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  1. #1
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Official Discussion: Helm's Deep NDA Drop.

    Feel free to discuss the Helm's Deep NDA drop here.

  2. #2
    It's going to be very different it seems. But I really like the changes and think it is a beautiful update to my favorite world...

  3. #3
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    Any information about creep changes?
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  4. #4
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    The dev's promised Helm's Deep will bring 'tough choices' with regards to the class changes... The only choice for many players will be if they keep playing or not, alas I don't think the choice will be all that tough in the end.
    Last edited by Bhoris_they_spider; Nov 04 2013 at 03:34 PM.

  5. #5
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    Class changes are awful. This is now a completely different game than I originally purchased, and not for the better. As Bhoris_they_spider said, the tough choice is whether or not to keep playing.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by OptimShi View Post
    Class changes are awful. This is now a completely different game than I originally purchased, and not for the better.
    But every year we've had class changes. Some have been very major changes. The classes that we play in Rohan are NOT the same classes we purchased 6 years ago! So I'm still baffled why there's so much despair now but not so much in the past.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by OptimShi View Post
    Class changes are awful. This is now a completely different game than I originally purchased, and not for the better. As Bhoris_they_spider said, the tough choice is whether or not to keep playing.
    I agree ... From what I have heard these class changes take out the ability to personalize your character and utilize a fighting style that works for you. It sounds as if we are all now clones. That will not appeal to many players who like personalization and the ability to stamp their own impression on a game that, so far, has allowed it. I have also heard the game content in mediocre with all emphasis on the big battles and not the other things people can do in Western Rohan. Suffice it to say, I am not pleased. If this is what we are to expect from now on then you can bet people will leave.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider View Post
    The dev's promised Helm's Deep will bring 'tough choices' with regards to the class changes... The only choice for many players will be if they keep playing or not, alas I don't think the choice will be all the tough in the end.
    Are you speaking as a beta tester? If so, please elaborate.

  9. #9
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    Epic Battles= Skirmishes 3.0;

    All involve daily locks on each quest (the side quests you get inside are random). Random jewelery rewards. No way to earn specific Epic Battles rewards.
    While on cooldown all you can get are marks and medallions. You cannot get XP.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Epic Battles= Skirmishes 3.0;

    All involve daily locks on each quest (the side quests you get inside are random). Random jewelery rewards. No way to earn specific Epic Battles rewards.
    While on cooldown all you can get are marks and medallions. You cannot get XP.
    So you cant get exp from Big Battles? Thats a good thing i guess, people were getting worried that low lvls could just lvl off this system.

  11. #11
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    Exp in Epic Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Epic Battles= Skirmishes 3.0;

    All involve daily locks on each quest (the side quests you get inside are random). Random jewelery rewards. No way to earn specific Epic Battles rewards.
    While on cooldown all you can get are marks and medallions. You cannot get XP.
    Quote Originally Posted by lordmattabir View Post
    So you cant get exp from Big Battles? Thats a good thing i guess, people were getting worried that low lvls could just lvl off this system.
    While the Big Battles Provide exp, you need the quest to gain it. You do not gain exp for killing monsters...

    Also, the exp gain is comparative to your Level. A lvl 15 character would get xp relative to his level and much less than a lvl 85. The jewelry rewards are also level scalable.

  12. #12
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    I was/am a beta tester from the first beta. The changes to my main class, Minstrel, have been soul crushing. I did a lot of testing and gave a lot of feedback during Beta #1 (as did many others). Unfortunately, NOTHING had changed for us in Beta #2. Minstrel was generally regarded as the most "alpha state" of all the classes. There have been some slight tweaks and modifications for Minstrels, but I still consider the class severely impaired.

    I apologize that my writing is not as effective as it could be. I'm sure you will receive much more eloquent responses with hard facts from other testers. But I wanted to let it be known that I am one of many minstrels who is unhappy with the state of the class. I'll be honest, after participating in Betas #1 and #2, and then reading the patch notes for Beta #3 that still contained no changes for the Minstrel, I just couldn't bring myself to log in anymore - to beta or live game. I don't have the time or energy or interest to take the pile of stink I was presented with and try to make myself enjoy playing with it. I did continue to read the beta forums, however, to see if the Minstrel was improving at all - it wasn't.

