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  1. #551
    Read the Pm's I was sent (apparently no way to see when you have a message) and I will check out the the forums when I have a chance but my stance remains the same on the anti Turbine crew and on the fact that the resentment towards them and anyone who likes the direction of the game is one of the things that makes this community toxic.

  2. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodarin View Post
    Without a VALID PvP system NO game should ever have to mess with basic skills. In a completely PvE game just put in basic skills and when you increase the level increase the damage they do incrementally. Trying to reinvent the game every time you added a few levels and called it an 'expansion' is what killed it in the first place.

    Now with this game I can understand it a little, there were way too many skills in it. Warden was the only class that had a stream lined skill set, everything else had so many wasted skills it wasnt even funny.
    Thing is - those skills were not wasted. At least not in the hands of skilled players who knew how to get the most from their class. Such players would actually use most of their skills to good effect and thereby succeed in situations that less skilled players would be unable to handle due to knowing when/how to use all their skills.

    And for those who thought some skills were useless, well, they could always just remove those skills from the hotbars and forget about them.

  3. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    Turbine wouldn't even consider opening a player poll on this issue.
    A poll is pointless. The trees are coming! the trees are coming! Every body to get from street! The trees are coming!

    [paraphrased from The Russians are Coming! The Russians are Coming! movie.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rus...ns_Are_Coming]
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  4. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    A poll is pointless. The trees are coming! the trees are coming! Every body to get from street! The trees are coming!

    [paraphrased from The Russians are Coming! The Russians are Coming! movie.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rus...ns_Are_Coming]
    I hope we won't feel like the orcs fleeing from Helm's Deep, heading right into the ent forest (as depicted in the movie), followed by crunchy sounds. :-)

  5. #555
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    From my beta playthroughs, I can say that the classes I played still feel like they do on live. They just have more options to boost individual stats/skills as well as have set bonuses.
    If you "lose" skills, most times it'll just have been moved into a tree or merged with another skill (I know RK's did actually lose some, i'm sorry to hear). But for the majority, those skills are still there.

    However, like others have said, you just have to try them out for yourself, it might be better than how it looks in text

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  6. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    A poll is pointless. The trees are coming! the trees are coming! Every body to get from street! The trees are coming!

    [paraphrased from The Russians are Coming! The Russians are Coming! movie.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rus...ns_Are_Coming]
    The point I was trying to make here is that Turbine doesn't seem to give a whit about what's really MOST important to their customers. Sure, they'll have betas and make some small changes here, some tweaks there. But when it comes to the question of the fundamentals of the character development model, they're looking to put minimal effort in future expansions. That really doesn't say much for their regard for their customers, or their commitment to the game!

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  7. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by TKH View Post
    They have become a capstone in yellow tree, which enable different stat-increasing buff depending on which stance you are in.
    As been stated, a capstone is not a skill.

  8. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    When people say "no one asked for this", they overlook how many times people have made this same type of comment that you're making here. It's something we had seen a lot of in various forms. Everything from there are too many skills, to the skills felt weak, or when we increased the cap there were complaints that there was nothing new just unexciting 'enhanced' skills or that when people took a break they came back to a screen filled with skills they couldn't remember how to use.

    All of that feedback sent a very clear message.
    well i know for hunter you could fix the port issue by making one hunter port and have a drop down menu where u wanna travel to and the 3 tracking skills could be made into one skill regardless what u want track if we are talking about to many skills that is plus the hunter stances could have also been tied to the trees the way it is with champ if you really wanna get rid of to many skills

  9. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    The point I was trying to make here is that Turbine doesn't seem to give a whit about what's really MOST important to their customers. Sure, they'll have betas and make some small changes here, some tweaks there. But when it comes to the question of the fundamentals of the character development model, they're looking to put minimal effort in future expansions. That really doesn't say much for their regard for their customers, or their commitment to the game!
    This is an argument that I just can't accept, and have to disagree with. This is their livelihood, their careers that are at stake with each expansion and with player retention. To say they don't care because they're moving the game in a direction that the boards says isn't an indication to me that they don't care, but rather that they've got some other feedback or data that says otherwise. NO business is going to purposefully shoot themselves in the foot and alienate their customers if they're making a profit. If they're not making a profit, they're not going to drag out service a bit longer to get that last dollar, they'll shut the doors quickly and re-allocate those resources.

