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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    The essence though definitely included debuffing, it was core to the class and we did it better than anyone else. In many ways LM debuffs are crowd control; they don't stun or mezz but they greatly reduce the effectiveness of a crowd. At some stages in the game they would be the difference between struggling at conent versus succeeding. This is much of what makes a "support" class work.

    What made a lore master an "advanced" class was the subtlety it had. Much of that came from the debuffing. You didn't see the effect right away, there were no flashy effects, etc. So the improvements in pets are nice, allowing messing in all builds is nice, but debuffing seems to be diminished a lot. Especially untraited debuffing. So that essence of the lore master is no longer there, even if you can spec for it.
    Although I still disagree on the loss of essence (Burning Embers has the slow, just for instance, and let's be frank, we still have Wind-lore, Ancient Craft, Sticky Tar, Bane-flare, Blinding Flash, Sign of Power: See All Ends and Sign of Power: Command, and the Frost-lore, Fire-lore and Storm-lore are not that very difficult to get, especially not with the expansion that will come next year with even more points to spend) I do believe that in several ways the distribution of skills within the trait trees could be better. Your statement that we don't have debuffs though is in many ways not true, as, as can bee seen in my list, we still have 7 of our CC skills at our hand at any time, and the only ones affected by any changes are Wind-lore, whilst Ancient Craft and the stuns can be made more potent by traits.

    Other than that, with our most important debuff skills, namely Fire-lore and Frost-lore, there have been incremental changes. Personally I'd like it more to see those two replaced by i.e. traits giving you Bane-flare in addition to Blinding Flash and Sign of Power: See All Ends in addition to SoP: Command, but this close to launch day I don't think that would happen soon and even I don't believe that to be a problem enough to have the release date be postponed for.
    Do not trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
    Easca could manipulate a bull through a mousehole and still make it think it did it all by itself.

  2. #102
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    Seems that some people define "essence" or "soul" as "every detail in exactly the same way as it is on live".
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Seems that some people define "essence" or "soul" as "every detail in exactly the same way as it is on live".
    Couldn't have said it better myself.
    Do not trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
    Easca could manipulate a bull through a mousehole and still make it think it did it all by itself.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easca View Post
    and let's be frank, we still have Wind-lore,...
    Except that wind-lore is greatly reduced in strength. And all of the lore have shorter durations to cooldown rations.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Except that wind-lore is greatly reduced in strength. And all of the lore have shorter durations to cooldown rations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Easca View Post
    and the only ones affected by any changes are Wind-lore...
    Isn't it funny how I already acknowledged that Wind-lore is affected by these changes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Easca View Post
    ... Ancient Craft, Sticky Tar, Bane-flare, Blinding Flash, Sign of Power: See All Ends and Sign of Power: Command, and the Frost-lore, Fire-lore and Storm-lore are not that very difficult to get.
    ...and please don't take it out of context. Even with Wind-lore reduced in strength due to the attack duration (increased from +10% to +15%) and -50% ranged damage moved to Fire-lore we would still have 6 CC skills. Even if we disregard Wind-lore we'd still have 6 out of 9 crowd-control skills without any traits at all and 9 with traits.

    Also, Fire-lore and Frost-lore don't have a cooldown anymore so you could basically continuously hold it up on a number of mobs at the same time whilst an RK or another LM takes it up to him or her to put into effect the debuffs initiated by the certain damage types.
    Last edited by Easca; Nov 10 2013 at 07:59 AM.
    Do not trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
    Easca could manipulate a bull through a mousehole and still make it think it did it all by itself.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easca View Post
    Isn't it funny how I already acknowledged that Wind-lore is affected by these changes...



    ...and please don't take it out of context. Even with Wind-lore reduced in strength due to the attack duration (increased from +10% to +15%) and -50% ranged damage moved to Fire-lore we would still have 6 CC skills. Even if we disregard Wind-lore we'd still have 6 out of 9 crowd-control skills without any traits at all and 9 with traits.