    I have not/will not pre-order Helm's Deep. This is the first expansion that I haven't pre-ordered. This is not the game I fell in love with 5 years ago. I may eventually purchase the expansion with accrued TP (I'm a Lifer) in order to follow the epic story through to the end, but I will no longer spend real money on this game.

    On a more positive note, the world building team has outdone themselves once again. The landscape is beautiful as always.

    ETA: For all the Minstrels who do not want to wade through all the pages of this thread to discover some of the disappointments, this quote from chrohandhaivey on page 6 sums it up pretty well (paragraph formatting, mine):
    Quote Originally Posted by chrohandhaivey View Post
    The uncontested loser is the minstrel. (Because this is the class I've spent the most testing time on, and this is the class that looks downright atrocious, I'll give you guys the most input here.) This class hit beta in a disaster state. Seriously... one of those little pecking desktop contraptions that you start and then it pecks could've done a better job than where this class started... or perhaps a monkey on crack jumping up and down on the keyboard (and this is me being incredibly nice and tame about it). Sadly, very little with this class has changed since then. Despite nearly unanimous negative feedback, this class has received no design changes from day one onward (just minor tweaks here and there... for perspective, it's like having a dilapidated house with a crumbling foundation that's about to collapse and saying you're going to make sure the portrait above the mantel is securely fastened).

    Rather than leaving a null stance (in addition to War-Speech and Harmony), the old names that Orion created for the 3 stances have been dug out yet again (Resonance, Dissonance, and Melody), creating the 3rd toggleable stance. Just like when Orion tried to make the changes ages ago the feedback has been overwhelmingly negative. The changes are implemented in an incredibly confusing manner, and even the class dev seems confused by the stance purposes and trait-line-alignment... the stance bonuses and skill alterations are jumbled around and not linked properly with the proper stance. I'm not even going to pretend to try to explain things as they are right now, because it's still awful. To Orion's credit he listened to the negative feedback ages ago and dropped the changes (leaving two toggleable stances and a "null" stance, reverting back to the name War-Speech that we'd always known, as we see it now on live).

    Unfortunately, no feedback whatsoever has been accepted this time around. In fact, a blatant disregard for feedback on this class has been the hallmark of this beta (it's really sad that with all the positive stuff going on in this xpack and all the many things I've enjoyed, the longest-lasting memory I'll have from my many months of beta will be the "shut up and accept my authority" mentality surrounding this class). One of the previous posters suggested taking a break or playing an alt for a while until after a patch has come out, and I'd honestly (as a primary minstrel) agree. The attitude toward the minstrel right now is "just stick with us because we'll fix issues for the first big 12.1 patch."

    Pure healing is insanely OP right now... honestly... I've not let anyone die in beta... and I've been so bored by the healing because I have less to do, not being able to buff anymore other than 1 buff at a time, that I've found myself drifting into watching tv as I'm running content. Damage is the same as always really, a little less on the skill rotations because some skills have been moved and locked into other trait lines (for instance, call of the second age, randomly now locked on healing). Yellow line is same as always not the best design and needs many changes in order to truly be viable as a standalone build.

    The number of problems with skills awkwardly being locked into other lines and you having no ability to reach them, incorrect bonuses or skill alterations, issues with stances, loss of hybridization from live, etc., are truly innumerable (yes, right now, currently, two weeks out). And I don't want to skim over that last one in the list there... there is a definite LOSS of hybridization from what we already have. Currently on live, for instance, I can trait 4B/3Y and with proper setup hold 3 anthems up at a time while healing... mid-fight, uh oh, we need a bit extra dps, I'll turn on War-Speech and go through my skill rotation to aid us until I need to drop for healing... we popped a FM, I'll hit Call to the Fellowship to boost the FM...... I've got the ability to hybridize between healing and group utility, I'm not the most maxed out uber-healer, but I'm good enough while having utility.... With the changes, you won't have enough trait points to truly hybridize in a "4/3" ratio/nature in the two lines.