    As for the minimal effort comment; honestly, this is a bad thing? If they're spending less time on class skills / re balancing again and more time on other things ( pick your favorite feature / bug fix ), that seems like a smart business decision to me.

  10. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    The point I was trying to make here is that Turbine doesn't seem to give a whit about what's really MOST important to their customers. Sure, they'll have betas and make some small changes here, some tweaks there. But when it comes to the question of the fundamentals of the character development model, they're looking to put minimal effort in future expansions. That really doesn't say much for their regard for their customers, or their commitment to the game!
    Well, a beta is only to test already designed and implemented features, to smooth the edges. Only minor changes can be expected, but nothing changes the general direction.
    For that player feedback would have been needed a year ago or even earlier while stuff still was on the drawing board and ideas on how to cope with skill bloat, raid design difficulties and balancing etc. were discussed. As we have no insight into who actually participated in the current design it is hard to place blame (or responsibility) and which factors actually made the person in charge to go for this model.

  11. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    The point I was trying to make here is that Turbine doesn't seem to give a whit about what's really MOST important to their customers. Sure, they'll have betas and make some small changes here, some tweaks there. But when it comes to the question of the fundamentals of the character development model, they're looking to put minimal effort in future expansions. That really doesn't say much for their regard for their customers, or their commitment to the game!
    Actually, Sab's point about polls is valid. The "polls" that occurred during Beta were put forth as "Wholly accurate" at some 300 opinions. I don't have actual player numbers, but Facebook shows 285,000 "likes". If even half those people play, and half of THEM were in Beta 300 doesn't really count for much. This is why these polls are inaccurate. Heck, if even 10K were in Beta 300 is not so much.

  12. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Actually, Sab's point about polls is valid. The "polls" that occurred during Beta were put forth as "Wholly accurate" at some 300 opinions. I don't have actual player numbers, but Facebook shows 285,000 "likes". If even half those people play, and half of THEM were in Beta 300 doesn't really count for much. This is why these polls are inaccurate. Heck, if even 10K were in Beta 300 is not so much.
    And you don't think Facebook Likes are way off? How many of those Like play the game and how many just Liked when they check it out and how many of those Likes have been there for years but the player no longer plays and has moved on. In Fact, I just went to Facebook and Unliked it, maybe more will now do the same.

  13. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    Thing is - those skills were not wasted. At least not in the hands of skilled players who knew how to get the most from their class. Such players would actually use most of their skills to good effect and thereby succeed in situations that less skilled players would be unable to handle due to knowing when/how to use all their skills.

    And for those who thought some skills were useless, well, they could always just remove those skills from the hotbars and forget about them.
    Theres the rub, you think it takes 'skill' to play this game. It doesnt nor has it for a long long time. When content that takes month to develop is 'beaten' as soon as it becomes available then it doesnt take any skill at all. Beyond finding out whatever trick it takes that people define as skill.

    Not that that should be a knock on this game because no games take skill anymore, if they do people cry and whine that it is too hard, or they go play something that is easier. But dont try and make this game out to be something it isnt. So why should Turbine?

    Have 3 or 4 base skills in trees or whatever they want to call them, have the tree enhance them. If they want to add other skills to the trees that open up after so many points fine. But at this point it shouldnt be anything more than a continuation of the button smashing people already do. Trying to make it less like that isnt fooling anyone and it most assuredly not getting the reception Turbine wanted.

    But once they dumb it down and get people used to it then it can work the next time unless they try yet again to reinvent something in the game.

    When you completely change something every 12 months n a game that is going to kill it. t least for people who have played it before and liked how it was. Sure you might find a few people who have never played this game and dont know any better, but at this point it is safe to assume any current MMO players in the world where it is available have at least tried it. So it is most definitely pushing the existing pool of players away.

    I havent played in BETA so I cant comment directly, but I have played the game since before release, seen many things come and go, and the one constant is Turbine always tries to do something 'groundbreaking' when the fact of the matter is if they just made a good game, which they did originally, and added onto it without changing everything they would be a lot better off. The only thing the original release of this game needed was a better PvP system. Which they did their usual Turbine maneuvers on and it completely killed it. But the Moors is a microcosm of how Turbine has the ability to recreate something that has existed in MMOs forever and completely screw it up by being too cute.