    Also, Fire-lore and Frost-lore don't have a cooldown anymore so you could basically continuously hold it up on a number of mobs at the same time whilst an RK or another LM takes it up to him or her to put into effect the debuffs initiated by the certain damage types.
    Interesting. Your definition of CC must be different than mine. The bulk of what you listed are debuffs for most of us. CC would be Mez: (Blinding Flash and Bane Flare) and Roots (Cracked Earth and Herb-lore.)

    And.. spamming a debuff on many mobs in no way makes it as effective as doing it once for many mobs and then moving on to another AE debuff. Oh, and.. duration also affects your statement at the end. If it only lasts 10 seconds, or something, you basically will be cycling through many mobs with one debuff.

    (Edit) Wait.. I just realized something you said that made me laugh. More than one LM in a group. ... funny..
    Last edited by Darlgon; Nov 10 2013 at 09:31 AM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Interesting. Your definition of CC must be different than mine. The bulk of what you listed are debuffs for most of us. CC would be Mez: (Blinding Flash and Bane Flare) and Roots (Cracked Earth and Herb-lore.)

    And.. spamming a debuff on many mobs in no way makes it as effective as doing it once for many mobs and then moving on to another AE debuff. Oh, and.. duration also affects your statement at the end. If it only lasts 10 seconds, or something, you basically will be cycling through many mobs with one debuff.

    (Edit) Wait.. I just realized something you said that made me laugh. More than one LM in a group. ... funny..
    THE LORE-MASTER'S CROWD CONTROL
    Crowd-control skills that can be used no matter which spec you trait in
    1. Ancient Craft
    2. Bane-flare
    3. Blinding Flash
    4. Burning Embers (slow)
    5. Cracked Earth
    6. Light of the Rising Dawn (stun)
    7. Sign of Power: Command
    8. Sign of Power: See All Ends
    9. Sticky Tar


    Crowd-control skills gated in the Master of Nature's Fury spec
    1. Ents Go to War (stun)
    2. Ring of Fire (fire damage debuff)


    Crowd-control skills gated in the Ancient Master spec
    1. Fire-lore
    2. Frost-lore
    3. Warding Lore
    4. Herb-lore
    5. Storm-lore


    Skills used to spread certain crowd-control effects
    1. Gust of Wind (Burning Embers)
    2. Wind-lore (Fire-lore and Frost-lore)

    If you had actually read the conversation we were talking about debuffs specifically, but I guess if I accidentally used crowd-control to describe it I should provide the full list of crowd-control skills too.

    I never said I disagree with the the views on how the debuffs are handled, since I personally believe it could be done better. However, I will not just watch how people blow this all out of proportion: we still have the debuff skills and we still have the crowd-control skills, and as you can see of the totality of the CC skills nine will be in your possession no matter what spec you trait in and Master of Nature's Fury can potentially grant you two more and the Ancient master can potentially grant you five extra skills, one of which can easily be brought to its full potential plus increase your potency in MoNF (the Storm-lore grants you Storm-lore plus an additional potential +15% lightning damage) and the other two can be brought to partially their potential.

    Herb-lore is down the Ancient Master spec but it would just be an additional root to Cracked Earth, which you already have.
    Do not trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
    Easca could manipulate a bull through a mousehole and still make it think it did it all by itself.

  8. #108
    Based on a video explaining the class changes I think you missed some important things (could missed reading some myself too, but I think it's at least nice to mention):

    - Cracked Earth delayed root is only 3s (10s on live, 5s if traited 3 yellow) in all specs.
    - Burning Embers ticks every 2s instead of 5s (this also means the duration is a lot shorter, 10s by default, 16s max).
    - Sticky Gourd is like the improved version on live, the new improved version adds a burning embers DoT to targets in the fire for more than 4s (does it add one every 4s or just 1 time? or something else???)
    - Staff Strike flank bonus no longer consumes the flank by default (used to be on gear)