    Call to the Fellowship, Call to Greatness, Inspire Fellows, and any other group utility skill is now locked into the yellow tree and most of them are not achievable if you don't select that tree as your base tree (or if you do choose that tree, you lose Rally, TS, etc from your base healing skills that are locked into that line). You won't have any of your damage skills because those are locked into another tree, so mid-fight stance swapping will be pointless... The ability to hold more than 1 buff up at a time is locked into traiting the yellow line. So expect to be able to function strongly in 1 of the roles that we have on live while not being able to do anything worthwhile in the others. Your skill rotations will be greatly lessened, your toolbox will be eliminated, and you'll have a few core skills that you grind to death. It's a very boring setup with exceedingly minimal "synergy" (if you can even call it that). So while other classes are receiving synergy, creativity, and fun, the minstrel is receiving vanilla, simplistic, and boring.
    Last edited by Frieja; Nov 05 2013 at 12:26 PM. Reason: Added a quote
    [CENTER][SIZE=1]MINSTREL and member of the vocal minority[/SIZE][/CENTER]

  13. #13
    I just wanted to say that there are min/maxers in the world... it seems all the really great beta testers are not only "maxers" but ultra maxers... they are the ones who solo BfE on challenge mode! They are going to miss some of the skills, but probably not as many as they fear they will. I'm a really good raider and will never even notice they are on another tree... Beta specific stuff: as a champ I can do more dps single target than before... it is very impressive... I can do so much more AoE it is beyond impressive... Now I can actually kill several strong mobs at the same time instead of killing them one at a time with barely any damage to the mob who isn't my main target.. I can do AoE that is no longer only effective against very weak trash mobs... I can martial up and be an effective tank... I just can't do them all at the same time, but I can switch trees between battles and do them all at different stages of a raid... It's very strategic stuff and it seems to me the maxers have missed the point...

    Also note that without this change there was pretty much no where left to go with class advances... Our classes were already so far advanced there was nothing left to give and no where to put it if tried...

    As for big battles.... totally lost to start... but really very easy to learn, especially if there are others in game who know what is going on.. in beta there was a long time no one had any idea whatsoever, as I think the devs were trying to determine the learning curve... there is so much there!.... you can succeed at any one part of it, and get rewards/xp... you can succeed at 2,3, or more parts (side quests) and get much more rewards. There are I think 4 BB's with probably 6 or 7 possible side quests.. you fight at Helm's dike.... then at helm's deep...then at the glittering caves, and then at the Hornburg, and they can be done solo, duo, 3, 6, or 12 man... how can anyone have any idea what BB's are really like with all these possibilities?...and you can fight as an engineer, an officer, or a vanguard and all these must be leveled with points earned doing the battles.... it's impossible to say what the battles will be like with fully developed players who know exactly what is going on.... they are fun at low levels and I predict will be a blast at end game.... and just try and imagine where the next BB's will be!....

    overall I cant wait...

  14. #14
    I will tell all that crafting got a fairly good overhaul. Tin has been removed as a mineable and now has to be bought from suppliers for making bronze(includes Khazard-tin). Khazard ores have all been turned into 1 ore node and you have processing recipes to make which ingot you need from the ore. Weaponsmith, Metalsmith,and Tailor got processing recipes so you can get experience in the craft with less resources used(I think Jeweler and Woodworker also got some but I didn't copy over a jeweler or woodworker or choose jeweler or woodworker to check so can't say for sure). Heavy armour classes(Capts, Champs, Guards) now have heavy armour use from the get-go and tier 1 and 2 metalsmith recipes got updated to reflect that along with the intro quests giving heavy armour as a choice. All component recipes have been removed and now the craft skills use straight resources like Scholar or like the tool recipes for Metalsmith. Forester got some changed processing recipes for different types of planks and leathers for all tiers and tailor(and presumably woodworker) have recipes that use the different types. As for crafting guild rep items they all took a hit in xp they give.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider View Post
    The dev's promised Helm's Deep will bring 'tough choices' with regards to the class changes... The only choice for many players will be if they keep playing or not, alas I don't think the choice will be all the tough in the end.
    I agree. There's no way I would miss Helms Deep. I think it's going to be a lot of fun.
    Jeffaman-Guarding Hobbit Jeffro-Burgling Hobbit Tinulaurien-Elf Lore Master Cephus-Champion of Men Lilnooblet-Hunting Hobbit Jeffrandir-Snooty Elf Rune-keeper- All of Brandywine
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider View Post
    The dev's promised Helm's Deep will bring 'tough choices' with regards to the class changes... The only choice for many players will be if they keep playing or not, alas I don't think the choice will be all that tough in the end.
    Easy choice for me. I continue to love this game and I have moved from coming to terms with the class changes to looking forward to Nov 18th so I can tinker with my characters as I select their traits and set up the various trees for each character.