    Its too late at this point, theyre running on fumes and if we get to Mordor it will be a miracle. This is just another game in the rotation now. Expansion or updates you log in to see what has changed, play a little and leave til the next one hits. There is no sense of 'accomplishment' in the game. Hytbold (remembered the name) was the only thing that has seemed like an accomplishment at all, and that was really nothing more than a grindfest of epic proportions, but when it was done it certainly felt good. But it still didnt add a lot to the game. If they expanded upon that, reduced the grind and made the choices you make in the game matter it might spice it up some. But again cant change it now.

    They have done a lot of thing partially correct, they just never go far enough, except seemingly in the things that dont really matter.

  14. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yulin-Gladden View Post
    This is an argument that I just can't accept, and have to disagree with. This is their livelihood, their careers that are at stake with each expansion and with player retention. To say they don't care because they're moving the game in a direction that the boards says isn't an indication to me that they don't care, but rather that they've got some other feedback or data that says otherwise. NO business is going to purposefully shoot themselves in the foot and alienate their customers if they're making a profit. If they're not making a profit, they're not going to drag out service a bit longer to get that last dollar, they'll shut the doors quickly and re-allocate those resources.

    As for the minimal effort comment; honestly, this is a bad thing? If they're spending less time on class skills / re balancing again and more time on other things ( pick your favorite feature / bug fix ), that seems like a smart business decision to me.
    I think Nouri was trying to say that Turbine has other games they are working on, too. So it might be hard to devote more manpower to an older game over something much newer. And that's pretty much how business is; focus on looking ahead, not behind. If one game was to close, they could shift them to a new assignment with little trouble. So their livelihood would not be in jeopardy.

    At least, that's how I interpreted his comment.
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  15. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Actually, Sab's point about polls is valid. The "polls" that occurred during Beta were put forth as "Wholly accurate" at some 300 opinions. I don't have actual player numbers, but Facebook shows 285,000 "likes". If even half those people play, and half of THEM were in Beta 300 doesn't really count for much. This is why these polls are inaccurate. Heck, if even 10K were in Beta 300 is not so much.
    Well, that also counts for the messages and forum posts turbine has received on that things aren't good concerning the skill system.
    Probably most people are happy with things as they are (or indifferent), so by same reasoning there wouldn't have been a reason to change the system based on player feedback alone!
    So (speculation mode on: the main reason simply is that this redoing of skills is rather turbine driven, that is, the needs of the content design teams because the variations in group setup makes it near impossible to balance content for everyone experience the game at a similar difficulty).

  16. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    And you don't think Facebook Likes are way off? How many of those Like play the game and how many just Liked when they check it out and how many of those Likes have been there for years but the player no longer plays and has moved on. In Fact, I just went to Facebook and Unliked it, maybe more will now do the same.
    Oh, I have no idea about the accuracy of them. That's why I started with "If even half of them actually play". While I don't have actual numbers any more than anyone else, I think it can at least be used as a better figure than "300 is most of the players". Lets face it, if that were true, this game really IS in trouble. I don't think Turbine could make ANY money from a game that had less than 1000 players. And if they put less than 1000 in Beta, then I don't think they were really stressing the server.

  17. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapunzel666 View Post
    Well, that also counts for the messages and forum posts turbine has received on that things aren't good concerning the skill system.
    Probably most people are happy with things as they are (or indifferent), so by same reasoning there wouldn't have been a reason to change the system based on player feedback alone!
    So (speculation mode on: the main reason simply is that this redoing of skills is rather turbine driven, that is, the needs of the content design teams because the variations in group setup makes it near impossible to balance content for everyone experience the game at a similar difficulty).
    Player feedback, despite what they say, isn't what drove this change. The old system would never have worked with Big Battles upscaling characters from level 10- players wouldn't have the skills they'd need to be able to use as a scaled 95 in order to perform their class roles. This change was done so they could make upscaling in Big Battles work, and with upscaling hopefully sell more copies of the expansion to new players who wouldn't have bought it if Big Battles were for 95 only.

    Additionally, I believe this was done to make the Devs life easier when designing content- nerf the classes so they don't have to work as hard to make instances and raids. Now they don't have to work to make content challenging, they took away 2/3 of your skills and made it impossible to do anything but 1 role at a time.

    They pay lip service to "listening to the playbase" by referencing a comparatively tiny number of complaints about "too many skills" and not factoring in most people actually playing the game never had much trouble with the old system.

  18. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    When people say "no one asked for this", they overlook how many times people have made this same type of comment that you're making here. It's something we had seen a lot of in various forms. Everything from there are too many skills, to the skills felt weak, or when we increased the cap there were complaints that there was nothing new just unexciting 'enhanced' skills or that when people took a break they came back to a screen filled with skills they couldn't remember how to use.

