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  1. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post



    This conversation continues to get more and more bizarre.
    Not really. What is bizarre was the use of that metaphor at all. I don't call it creative to try to fix something if the tools you have are inadequate. I call it stupid.

  2. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly View Post
    Well to use my main as an example, I play as a champ and I find myself currently using both single target and AOE (shing shing) traiting a bit of red and yellow hybrid. But with the changes I'll have to sacrifice something and go either deep red or yellow. I looked at the changes and a part of me wants to run red. But the new yellow looks like more my playstyle. So in a way, Im forced to pick one of two paths for a majority of the game. I know you can hold at least 2 builds and swap them, but I don't relish the thought of battle,swap,battle,swap repeated ad nauseum.

    This probably is better posted on the champ forum, but I just wanted to show my some of my thoughts about the changes. I am cautiously optimistic about them, sure. But I'd feel alot better if I were to see them myself, ya know?
    Sorry, just a quick note here. I was able to get "shing shing" across all three lines. Yes, I had to skimp a bit on others, but I was able to. I think I was even able to get the improved version in Red.

  3. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    I can only speculate on the reasons, because I can't read Sapience's mind, but I always assumed that the beta polls were only allowed to a) avoid the appearance of "squelching" negative opinions and b) as a "lightning rod" for the same, to give those who disliked the changes a place to express themselves without derailing other discussions.
    I think its disingenuous to cast speculation that is wholly tilted toward a descending opinion. Perhaps I am naive, but I think better of humans than that. I think they like to give feedback whether as an opportunity or as a recognition and I believe those on Beta and other places have that intention in mind.

    I am sorry, but I don't think the lack of substance to where a perspective resides is wholly left on either those embracing a strategic direction or those resisting it. I think a good company and sincere research can weed out the statistical far ends on either side, which is why median is relevant and not just averages.

    Comments like: "This is wonderful go Turbine all the way!" are just as dangerous and empty as "This sucks and Turbine is killing the game!"

    Let's try to have a bit more spirit of generosity in how we treat our fellow players, customers, and friends otherwise this all ends up being rather dismissive. People comment for the most part IMO because they care.
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  4. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly View Post
    I know you can hold at least 2 builds and swap them, but I don't relish the thought of battle,swap,battle,swap repeated ad nauseum.
    Realistically it wouldn't likely be like that at all. It would be more like, "battle battle battle battle battle ... ... swap battle battle battle battle." In other words, the situations where you'd feel the need to swap builds would likely be relatively rare for most content, even at lower levels. For example, if I'm a champ doing the Sharkey's brigands questline in Bree-land, I'd probably stick with AOE for the entire line, unless I found the boss to be too challenging (not likely).

  5. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    But the doctor doesnt then go to a healthy person and start giving them needless medicine either.

    My point is skill bloat is a personal problem not a gamewide one I loved having all my skills and used them readily on all of my classes. I needed no medicine, I didnt even ask to go see a doctor
    I don't think skill bloat is an individual player problem; I think it's a development problem. It's very difficult for Turbine to design group content for classes that can do everything. It's much easier to design content for the trinity. Turbine either doesn't have, or is unwilling to devote, the resources needed to develop content for classes the way they currently are in live. The solution to this development problem is to "streamline" the classes.

    I don't agree with it, but there it is.
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  6. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frieja View Post
    I don't think skill bloat is an individual player problem; I think it's a development problem. It's very difficult for Turbine to design group content for classes that can do everything. It's much easier to design content for the trinity. Turbine either doesn't have, or is unwilling to devote, the resources needed to develop content for classes the way they currently are in live. The solution to this development problem is to "streamline" the classes.

    I don't agree with it, but there it is.
    That's my understanding as well.

