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  1. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    I hope you feel proud now that you pointed out something 10 people already said...
    Does it really mean so much to you people? Getting one over Sapience?... Kinda sad...
    The community manager doesnt know every little detail in-game... Sound the alarms!!
    You guys are just becoming annoying....
    A. Not trying to get on over on anyone, just pointing out a mistake (a big mistake).
    B. Hadn't read the whole thread before replying, didn't realize a lot of people had pointed it out until afterwards, and don't really care whether they did or not either way.
    C. The community manager doesn't need to know everything that is true, but a good community manager would research before making sweeping statements about something as a "come back" to a complaint in an official topic of discussion, not doing so shows a lack of professionalism.

  2. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderv View Post
    I always wonder how people continue to say this nonsense. Last time i entered the game i saw nearly half a hundred instances with valuable loot. Most games can just dream about such abundance. Talking about no endgame is just ridiculous and devalues to zero anything you are trying to say.
    There is precisely 1 instance that has something in it for my character. And no one runs that Raid any more because it is bugged.

  3. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Herwegur View Post
    Please clarify how the LM "did not lose the functionality" of AOE wound/poison removal, when we are no longer able to do this in HD? The ability to trait for it is gone, now it's single target only.
    Please clarify how the LM "did not lose the functionality" of +15% melee damage via "Sword and Staff" legendary, when we no longer have this trait or this stat?
    Please clarify how the LM "did not lose the functionality" of Improved Staff Strike, which we lost? (+5% maximum morale, +25% damage, +25% crit chance, +50 crit damage, +50% devastate damage, 5s stun on crit)? These stats are gone with that skill, and I'd very much like to hear how their functionality was not lost. Maybe you know something that I'm simply missing? But then again, my LM is merely my main, surely if it had been my occasional alt instead, I would have been much wiser about this functionality business and rushed to embrace all the changes and nerfs.
    First, let us look at what I said:

    "...arguably we did not lose the functionality of any skills we lost."

    I have bolded the two key words. The first demonstrates that I am positing an argument, and since I don't know the intricacies of every single class, there could be flaws in that argument. From what I have seen and played, however, most of the functionality of skills that were removed still exists, but in a different form. I gave several examples from Captain to illustrate this. There are other examples, however, where this is not entirely the case, and I think Agile Rejoinder for Hunter is perhaps one of those (I haven't checked recently to see if a suitable heal has been added elsewhere as a replacement).

    The second word is very important, as I and others are discussing removed skills, not traits.

    1. The skill Knowledge of Cures has not been removed. Sure, its AOE functionality has been taken away, but in its place Lore-masters can remove 3 Fears, Wounds, Diseases and Poisons, not just Wounds and Poisons. So, in one sense it is a nerf, but in another it is a buff. A tier six bonus for the Ancient Master makes it instant-cast, which should help with applying it to people. Most, if not all, classes have also had their effect removal skills buffed to apply to all types of effects, so the need for the Lore-master alone to remove them is less vital than on live.

    2. Sword and Staff is not a skill, but a trait. Some of those bonuses are distributed around the trees, however. For example, the parry boost can be found in the Fend Them Off trait, along with additional buffs to avoidances and fire damage. From what I can see, I don't believe there is an equivalent to a melee damage buff, but then I'd argue that a Lore-master doesn't really need it, especially given the slew of new elemental damage skills, procs, etc. I highly doubt Lore-master DPS is going to suffer because of slightly less melee damage.

    3. Master of the Staff (which turns Staff Strike into Improved Staff Strike) is not a skill, but a trait. Improved Staff Strike, the skill, does not give all those bonuses you listed. That said, several of the bonuses you list are made up for in one way or another with traits on the trees, including a morale one (which provides a boost to morale for you and your pet), lots of damage increasing traits (check the red line), and the Sword and Storm trait in Master of Nature's Fury, which lets Staff Strike call down lightning, dealing extra damage and stunning the target. From what I can see, much of the functionality of the trait you listed still exists.

    You label the above two as "skills" when they are in fact traits, and no one is arguing about that at all. There is no doubt that the traits have changed considerably, with losses and gains, just as they have done in every expansion pack to date. I doubt that bothers people as much as the thought that a skill has been axed completely, with no functional alternative. That is the concern I was addressing, and I think in the majority of cases players will find the functionality of removed skills still exist in one form or another.

