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  1. #926
    Quote Originally Posted by Skippa View Post
    I seem to recall similar philosophies expounded when NGE dropped. SOE STILL gets bad press all these years later.
    Toss all classes in LOTRO into 1 class and you got their NGE.
    Mixing up skills and builds is a huge difference to changing 35 professions into 9.
    Changes are part of MMOs, these are bigger than normal but not really end of the pixel world as we know it.

  2. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by Cartman76 View Post
    Toss all classes in LOTRO into 1 class and you got their NGE.
    Mixing up skills and builds is a huge difference to changing 35 professions into 9.
    Changes are part of MMOs, these are bigger than normal but not really end of the pixel world as we know it.
    /shrugs, guess we'll see in a couple of weeks whether it's a valid comparison or not.

  3. #928
    Quote Originally Posted by Skippa View Post
    /shrugs, guess we'll see in a couple of weeks whether it's a valid comparison or not.
    I was in on the NGE when it went live... Nothing can be that bad, hehe.
    I still have the sshots of blue dancing jedis in the cantina, as that was pretty much all we could think of doing.
    Took them years to get back on track. And to be fair it was still a great game when they had fixed the mess they made.
    Even if that mess never should have happened

    Nobody likes loosing skills or specs, but at least we won't be dancing in the pony because there is nothing else to do

  4. #929
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    Quote Originally Posted by ertr View Post
    We can cope, we just don't like being forced to do it. Also, if people perceive the changes to be a step backwards rather than an improvement, they are not going to be happy about it regardless of how well they can cope with the changes or not.

    Also, claiming or implying that the people who dislike the changes do so just because they can't cope with change, or are afraid of change, or similar sentiments, is frankly a bit rude and more than a little insulting.
    Its not rude when it seems to be the case, since it seems that most of players who hate the changes came into the beta hating changes they never played, and continued to hate the changes after they played it, like they knew they would, and were incapable of giving and feedback that was remotely relevant. Stuck on stubborn is pretty much a base refusal to even try and deal with any change. When you decide you hate something you never gave a chance, you perceptions become tainted, and its self fulfilling prophecy.

  5. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skippa View Post
    I seem to recall similar philosophies expounded when NGE dropped. SOE STILL gets bad press all these years later.
    NGE comparisons are the MMO equivalent of comparing things to Nazi's, and has become as tired and overused.

  6. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by Reximus View Post
    NGE comparisons are the MMO equivalent of comparing things to Nazi's, and has become as tired and overused.
    lol whatever you say chief

  7. #932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reximus View Post
    NGE comparisons are the MMO equivalent of comparing things to Nazi's, and has become as tired and overused.
    Is there a law like godwins for that too ?
    Nothing here matters.

  8. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by Reximus View Post
    Its not rude when it seems to be the case, since it seems that most of players who hate the changes came into the beta hating changes they never played, and continued to hate the changes after they played it, like they knew they would, and were incapable of giving and feedback that was remotely relevant. Stuck on stubborn is pretty much a base refusal to even try and deal with any change. When you decide you hate something you never gave a chance, you perceptions become tainted, and its self fulfilling prophecy.
    Actually, yes it is rude and insulting. Just because folks don't want to deal with the changes does not mean they are incapable of doing so. *Can't cope* implies a reduced capacity, which is rude and insulting.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  9. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reximus View Post
    Its not rude when it seems to be the case, since it seems that most of players who hate the changes came into the beta hating changes they never played, and continued to hate the changes after they played it, like they knew they would, and were incapable of giving and feedback that was remotely relevant. Stuck on stubborn is pretty much a base refusal to even try and deal with any change. When you decide you hate something you never gave a chance, you perceptions become tainted, and its self fulfilling prophecy.
    It is actually rude since you simply imply that is the case for everyone that has a problem with the changes.
    Nothing here matters.

  10. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reximus View Post
    Its not rude when it seems to be the case, since it seems that most of players who hate the changes came into the beta hating changes they never played, and continued to hate the changes after they played it, like they knew they would, and were incapable of giving and feedback that was remotely relevant. Stuck on stubborn is pretty much a base refusal to even try and deal with any change. When you decide you hate something you never gave a chance, you perceptions become tainted, and its self fulfilling prophecy.
    You have no clue what you are talking about. Many players who hate the changes went in with an open mind and despite not liking what they saw, spent significant amounts of their time testing things and discussing how to make the trees better on the forums. What you will see come 11/18 is a vastly improved version of the trees, and it is because of the beta feedback- both positive and negative.