  7. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufus_T_Fyrfly View Post
    Well to use my main as an example, I play as a champ and I find myself currently using both single target and AOE (shing shing) traiting a bit of red and yellow hybrid. But with the changes I'll have to sacrifice something and go either deep red or yellow. I looked at the changes and a part of me wants to run red. But the new yellow looks like more my playstyle. So in a way, Im forced to pick one of two paths for a majority of the game. I know you can hold at least 2 builds and swap them, but I don't relish the thought of battle,swap,battle,swap repeated ad nauseum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Sorry, just a quick note here. I was able to get "shing shing" across all three lines. Yes, I had to skimp a bit on others, but I was able to. I think I was even able to get the improved version in Red.
    That's a good example of how the trait trees are designed. Some of the "classic" skills are embedded in one trait tree or another, rather than being general-availability skills. But good effort was made to move the most important ones (e.g., Captain Marks and In Harm's Way) to a position where players who feel those skills are vital to their play style could grab them even if they wanted or needed to choose a different specialisation. A lot of words were spent hashing out exactly where various skills should be placed, and most of the requests were honoured to some degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brom_Ironfist View Post
    Now that I've finally made it through to the end (as it is now) I can say that I've learned little and will instead rely on the guides in the various class forums for that information.
    Over the years, I've come to loathe the whole idea of "general" forums. Comparing this thread to the class threads is an excellent example of how I developed that opinion. Forums with tightly-focused topics almost always produce much better threads, because they can keep people on point. Lack of focus tends to breed threads where people go back and forth arguing twenty different things at once and then, because all the different threads of argument become impossible to follow, turn to picking sides and attacking each other instead.

    I mean, class threads in both the live and beta forums usually get pretty heated, but people at least do a better job of restricting the debates to "this specific change is bad and here's what should happen instead" rather than "you and everyone who agrees with you are terrible people and should be ashamed of yourselves".
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  8. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    Not really. What is bizarre was the use of that metaphor at all. I don't call it creative to try to fix something if the tools you have are inadequate. I call it stupid.
    The resourcefulness, problem solving and adaptation that comes in situations where one has limitations, that is the very essence of creativity. The more extreme the limitations, the more creative the resourcefulness. Necessity is the mother of invention. Have you ever seen Apollo 13? But I will concur, the metaphor became absurd over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JTollers View Post
    Comments like: "This is wonderful go Turbine all the way!" are just as dangerous and empty as "This sucks and Turbine is killing the game!"
    To be fair, I've never once seen the former, while the latter exist in abundance throughout the forums, fansites and in-game chat. That doesn't necessarily explain anything, but it may shed some light on why some people are getting a bit knee-jerk when they see a comment that has that flavour.

    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    That's a good example of how the trait trees are designed. Some of the "classic" skills are embedded in one trait tree or another, rather than being general-availability skills. But good effort was made to move the most important ones (e.g., Captain Marks and In Harm's Way) to a position where players who feel those skills are vital to their play style could grab them even if they wanted or needed to choose a different specialisation. A lot of words were spent hashing out exactly where various skills should be placed, and most of the requests were honoured to some degree.
    Yes, this was my experience as well. There was a great deal of effort and time put into making the most cherished skills as available as possible to players, regardless of build.

    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Over the years, I've come to loathe the whole idea of "general" forums. Comparing this thread to the class threads is an excellent example of how I developed that opinion. Forums with tightly-focused topics almost always produce much better threads, because they can keep people on point. Lack of focus tends to breed threads where people go back and forth arguing twenty different things at once and then, because all the different threads of argument become impossible to follow, turn to picking sides and attacking each other instead.
    I wholeheartedly agree with this. And, as has already been pointed out, the beta forums have dozens of threads devoted to general topics, so it's false to say there was no discussion of, or venue to discuss, those topics.

  9. #634
    I should be enthusiastic about an upcoming expansion. I've seen beta and can't say I'm looking forward to any aspect of the update. Of all the things they could have spent development time on - kinship revamp, pvmp map, new instances, scaled moria instances, a decent glff system, challenging content - I can't think of much I'd like to see less than this 'candy stall accident' change to skills and traits.

    I don't envy the people who make decisions over which direction the game takes. So many different gaming styles and opinions to cater for, and since it went F2P the need to insert profitable in-game perks and gimmicks. Having said that, I struggle to imagine how they could have got it more wrong for me this time round.

  10. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Realistically it wouldn't likely be like that at all. It would be more like, "battle battle battle battle battle ... ... swap battle battle battle battle." In other words, the situations where you'd feel the need to swap builds would likely be relatively rare for most content, even at lower levels. For example, if I'm a champ doing the Sharkey's brigands questline in Bree-land, I'd probably stick with AOE for the entire line, unless I found the boss to be too challenging (not likely).
    Thats great for landscape content but what about group content such as t2 raids? where you have other factors in your group like other players, that have a job and can die/crash/go afk etc etc?

