-[B]Fence Sitter of Eriador[/B]-
"[I]All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal or fattening.[/I]" - Alexander Woollcott
Respectfully. Its absurd for people to be claiming rule 13 while violating rules 2, 4 and 7.
Can we get back to the topic at hand? Helms deep.
Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
Delego-L85 Hunter ; Stodden-L51-Captain ; Edhul-L61-Loremaster
Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler
Let face this fact: Most of our old skills are still there, just that they become part of other skills, are converted into traits or get gated in trees which suits their functions.
And, I think we will have more general skills, gated skills and traits in future updates and expansions. Who knows if our current 'missing' skills will come back with better (or worse) functions as our max level increases?
I admit I let myself get baited, and I already reported my own posts (yes, really), but I'm not the one who brought the issue of Fredelas' ban into this thread.
I will say it's really bloody rich to have the people who are busy throwing around accusations of shilling, censorship, and worse turn around and get in a huff when someone repeats statements about someone else that they heard directly from that person.
Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!
Since I certainly won't waste neither my money nor my time with big skirmishes ...
Any news what will come after Helms Deep?
I'll just make this comment about the expansion.
I do not currently want to play on live servers. The beta has spoiled me and I do not want to go back to the current system. I like the new skill tree's that much. Maybe I'm too casual or I prefer the "dumbed down" approach. I much prefer 22 skills over 46 skills.
[COLOR=#ff0000][COLOR=#ff0000][SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=red]Sarik - Warleader [/COLOR][COLOR=#339966][COLOR=SeaGreen]//[/COLOR] [/COLOR][COLOR=#3366ff]Jacin - Champion [COLOR=SeaGreen]//[/COLOR] [COLOR=Green]Aiden - Minstrel[/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]
Except that big battles isn't really making use of class roles much, certainly not requiring every single character to be able to do a non-dps role. It was pretty much a foregone conclusion from the time it was announced that any level 10 player in a big battle would be mainly moderate DPS or moderate support, but people kept thinking that big battles were some sort of traditional raid requiring everyone to play at their peak performance. Even in a skirmish raid I suspect you could take a scaled up level 10 character and be useful, all they have to do is attack the target assist most of the time, maybe throw out a scaled up heal or buff (yes, characters have some of these by level 10). And nothing in the system was ever going to force someone to group with another player who doesn't know the class, yet that was the worry I was seeing between the lines.The old system would never have worked with Big Battles upscaling characters from level 10- players wouldn't have the skills they'd need to be able to use as a scaled 95 in order to perform their class roles.
Like the rest of us, minstrels are going to have to figure out how to make a broken class viable on their own. Although leveling implications were no doubt raised during beta, I don't get the feeling that such concerns would have much impact on systems designed for levels 85+. It appears that they simply don't want minstrels to heal and buff or DPS. Putting buffs high in the relevant tree keeps this from happening.
Thanks to the punitive cost for taking skills outside your "specialization", and the OOC requirement for switching builds, it appears that Turbine wants players to specialize in exactly one role at a time. The out-of-specialty cost of traits make it idiotic to trait outside your specialty at low levels. You might end up with a red, a yelllow, and a blue build you use in different situations while leveling, but each of those will be solid-colour builds for the most part. It's rock-paper-scissors. You can't pick rock and paper at the same time.
Turbine could have jigged the costs so that you couldn't get two capstones while keeping the cost of traits uniform across all the trees. They could have made it expensive enough to get to a capstone that you couldn't trait past halfway in any other tree. Turbine could have made the trees flatter too by placing many more traits in each tree than we have points to buy. Any of these approaches would have allowed a higher degree customization within the trait-tree framework. They didn't. Unless I am very much mistaken, they won't. We might be able to rearrange the deck chairs a bit, but none of us has any say in the course this ship is following.
Is this "dumbing down the game"? Yes I think so, but pejorative terms aside, that may be exactly what is needed to keep a 7 year old MMO from fading away completely. The days of 100 man raids, corpse-crawling, and negative XP are long gone.
I'm not smart enough to know if these changes will prove to be good or bad for the game in the long run. I've seen a lot of games fail by not listening to players enough and I've seen games fail by listening to players too much.
“Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”
? Pravin Lal
If you're freep, you'll still want those extra 10 levels, PLUS those extra trait points you get from doing quests/deeds in HD. You could do without those points I suppose. Then there's the issue of gear, but that's a bit murky how it's acquired (itemization is generally last thing done in for an expansion), but without HD you might bet stuck with only crafted gear or whatever you can get from scaled instances.
Even if you don't get HD you will get the class changes.
In my opinion, skills earned from level 1-50 (minus legendary skills) should remain in the general skills available to all. In my opinion the trees should have kicked in after that, allowing for "extreme specialization" beyond that, but in conjunction with that I would have probably imposed a strong out of specialization penalty.
I have suggested this approach numerous times and will continue to believe this is the best thing for players and for the game as a whole.