  11. #936
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    Sooo.. Umm.. anyone else looking at the stickies in their class threads and thinking that all but the ones from NDA all need to be unstickied?

    Before we start another round of slapping other players for disagreeing with our opinions of course.

  12. #937
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Sooo.. Umm.. anyone else looking at the stickies in their class threads and thinking that all but the ones from NDA all need to be unstickied?

    Before we start another round of slapping other players for disagreeing with our opinions of course.
    Sorry what did you say ? Was too busy slapping :P
    Nothing here matters.

  13. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorwyn99 View Post
    Sorry what did you say ? Was too busy slapping :P
    *immune* is such a beautiful word. *smile*
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  14. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by Sthrax View Post
    You have no clue what you are talking about. Many players who hate the changes went in with an open mind and despite not liking what they saw, spent significant amounts of their time testing things and discussing how to make the trees better on the forums. What you will see come 11/18 is a vastly improved version of the trees, and it is because of the beta feedback- both positive and negative.
    When I received that surprise email informing me I had been invited to beta I was extremely excited.

    The day the first beta event was supposed to start I was chomping at the bit, clock-watching, waiting to go home and get in and try it. I was very excited to see what they had done, as I do feel that something needed to be done with the traits/skills set up (there is no room to grow with what is currently on live)

    It was a matter of seconds with the skill trees panel, and I realized the route they took tasted really bad. It's come along way and a lot of changes have happened from b1 to b5, but the damage for me is done and even though b5 is better, it's not enough to change my feelings about it.


    Re: all the NGE discussions... the changes Turbine makes don't have to be the same ones Sony made... It's the possible player reaction. The scope of the changes may be different but if overall reaction is the same after it launches, then I feel saying 'LOTRO's NGE' is valid.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    http://cruciblegaming.com

  15. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by Abaedan View Post
    We as humans are the most adaptable species on earth, we are constantly having to adapt our ways of life yet some people can't cope with a change in the skills system of a computer game, my god...

    I'm part of what I perceive to be the majority of people, that is those who understand that this is purely a game, one of many for some, and that it's not worth getting into a complete tizzy over, we'll just wait and see how it plays out. I'll wait and see how I like the changes, if I don't feel I'm enjoying myself I'll adapt and try a different, maybe a new, class, if that doesn't work out I'll move on. I'm not going to lose any sleep over this though.
    I'm forced to change my ways and adapt to the times when it comes to my job, finances, personal life, blah blah blah.

    I come to the game to escape from all the adult stuff. I play the game for enjoyment. Being forced here to adapt to something I don't like breaks the enjoyment.

    Many of us have been with this game for a LONG time, have hundreds of hours and probably hundreds of dollars invested into it, because we loved the setting, the game, LOTR, Tolkien, etc., and to see it being changed so dramatically in a way we don't like is going to rile us up.

    I agreed the traits system needed changing, I never expected it to be something that took away things I've had for years, and then take the remaining things and divide them up into specializations, some of which I have no interest in other than I want my base skill back out of it. I came into the beta very excited and left with a bruised face after being slapped multiple times by this skill tree thing.
    Helm's Deep Devamp killed my long time toons. Currently bouncing around between post-HD newbie alts (a warden and champ) and other games.
    Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!
    http://cruciblegaming.com

  16. #941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    I keep reading the word Scouts in posts.. Have they renamed Rangers?
    I'm confused by that too. It would be better if we stuck with class names that are actually in the game so that everyone knows what we're talking about specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    I don't understand this. In one hand, the reason to ameliorate "skill bloat" was to make it easier for the developers to give the players new skills with new expansions. On the other hand, all level 85 players have to look forward to as they level is a bunch of points?
    Trust me, you want more points. In fact, the amount of points and the cost of off-tree traits is one of the biggest things people have been complaining about with the changes. So more points is definitely exciting. Not only do you get to unlock another skill or trait, you have more points to spend making new builds. The more points you have, the more control and flexibility you have with making new builds, so really in this new system it's highly desirable to earn more points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Any of the Beta testers care to comment on how it plays if you are not standing around?
    They're a lot of fun, at least, I found them to be a lot of fun. You really have to work HARD to complete all the objectives, and even then, fully satisfying all the merit requirements is a huge challenge. It's also not always possible to complete all the possible side challenges in a battle so you have to prioritize and sometimes let some things go. It makes earning the higher tier medals really gratifying.