    Its all great running about by yourself , but there are other people who enjoy grouping up and tackling content

  11. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frieja View Post
    I don't think skill bloat is an individual player problem; I think it's a development problem. It's very difficult for Turbine to design group content for classes that can do everything. It's much easier to design content for the trinity. Turbine either doesn't have, or is unwilling to devote, the resources needed to develop content for classes the way they currently are in live. The solution to this development problem is to "streamline" the classes.

    I don't agree with it, but there it is.
    But they are not developing group content and have spent the past few years making the game solo-friendly. This is what I don't understand? Why are they giving us classes for grouping without developing grouping content? And isn't that going to hinder the entire game up to lvl 85 since it was all designed for solo classes?
    [color=purple]Cefely Elenhilde of Rivendell, lvl 85 Hunter;[/color][color=turquoise] Nenriel Lirulind of Lorien, lvl 85 Minstrel;[/color][color=hotpink] Cherrie Berry of the Fallohides, lvl 85 Burglar;[/color][color=green] Harloe Palohelm of Rohan, lvl 85 Warden;[/color][color=red] Ayan Anfalase of Gondor, lvl 85 Captain;[/color][color=yellow] Onja Anfalase of Gondor, lvl 83 Champion[/color]
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  12. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    They are bound, so no trading. But they don't seem to reward doubles, either. At least, not in the testing I did.
    I've seen reports that they did repeat from (earlier?) betas. If that is not so, then I've criticised unfairly on that aspect. If it is a change which has been made since, then thank you to the devs. In any case, thank you for at least giving me hope...

    edit: ah, thanks Furtim for confirming that I'd not imagined it. Take point on two of things. 8 of them. 10 of them. 20 of them. That's where frustration lies sadly.
    Last edited by Atheling; Nov 06 2013 at 04:50 PM.

  13. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    But the doctor doesnt then go to a healthy person and start giving them needless medicine either.

    My point is skill bloat is a personal problem not a gamewide one I loved having all my skills and used them readily on all of my classes. I needed no medicine, I didnt even ask to go see a doctor
    I think the message we are getting is that from the developers and publishers of the game skill bloat was a very real problem in some aspect or another. Just because we as players didn't recognize that does not make it less true.

    That being said I think we have seen signs of this in ways we did not recognize like raid bosses being immune to certain skills or abilities.
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  14. #639
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    The resourcefulness, problem solving and adaptation that comes in situations where one has limitations, that is the very essence of creativity. The more extreme the limitations, the more creative the resourcefulness. Necessity is the mother of invention. Have you ever seen Apollo 13? But I will concur, the metaphor became absurd over time.
    I am helicopter engineer if I see someone trying to calibrate a compass with a hammer its doesnt matter how "creative" he is being with it, he is using the wrong tool, and I would suggest he starts using the right one. If someone has taken the correct tool out of his toolbox (a non-magnetic screwdriver) he doesnt do the job till he can get the right tool and do it correctly. have you ever seen air accident investigates?

  15. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by Frieja View Post
    I don't think skill bloat is an individual player problem; I think it's a development problem. It's very difficult for Turbine to design group content for classes that can do everything. It's much easier to design content for the trinity. Turbine either doesn't have, or is unwilling to devote, the resources needed to develop content for classes the way they currently are in live. The solution to this development problem is to "streamline" the classes.

    I don't agree with it, but there it is.
    Yeah, but players that have had the experience can say overall, "I don't think even skill bloat whether one agrees with it or not was even successful." The LM for example on live can get up to 42 skills, and with a mix build can get 41 in what is coming should nothing change. The biggest drop is one line full dedication nets you 32 skills (a loss of 10). However, going vanguard in BB will net you an additional 12-15 skills if i recall, and that is outside of all the new interfaces you get for each item you can interact, which each one of those has 9-15 roughly.

    There is much more to click and do and consider. This is just one example, perhaps other classes saw something different, but whether you like it or not, that is the State of Affairs. Whether that achieved the intended goal in eliminating skill bloat, I cannot speak to.
    TheInklingsKin.com

  16. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    Here, let me make it real simple for you..