    All of that feedback sent a very clear message.
    I believe, however, that the disconnect here is folks who seem to be seeing the forthcoming results are struggling to see how that is connected to any of such (and grant that information you all (Turbine) may have is still news to players) requests or to even granting that premise the communicated intent and aim of these changes. When both of those seem pretty surprising to folks, frustrating, and falling short - it doesn't surprise me people post things like that player did or as others have mentioned. Something either was lost in translation or the result didn't really secure the intended outcome or players still feel very disconnected from something that they do (right or wrong) feel very connected to/strong feeling about after 6 years of potential investment.
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  19. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Actually, Sab's point about polls is valid. The "polls" that occurred during Beta were put forth as "Wholly accurate" at some 300 opinions. I don't have actual player numbers, but Facebook shows 285,000 "likes". If even half those people play, and half of THEM were in Beta 300 doesn't really count for much. This is why these polls are inaccurate. Heck, if even 10K were in Beta 300 is not so much.
    Actually, 300 is a perfectly good sample size. There are two problems with polls like the one conducted in the beta forum:

    • The composition of the sample group is not well-known. There's no way to tell how closely the sample group's demographics match the overall population's, which means you can't extrapolate the poll results to learn anything about the overall population.
    • Rigorous question wording is very, very, very difficult. It's easy to unintentionally "guide" the respondents to preferring one option over the others. Professional polls usually ask the same question in multiple different ways, with the intent that the biases will even out. This is where the small sample size actually does cause problems, because if you broke the 300 people down into subgroups, the resulting subgroups probably would not have enough samples for statistical significance.


    I poked around for a more formal discussion of online polling and came across this Pew FAQ that might be interesting for folks who'd like to know more. (It includes a link to an even more thorough article, though it's unfortunately paywalled.) Oh, and here's another post about online polls from Nate Silver; he's actually optimistic about the idea in general, but he accurately describes the problems that online polls need to overcome to be useful.
    Last edited by furtim; Nov 06 2013 at 12:41 PM.
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  20. #570
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    I'll say this. In general, polls are against the community guidelines. However, these player run polls were allowed to operate and run their course repeatedly over the multi-month beta process. Certainly someone felt they were generating some kind of useful feedback or they would not have been allowed to continue.

    I recall someone saying that the reason polls are not allowed is because there's generally no way to make them quantifiable or useful. In this case, respondants stuck strictly to one post per, with their reply, making it very very easy to get quantifiable feedback.
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  21. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Actually, Sab's point about polls is valid. The "polls" that occurred during Beta were put forth as "Wholly accurate" at some 300 opinions. I don't have actual player numbers, but Facebook shows 285,000 "likes". If even half those people play, and half of THEM were in Beta 300 doesn't really count for much. This is why these polls are inaccurate. Heck, if even 10K were in Beta 300 is not so much.
    You make the mistake of believing that everyone who "liked" Lotro (I did a number of years ago, so cant re"like") got into the Beta process. (Near as I could tell, never was invited.)

    Also, to reinforce your point.. from what I have read so far, a number of those who were invited to Beta burned out in rounds 1 and 2 and decided to leave the game, or at least Beta. Then there are those who stopped posting and reading the forums after personal attacks, like sadly have appeared in this thread. Then factor in,, I think I read somewhere that only 5% of the player base in any game even READS the forums, much less comments. (like 10% of those.) So any poll in the forums is indeed pretty useless. The only exceptions are for kin-sites, where you ask from a known number of people and then have to harrass them into replying.

    Like many others, I am obviously having a hard time with the concept that, come November 18th, when I log in, my warden and LM, who I have spent years grooming and tailoring, will be gone. They will have the same names I picked out four plus years ago, still be wearing the same clothes as they do today, but.. they will be dead and replaced with a zombie shell of who they were. I am probably foolish enough to see how far they can go. I will still want to see the sights.

    Heck.. I did that during the warden mess from ROI, until I burned out and start looking at fresher pastures. I will hear promises that I heard then, "Things will get better." "You will get used to the changes." "Just wait until the next pass of class balancing." KNOW WHAT? It took 18 fraking MONTHS AND TWO DEVS to get wardens fixed.