"Live and Let Die"
Improved Staff Strike, the skill, does indeed give all those bonuses I listed. Here is the live trait which enables this skill to provide all these bonuses - which are now entirely lost in HD:
Anyone who knows this class, knows this trait and this skill. This is among the first traits obtainable by new LMs who are active in their gameplay because it's so easy to get (accumulates from level 1 and using staff strike 600 times, the limit per day is a whoppingly generous 200). Given the low-level considerations at which it is obtainable, it goes a long way towards making this class sturdy and less squishy on early levels, and the loss of Improved Staff Strike and these stats will be felt very hard.
Your statement displays your lack of familiarity with the LM class and its most basic skill mechanics.
I respect the fact that you are supportive of class changes, but why are you trying to whitewash and downplay the ramifications of lost skills and abilities upon the class and its gameplay when you are clearly unfamiliar with how this impacts the class? This only serves to illustrate, intentionally or unintentionally, that the more someone is in favor of the class trees and skill reductions, the less knowledgeable they are as to how to play that class and use all the skills it has.
An interesting observation from beta when it comes to the LM changes:
Those who favor the LM class changes and are most positive about it, tend to almost unanimously be DPS-spec LMs. The red dps line is the only one which has gotten extensive dev love and attention, and yes the dps is beastly and the addition of new dps skills is beastly. But, when other LM players heavily criticize (for example) the fact that the Ancient Master line is still excruciatingly painfully underdeveloped and fails to perform to even its live standards (let alone surpass it!), meaning that the non-red-spec playstyle which favors CC/debuffs is in considerable danger of being ineffective, the DPS LM players tend to react by whitewashing the issues and brushing them under the carpet.
I do not mean to generalize, and I do not mean to imply that all DPS LMs do that. Not all. But what I do mean is that I am convinced by now that those who play the LM class for the single sake of doing DPS, and not for CC/debuffs, and have the red traits perma-tattooed in their trait setups without ever swapping them, have a limited awareness of LM's full potential and versatility, and their enthusiastic reception of the LM class changes attests to their unawareness of how much in fact has been lost and nerfed.
Éala Éarendel engla beorhtast / ofer middangeard monnum sended / and sodfasta sunnan leoma, / tohrt ofer tunglas þu tida gehvane / of sylfum þe symle inlihtes.
Herwegur, and others patiently reply to messages that that seem very teacher replying to young student.
If I were a developer I would go back and read the same types of discussions that happened at Turbine when it switched Asheron's Call to Asheron's Call 2 and lost most of the user base with skill trees.
(PVPer's versus Community/ Kin/ PVE players) each vie to make the game in their image. Reckless, chaotic, opportunistic twitch fast game play versus stable, reliable, logical accomplishment and diversion.
Balanced development requires consistent development plans with visionary leadership. I fear the vision is leaderless and the constancy to purpose of "make a great game" is moving to "make a great amount of money".
I hope I am wrong.
Just my opinion.
LVL85 Hunter, et al.
Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri
(Pardon me while I do some figuring.)
Lets see, I think it was 31 points per trait for your primary spec, double that for secondary.
Means you need 31 points to fill one tree, (31+62=)93 pts to fill second, (93+62)=155 pts to fill all three
At 85, on a "finished" tune, we will have:
40 pts for leveling up, (This number will increase every odd level, so 5 more points for getting from 85 to 95)
8 pts if we did all class deeds, (Never goes up once done.)
3 pts of all books done, (Goes up when each new book is done, but only by one pt.)
3 pts from Moria, (Never goes up once done.)
1 pt from level 45 class quests (Never goes up once done.)
Total= 55 pts at level 85 to start off with.
Means you will be able to fill primary trait tree with 31 points, leaving ... 24 pts. However, those take two to use in the off set, so you really only get 12 traits out of them. So you get Tier 1 and Tier 2, plus some into three on the second trait tree.
5 pts when you get HD done, (Maybe get 5 per expansion, or maybe this is only because this is the first run through for this concept. Lets say never goes up with each new XPac.)
Total 65 pts at 95, with all HD done (whatever is required for that)
With no extra bonus per expansion, we end up with:
70 pts at 105
75 at 115
80 at 125
85 at 135
90 at 145
95 at 155
100 at 165
155 pts at level 275
(Back from boring math.)
Umm.. nope, guess we will probably never fill all three trait trees.
So, at 85 you will be able to max out one trait set, and then start the third tier of another spec. Not too bad, if you want a semi hybrid build, I guess.
I guess this raises the possibility that they did this so they would never have to make any new skills, just adjust the power of the ones we are getting with this expansion based on the max level we are. I guess its a cool concept. Definitely makes it easier to design content. Especially if the suits plan on cutting back staff because "we dont need as many people due to lack of money coming in, with a smaller player base and less new subscribers".
(All statements in this post are purely theoretical and not endorsed by Turbine, their management or devs or by Bugs err.. WB.)
Conspiracy Theories or Us
Also bear in mind that the devs said there is room to add new traits and more ranks to existing traits in future expansions, and with an off-spec penalty still in place this should discourage people from trying to get the capstones in two or three trees simultaneously, while still leaving some options to grab stuff lower down in the other trees.