    For example, in the glittering caves battle you start out with an objective to ensure that you keep barricades intact, that you keep commanders alive, etc. So the primary objective is to run around and give orders to commanders, ensure they're healing and protecting the soldiers effectively, and keep an eye on barricades, repair them when necessary, etc.

    Then other side quests pop up along the way. One has goblin sappers charging to burn barricades, and you have to kill them FAST to ensure they don't set any on fire. If they do you have to douse the fire and repair the barricades, all while killing more sappers. Another one has a bunch of enemies charging one of the battle fronts that is close to the civilians, and you have to make sure they're taken down fast so that they can't reach the people. There are trolls that come as well that need to be burned down quickly.

    In another of the side quests, you have to kill some uruk commanders who have fortified themselves behind some barricades. The goal is to take down the barricades and run in and kill them and their adds, douse fires and clear away garbage, all within a fast timeframe.

    There are a few more quests in the glittering caves than just those, but that's a taste. And you have to do these quests, all while your other fronts are being attacked and barricades are being damaged, so you have to juggle those priorities.

    As you complete more battles with merit, you will earn points to spend toward specializing in an area of choice (Vanguard - fighting specialist, Commander - specialist in giving orders, Engineer - specialist in handling war machinery). The more points you spend in each area, the more effective you are at that particular role. So, as an Engineer the more I advance, the quicker my repair time is on barricades, the quicker my ability to load catapults, etc. And the specializations also unlock new skills and abilities as you advance. As an Engineer, I get to build and place new barricades, small catapults and so forth, and I get to throw down traps in battle areas. Other specializations get their own skills.

    If you go AFK, the burden of completing objectives falls upon the NPCs and soldiers. It's true they will do their best to manage those objectives, and they may have some success with it, but you will be bleeding merit like crazy because the fact is, they do need your help and support. The battle will go on with or without your assistance. But you won't earn much in the way of medals. An iron medal, contrary to what someone said earlier, doesn't reward anything at all. In most battles, if you go completely AFK you will fail/die and that will be that.

    You need to earn a minimum of bronze to get any prize progression, but even if the NPCs and soldiers did net you a bronze in a side quest, those points aren't going to get you very far. The desirable prizes come from completing gold and platinum objectives, and it's impossible to earn those medals without some elbow grease. Even if you have reward forwarding set, it would probably take you months of running battles and going afk to eventually get one gold prize. I don't see anyone actually bothering to do that, when battling is a lot more fun and will earn those prizes much faster.

    Platinum prizes are only rewarded for completing platinum level challenges, which take a lot of active effort to achieve.
    Last edited by frickinmuck; Nov 08 2013 at 03:34 PM.

  17. #942
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reximus View Post
    Its not rude when it seems to be the case, since it seems that most of players who hate the changes came into the beta hating changes they never played, and continued to hate the changes after they played it, like they knew they would, and were incapable of giving and feedback that was remotely relevant. Stuck on stubborn is pretty much a base refusal to even try and deal with any change. When you decide you hate something you never gave a chance, you perceptions become tainted, and its self fulfilling prophecy.
    I came into beta and disliked trees as soon as I saw the effect they'd had on my minstrel's flexibility and playability. I played it, but at no point was anybody I saw incapable of giving feedback that was at least somewhat relevant. I ran dps numbers and repeated tests over several minutes at a time, tracking minstrel dps and power consumption. I ran hps numbers and repeated tests over several minutes at a time, tracking hps and procs and effect application. I participated in beta tests as I could get time off from work (they tend to be weekdays only and during working hours). I continued to participate despite my continued dislike because if i don't give feedback they will assume I am okay with how things are.