    Oh, and I think if you add the tier each trait is in would be some nice info to see.
    Overall after seeing the video I think the changes are good, I still think melee should be boosted in red line as well as some induction reduction, just so it fits in the line of increased combat pace. And the loss of the deep lore trait should be compensated a bit by making herb-lore and storm lore 5 targets by default (or let the targets increase with the Ancient Master skill).
    ~Dwarrowdelf (Bomb Squad)~
    Freeps: Vulcwen (R8 LM), Vulciel (lvl 100 RK), and some lower level alts.. Creep: Shadowweb (R6 spider)
    My ideas on how LM should be: [url=https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?543323-LM-revamp-reconsidered]LM Revamp reconsidered[/url]

  9. #109
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    I did some LI testing so here's legacies as they are in Beta 6:
    (OP already had a list, but I thought I posted a bit more details since I was doing this for all classes anyway )


    Weapon Major
    Name Min Max
    Burning Embers Initial Damage +1% +15%
    Cracked Earth Range +1 +20
    Fire Skills Critical Multiplier +3% +25%
    Light of the Rising Dawn Base Critical Damage +1% +15%
    Light of the Rising Dawn Damage +1% +15%
    Power Restored +1% +10%
    Staff Strike cooldown -1 -5
    Tactical Skill Direct Damage +1% +10%

    Weapon Minor
    Name Min Max
    Burning Embers Range +0.5 +10
    Cracked Earth Damage +1% +15%
    Cracked Earth Range +1 +20
    Gust of Wind Damage +1% +15%
    Ents Go To War Base Damage +1% +10%
    Lightning Skills Critical Rating +264 +416
    Lightning Storm Base Damage +1% +10%
    Sticky Gourd Base Direct Damage +1% +10%
    Storm-Lore Damage +1% +15%
    Test of Will Damage +1% +15%



    Book Major
    Name Min Max
    Beacon of Hope Magnitude +1% +15%
    Burning Embers Critical Chance +1% +9%
    Fire Skills Critical Rating +264 +416
    Signs of Power Durations +3 +30
    Target Resistance (Damaging Skills) -610 -1010
    Target Resistance (Debuffing Skills) -1420 -2260
    Target Resistance (Fire Skills) -610 -1010
    Wizard's Fire Critical Chance +1% +9%

    Book Minor
    Name Min Max
    Ancient-craft Targets +1 +5
    Bane Flare Targets +1 +5
    Fire-lore Debuff Strength +1% +5%
    Fire Damage Over Time +1% +15%
    Inner Flame Base Healing +1% +50%
    Pet Attack Duration -1% -5%
    Pet Morale +1% +5%
    Test of Will Devastate Damage +1% +15%

  10. #110
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    Nice thread, I was wondering about playing with a LM i think I will now.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easca View Post
    If you had actually read the conversation we were talking about debuffs specifically, but I guess if I accidentally used crowd-control to describe it I should provide the full list of crowd-control skills too.
    I did read the conversation. Crowd Control, locking a mob outside of combat until we are ready for it, applies only to the four I listed. Slows that prevent a mob from hitting as often or as hard, and skills that prevent a mob from running full speed are called debuffs.

  12. #112
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    Vulcwen and Gilean_EU, I will incorporate the information into the class changes list. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    I did read the conversation. Crowd Control, locking a mob outside of combat until we are ready for it, applies only to the four I listed. Slows that prevent a mob from hitting as often or as hard, and skills that prevent a mob from running full speed are called debuffs.
    And I understand what you mean now. Sorry for any misunderstandings on my part.
    Do not trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
    Easca could manipulate a bull through a mousehole and still make it think it did it all by itself.

  13. #113
    I've been considering the realignment of my LI Weapon Majors in light of the LM skill changes.