    My tough choice is deciding which character to focus on first, and do I launch myself into Helm's Deep with my main or tinker with all my other characters first. Also, I'm planning on starting a new Guard so that I can get a good understanding on how the changes affect new and low level characters.

    Yep, you are right Spider, so many "tough choices" as I continue to thoroughly enjoy this game since March/April 2007.
    Landroval Server

    "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

  17. #17
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    Region, Epic and Quests: Similar to what we've had before. Turbine's world design team have excelled, as usual. It is still Rohan, but unique from East Rohan, with some amazing eye candy (Edoras and Helm's Deep, for example. The pictures don't do either justice).

    Epic Battles: Chaotic and fun. They can take some getting used to at first, as you are dropped in the, ahem, "deep" end. The scale is spot on and very impressive.

    Class Changes: Big and sweeping, and undoubtedly controversial. The most important thing with these is to give them a chance. They are very different to what we have on live, but the core elements of classes remain intact. Skills may be gated or found on the trees, while others are merged or accessed via procs, etc. After the initial shock wears off, you may find you really like the changes. I know I do. Not only have skills generally been improved, but cooldowns have been mostly decreased across the board. All classes also have a slew of new skills, specific to various trait trees.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

  18. #18
    mmm. So. Let's say that beta has been turbulent. If you hate the changes being implemented, your views were loudly put out by those who felt similarly. People did their best. The devs have listened. But some things will not change and some of those things are going to be dealbreakers for some players. Likewise, if you love the changes, then there were vocal beta testers always willing to put their views across too. The overwhelming impression I took was of people disengaging from the beta process as time went by. Make of that what you will.

    The basic run down for me is that you need to look beyond the trait trees. Those are just pictures. And once you do that you'll see that there's been a huge shift (not a minor one) in some classes. In all classes in some ways. For the bulk of players, how you play will change. These are significant things. Please do try them out if you can, read up on them and be aware of what will be in front of you on release day. My initial reaction was horror. My current reaction is only marginally less strong for some of the classes I play. It's no point heaping abuse on people. Really isn't. The devs must be working 20 hours a day currently trying to hammer things into shape for release day. But I think this change on its own merits isn't a bad one, it's just a wrong one for a game of this age and for the community I associate with within it. I'd define that community as players who play a massively multiplayer online rpg to play with other people and who have invested a lot of time in learning to play their class/es. I once thought it was a fairly large community, but one which is obviously diminishing as time passed with RoR.

    Of the three classes I play the most, burglar is the one I'm most content/least concerned about. There have been some good quality of life improvements made. I have niggles and issues but for me it's alright. Not going to say I love it, because I don't. I played a burg for how it was, not how it will be. I wanted a complex support class, I'm not sure that's what is there now. It does improve upon the de facto situation of post-ToO burgs. Swings and roundabouts.

    Loremaster was an odd one. It seems like the emphasis has been firmly placed on dps. Whilst I agreed with some changes which will be controversial (SI for one), I'm still deeply saddened to see such a nuanced class reduced to flashy effects and dps counting. The devs did listen to feedback, but it's just confused what I felt was a healthy first attempt to try and recreate the class within the strait jacket of how the trait trees have been implemented. One of those where I disagreed with the feedback acted upon at times only marginally less than the initial changes made. It may be a long process to find some sort of happy medium ground with this class because it's a huge square peg being hammered into a round hole.

    For minstrels, I don't know. It's not the class Orion left. For better or worse, that's gone. It feels adequate for dps on landscape but you have concerns about whether that is sufficient for anything else. If anything else is actually ever really required. The replacement for harmony is too odd to try and set down into words. With polish it could well be fine. There's promise there. It's two weeks before release. Blue line healing is healthy. Perhaps overly so. But splitting things out across the three trait trees leaves you missing what isn't there. It's hard logging into live and then into beta.

