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  1. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Sthrax View Post
    I think it had more to do with the feared backlash at closing the poll threads that were clearly critical of the new class system rather than them getting useful feedback. After all, they told us the system was here to stay. Period. And the off-spec penalty was here to stay. Period. Not much wiggle room for feedback that by and large said either start over or it needs a massive overhaul.
    this why feedback in beta was laughable cause they were not even willing to discuss the 2 point penalty not to mention stuff like deadly precision stuck behind a wall of needing critical eye to even get deadly precision and 504 critical rating is laughable which critical eye now has 5 ranks now

  2. #577
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    I can only speculate on the reasons, because I can't read Sapience's mind, but I always assumed that the beta polls were only allowed to a) avoid the appearance of "squelching" negative opinions and b) as a "lightning rod" for the same, to give those who disliked the changes a place to express themselves without derailing other discussions.
    Furtim's "B" answer is the most accurate.

  3. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    Just because a person disagrees with a subject doesn't mean that they automatically "derail" the topic being discussed. If a good discussion only has one view point, you are not really having a discussion, your listening to a speech.
    No, but expressing a negative opinion about out-of-spec trait points in a thread about the Edoras epics (just to give an example, I'm not literally claiming that this happened) is derailing. Thus the usefulness of a centralised thread where people can go to register their negative opinions.
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  4. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    No, but expressing a negative opinion about out-of-spec trait points in a thread about the Edoras epics (just to give an example, I'm not literally claiming that this happened) is derailing. Thus the usefulness of a centralised thread where people can go to register their negative opinions.
    Just so you understand your bias, so would posting positive comments about trait points in an Edoras post possibly derail the discussion.
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  5. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    When people say "no one asked for this", they overlook how many times people have made this same type of comment that you're making here. It's something we had seen a lot of in various forms. Everything from there are too many skills, to the skills felt weak, or when we increased the cap there were complaints that there was nothing new just unexciting 'enhanced' skills or that when people took a break they came back to a screen filled with skills they couldn't remember how to use.

    All of that feedback sent a very clear message.
    Thank you Sapience, and I am definitely not alone. I know numerous veteran players who are looking forward to the changes (and agree with the reasoning) they just never post on the forums.
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  6. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Actually, Sab's point about polls is valid. The "polls" that occurred during Beta were put forth as "Wholly accurate" at some 300 opinions. I don't have actual player numbers, but Facebook shows 285,000 "likes". If even half those people play, and half of THEM were in Beta 300 doesn't really count for much. This is why these polls are inaccurate. Heck, if even 10K were in Beta 300 is not so much.
    Interesting.
    You base an argument on the usefulness of the polls on useless "math" using the pinnacle of uselessness in ways of feedback (Failbook "Likes").

    Not that I have seen the polls. I have only read the thread. And what I get from it is pretty much an indication of trouble ahead.

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  7. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyveil View Post
    Thank you Sapience, and I am definitely not alone. I know numerous veteran players who are looking forward to the changes (and agree with the reasoning) they just never post on the forums.
    FWIW, I know numerous veteran players who loathe the changes (and disagree with the reasoning) they just never post on the forums. Funny how that works out...

  8. #583
    i know everyone in my kin hates these changes all together

  9. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by Sthrax View Post
    Player feedback, despite what they say, isn't what drove this change. The old system would never have worked with Big Battles upscaling characters from level 10- players wouldn't have the skills they'd need to be able to use as a scaled 95 in order to perform their class roles. This change was done so they could make upscaling in Big Battles work, and with upscaling hopefully sell more copies of the expansion to new players who wouldn't have bought it if Big Battles were for 95 only.
    Upscaled players only have access to the skills they have at their "real" level so while they can do Big Battles, it isn't the same as having a true level 95 character. The skills they are more powerful.

  10. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    Just so you understand your bias, so would posting positive comments about trait points in an Edoras post possibly derail the discussion.
    And I never claimed otherwise, I was just using an example. In practice, the poll threads were started and largely posted in by people who hated the changes -- and it'll be funny if anybody tries to contradict this, because "the poll results were extremely negative" has been stated here many, many times and never disputed by anyone so far --, but anybody who had a simple "yes or no" opinion could have (and presumably did, since most of the official feedback threads were fairly "clean" after the poll threads went up) used them instead of cluttering other threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sthrax View Post
    FWIW, I know numerous veteran players who loathe the changes (and disagree with the reasoning) they just never post on the forums. Funny how that works out...
    The vast, vast, vast majority of players don't post on the forums. So I'm not surprised that you can find a ton of people who dislike the changes who don't post on the forums.