    I've been here from Beta 1 through Beta 6 on Helms Deep. I still feel an extreme dislike for the trait trees and how they have dumbed down my minstrel. I still feel an extreme dislike for big battles where I am an unnecessary element in what is supposed to replace my raid/instance content for the new end game. I still believe Clickers of Thangulhad was a bad choice for end game content. It is not fun, it is not engaging, and the fabulous scenery isn't enough when in my opinion the game mechanics are extremely lame and boring. Yet if I continue to play I am forced to do this content in order to gain end game rewards. How is this different than players screaming they didn't want to raid for the raiding gear? I don't want to have to do Big Battles for end game items because I absolutely hate battles. For the record, I was never a fan of skirmishes or mounted combat either (even though minstrels in MC are really OP for their class).

    I gave it a chance - but you only get one chance to make a first impression. After that, like it or don't like it, your first impression colors every other impression you have.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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    Moochy, 105 Minstrel R10

  18. #943
    For an idea of how the Trait Trees function. I'll addmore about how the Skills populate the Quickbars tonight or tomorrow.
    [CENTER][img]http://www.djelle.dk/sig-lotro.jpg?&f=gp&id=7697947&lo=0e0c0e111pp10&t1=Gedachtnis&u=ironyandspite.guildportal.com&k=Irony%20and%20Spite&i=www.axiomfiles.com/Files/375005/Copy%2520of%2520Irony-and-Spite_LOGO1.jpg[/img]
    It's all to clear we are on our own.[/CENTER]

  19. #944
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gedachtnis View Post
    For an idea of how the Trait Trees function. I'll addmore about how the Skills populate the Quickbars tonight or tomorrow.
    Really well done. Nice! Kudos.

  20. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Description.
    I was always the sorry sap who was sent up to click the catapults for my kin raids. Know what.. after about 3 instances and figuring the mechanics out, it was fun. Timing the boulder to land RIGHT as the mobs hit the circle. Convincing the tank to stop running out in front and get the LT INTO the circle so I could do that. Listening as the raid said, "WHOA, his health went down by a third and all the adds disappeared". After 5, when I figured I could send my eagle down to fight with the group while I stood waiting for the next toss, it stopped being boring. If he started back, I targeted another mob and told him to attack. But, it did not help those who had already decided the raid was boring to be any more excited. By the last time we did it, maybe.. 2 months ago.. I did not need to do much. The raid DPS killed everything without me firing a shot.

    Maybe these instance will be the same as when it was fun.. I sure hope so.

  21. #946
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gedachtnis View Post
    For an idea of how the Trait Trees function. I'll addmore about how the Skills populate the Quickbars tonight or tomorrow.
    Very good. However, I will warn you the same as I warned another. When I was in ROI Beta, devs made a LOT of changes during the week between the end of Beta and Launch, while "polishing" the game. The guide I worked up for wardens went in the trash can. If you plan on anything more specific, like which skill leads to another on your RK, you should probably wait until it rolls out on live. Write it up, preview it then dont post but copy/paste it in a Text document (Word. OO Write, etc). Proof it when the game comes out for real and then let us have it.

    Thanks for the work.

    Oh, and if a mod would kindly move it over to the Helm's Deep discussion, with all the other HD stuff.. that would be helpful. PLZ.

  22. #947
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    I came into beta and disliked trees as soon as I saw the effect they'd had on my minstrel's flexibility and playability. I played it, but at no point was anybody I saw incapable of giving feedback that was at least somewhat relevant. I ran dps numbers and repeated tests over several minutes at a time, tracking minstrel dps and power consumption. I ran hps numbers and repeated tests over several minutes at a time, tracking hps and procs and effect application. I participated in beta tests as I could get time off from work (they tend to be weekdays only and during working hours). I continued to participate despite my continued dislike because if i don't give feedback they will assume I am okay with how things are.

    I've been here from Beta 1 through Beta 6 on Helms Deep. I still feel an extreme dislike for the trait trees and how they have dumbed down my minstrel. I still feel an extreme dislike for big battles where I am an unnecessary element in what is supposed to replace my raid/instance content for the new end game. I still believe Clickers of Thangulhad was a bad choice for end game content. It is not fun, it is not engaging, and the fabulous scenery isn't enough when in my opinion the game mechanics are extremely lame and boring. Yet if I continue to play I am forced to do this content in order to gain end game rewards. How is this different than players screaming they didn't want to raid for the raiding gear? I don't want to have to do Big Battles for end game items because I absolutely hate battles. For the record, I was never a fan of skirmishes or mounted combat either (even though minstrels in MC are really OP for their class).