    -Bel
    Thank you for proving people who have no idea how to play a LM, should not be commenting on them, much less determining what skills they use. For reference:

    1. "Proof Against All Ills" is a trait to change what was for a long time always a single target skill "Knowledge of Cures" into an AOE cure of Wounds and Disease. It USED TO BE INSTACAST, but Turbine decided people were spamming it too much and put a cool-down on it. The poster you quoted did not say which skill, but we called the skill PAAI, because it is an enhanced skill granted by a trait. What would have been wrong with making taking it back to that, then making it affect Fears and Poisons? (You know, like they did with RKs and Minis with the last xpac.) And.. does anything in ANY of the instances actually CAST THREE DEEP of ANY one, much less three of those on a single target at one time?

    2. His complaint was that we lost the ability to use the trait Sword and Staff. If you had that legendary traited, you could do 15% more damage with your staff and sword. With that trait equipped, LMs hit harder on ALL MELEE SKILLS. On the current build, we can do as much as 1/3 our DPS with hitting things with our sword and staff in melee. It affected ALL our SKILLS. Your answer, we should stand back and pew-pew with the hunters is. .. horrid.

    3. SIGH.. here.. read the wiki:

    http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Improved_Staff-strike

    Quote Originally Posted by lotro-wiki View Post
    Improved Staff-strike is an even more powerful DPS skill than Staff-strike, dealing 25% more damage, having a 20% higher chance to hit critically, and hitting 50% harder on both critical and devastating hits. It deals even more damage when used in response to a flank event. On top of that, it causes a relatively long stun of five seconds if it hits critically or devastates (and the chance of that to occur is higher than that of other skills).
    Improved Staff-strike always deals Light damage, regardless of the damage type of your staff. The trait required for the skill in addition increases your morale by 5% of your maximum morale, making somewhat up for having to go in melee range in order to use the skill.
    Once again.. it was a trait that increase the power of a skill, making a new skill, so YES, it is a SKILL.

    And saying that, well.. "its now distributed among other trees" is just silly. In no way can you say that the "functionality" was not lost. You cannot get all three if its in all three trees. Its like saying "Oh, you want an Egg McMuffin? Well, you now have to choose if you want the Egg, the Canadian Bacon or the Muffin, as we no longer offer our signature sandwich. But we will put ketchup on whichever you choose." That is no longer an Egg McMuffin. To say that any of them still exists is an insult to the LM community.

    Oh, and, one other thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    There isn't really anything similar to session play in Epic Battles. You play your own character. The drops, while semi-random, are far from useless. Not only do they have great stats, which far surpass what we have on our level 85 characters -- there are also ones that give class set bonuses.

    -Bel
    The more I read about epic battles, the more they sound like large scale versions of the skirmish Siege at Thangulhad, plopping boulders on incoming enemies. Or, the many sessions where you put aside all your skills and have to learn to use new ones if you hope to survive. (Example, the one where you turn into a champ to try to defend against the Balrog.) Sure hope I am wrong on that.

    I am curious tho.. Class set bonuses? I thought all that was dropping was jewelry. Do THOSE have class set bonuses?

  4. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    Rather than calling the player's competence into question with this particular phrasing, you could simply have stated "This has been the case on live for some time now."

    However, that still wouldn't have made your statement any more correct.

    Beta testers also had to deal with this sort of sarcastic, paternalistic communication from the community team throughout beta. In my opinion, it contributed greatly to the adversarial atmosphere, and served to provoke and inflame otherwise civil conversations.

    Edit: I'm going to leave that all there in case someone wants to call me on it, which is totally fair. What I really wanted to convey is that some communications from the community team during beta seemed intentionally provocative. It's not my intention to call out anyone in particular. It's just the general impression I got during testing, and this reminded me of it.
    This.

    Certain events were a masterclass in how not to deal with CUSTOMERS who were unhappy. It hardened attitudes and widened divisions. I also know 4 players personally who like myself were unhappy with the changes and this was a factor in the decisions being made whether they would stay or go.