    It's also amusing that you state this like it means anything. If you think it does, I'll sit you down and tell you all about my insanely hot girlfriend from Canada some day.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  11. #586
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    As a beta gal multiple gamer, my recommendation is: If you want to make a new character, getting through the intro will not see too many changes, so even if you are concerned about "relearning," that learning curve would be minimal, but I'd wait on long runs of levelling until after HD since we're so close anyway. No matter whether you are new to the game or older than the elves by LotRO standards, there will be a learning time. You don't need to roll a new character to relearn your old one, but do expect to take some time reading what each of the trait trees do, making a few different trait set ups to try out your options, and doing things you would normally do to get a feel for the changes. You will have the ability to set up multiple trait sets. You can save these and switch between them anywhere, at any time at no cost, as long as you are out of combat. To me, this is the single most helpful thing with this expansion. (which is not to belittle anything else) Yes, your skill bar will look much less full, yes there are skills which are lost and gone forever like your darlin' Clementine, BUT we do get new skills, AND those skills which are locked behind a tree can be accessed relatively easily. You just need to carefully plan and prioritize what is needed in certain situations. At 85, if you have completed all possible class deeds, you will have enough points to completely max out a trees with a few points to spare. Keep in mind the IF. You won't be able to max it out without completing class deeds, as those do give skill points. Whether this will lead to great customization and situational builds, or whether we'll all end up with a couple "must have" builds, I don't know. I hope this leads to significant individuality.
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  12. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by SNy-lotrolinux-EU View Post
    Interesting.
    You base an argument on the usefulness of the polls on useless "math" using the pinnacle of uselessness in ways of feedback (Failbook "Likes").

    Not that I have seen the polls. I have only read the thread. And what I get from it is pretty much an indication of trouble ahead.

    SNy
    Um.........no. I'm not actually saying anything about the usefulness of polls. (That's a whole other topic) The "Useless math of Facebook likes" was to illustrate the inaccuracy of these polls. I do not have an issue with players starting polls. I have an issue with these "polls" being held up as some sort of proof. Or with them being called "Wholly accurate".

    Oh, FWIW everyone in my kin on Riddermark loves most of the changes. (Just to put that sweeping statement into perspective, my kin consists of me and my wife. But saying "My whole kin" sounds way cooler than "The two of us" don't you think???)

  13. #588
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    And I never claimed otherwise, I was just using an example. In practice, the poll threads were started and largely posted in by people who hated the changes -- and it'll be funny if anybody tries to contradict this, because "the poll results were extremely negative" has been stated here many, many times and never disputed by anyone so far --, but anybody who had a simple "yes or no" opinion could have (and presumably did, since most of the official feedback threads were fairly "clean" after the poll threads went up) used them instead of cluttering other threads.


    .
    Your very words show bias. If someone disagreed with your view you say their view is "negative". View points are agree or disagree, not negative or positive. Assuming any one side in a discussion is the righteous one is what causes arguments. You go on to say that the reduction of posts which disagree with your view point "cleaned" up the discussions. So any one who disagrees with a view point is "dirty" The use of biased language in these discussions are what causes the derailment of threads, not which side your are on. I'm sorry to use you as an example, I don't personally have a problem with you. I think all of us need to look at the language we use when discussing the changes in the game. Everyone here is entitled to an opinion, and we all feel strongly about the game we play.
    Robori - Lv86 Guardian on Brandywine. Member of the Runic Knights.

  14. #589
    I had hoped the angry and inflammatory nature of the discussions around this release had toned some, sadly it has not. It is frustrating and sad to see that so many people feel the need to resort to name calling in order to further a cause. I am going to address several things so I apologize for the up coming wall of text.

    1. Turbines unwillingness to consider certain or specific options in implementation of the trees is a very normal business practice. To assume that these decisions were not carefully considered and weighed long before we found out about them seems foolish to me. Business' often decide what they are or are not willing to do to make every customer happy. In some cases this makes them much more successful at delivering their core product or service, and in some cases people are fired or companies close. To argue for or against something that has been clearly and definitively decided by the company leadership is an exercise in futility. I make such decisions every day, set policy every day, and at least once a week I have to inform my customer service team that what the customer is asking for is something we just can not do for them. The decision is always based on what is the best thing for the long term success of the company, be that in regards to manpower, setting bad precedent, logistics, legal, or that it is out side of the scope of service we are willing to provide. The customer can then decide with their wallet how we have performed. If we fail then we take the hit.