    I gave it a chance - but you only get one chance to make a first impression. After that, like it or don't like it, your first impression colors every other impression you have.
    Very well put Beaniemooch as far as I'm concerned.
    [LEFT][/LEFT][CENTER]Taff - [COLOR="#00FFFF"][FONT=Century Gothic][B]LANDROVAL[/B][/FONT][/COLOR]
    [B][COLOR="#FF0000"]Captain[/COLOR][/B]/Champion/Guardian/Hunter/Minstrel/Runekeeper
    “A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship.”[/CENTER]

  23. #948
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post
    I come to the game to escape from all the adult stuff. I play the game for enjoyment. Being forced here to adapt to something I don't like breaks the enjoyment.

    Many of us have been with this game for a LONG time, have hundreds of hours and probably hundreds of dollars invested into it, because we loved the setting, the game, LOTR, Tolkien, etc., and to see it being changed so dramatically in a way we don't like is going to rile us up.

    I agreed the traits system needed changing, I never expected it to be something that took away things I've had for years, and then take the remaining things and divide them up into specializations, some of which I have no interest in other than I want my base skill back out of it.
    Bravo and well put. I hate when people do this, but ^^^THIS^^^
    Balgost-85 Guard, Gungyl-85 Burg, Dolfang-85 LM, Linyc-85 Capt, Dareg-85 Mini, Radhur-85 Hunter Formerly residing on Riddermark/now Gladden

  24. #949
    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Very good. However, I will warn you the same as I warned another. When I was in ROI Beta, devs made a LOT of changes during the week between the end of Beta and Launch, while "polishing" the game. The guide I worked up for wardens went in the trash can. If you plan on anything more specific, like which skill leads to another on your RK, you should probably wait until it rolls out on live. Write it up, preview it then dont post but copy/paste it in a Text document (Word. OO Write, etc). Proof it when the game comes out for real and then let us have it.

    Thanks for the work.

    Oh, and if a mod would kindly move it over to the Helm's Deep discussion, with all the other HD stuff.. that would be helpful. PLZ.
    Been there done that. lol. That's why I tried to keep to just functionality since we're pretty sure little of that will change.
    [CENTER][img]http://www.djelle.dk/sig-lotro.jpg?&f=gp&id=7697947&lo=0e0c0e111pp10&t1=Gedachtnis&u=ironyandspite.guildportal.com&k=Irony%20and%20Spite&i=www.axiomfiles.com/Files/375005/Copy%2520of%2520Irony-and-Spite_LOGO1.jpg[/img]
    It's all to clear we are on our own.[/CENTER]

  25. #950
    Quote Originally Posted by Sigram View Post

    I come to the game to escape from all the adult stuff. I play the game for enjoyment. Being forced here to adapt to something I don't like breaks the enjoyment.

    Many of us have been with this game for a LONG time, have hundreds of hours and probably hundreds of dollars invested into it, because we loved the setting, the game, LOTR, Tolkien, etc., and to see it being changed so dramatically in a way we don't like is going to rile us up.

    I agreed the traits system needed changing, I never expected it to be something that took away things I've had for years, and then take the remaining things and divide them up into specializations, some of which I have no interest in other than I want my base skill back out of it. I came into the beta very excited and left with a bruised face after being slapped multiple times by this skill tree thing.
    I would like some of the adult stuff to come back. Like respect, unwillingness to name call, in fighting, and bickering.

    Every expansion has had things included that some people were vocally opposed to, I HATED LI's, I loved that my hunter packed different tools for different situations, and I loved that I had to spend time and effort getting the right tools for a specific job, as an example. Still not a fan of LI's, they were billed as something they were not. LI's were marketed as a the "one weapon to rule them all" for your character. They would grow with you.

    That addition changed an aspect of game play I REALLY enjoyed and appreciated, and I was forced to adapt. There have been many things I have been forced to adapt to, and the day that I find a game I enjoy more than this one I will play it more. I hope that is where everyone is, if you have found something you enjoy more go do it.

    But please do so with out accusations, name calling, degrading, and other wise behaving in a disruptive manner.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000bd0ff/signature.png]Aidus[/charsig]

    "Live and Let Die"

 

 
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