    Mini's have LOST ALL 6 of their TALES WHICH ARE SKILLS that we used and they have not been replaced in any way or form.
    That is not really the case.

    1. Protector of Song has access to Tale of Tales, which gives three different Tales skills, one per stance (in fact, the Tales are merged with the stances themselves, applying when you change stance). Not only that, but these three variants are better than the Tales we have on live, offering Fate, Will, Vitality, Armour, Tactical Mitigation and one of the following: Finesse, reduced power costs, or improved Incoming Healing.

    2. Watcher of Resolve has a spec bonus of +70 Fate and +70 Will. While it only applies to the Minstrel, it is an obvious throwback to the Tale of Heroism.

    I get that you mean Tales are no longer available as basic skills, and no longer available to all builds, but that is part of the design principle of making Protector of Song the Minstrel buffing line, and giving it a few things that make it a worthwhile choice over Protector of Song. If a Minstrel can access all his/her buffs while in the healing line, then why would he/she try out Protector of Song at all?

    Some skills are gated by line and some are found in the trees. No one is arguing that this is not the case. However, the functionality of many removed skills has been merged with other skills, and Minstrel Tales merged with stances when traited Protector of Song is just another example of this.

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  17. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    The resourcefulness, problem solving and adaptation that comes in situations where one has limitations, that is the very essence of creativity. The more extreme the limitations, the more creative the resourcefulness. Necessity is the mother of invention. Have you ever seen Apollo 13? But I will concur, the metaphor became absurd over time.
    Allow me to re-phrase it, then. If I see you trying to freeze a pond for ice skating with a book of matches and a blowtorch, "creative" is not the word I'm going to use to describe you. Apollo 13 is a good example. They had to come up with creative solutions to problems, true. But they had the tools available to put those solutions into practice. Without the tools to put the solutions into practice, the solutions made for a nice mental exercise and nothing more. Without the tools, the solutions were impossible to accomplish.

  18. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cefely View Post
    But they are not developing group content and have spent the past few years making the game solo-friendly. This is what I don't understand? Why are they giving us classes for grouping without developing grouping content? And isn't that going to hinder the entire game up to lvl 85 since it was all designed for solo classes?
    So, first you are making the assumption that an observed effect has an assumed cause. It is true-ish. The fact that all classes can sort of do the job of several roles means that people didn't HAVE to group much any more. (No, I'm not suggesting no one ever groups.) Many times I've seen "I soloed *insert 3-man here*". You aren't SUPPOSED to be able to solo a 3-man. Since more people were soloing, there was not as much call for "group" content. When you are a company, you have to make decisions based on weird things like "Do enough people do this to justify X expenditures?" With these changes, fewer people will be able to solo 3-mans. More people will have to find a group. Therefore, in the future, more group content can be justified.

  19. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    When people say "no one asked for this", they overlook how many times people have made this same type of comment that you're making here. It's something we had seen a lot of in various forms. Everything from there are too many skills, to the skills felt weak, or when we increased the cap there were complaints that there was nothing new just unexciting 'enhanced' skills or that when people took a break they came back to a screen filled with skills they couldn't remember how to use.

    All of that feedback sent a very clear message.
    If anyone remembers Siege of Mirkwood's launch, they will recall how vocally disappointed many people were by the lack of progression after Moria. We wanted new traits, new trait slots, new skills, and just a general sense of improving over what we had before. While part of the problem was the 5 level gap and the poor gear on offer, a lot of it had to do with the fact that our classes had been virtually backed into a corner, with nowhere else to go.

    Consider what our classes got with Siege of Mirkwood. We only get a level 62 skill each at launch, and these were in many cases very underwhelming (consider, for example, the Captain level 62 improvement: Fighting Withdrawal, which just removes the -30% damage penalty of the rarely used Withdrawal). In fact, Hunter and Warden did not get any new combat skills at all, receiving just a port to Mirk-eaves.

    Fast forward to the next update three or so months later, when we finally got our level 64 skills (after much complaining), and again these are fairly unimpressive, mostly minor improvements to existing skills, like a small power restore.

    It is not that players don't want upgraded skills, or didn't appreciate the token upgrades they got. It's that the upgrades are and feel unimpressive, and thus our characters are essentially set in stone at a much earlier level, only increasing in potency by a tiny magnitude over time.

