Mirkwood they discovered the armor was too powerful, the gap between casual players and raiders was too wide, and so the "upgrades" were really side-grades. Now it seems what we have is that they need to add more skills, and yet we have no room for more skills.

    (Compare to say WoW, where skills did not automatically scale up as you leveled, instead you had to visit the class trainer to get stronger versions of your old skills! Thus even though you were not really gaining anything new, you felt like it was an advancement. So any level that ended in a 5 or 0 had a noticeable bump up in effectiveness. Whereas in this game the skill effectiveness scales up automatically and few players notice it.)

    Also this is nothing unique to LotRO. Amost all MMOs provide class and skill shakeups periodically. Sometime's it's for PvE problems, sometimes for PvP balance, and sometimes no obvious reason is seen. But class and build changes are a staple of the MMO genere.

    In a PvE game like this you should never ever hear about people complaing about their skill bars.
    Except that in a PvE game most players want to hear that ding, want to get the new skills, and want to see something change. I think it's all fluff myself but it's that constant periodic positive feedback that keeps players coming back whenever Pavlov rings a bell.

  19. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by TKH View Post
    They have become a capstone in yellow tree, which enable different stat-increasing buff depending on which stance you are in.
    Which means these are lost to any minstrel not taking this specialization, or not high enough level to get the capstone. Whereas currently we get these at level 22, which will be impossible in the new system. Not content to be a healbot that also buffs and can do some damage, they're now just healbots and may as well be clones from other MMOs.

    But this is minstrel, we're all seriously hoping there's a major and radical redesign in 12.1 update. Even non minstrels should be hoping for this if they want minstrels to remain in the game.

  20. #720
    Quote Originally Posted by Firemane0 View Post
    I can't prove that he did anymore then you can prove that he didn't but I do know this: they are very serious when it comes to the NDA and the people who break them and if people got all hot headed and "passionate" as they call it over there be it publically or via Pm when the NDA was in effect then so sad too bad.

    Of course people tend to forget repeated the mountain of abuse they throw at a Dev over time and take it for granted. We have no idea how many infractions this poster had against them and lets not forget that that post 440 is very misleading and meant to mislead those who were not in beta, I was in beta, I was in chat when some of this occurred and i do know what is being claimed is FALSE and again is players taking a simple statement and turning it into a personal attack by the devs/mods towards the community. The community is toxic and it is toxic for this very reason....

    I can't imagine how it feels as a member of the Turbine staff to have to slowly watch the community slowly disintegrate over the actions of a VERY vocal minority, to have anything they due turned into a sinister plot.
    When did Fred "abuse" a dev? I missed that one or was it in the beta forums? I skipped beta this time around. I only read the guard boards(time for a new hobby) But having had discussions(read arguments) with him before he always came across to me as critical not derogatory, big dif.

    As far as the community becoming toxic it didn't happen in a vacuum.

  21. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemane0 View Post
    is one of the things that makes this community toxic.
    But just one of them. I see it coming from several directions. I've been in betas before and they were never toxic.

    I am glad I didn't apply for beta this time around, or the council, or palantir, or Sam's Tater Club. I'm glad to be sitting on the sidelines. Things just seem very very wrong.

  22. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    But just one of them. I see it coming from several directions. I've been in betas before and they were never toxic.

    I am glad I didn't apply for beta this time around, or the council, or palantir, or Sam's Tater Club. I'm glad to be sitting on the sidelines. Things just seem very very wrong.
    But what about Fried Taters and Mustard?!

  23. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feleg View Post
    Just to clarify - this guy got banned because he was active on another Site? This seems a poor excuse.
    The impression I got was that a large amount of the BETA information was constantly being copied and pasted to the other site and that the proper research was being done to identify individuals involved in the copies. There are people who are members of the other site who did not get a ban over here. So obviously, simply being active is not enough to get you banned.

    I have no idea if the individual in question was part of that group and I am not trying to imply that was the case. It would be irresponsible to make such assumptions without evidence.

  24. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx3d View Post
    Yes I'm aware that we don't *need* to fully go down one tree, it just seems to make very little sense to not do so, because spending points in other trees is heavily penalized. Having to spend less than half the points to reach the bottom of one tree is one major design flaw, IMHO.

    Anyway, I hope you're right and there are possiblilities for hybrid builds that don't just totally cripple your character...
    It totally depends on what traits you want out of a specific tree. I was wrong the reach capstone it takes 35 points and at level 91 I can dip into the other lines if I skip what I dont want. It is not as flexible as I would like but not as crippling as others express, at least in my perspective. It will take more thought and require tougher decision, than grabbing 7 traits and slotting them that is completely true.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000bd0ff/signature.png]Aidus[/charsig]

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  25. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firemane0 View Post
    I can't prove that he did anymore then you can prove that he didn't
    So you imply he broke the NDA ( or was somehow 'involved' in it, whatever that is supposed to mean ) and it's up to others to prove he didn't. Where I come from, you don't throw around allegations and then say 'ah well you can't prove they didn't do it can you?'. If you have evidence he broke the NDA in any shape or form, you should say. If not, you should admit there is no evidence whatsoever that Fredelas was involved in breaking the NDA and stop throwing baseless dirt. Apparently you don't see baseless accusations as toxic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firemane0 View Post
    I can't imagine how it feels as a member of the Turbine staff to have to slowly watch the community slowly disintegrate over the actions of a VERY vocal minority, to have anything they due turned into a sinister plot.
    Maybe you can imagine what it's like to be accused of something without any evidence, and yet be unable to respond to refute those claims. Mob justice at its finest.

 

 
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