    2. Beating up the messenger, is simply unacceptable. The moderators and developers do not make final game direction decisions. They implement towards a direction define by company leadership. I promise you there are times when I have informed an employee of the direction we were going to take and they did not like it but executed it despite personal feelings. The job they do is often thankless. Reading the comments that some people found offensive and dismissive, I interpreted completely differently. If you personally feel that someone has handled a situation inappropriately it is better to contact their supervisor, than to engage that person directly. The more inflamed and combative you, the customer, appear the more understandable the employees response may be considered. But again in the end, don't shoot the messenger. I can say with near certainty that all feedback makes it to the decision maker, the decision maker makes decisions and the responses brought back to us. Getting angry with the delivery method is like getting angry at gmail for an email you didn't like.

    3. Helm's Deep is a beautiful expansion! Story telling and world creating has always been the strength of this game and that continues to be true.

    4. Big Battles are an interesting concept and I believe there is great potential moving forward with them. They need a bit more polish and introduction, as well as work in making the players feel like they have an impact in the battle beyond the battle role. Players want their class to significantly matter, and from my perspective not all feel they do.

    5. On the subject of trait trees, I think I am in the very silent majority. I don't love them, there are things I feel could improve them. I don't hate them. I have greater concerns for some classes than for others (and I have and play all the classes). In general, I feel that they would have been better implemented by layering them on the base skills are earned at level 50 (less legendary skills), more like specializations to a basic class. That being said some classes who had very ineffective trait lines will see that change, if that trait line is something that fits your play style that is a completely different story. At level 85 with 55 trait point hybridization is challenging, but by 95 I was able to build several hybrid builds that I felt very comfortable with, I imagine by 105 it will be easily doable.

    6. Again a subject that I am not passionate about either was it the point cost issue. I understand and can see the perspective from both sides of the discussion. In my opinion it will not ruin any class, it will make hybrid builds more difficult and more costly, which as I understand things is the point of the changes. That is the decision Turbine has made and they are firm on it at this point in time, so I really haven't invested much effort in exploring solutions.

    7. I want to thank those people who invested significant time on a short time line to get the classes overviews completed. I know there was a ton of work compiling and formatting and I appreciate it.

    Finally, this expansion has been the most challenging Beta I have been a part of, maybe I am less tolerant of the vitriol or maybe it was worse than others have been. It seems like it is worse. There have been many testers that argued and supported their points on either side very well, while not resorting to personal attack. I appreciate them all. I appreciate those who have continued to test and try to improve a a direction they clearly did not support. Without the feedback of all these people we would have a much different game than we currently do. I hope we can all continue to try and be passionate without being offensive and decisive.
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  15. #590
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    If someone dislikes something, that's by definition a "negative" view, whether or not I agree with it.

    Personally, I hate Call of Duty games. It would not be in the least inaccurate to say that I have a negative view on Call of Duty games. If someone else walked into a room with me and shouted, "I hate Call of Duty!", I'd still say they have a negative view of Call of Duty. Because that's the factually accurate term to use.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  16. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    Just so you understand your bias, so would posting positive comments about trait points in an Edoras post possibly derail the discussion.
    Completely and absolutely. Plenty of derailment all around in some of the discussions.
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  17. #592
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    Quote Originally Posted by amandakay View Post
    As a beta gal multiple gamer, my recommendation is: If you want to make a new character, getting through the intro will not see too many changes, so even if you are concerned about "relearning," that learning curve would be minimal, but I'd wait on long runs of levelling until after HD since we're so close anyway. No matter whether you are new to the game or older than the elves by LotRO standards, there will be a learning time. You don't need to roll a new character to relearn your old one, but do expect to take some time reading what each of the trait trees do, making a few different trait set ups to try out your options, and doing things you would normally do to get a feel for the changes. You will have the ability to set up multiple trait sets. You can save these and switch between them anywhere, at any time at no cost, as long as you are out of combat. To me, this is the single most helpful thing with this expansion. (which is not to belittle anything else) Yes, your skill bar will look much less full, yes there are skills which are lost and gone forever like your darlin' Clementine, BUT we do get new skills, AND those skills which are locked behind a tree can be accessed relatively easily. You just need to carefully plan and prioritize what is needed in certain situations. At 85, if you have completed all possible class deeds, you will have enough points to completely max out a trees with a few points to spare. Keep in mind the IF. You won't be able to max it out without completing class deeds, as those do give skill points. Whether this will lead to great customization and situational builds, or whether we'll all end up with a couple "must have" builds, I don't know. I hope this leads to significant individuality.
    To me, a part of the reason why I would rather hold of on making any new characters now is because, as I said earlier, I would not want to pick a class and find out the skills I like to use have been changed/removed. Maybe its just me, but I hate to have a class where I feel useless. Better to just wait for the change and start fresh than be disappointed IMO.