    I personally was aghast at one of the posts I read from a member of Turbine's staff
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2921e00000000215c/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  5. #480
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    On a side note, this video now needs to go:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JztbiHaaMUY

    Because everyone will have to pay to play HD.

  6. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    On a side note, this video now needs to go:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JztbiHaaMUY

    Because everyone will have to pay to play HD.
    Isn't that true of any previous expansion?
    Council Of The West On Evernight

    Runesi

  7. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runesi_EU View Post
    Isn't that true of any previous expansion?
    No, because you could still play the epic line as F2P, just no landscape quests. Now, to do that quest line, you have to buy the expansion once you get to HD. (At least, that is what I keep reading.)

  8. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    No, because you could still play the epic line as F2P, just no landscape quests. Now, to do that quest line, you have to buy the expansion once you get to HD. (At least, that is what I keep reading.)
    I suppose then it is true if you are only interested in the epic quests.
    Council Of The West On Evernight

    Runesi

  9. #484
    A slightly skewed view...

    If any of you were around in the Golden Age of SoA, you might remember when the tank died, so did the fellowship and you better have a mini on their healing toes to keep the group up. In the Golden Age of SoA (pre WB), classes did pretty much 1 or 2 tasks; 1 well and 1 not so good.

    The new trait trees are a way to get to see this Golden Age again.

    The skills that are buried are available IF you CHOOSE them to start with. No you cannot them all like we have now with our smorgasbord selection. But they are there. Some have been consolidated and a few removed or made passives. If you CHOOSE to not select them because you prefer a different sort of play, you are able to do that too.

    Your toons are not "dumbed down", you will actually have to be "smarter than ever" to select the set that best suits your style and also the best the suits grouping (if you group).

    It's really The Golden Age of SoA - revisited.

    Oh and as for these changes that have been made for "no apparent reason", they just are not apparent to us, but they are to the Devs...

    If you miss out on Meduseld, the Golden Hall of the King of Rohan in Edoras, you will surely have missed something rather special, and it's all there for a reason too but maybe one we haven't learned about yet (unless we read the books or saw the movie). If you do get there, spend some time exploring the hall - the landscape/building designers hit a home run once again.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  10. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    The skills that are buried are available IF you CHOOSE them to start with. No you cannot them all like we have now with our smorgasbord selection. But they are there. Some have been consolidated and a few removed or made passives. If you CHOOSE to not select them because you prefer a different sort of play, you are able to do that too.

    Your toons are not "dumbed down", you will actually have to be "smarter than ever" to select the set that best suits your style and also the best the suits grouping (if you group).
    How can you say in one sentence we currently have a "smorgasbord" of skills available on live then say by lessening these we will need to be "smarter than ever" to be able to play?

    In my opinion being able to mentally track 30 available skills as opposed to 15 given any situation doesn't require you to be smarter. In fact I would posit it requires you to be the exact polar opposite of smarter. (the number of skills I picked was arbitrary to illustrate a point)
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2921e00000000215c/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  11. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    No, because you could still play the epic line as F2P, just no landscape quests. Now, to do that quest line, you have to buy the expansion once you get to HD. (At least, that is what I keep reading.)
    You do have to buy the expansion for the epic quests in HD.

    iirc The epic quest line is tied in with the big battles in a way that they cannot be separated. This is because the way the story (Tolkien) goes and the path of the broken fellowship. I did not play the epic quest in beta, but I recall this as one of the reasons behind the change.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  12. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurinor_EU View Post
    How can you say in one sentence we currently have a "smorgasbord" of skills available on live then say by lessening these we will need to be "smarter than ever" to be able to play?

    In my opinion being able to mentally track 30 available skills as opposed to 15 given any situation doesn't require you to be smarter. In fact I would posit it requires you to be the exact polar opposite of smarter. (the number of skills I picked was arbitrary to illustrate a point)
    Because my point was that in the Golden Age of SoA we didn't have all these skills, we had a lot less and we did quite a lot with the ones we had. If you re-skew the thinking to back-in-the-day and apply it to HD, you can see that the fewer skills you have the better you are going to have to be at using them. Your selection of skills from the trees will determine exactly how clever you are for a situation.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  13. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurinor_EU View Post
    How can you say in one sentence we currently have a "smorgasbord" of skills available on live then say by lessening these we will need to be "smarter than ever" to be able to play?