    Add to this the fact that many skills have already received upgrades by now, and some started to receive upgrades to the upgrades (Light of Elendil, for example), and we see that it was a very inelegant system that was simply unsustainable.

    I certainly was not the only one commenting on the lack of progression after Moria.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 100 - Riddermark - The Guild / Keepers of the Palantiri

  20. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    So, first you are making the assumption that an observed effect has an assumed cause. It is true-ish. The fact that all classes can sort of do the job of several roles means that people didn't HAVE to group much any more. (No, I'm not suggesting no one ever groups.) Many times I've seen "I soloed *insert 3-man here*". You aren't SUPPOSED to be able to solo a 3-man. Since more people were soloing, there was not as much call for "group" content. When you are a company, you have to make decisions based on weird things like "Do enough people do this to justify X expenditures?" With these changes, fewer people will be able to solo 3-mans. More people will have to find a group. Therefore, in the future, more group content can be justified.
    You'd think someone would stop and ask the people soloing 3 mans why they do it. Is it lack of sufficiently challenging things to do? A class which needs some rebalancing (ie nerf)? Someone just very drunk doing it for giggles but who'll spend the rest of the week solo in order to get the mats and gear to allow him to attend a Friday night raid? Should he stop soloing lest the raid be turned off because clearly he likes soloing far more than raiding? Not sure. Seems a bit more complex to me than reading numbers. Sure it must be to Turbine too to filter out cause and effect.
    Last edited by Atheling; Nov 06 2013 at 05:18 PM.

  21. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveBlackSheep View Post
    I should be enthusiastic about an upcoming expansion. I've seen beta and can't say I'm looking forward to any aspect of the update. Of all the things they could have spent development time on - kinship revamp, pvmp map, new instances, scaled moria instances, a decent glff system, challenging content - I can't think of much I'd like to see less than this 'candy stall accident' change to skills and traits.
    It is my understanding that there will be a official global chat channel with this expansion (in addition to our normal player-created chat channels), so that is an improvement from my perspective, and something that I've advocated for pretty passionately over the past couple years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    Thats great for landscape content but what about group content such as t2 raids? where you have other factors in your group like other players, that have a job and can die/crash/go afk etc etc?

    Its all great running about by yourself , but there are other people who enjoy grouping up and tackling content
    Grouping has never been more relevant than it is with this new expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atheling View Post
    edit: ah, thanks Furtim for confirming that I'd not imagined it. Take point on two of things. 8 of them. 10 of them. 20 of them. That's where frustration lies sadly.
    Yeah, I don't know how many items there will be available, but I imagine they will be adding more over time to maintain the appeal of Big Battles. I hope so, anyway. You can LOL at my hopeful naivete if you wish!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andthelion View Post
    I am helicopter engineer if I see someone trying to calibrate a compass with a hammer its doesnt matter how "creative" he is being with it, he is using the wrong tool, and I would suggest he starts using the right one. If someone has taken the correct tool out of his toolbox (a non-magnetic screwdriver) he doesnt do the job till he can get the right tool and do it correctly. have you ever seen air accident investigates?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    Allow me to re-phrase it, then. If I see you trying to freeze a pond for ice skating with a book of matches and a blowtorch, "creative" is not the word I'm going to use to describe you. Apollo 13 is a good example. They had to come up with creative solutions to problems, true. But they had the tools available to put those solutions into practice. Without the tools to put the solutions into practice, the solutions made for a nice mental exercise and nothing more. Without the tools, the solutions were impossible to accomplish.
    Here's another metaphor that got more and more absurd as it was stretched further. These points you make might be appropriate if the metaphor was a clear parallel to the situation in LotRO, but it's not. The reality is, we have a toolbox with appropriate tools, it's just that some people wish we had all the tools all the time. There is, in fact, never a scenario in-game where we have not got a tool that is appropriate to the task. There is never a situation in game where we have a tool that is as out of place for what we're presented with as a blowtorch at an ice rink. I wish I had more to add to this but we're getting so hypothetical now that it's become a meaningless discussion. If you were talking directly about actual situations regarding skills in-game, I would be more engaged in this discussion.