    As for individualization, there are only 3 paths each class to choose from, and it looks like hybridization isn't a part of the new changes. At least not without making some major sacrifices to your build. So technically we may be sticking close to the old MMO "trinity" of DPS/Healer/Tank, only under a different dressing.
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  18. #593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kongas View Post
    SOA was years ago. LOTRO has moved onwards and upwards. And newer games have moved on even further. I've no more desire or interest in returning to that gameplay as I have of dusting off my old Pentium computer.
    This makes me wish I could give you +rep.

    While a class revamp was needed, this class revamp seems to be headed in the wrong direction. If we're lucky, we'll get a revamp of the revamp in a couple years after Turbine gets enough emotional distance from things to admit that they've pulled a Radiance, again.
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  19. #594
    Forgive me if I've missed it over the course of the thread. But for someone like me who enjoys PvP and tough group content is there ANY reason to pick up HD?

    I see a lot of talk about trait trees and big skirmishes, but what about actual challenging group content?
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  20. #595
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    The Deeping-Wall Raid is actually quite difficult. But I agree that the expansion looks slim if you dismiss out-of-hand the major selling point.
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  21. #596
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    If someone dislikes something, that's by definition a "negative" view, whether or not I agree with it.

    Personally, I hate Call of Duty games. It would not be in the least inaccurate to say that I have a negative view on Call of Duty games. If someone else walked into a room with me and shouted, "I hate Call of Duty!", I'd still say they have a negative view of Call of Duty. Because that's the factually accurate term to use.
    Again the bias is in the wording. Lets say I state the discussion as "I prefer the skill set up on the live server" and not as "I dislike the new trait trees" . Now your view point is in disagreement, and you are the "negative".
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  22. #597
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamewizard View Post
    Forgive me if I've missed it over the course of the thread. But for someone like me who enjoys PvP and tough group content is there ANY reason to pick up HD?

    I see a lot of talk about trait trees and big skirmishes, but what about actual challenging group content?
    Depends on your point of view. Big Battles (Or Epic Battles I guess now) seems to be something between a skirm and a full raid. Kinda sad there isn't more than 1 12-man, but hopefully they add more later.

    As for PvMP, there are changes to creep corruptions (6 more slots, and set bonuses) and an increase in base creep damage. Also many CDs have been reduced. It'll take a month or so before everything gets ironed out (freeps have to level and figure out their new stuff) but I'm hopeful for a more balanced PvMP experience.

  23. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Epic Battles are actually quite difficult. But I agree that the expansion looks slim if you dismiss out-of-hand the major selling point.

    Difficulty is in the eye of the player. In general, epic battles pale in difficulty to the classic instances (as they've LAUNCHED) we've gotten used to over time.
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  24. #599
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    Why would the poster need to purchase HD to experience the creep changes?
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  25. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheling View Post
    On the second, it is worth keeping in mind that whilst you are guaranteed something at some point, what that is and its utility to you personally is not guaranteed. Perhaps on the first ever one, but not thereafter. It will be a case for many that it will be trading with friends, kinmates and the AH for teales until you get the item you specifically want. But you do get something to at least trade with at some point. If it's bind on equip.
    They are bound, so no trading. But they don't seem to reward doubles, either. At least, not in the testing I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    There are numerous things that can be done prior to launch or in the following months, that can refresh the experience of playing old content....