    In my opinion being able to mentally track 30 available skills as opposed to 15 given any situation doesn't require you to be smarter. In fact I would posit it requires you to be the exact polar opposite of smarter. (the number of skills I picked was arbitrary to illustrate a point)
    I think I can be more reckless now on live, if I'm main healing as a minstrel on live now I still have an RK or captain who can pick up the slack for me if I make mistakes. In HD assuming the RK traits for dps and the captain isn't traited for heals I have to rely on myself more.
    Council Of The West On Evernight

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  14. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    Because my point was that in the Golden Age of SoA we didn't have all these skills, we had a lot less and we did quite a lot with the ones we had. If you re-skew the thinking to back-in-the-day and apply it to HD, you can see that the fewer skills you have the better you are going to have to be at using them. Your selection of skills from the trees will determine exactly how clever you are for a situation.
    I can see there is some logic to that however I would say that narrowing your skills has the effect of narrowing the responsibilities you have in a group purely because you simply don't have the tools for anything other than what you traited for. Creating a sort of role tunnel vision. That is not a good thing.

    It is like saying to a mechanic :

    "We are going to make you have to think more whilst you are doing your job. You will have to work harder, but you will be challenged more."

    "OK, how are you going to do that?"

    "Give us your toolbox so I can take half your tools away"
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2921e00000000215c/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  15. #490
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    I have to LOL at the "we're getting back the golden SoA age". Skill selection is just one of many aspects when it comes to balancing, and all the claims about the new class system enforcing "specialisation", "tough choices" and the like are rendered null and void by the new itemization scheme turning everyone into a semi-tank, threat-through-dps, EBs requiring EB-roles over class and other changes. Not to mention that we still have the RNG overlord when it comes to reward distribution, so we'll still see Spambrog and BfE farming.
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
    Playing now: Hellcat / King Tiger / GW Panther / IS / KV-5 / M4 Sherman and more

  16. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurinor_EU View Post
    I can see there is some logic to that however I would say that narrowing your skills has the effect of narrowing the responsibilities you have in a group purely because you simply don't have the tools for anything other than what you traited for. Creating a sort of role tunnel vision. That is not a good thing.

    It is like saying to a mechanic :

    "We are going to make you have to think more whilst you are doing your job. You will have to work harder, but you will be challenged more."

    "OK, how are you going to do that?"

    "Give us your toolbox so I can take half your tools away"
    I think you got it!

    Try fixing the toilet with a screwdriver... you will get VERY CREATIVE quickly. Is it easier to do with a full box of tools for every nut, bolt, widget and do-dad? Of course - lots of choices but when your choice is restricted you're going to have to work harder, longer and figure out new ways to make that screwdriver work.

    Of course, you can always go down to the hardware store and buy a wrench, just get out of combat and change your trait tree.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  17. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    I think you got it!

    Try fixing the toilet with a screwdriver... you will get VERY CREATIVE quickly. Is it easier to do with a full box of tools for every nut, bolt, widget and do-dad? Of course - lots of choices but when your choice is restricted you're going to have to work harder, longer and figure out new ways to make that screwdriver work.

    Of course, you can always go down to the hardware store and buy a wrench, just get out of combat and change your trait tree.
    This is a truthful question to you Sabriel, was your post serious? It read as such
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  18. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    I think you got it!

    Try fixing the toilet with a screwdriver... you will get VERY CREATIVE quickly. Is it easier to do with a full box of tools for every nut, bolt, widget and do-dad? Of course - lots of choices but when your choice is restricted you're going to have to work harder, longer and figure out new ways to make that screwdriver work.

    Of course, you can always go down to the hardware store and buy a wrench, just get out of combat and change your trait tree.
    The question I have is why WE the players have to figure out how to even fix fix the toilet (game) to begin with.
    The toilet (game) is turbines property, why am I forced to change how I play to accommodate a game who's mechanics should change?
    Founding Member of the Vocal Minority....

    "Well my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."
    Captain Malcolm Reynolds

  19. #494
    SOA was years ago. LOTRO has moved onwards and upwards. And newer games have moved on even further. I've no more desire or interest in returning to that gameplay as I have of dusting off my old Pentium computer.