    I mean even something as simple and basic as saving all your skills in each spec in the exact position you placed them in isn't present currently. I'm sure that'll be fixed (if it's possible) but this is two weeks before release date and it's just such an annoyance to have to keep changing where the 'general skills' are each time you switch.

    In terms of graphics and landscape content, it is as you'd expect from Turbine.

    My personal view of Big Battles is that it will be a struggle to have them tested and bugfixed in time for the scheduled release date. While I appreciate the concepts behind them, I found them unengaging and sterile. It's no fun being on the fringes of the battle. It's no fun being presented with yet another minigame to play and which ignores pretty much everything about my level and class and gear. Micromanaging groups of soldiers to fight on my behalf is not why I play this game. Nor do I wish to grind out a whole new set of skills in order to partake in content which continues to reward via a random number generator. I hate the RNG as a way to offer loot. It does not encourage me to play more. It encourages me to log off and find another game to play. And I know balancing needs to be done, but going afk and still getting rewards in a solo instance just offends me.

    So I'm left with a game I loved, a kin I think the world of, a tribe who are just fantastic and the prospect of a second expansion in a row with limited appeal to me. I've not pre-ordered. Not even sure I'll buy.

  19. #19
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    Are the Beta Forums now open for people, who could not access them before?
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  20. #20
    The class changes are drastic, so you really have to try them yourself. After months of beta, many are choosing to move on from Lotro, or to resign themselves to accepting the changes, yet others love them.

    Some classes will enter Beta 2.0 on Nov. 18 so you might be better off taking a break or working an alt for several months, prime among these is the minstrel.

    If you have not already purchased HD by this time, don't purchase it until you've had a chance to figure out if you like what it offers. I don't think it's worth $40, and I don't think it's worth 4300 TP for a quest pack, a "Big Skirmish" pack and a main class that is broken and boring. YMMV.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namesse View Post
    The class changes are drastic, so you really have to try them yourself. After months of beta, many are choosing to move on from Lotro, or to resign themselves to accepting the changes, yet others love them.

    Some classes will enter Beta 2.0 on Nov. 18 so you might be better off taking a break or working an alt for several months, prime among these is the minstrel.

    If you have not already purchased HD by this time, don't purchase it until you've had a chance to figure out if you like what it offers. I don't think it's worth $40, and I don't think it's worth 4300 TP for a quest pack, a "Big Skirmish" pack and a main class that is broken and boring. YMMV.
    I second this. Try before you buy. I am a long-standing, high-spending LOTRO fan. I want into the beta in a positive state of mind and excited by the new possibilities a tree system could bring. At the end of my first Beta 1 session I went off the check out other games. By the end of Beta 4 I had taken out a sub on two of them.

    I'm afraid these changes are simply too much for me. It's too simplistic, too unchallenging and the hunter is simply a boring 3-4 button dps monkey now. No fun to play at all.

    But other opinions and tastes will differ which is why I say - try before you buy.

    I'm going to end by repeating what I said in beta at one point:

    "When a guy who is nearly 60, with no reflexes to speak of, is telling you the game is now too slow and unchallenging to be any fun, then you have some real problems."

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Atheling View Post
    I mean even something as simple and basic as saving all your skills in each spec in the exact position you placed them in isn't present currently.
    Quote Originally Posted by DanteIL View Post
    Plus, you will have to figure out ways to save your skill bars so that all of your skills don't mysteriously move around when switching specializations.
    You don't say? Is this for real? After they did the same thing with the initial MC release it didn't cross their collective minds that it would be greeted with the same echo if they did it again?
    As Atheling says, something this basic and they somehow manage to mess it up, second time in a row?!

    Really, I don't even need to read any further than this.

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheling View Post
    Loremaster was an odd one.
    This reminds me of lore master changes with Moria, where it was confused the most with the translation from pre-Moria. It felt like it had to have trait sets because all classes had to have them, but the traits did not fit rationally into three distinct categories. Three trait sets were big strait jacket, and having them in trees likely won't loosen it. Granted, DPS is fun but I was hoping to get back to a saner support class (or a game that had room for support classes).

    Are we still in a blue=tank/heal, red=dps, yellow=support/grabbag/oddities for all classes?