    Properly scaling Moria and older instances...
    Scaling Rift, DN, watcher....
    Increase the difficulty of all scaled content drastically
    Greatly improve the rewards for tier 3 skraids making them a viable choice for some raiding kins
    Reintroduce daily challenges to all instances
    Better rewards for longer instances
    Dont encourage running an instance 300 times to get a drop
    These are all fabulous suggestions. I hope you post them in the suggestions forum because I'd love to see some of this implemented.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    The more I read about epic battles, the more they sound like large scale versions of the skirmish Siege at Thangulhad, plopping boulders on incoming enemies. Or, the many sessions where you put aside all your skills and have to learn to use new ones if you hope to survive. (Example, the one where you turn into a champ to try to defend against the Balrog.) Sure hope I am wrong on that.
    If you REALLY needed to compare them to anything (which I really wish people didn't. Just see them for yourself, they're not like anything currently in-game), there are some similarities to Thangulhad, but much, much more sophisticated.

    There is nothing even remotely like session play about them. You have all your regular skills, you are YOU in Big Battles. You do get some extra skills depending on your role specialization and level within that specialization, but those are in addition to your regular skills, and appear in a separate skillbar. If you don't yet have a specialization or are low level in that specialization, you are still able to fully play as your character with your skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    Oh and as for these changes that have been made for "no apparent reason", they just are not apparent to us, but they are to the Devs...
    Agreed. This has always bothered me a bit. There's always a reason, and apart from what Sapience said about the feedback of players over the years (which I have also seen), I know Turbine is privy to information we are not, so I trust their judgement on big decisions like this. I know many people do not trust them anymore, and I get that frustration sometimes makes people say things that aren't necessarily fully thought out, but "no reason" isn't really an accurate criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    Or give up, once you realize that it is impossible to fix the toilet with the screwdriver.
    This conversation continues to get more and more bizarre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    I find it rather amusing that "passionate fanbase" is used so frequently as an excuse to be a nozzle.
    Well said. I've been applying that observation to myself over the past couple of days, because I've realized I've been a bit of a nozzle at times too. There is passion and then there is conversational cagefighting. I think many of us have been demonstrating the latter more than the former to varying degrees, whether intentionally or not. I haven't been reporting any posts or planning any grudges, because I feel that this situation has brought out the worst in some really great people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyveil View Post
    This skill bloat in LOTRO is insane. I honestly can't believe how anybody (let alone so many) are defending them. Less skills that are unique and scale based on character building decisions is the way to go. Thankfully Turbine gets it.
    I have to agree with you on that. It's not just about the number of skills (I used every skill on my bar), for me it's more about the feeling that we were at a dead end character-wise. I really want to see my end-game characters become more than what they are. I really, REALLY want to feel the sense of excitement about leveling them that I feel about my alts. These new changes do that for me. I am grateful for them.

    Also, I want to add - I have a LOT of alts. Just look at my sig. But I haven't really fully mastered some of the other classes, because they are so different from my own class. Minstrel especially, which is still really confusing to me at times, even with a level 42 minstrel that I've played a fair bit. As someone who wants to master all these classes, I am really looking forward to a more streamlined flow of advancement, with clearer roles and skills that make more sense. I can only imagine how intimidating someone new to the game might find some of these classes to play.

    No, I am not a casual player, nor am I a 'noob' who wants things dumbed down. I know my main classes inside and out, and I play them well. I just find crossing over to some of the other classes pretty confusing at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firemane0 View Post
    Read the Pm's I was sent (apparently no way to see when you have a message) and I will check out the the forums when I have a chance but my stance remains the same on the anti Turbine crew and on the fact that the resentment towards them and anyone who likes the direction of the game is one of the things that makes this community toxic.
    I've observed this here and in other online forums. Anyone who represents an authority figure or someone sympathetic to an authority figure gets treated/viewed very starkly. I used to manage some pretty large online communities and I know firsthand it's extremely difficult and largely thankless. From that I have learned to try to view people's comments as charitably as possible, rather than reading the worst into what they are saying. I fully acknowledge I am not a master of that yet, but it's always my goal. Because one thing is for sure, if you get it in your mind that someone's motives are wrong, or that they are a bad person, or that they are (insert negative thing here), then everything you read from them will be viewed through that lens.

    Take Sapience's post earlier about travel rations. He made the response, "You do know this has been the case on live for some time now, right?" Some people (myself included) read this charitably, and pictured the tone to be one of friendly jabbing. Others read it uncharitably, and viewed the tone to be snide, demeaning and sarcastic. We may never know what the actual intention was, but what good does it do anyone to view it uncharitably? There is, on the other hand, a lot to be gained on both sides by viewing it charitably, and giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    Also, he may have misspoken and gotten the information wrong, and those who responded also responded according to their 'take' on his being wrong. Some people gave him a friendly jab such as "you need to get into the game more", while others called him out in pretty harsh terms.