    Current list from Beta (courtesy of Gilean)

    Weapon Major
    Name Min Max
    Burning Embers Initial Damage +1% +15%
    Cracked Earth Range +1 +20
    Fire Skills Critical Multiplier +3% +25%
    Light of the Rising Dawn Base Critical Damage +1% +15%
    Light of the Rising Dawn Damage +1% +15%
    Power Restored +1% +10%
    Staff Strike cooldown -1 -5
    Tactical Skill Direct Damage +1% +10%


    For the post-expansion red line LM, my top 3 are BEID, TSDD, FSCM.

    I've always gone for Staff-Strike cooldown before (I'm assuming at least 4 majors), but with the nerf to SS (i.e., it no longer is "improved"), I'm thinking that I won't be using SS nearly as much as I have before.

    Same possible issue with LotRD, which now has a 30 second cooldown instead of the 15 seconds I am used to.


    It may actually be worthwhile converting one of those 4 majors to a 4th minor (for someone like me). Lightning Skills Crit Rating, Lightning Storm Base Damage, Sticky Gourd Base Damage, and Burning Embers Range all look very attractive, and I'm considering whether all four of these would now be better than SS CD or LotRD damage.

  14. #114
    Changing wizard fire pulses to crit chance appears to be a substantial nerf to that ability. How much does it tick for in beta and for how long? Wizard fire pulses is one of the most useful legacies for farming/deeding.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Idiotvillage View Post
    Changing wizard fire pulses to crit chance appears to be a substantial nerf to that ability. How much does it tick for in beta and for how long? Wizard fire pulses is one of the most useful legacies for farming/deeding.
    For my MONF LM on Beta (level 85), it is:

    Max Targets: 3
    Radius: 6 m
    149-212 initially
    256-366 every 2 sec for 10 seconds

    By way of comparison, here's IWF on Live:

    311-445 initially
    311-445 every 5 sec for 10 seconds
    Last edited by Scirocco; Nov 10 2013 at 06:15 PM.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idiotvillage View Post
    Changing wizard fire pulses to crit chance appears to be a substantial nerf to that ability. How much does it tick for in beta and for how long? Wizard fire pulses is one of the most useful legacies for farming/deeding.
    As Scirocco already said, the change is in the amount of time in between the ticks (I might have forgotten to put that in the class changes summary and will do so as quickly as possible) but the overall damage stays the same. If I recall correctly I had no problems with the cooldown (there not being one) but I haven't been in Beta 6 yet due to real-life complications, so I will have to rely on other Beta-users on that one.

    Basically the damage it does is the same except that that damage is now spread out over 10s rather than longer. Its damage can even be increased using the first tier traits of MoNF.
    Do not trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
    Easca could manipulate a bull through a mousehole and still make it think it did it all by itself.

  17. #117
    Note that Improved Wizard's Fire hits 3 targets for me. That's due to Flame of Anor, the top passive trait in the red line (I obviously have invested points in all the MONF traits to add damage). I've added my Live IWF for comparison so you can see the initial damage nerf. Unless you get the AoE version, it is weaker than Live.

    It is also interesting to look at the differences in Sticky Gourd vs. Improved Sticky Gourd (ISG is a mid-level passive trait in the red line that adds the BE effect to the base SG effect, and thus not available to blue or yellow line LMs). The base Sticky Gourd (available to all lines) is an AoE with a DoT. Here's a comparison when I've traited blue (with some fire damage traits from red) vs. traited red. Again, this is level 85.

    Sticky Gourd (blue line)
    max targets: 5
    radius: 5 m
    range: 25 m
    cooldown: 30 sec
    induction: 0.8 sec
    base damage: 1346-1922
    DOT: 501 initial, 501 damage every 4 seconds for 26 seconds

    ISG (red line)
    max targets: 5
    radius: 5 m
    range: 25 m
    cooldown: 30 sec
    induction: 1.0 sec [loss of induction reduction trait]
    base damage: 1983-2832
    DOT1: 583 initial, 583 damage every 4 seconds for 26 seconds
    DOT2: 240 initial, 312-446 damage every 2 seconds for 12 seconds [this is identical to my BE DOT]