  22. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    So, first you are making the assumption that an observed effect has an assumed cause. It is true-ish. The fact that all classes can sort of do the job of several roles means that people didn't HAVE to group much any more. (No, I'm not suggesting no one ever groups.) Many times I've seen "I soloed *insert 3-man here*". You aren't SUPPOSED to be able to solo a 3-man. Since more people were soloing, there was not as much call for "group" content. When you are a company, you have to make decisions based on weird things like "Do enough people do this to justify X expenditures?" With these changes, fewer people will be able to solo 3-mans. More people will have to find a group. Therefore, in the future, more group content can be justified.
    Dont remember anyone soloing on level raids, or am I missing something?

    Also one of the reasons people have been finding content easier is that everyone in rohan was running around with FAs symbols ans multiple gold items, In RoI you had to actually complete the content to get the best gear, pugs for orthanc even with just a couple of weeks left till Rohan launched would be lucky to have 2 or 3 players wih a single FA in it or Saruman cloak/necklace.

    Pugs for Erebor had the whole raid with FAs and almost everyone had at least 1 gold item, a couple would have gold items in every slot possible, gold rings that proc, cloaks that proc, necklaces that proc, it was ridiculous , it was no wonder that content seemed easier we were taking it on jacked up on Tom Bombadils secret stash of fury powder

  23. #648
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    When making analogies, it's easy to let the analogy get away from you. Analogies are only useful if they reflect the thing being analogised. Since we're talking about a game, a game analogy is going to be closer than a tool analogy.

    When people ask to be able to do everything, it just reminds me of that Calvinballish game of oneupsmanship that kids play with each other. "I shot you!" "I had a bulletproof vest!" "Doesn't matter, the gun I shot you with was a bazooka!" "My bulletproof vest blocks explosions, though."

    Is it fun? Of course! If it wasn't, kids wouldn't play it. But, at some point, they get tired of it and go play football or something instead.
    [b][SIZE=3][COLOR="#FFFFFF"]Cainwen Ciaphas[/COLOR][/SIZE][/b][COLOR="#C3C3C3"], Captain of Crickhollow, [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/CiaphasCain]HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH[/url]!!!
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  24. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    It is my understanding that there will be a official global chat channel with this expansion (in addition to our normal player-created chat channels), so that is an improvement from my perspective, and something that I've advocated for pretty passionately over the past couple years.
    To my knowledge there is no official global chat channel coming any time soon. Nor was one ever tested during the Helms Deep Beta. There was at some point prior to the announcement of Helms Deep a discussion about possibly making an official channel, but I dont know if anything else ever came of it.
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
    Delego-L85 Hunter ; Stodden-L51-Captain ; Edhul-L61-Loremaster
    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  25. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    That is not really the case.

    1. Protector of Song has access to Tale of Tales, which gives three different Tales skills, one per stance (in fact, the Tales are merged with the stances themselves, applying when you change stance). Not only that, but these three variants are better than the Tales we have on live, offering Fate, Will, Vitality, Armour, Tactical Mitigation and one of the following: Finesse, reduced power costs, or improved Incoming Healing.

    2. Watcher of Resolve has a spec bonus of +70 Fate and +70 Will. While it only applies to the Minstrel, it is an obvious throwback to the Tale of Heroism.

    I get that you mean Tales are no longer available as basic skills, and no longer available to all builds, but that is part of the design principle of making Protector of Song the Minstrel buffing line, and giving it a few things that make it a worthwhile choice over Protector of Song. If a Minstrel can access all his/her buffs while in the healing line, then why would he/she try out Protector of Song at all?

    Some skills are gated by line and some are found in the trees. No one is arguing that this is not the case. However, the functionality of many removed skills has been merged with other skills, and Minstrel Tales merged with stances when traited Protector of Song is just another example of this.

    -Bel
    Have you raided? What mini in his right mind would go with a tree line that would give his group buffs but not be able to rez? Please click my link below and watch some of the video's Ramble On has done T2CM. I used all my skills and kept buffs up for my raid. Now instead of being able to do all those things, I am now only able to do one or the other? That's not options.
    Ramble On's Channel: [url]http://www.youtube.com/user/QuantarLOTRO?feature=mhee[/url]

 

 
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