    I'm using this as an example, but my overall point is, in my experience it's best to try to view people's comments as charitably as we possibly can, especially those of people we feel we dislike or disagree with. That really is a great way of ensuring we are being good to each other. Giving each other the benefit of the doubt can really help make this community - and the internet in general - a lot less hostile and adversarial.

    This overall discussion has been a huge reminder of that for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yulin-Gladden View Post
    This is an argument that I just can't accept, and have to disagree with. This is their livelihood, their careers that are at stake with each expansion and with player retention. To say they don't care because they're moving the game in a direction that the boards says isn't an indication to me that they don't care, but rather that they've got some other feedback or data that says otherwise. NO business is going to purposefully shoot themselves in the foot and alienate their customers if they're making a profit. If they're not making a profit, they're not going to drag out service a bit longer to get that last dollar, they'll shut the doors quickly and re-allocate those resources.

    As for the minimal effort comment; honestly, this is a bad thing? If they're spending less time on class skills / re balancing again and more time on other things ( pick your favorite feature / bug fix ), that seems like a smart business decision to me.
    Heartily agreed on both counts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Furtim's "B" answer is the most accurate.
    This is as I suspected. The polls did their work, in that sense. They really were a lightning rod for negativity. This is part of why I don't believe anyone can take them as an accurate representation of the broad LotRO player base.

    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    View points are agree or disagree, not negative or positive. Assuming any one side in a discussion is the righteous one is what causes arguments. You go on to say that the reduction of posts which disagree with your view point "cleaned" up the discussions. So any one who disagrees with a view point is "dirty" The use of biased language in these discussions are what causes the derailment of threads, not which side your are on.
    I think you make an extremely valid point here, but at least when I am talking about negativity, I am not talking about disagreement. Many, many constructive, intelligent disagreements were posted in the beta forums, and many of them greatly improved the trait trees and other game features. Some of the most helpful feedback that was implemented into the trees came from people who hated the changes and were extremely critical of absolutely everything about them.

    When I am talking about negativity, I am talking about non-constructive ranting, which did have the effect of distracting and derailing many conversations in beta. No, don't get me wrong, I think people have every right to rant and they deserve a venue for doing just that. Rants have their place as well, and can have an impact. But oftentimes they also had the effect of sparking flame wars, etc. and for those of us who were trying to focus on the task at hand, it was extremely distracting. That distraction works both ways - those of us who were distracted could have just ignored them - but that's where I am coming from when I refer to some things as "negative."

    Having said that, I think it's far more accurate to refer to such comments as "non-constructive" or whatever other deeper issue I had with them, and I'll try to refer to them that way in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    At level 85 with 55 trait point hybridization is challenging, but by 95 I was able to build several hybrid builds that I felt very comfortable with, I imagine by 105 it will be easily doable.
    My thoughts exactly. I know for some people it will be frustrating to not be able to have exactly what they want the minute Helm's Deep is released, but for me that's part of what makes the expansion exciting. I'm not just working toward getting back to level cap, I am working to enhance my character. I can't overstate how important it is to me that the game gives me that type of goal/challenge. That is the primary reason I am so excited about the class changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidus View Post
    Finally, this expansion has been the most challenging Beta I have been a part of, maybe I am less tolerant of the vitriol or maybe it was worse than others have been. It seems like it is worse. There have been many testers that argued and supported their points on either side very well, while not resorting to personal attack. I appreciate them all. I appreciate those who have continued to test and try to improve a a direction they clearly did not support. Without the feedback of all these people we would have a much different game than we currently do. I hope we can all continue to try and be passionate without being offensive and decisive.
    Really great post overall, Aidus. Everything you said there, I echo, but especially this. People - both those who were heated and attacking and those who were not - really worked hard to make this expansion better and their input has been immeasurable. I've seen firsthand the improvements some of these people helped bring to the game, and for that I am grateful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly View Post
    As for individualization, there are only 3 paths each class to choose from, and it looks like hybridization isn't a part of the new changes. At least not without making some major sacrifices to your build. So technically we may be sticking close to the old MMO "trinity" of DPS/Healer/Tank, only under a different dressing.
    This is only the case for a fairly short while. As is mentioned above by Aidus, once you hit 95 you should be in a pretty good position to have some hybridization in place.
    Last edited by frickinmuck; Nov 06 2013 at 03:40 PM.

 

 
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