    By way of comparison, here's my ISG on Live (5 MONF)
    max targets: 5
    radius: 5 m
    range: 25 m
    cooldown: 30 sec
    induction: --
    base damage: 1979-2828
    DOT1: 583 initial, 583 damage every 4 seconds for 26 seconds
    Last edited by Scirocco; Nov 10 2013 at 06:18 PM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Interesting. Your definition of CC must be different than mine.
    It is different for many people. Some insist only mez/stun is CC, but for others an AoE debuff is also crowd control, as in City of Heroes style.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    It is different for many people. Some insist only mez/stun is CC, but for others an AoE debuff is also crowd control, as in City of Heroes style.
    That's not CoH style. CC in CoH was often called status effects (or mezes, although technically mezes didn't count roots, so...) which were characterized by having a specific magnitude that had to beat the target's protection in order to go into effect. CC was also typically characterized as being neutralized by the purple triangles of doom(tm) (except for the equivalent of dazes and roots), which would periodically go down. A number of the control powers also had debuff secondary effects (Earth and Ice), but that was hardly something that was consistent across all of the control sets.

    Large scale debuffs tended to be part of the buff power sets, a defender thing (same sort of role as a healer in this game, except any CoH veteran would yell at anyone looking for a healer), with controllers using them as a secondary role. However, the other CC based class (dominators) had no access to the buff power sets at all.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by moebius2778 View Post
    CC in CoH was often called status effects (or mezes, although technically mezes didn't count roots, so...)
    Trust me, when I came from EQ, I was like, "but Roots are not CC, only mezes".. I gave up after a while and adopted the Lotro version four years ago.

  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    (Edit) Wait.. I just realized something you said that made me laugh. More than one LM in a group. ... funny..
    On Live, that would be true. Once Helm's Deep goes live, there's no reason not to have more then one LM as long as you have an open DPS slot. That's going to be the case for all the classes -- as long as you keep one DPS spec, then if there's more then one of the same class in a group and you still haven't completed your DPS slots, then one player simply switches to their DPS spec and you're good to go.

  22. #122
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    Sorry if I missed them, 2 queries:

    1) The level 3 for blue line is useless if you don't use a Raven?

    2) What about Sword and Staff - I missed where this is now? [EDIT] OK - just noticed it is red line, how far down? [EDIT 2] Dual-wield is a passive, the red line traits just make it better.
    Last edited by trcanberra; Nov 12 2013 at 05:58 PM.
    The Balrog lives!! Oh, and give MECCG a try.

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000002be0/01008/signature.png]Eladrath[/charsig]

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by trcanberra View Post
    Sorry if I missed them, 2 queries:

    1) The level 3 for blue line is useless if you don't use a Raven?

    2) What about Sword and Staff - I missed where this is now? [EDIT] OK - just noticed it is red line, how far down?
    I responded in your ents thread. Sword use does not disappear from the other lines.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcor View Post
    I responded in your ents thread. Sword use does not disappear from the other lines.
    Cheers - spotted that as well
    The Balrog lives!! Oh, and give MECCG a try.

    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000002be0/01008/signature.png]Eladrath[/charsig]

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by trcanberra View Post
    Sorry if I missed them, 2 queries:

    1) The level 3 for blue line is useless if you don't use a Raven?

    2) What about Sword and Staff - I missed where this is now? [EDIT] OK - just noticed it is red line, how far down? [EDIT 2] Dual-wield is a passive, the red line traits just make it better.
    1) Basically you won't have any use for it if you don't use the Raven, no. It's the Raven's buff after all.

    2) I think that has been answered but for good measure I shall say it too: Sword and Staff has been renamed "Fend them Off" and dual wielding is appliccable in all specs. If I recall correctly it is two or three down the red spec to get it (you need to have Sword and Storm first).
    Do not trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
    Easca could manipulate a bull through a mousehole and still make it think it did it all by itself.

 

 
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