I think it's possible to make new skills if they are locked in the trees, as we would then have to make choices to acquire them or other skills, or to acquire them or other traits. So long as the overall total of available skills remains at a reasonable level, it is not impossible to give us more choices to spend our points on.
Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri
Could any HD tester share experience about Champion class? How is it after revamp?
Both the capstone and the bonus are pretty great, especially when used together, but there are some options that digging into blue or yellow line give that are equally appealing. Some people will want to dig into yellow for Rain of Thorns, others may want to dig into blue for more focus generation - it really depends on the player, their playing style and needs of the specific activity planned.
Not only that, but aside from capstones and set bonuses, there really is a lot of stuff in each tree that not everyone will want. So it's highly unlikely that most players will want to fully max out a tree. It's far more desirable to fill out the tree until you get the capstone and T7 bonus, skipping all the traits that bore you, and then have some points left over for other trees. Most players will likely want to do that over filling out every trait in one tree.
put forward by Frieja awhile back. The skill bloat wasn't so much one of people having too many skills on their bars that they don't use, or don't know how to use, the skill bloat was about development and where characters can "go from here" and the difficulty of developing new and balanced content for classes that can do everything.
Aside from that, even if some novice players were to drop a few skills off their bars to make the game less confusing to play, that wouldn't change that those skills were still available to and used by most other players. So no, a few confused casual players removing skills from their bars does nothing to address the core problem at all.
Despite the fact that my gameplay on live is completely about maxing the possibilities for every skill on my bar, and despite the fact that I absolutely live for that type of challenging, crazy strategic frenetic gameplay, I support the class changes with enthusiasm. Why? Because I want a game that gives my characters a future that is EXCITING to me, and it's been years since I've felt any enthusiasm for the development of my characters. I am sick to death of the same-old same-old, and of getting "improved slightly tweaked skill x" whenever the cap is raised. I am sick of feeling like the only meaningful thing I can do anymore to distinguish and build on my characters is grind for better gear. Once you have all the golds, where to from there? Min/maxing is painfully, dreadfully boring to me.
Of course my heart aches for the feeling I will have when HD releases, of having my current playing style completely wiped away. It took me a hell of a long time to come to terms with that, and a grieving process for sure. There are still times when I shudder at the thought. But I truly feel it's for the greater good, and that by the time I've fully adjusted to the changes again when this all goes live I will already have enough points to do some pretty decent hybrid builds, so I'm not worried. There is more than enough great content in this expansion to distract me through leveling up to cap again and earning those points.
The level 85 hunter that will exist at launch is still playable and fun. The 95 hunter I plan to have down the road will be even more fun. And the great thing is, I now have future updates to look forward to. Instead of rolling my eyes with boredom at the thought of where my characters will go for Gondor and Mordor, I am once again excited about the future of the game.
I think it behooves us ALL to respect that there is a broad diversity of opinion with regard to these changes, and respect that it is indeed possible to know the current classes and yet still support the class changes. Just as it is possible to care about progression and the future of the game, and still hate these changes and want to keep the old way intact.
Last edited by frickinmuck; Nov 07 2013 at 03:20 AM.
a detailed guide here which lists out all the trait and skill changes. I didn't play my champ much during beta so I can't give any meaningful info beyond that. I know others will likely jump in.
So, I am going to make a positive post about some minstrels changes here, for the first time. Check my posts- i was part of the vocal minority. I was as 'Frustrated as Fredelas' with lack of feedback for our class from turbine, and the tone of some Turbine feedback we got in general threads in Beta, but i do believe in acknowledging change and so will give credit where it is due.
These are observed changes (Dev hasn' said anything-but 5.1 does show the most desperate and unanimous feedback has been partially implemented.) They are only some of the crucial ones raised in this thread by minstrels. Suggest non beta minis go to minstrel class summary thread under 'character creation and development' for other updates-especailly on critical bugs.
1.-OK so in 5.1 we definitely GOT RALLY BACK as a general skill (ie is avaialble in all specs). Trouble is it is buggy and doesn't appear always and it is still listed as blue trait only in tree. but after several repecs-it appeared. Boba has screenshots on minstrel class summary thread.
2.- Our dps has been denerfed. We are very glass-more so than RKs I think but my RKs are babies-I could be wrong. But dps red build is viable on landscape and in skirms, now. haven't tested in BB. (Too traumatised from earlier tests still. :P )
3. -stance icons are now different for each stance and heals ( edit: one stance-may be melody not resonance) now has blue icon -so there will be less confusion with active stances.
Overall: We are viable but fragile as secondary dps now in red. Still boring in blue unless the BB raid content is TOO tier2C level (haven't done all curent tier2C raid content and haven't done a BB raid-so not sure what we are balanced for) and yellow is odd to me but is improved-just not sure for what i'd use it......
(half seond rate dps LM half beta heals LM is what it feels like to me-not realy like a captain or a rk- as it is very aoe damage/group heal based.)
edited cause I confused myself
Last edited by Calta; Nov 07 2013 at 03:22 AM.
And the minstrel sang to them……”and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.”
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