    I have been through some bad times with this game, and keep coming back, so I guess I am the definition of a player addicted to LOTRO. Part of that is that some friends from EQ1 came here and we still play together after almost 10 years. I have to add, I have not checked with them to see what they think of the changes. We were already talking about leaving for another game next year, have left and tried a few other MMOs, but kept coming back here because some of them are lifetime subs. I get the feeling they will be as dismayed as I am at what this game has become. We were proud raiders back then. Now, skirms are about all any of us feel like doing, when we get enough people motivated to be online to field 12. ALL of us are Tolkien fans, so that draw may be the games saving grace, for a while.

    Sigh.. I ramble.

    On a side note: (Sorry Fred, I warned one person in a PM about his message, but did not yours. Guess I should have. Attacking the CS Manager in HIS FORUMS, is just foolish and is indeed bannable. Frankly, so is talking about it, so here is hoping I (and the other posters above) don't end up banned too.) For a refresher:

    Quote Originally Posted by Guidelines View Post
    Violations of the community guidelines can lead to disciplinary action against your forum account, including but not limited to the permanent removal of your forum privileges and/or game account (Banning). Because every situation is different, all enforcement and application of the community guidelines are at the discretion of the Turbine Community Team. These rules are subject to change without notice; please review them regularly.


    2. Harassing, Insulting and Abusive posts.
    We do not tolerate any comments that are abusive or insulting, involve name calling, or attempt to disparage, harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players, Kinships, Fansites, groups, the developers, community team, Turbine/WB employees, or other companies. Doing so is considered a serious offense and will not be tolerated.


    6. Derailing/disruption of official discussion threads.
    Official threads are created by the Community, Development, and other teams to gather feedback and create a focused discussion around a given topic. Attempting to derail these threads by posting unrelated comments or bringing other issues into the discussion is not permitted.

    11. Polls and Petitions.
    While we consider this spam, we felt we should explain why. First, several pages of /signed and /unsigned doesn’t really offer us much in the way of actionable feedback. Second, they usually turn into something unpleasant. Instead we recommend a well-considered suggestion posted in the appropriate area that would allow for meaningful contributions and opinions to be shared by all members of the community.


    13. Discussion of Disciplinary or Moderations Actions.
    We do not publicly discuss moderation decisions, or disciplinary actions taken against members, on the Community Sites and we ask that you do not either. Any threads or posts that mention infractions, bans, or thread/post deletions or modifications, etc. are subject to removal and may result in further disciplinary action. If you have a question about an infraction or warning, you should contact a member of the community team through private message (PM). Ban appeals should be addressed as described below.


    The Community Team reserves the right to assign temporary and permanent bans at will based upon the severity of an infraction.
    Sadly, as a community, we have gone pretty far beyond those in this thread.

  22. #572
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRonnie View Post
    Well Fred's been perma ban hammered, so you don't need to worry about him anymore. Given what he's given to this community with the Hytbold guide, which has likely helped thousands of players, this is a real shame and a massive loss to the community.
    Seconded. I see little justice in the ban that was handed out.
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  23. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    I'll say this. In general, polls are against the community guidelines. However, these player run polls were allowed to operate and run their course repeatedly over the multi-month beta process. Certainly someone felt they were generating some kind of useful feedback or they would not have been allowed to continue.
    I think it had more to do with the feared backlash at closing the poll threads that were clearly critical of the new class system rather than them getting useful feedback. After all, they told us the system was here to stay. Period. And the off-spec penalty was here to stay. Period. Not much wiggle room for feedback that by and large said either start over or it needs a massive overhaul.
    Last edited by Sthrax; Nov 06 2013 at 12:47 PM.

  24. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    I'll say this. In general, polls are against the community guidelines. However, these player run polls were allowed to operate and run their course repeatedly over the multi-month beta process. Certainly someone felt they were generating some kind of useful feedback or they would not have been allowed to continue.
    I can only speculate on the reasons, because I can't read Sapience's mind, but I always assumed that the beta polls were only allowed to a) avoid the appearance of "squelching" negative opinions and b) as a "lightning rod" for the same, to give those who disliked the changes a place to express themselves without derailing other discussions.
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  25. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    I can only speculate on the reasons, because I can't read Sapience's mind, but I always assumed that the beta polls were only allowed to a) avoid the appearance of "squelching" negative opinions and b) as a "lightning rod" for the same, to give those who disliked the changes a place to express themselves without derailing other discussions.
    Just because a person disagrees with a subject doesn't mean that they automatically "derail" the topic being discussed. If a good discussion only has one view point, you are not really having a discussion, your listening to a speech.
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