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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosey21 View Post
    Making pigs fly??? hmmmmmmmm LOL
    Sounds like an RK skill.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Not really. People's main damage stats are so high now that the extra from oathbreakers is not that big.
    Actually, Oathies boost incoming damage, so the extra damage from them only gets higher as players' damage output increases.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Actually you cant use battle shout more often than once every 20 seconds, or maybe I missed something? I actually asked for battle shout CD to be lowered.
    Well, Sure Strike lowers cooldown on Battle-shout, so it should be more often than once every 20 seconds (more like once every 15-18 seconds). Also, with the new Jewellery set bonus (10% chance on hit: Battle-readied +5% Melee Damage +5% Tactical Damage. Duration: 10s) I think we'll be getting a good lot of battle-ready states during the fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Yes it works up to 80 meters, this is an interesting point because... unfortunately in Big Battles or whatever your group may be more than 80 meters apart, and the old 30 minute buff would have been more useful...
    When you actually need the buffs (sidequests), you'll surely be closer to eachother than 80m. Also, I can't really see where 80m would be an issue even in Big Battles as the regular attacks take place in the same parts of the area (e.g. East or West Dike). The only time where I can see issues is if the sidequest is far away from the regular fights and someone stays at the regular fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Yep, as long as your group stays within 20 meters. But you know, big battles... wide spread out groups... oh look, this change is actually less useful in the latest content!
    If your Captain stays in the same place all the time then perhaps, but I really don't see the problem. In the sidequests (which is where the action is), you'll be close to eachother most of the time, and for the regular fights the IDOME/MotSpe isn't going to make much difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Unless you have a real tank that wants SoD without you having to trait tanking... and as for cooldown changes, a little look around shows that most long duration skills had their cooldowns reduced for every class.
    If your "real tank" so desperately wants SotD he can try ask if the RKs or Minstrels can supply SotD. What matters for a Captain healer is whether he can keep his group alive or not, not whether Skill X will be available in Build Y.

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Well sure, if you buy the whole "one spec = 1 buff" thing I am pointing out is flawed. What if you are the healer but you want to buff the groups DPS? FAIL.
    Focus buffs Attack Duration, which boosts DPS, it buffs Tactical Mastery, which boosts tactical DPS. When RockX is done with To Arms it will also give a boost to Outgoing damage, again boosting group DPS. Revealing Mark is fairly easily available, which again boosts DPS. With a hybrid build (and given how you want to heal+boost DPS, you're wanting what a HoH+LtC hybrid build provides) you can also grab the -15% attack duration on Routing Cry, which again boosts group DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    And nerf yourself because you only get half as many actual skills.
    Not true. At lvl 95 you'll have 65 points, which will be enough to get capstone skill on a offspec tree and the midtree skill (e.g. ToN and Oathies while HoH specced). You'll also still get skills from set bonus. At worst you'll get 1 skill less compared to a Captain that grabs mid-tree skill+capstone + mid-tree skill in offspec tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    In theory. Results have yet to be seen. And yeah, wanna make a bet or two on how many 12 man t2cm get tanked or mainhealed by a captain? I could use some easy money.
    Probably, but AFAIK there's no incentive to run the T2CMs, so the overall number of T2CMs run will probably be low across the board.
    Last edited by Golhebron; Nov 15 2013 at 11:23 PM.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Actually, Oathies boost incoming damage, so the extra damage from them only gets higher as players' damage output increases.
    You know, I completely messed up here. I confused IDOME and Oathbreakers, doh!
    I'll delete my old post...

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    You know, I completely messed up here. I confused IDOME and Oathbreakers, doh!
    I'll delete my old post...
    **Gives Lohi a gold star**

    w00! Now I have one less!
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  6. #131
    There isn't much argument that the captain is getting buffed in terms of specialization but I haven't heard one good reason why skill gating the captain class and making them far less versatile was a good idea and how it improves the game. The only arguments I've seen put forth is to create less skills. While removing skills makes the game less difficult was it really necessary to makes an already incredibly easy game compared to its former self even easier? I also hear things like, well I don't have to buff so much now. Nobody said a captain has to buff, using your skills is an option and not a requirement. However, doing so gives people opportunities to distinguish themselves from others and builds depth and character. There are also reasons to justify the change and one is are that you can do a lot outside combat. This has no meaning in the moors and nearly none in PVE, its what you can do while in combat that has meaning. I'm not going to remember what I did before a battle... Its my memories of the game that bring me back and those ARE the battles. An easier game with less depth does not equal more fun. The developers and other players need to stop listening to the paper champs, whats good on paper isn't necessarily good game play.