    For minstrels, I don't know. It's not the class Orion left. For better or worse, that's gone.
    But it's currently not the class we started with either, and the Isengard changes drastically upended the feel of it. Harmony never really worked or found a niche and seemed to exist only because they needed 3 stances (sort of worked ok in skirmish raids though). So upending it again will probably feel familiar I guess.

    I also remember in Moria how many minstrels from beta predicted doom, and many put theirs on hold until the first patch (I had lots of alts so I put mine on hold).

    It's no fun being on the fringes of the battle.
    But there's nothing in Helm's Deep that would be the main battle, no? Basically the only ones who weren't on the fringes were the army led by Gandalf arriving at the end.
    Last edited by Lohi; Nov 04 2013 at 11:41 PM.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    But it's currently not the class we started with either, and the Isengard changes drastically upended the feel of it. Harmony never really worked or found a niche and seemed to exist only because they needed 3 stances (sort of worked ok in skirmish raids though). So upending it again will probably feel familiar I guess.

    I also remember in Moria how many minstrels from beta predicted doom, and many put theirs on hold until the first patch (I had lots of alts so I put mine on hold).
    Very true Lohi. And I remember being exceptionally concerned about not being able to mainheal raids in yellow with the Orion changes before learning to love using harmony. I think the point being made in the paragraph from which you've picked out that sentence though is that the minstrel is in a rough state of development as of now and that these changes have stripped the minstrel down and then looked to build it from ground up. We are going to be looking at fixes to this continuing after release, that's by official confirmation now. So, doom and gloom, yeah take your point, but really the class isn't fully up to speed for launch day and it's been slow going over the past 10 weeks of beta to see changes and bug fixes being implemented. If I tell you that as part of the changes one of the skills deemed essential to minstrels and placed fairly high into yellow line was 'call to the fellowship' it may give you some insight into where beta minstrels are coming from. And there are some concerns around the strength of blue line healing being just a tad excessive, although the concerns around dps output are now scheduled to be addressed within beta.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belnavar View Post
    Region, Epic and Quests: Similar to what we've had before. Turbine's world design team have excelled, as usual. It is still Rohan, but unique from East Rohan, with some amazing eye candy (Edoras and Helm's Deep, for example. The pictures don't do either justice).

    Epic Battles: Chaotic and fun. They can take some getting used to at first, as you are dropped in the, ahem, "deep" end. The scale is spot on and very impressive.

    Class Changes: Big and sweeping, and undoubtedly controversial. The most important thing with these is to give them a chance. They are very different to what we have on live, but the core elements of classes remain intact. Skills may be gated or found on the trees, while others are merged or accessed via procs, etc. After the initial shock wears off, you may find you really like the changes. I know I do. Not only have skills generally been improved, but cooldowns have been mostly decreased across the board. All classes also have a slew of new skills, specific to various trait trees.

    -Bel
    Ah, Bel. The greatest of all Turbine's apologists. And you do it for free, to the mystery and wonderment of all sane men.

    The classes do not have "a slew" of new skills. Most classes have been gutted, and have significantly FEWER skills. How can you not SAY that? The fact that you don't tells more than you would like.

    The class changes are absolutely, unequivocably for the worse. They were made so that Turbine can develop new content easier, with no real consideration for the fun of the player.

    To me, these changes embody an absolute disregard to what the current population purchased and played. The social contract has been cast away, and all players now know the very real truth: this isn't your game, and Turbine WILL do whatever they wish.

    I have no doubt that the casual player, more interested in cosmetics and Bree, will like these changes. The game has been made drastically simpler, and thus, easier. They have moved virtually ALL of the incombat decisions to out of combat tree choosing. It's boring to actual gamers, like myself. But, I now know that I am actually not their target audience.

    To the players of LotRO, just know that I fought as hard as I could against this, in every way I could. Not a single word was heeded. This was rammed down our throats, and there was NOTHING anyone could do about it.

    Turbine undoubtedly will point to the Beta, and how many changes they made due to player feedback. Good for them. They took LotRO, gutted it, and presented a shadow of its former self that was a 2 out of 10. Player feedback certainly improved that, to probably a 3 out of 10. Turbine would love to say that their game is "50% better because of the players in Beta", but everyone knows that what we had was an 8 out of 10, knows it is less than half as good as it ever was.

    Poor showing, Turbine. I'm embarrassed for you.

 

 
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