  20. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    You do have to buy the expansion for the epic quests in HD.

    iirc The epic quest line is tied in with the big battles in a way that they cannot be separated. This is because the way the story (Tolkien) goes and the path of the broken fellowship. I did not play the epic quest in beta, but I recall this as one of the reasons behind the change.
    Big battles may be in the epic quest line, but you dont need to be anywhere near ready for the quest line to do them since they are available from level 10. Why not allow people to do them once in the epic quest line and keep the quest line free. If they are as good as Turbine hope (say) they are then this would surely encourage people to buy the expansion to keep playing them.

  21. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    I think you got it!

    Try fixing the toilet with a screwdriver... you will get VERY CREATIVE quickly. Is it easier to do with a full box of tools for every nut, bolt, widget and do-dad? Of course - lots of choices but when your choice is restricted you're going to have to work harder, longer and figure out new ways to make that screwdriver work.

    Of course, you can always go down to the hardware store and buy a wrench, just get out of combat and change your trait tree.
    Unless you have a sonic screwdriver you wont be able to do very much. No matter how creative you get you can only do a small number of different things with a screwdriver.

    As for changing while out of combat, that means you have to know what you need before you actually need it, which is not possible. Say you are playing a champion and you are in an old scaled 6 man instance and the tank gets disconnected, just now you switch to glory and try to keep the fight going till the tank gets back on line. Without the correct traits for tanking you will not be as effective as you could be but you might just save a wipe. With these changes there is nothing you can do.

  22. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    Because my point was that in the Golden Age of SoA we didn't have all these skills, we had a lot less and we did quite a lot with the ones we had. If you re-skew the thinking to back-in-the-day and apply it to HD, you can see that the fewer skills you have the better you are going to have to be at using them. Your selection of skills from the trees will determine exactly how clever you are for a situation.
    That is true in SOA as a LM my fire lore and wind lore were always aoe debuffs. In SOA I could keep stun immunity on several players. Now I cant do that.

    In SOA there were raids with dungeon crawls that required CC and debuffs just to get to the boss. There were even 24 man raids.

    Unless they start making content like SOA then there is no reason to think that the skill changes have anything to do with the glory days of SOA

  23. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by cossieuk View Post
    Unless you have a sonic screwdriver you wont be able to do very much. No matter how creative you get you can only do a small number of different things with a screwdriver.

    As for changing while out of combat, that means you have to know what you need before you actually need it, which is not possible. Say you are playing a champion and you are in an old scaled 6 man instance and the tank gets disconnected, just now you switch to glory and try to keep the fight going till the tank gets back on line. Without the correct traits for tanking you will not be as effective as you could be but you might just save a wipe. With these changes there is nothing you can do.
    Exactly.

    The solution to creating challenging content seems to be thus in Turbine's mind :

    "We have a race to win against those tricksy players and their wily ways. How do we do it?"
    "We could train really hard and outsmart them?"
    "Or......we could break their legs"
    "BREAK THEIR LEGS!"
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/2921e00000000215c/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  24. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by cossieuk View Post
    Unless you have a sonic screwdriver you wont be able to do very much. No matter how creative you get you can only do a small number of different things with a screwdriver.

    As for changing while out of combat, that means you have to know what you need before you actually need it, which is not possible. Say you are playing a champion and you are in an old scaled 6 man instance and the tank gets disconnected, just now you switch to glory and try to keep the fight going till the tank gets back on line. Without the correct traits for tanking you will not be as effective as you could be but you might just save a wipe. With these changes there is nothing you can do.
    Wipe and come back. That's how it was done in the Golden Age of SoA.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  25. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Wondering if I have all the stuff done I need to have max points.
    I believe that if you are L85, and have completed your class quests along with all of your class & legendary traits, you should cross into the new era with 55 trait points (ref: bohbashum's write-up on trait points, which was previously linked).

    edit:

    Easy button example: having played my burglar as a mischief maker from L20 to L85, there are a handful... well, a few... would you believe...? 3 traits that are related to a burg's crit. chain in relation to dps rotation, position, and stealth that I have never bothered with. So, L85 with 3 class trait deeds incomplete... 52 trait points.
    Last edited by rctman; Nov 06 2013 at 03:42 PM.
    Character Name Goes Here!

 

 
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