    These changes however seem really good for standard classes that fit the Tank,DPS,Healer roles. Nearly every game uses some form of tiered skill tree approach but nearly every game only has Tank, DPS, Healer roles and it really appears LOTRO is trying to mold itself into that format while forgetting that their game was different and actually included real support classes. These classes do not fit that mold and so to make them fit you essentially need to butcher them into either a Tank, DPS and Healer role. No amount of, hey look this buff is really great now, will change that fact. Skill gating and removing versatility changes the core of the captain class form being a true support into a specialized DPS, Tank or Healer. Six years into a game really just seems like poor judgement to turn the captain into a Phoenix. I am sure the burg and loremaster are feeling this to some extent as well.

    Now you also should throw in the fact that the game wont be balanced for a very long time. It is a major overhaul to transition to skill trees and games with them at launch take years to balance. So are they just hoping the ashes of the Captain rise into something meaningful to offset this? There is just too much unnecessary gambling and fiddling with a class. LOTRO had a unique experience when it came to support classes, particularly the captain but I suppose everyone that picks up a captain after the Helms Deep will never know what it was like and that is a real shame.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dylbro View Post
    There isn't much argument that the captain is getting buffed in terms of specialization but I haven't heard one good reason why skill gating the captain class and making them far less versatile was a good idea and how it improves the game. The only arguments I've seen put forth is to create less skills. While removing skills makes the game less difficult was it really necessary to makes an already incredibly easy game compared to its former self even easier? I also hear things like, well I don't have to buff so much now. Nobody said a captain has to buff, using your skills is an option and not a requirement. However, doing so gives people opportunities to distinguish themselves from others and builds depth and character. There are also reasons to justify the change and one is are that you can do a lot outside combat. This has no meaning in the moors and nearly none in PVE, its what you can do while in combat that has meaning. I'm not going to remember what I did before a battle... Its my memories of the game that bring me back and those ARE the battles. An easier game with less depth does not equal more fun. The developers and other players need to stop listening to the paper champs, whats good on paper isn't necessarily good game play.
    I'll cut straight to the chase here:

    You sound like you've done more reading than playing, and/or you weren't in Beta.

    Most of the skills are gated at tier 2 and tier 3 in the trees, which is fairly easy to get in a splash if you are going for a capstone, so you really aren't losing that much with the gating in practice.

    Yes, a few of the skills are stuck to the specialization, but when you get down to it, there's enough flex with how you can trait that you can definitely figure out something that works, and carry on much the same way as you did before HD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylbro View Post
    Now you also should throw in the fact that the game wont be balanced for a very long time. It is a major overhaul to transition to skill trees and games with them at launch take years to balance. So are they just hoping the ashes of the Captain rise into something meaningful to offset this? There is just too much unnecessary gambling and fiddling with a class. LOTRO had a unique experience when it came to support classes, particularly the captain but I suppose everyone that picks up a captain after the Helms Deep will never know what it was like and that is a real shame.
    You and I clearly did not play in the same Beta - if you even played in Beta that is.

    I swear upon my captain's very existence that our support role is still intact.

    Anyone who has told you otherwise is lying.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  8. #133
    Yes the captain still has a remnant of support but the mold it is being fitted into is not one of a support class. It is either a DPS, Healer or Tank with some support abilities. This is totally different. I respect that you have your own style of play and these changes do not affect you as much but for others it takes that away and still I have yet to have a good reason explained, only excuses why it isn't that terrible. This is especially the case as there seems to be an easy fix that doesn't take anything away from your point of view. I'd really like to know how this is good. It is making the class thinner and thus weaker. It may be easier for new players but it removes depth and thus removes the ability for differences in play styles and how deep a players talents can make them better. To me it sounds like your main character should be a specialist like a hunter and not the captain if your OK with thinner versatility in exchange for greater specialization. The issue is you don't value the depth of support to the extent many others do, also really no need to shameless attack someones credibility. I've played beta however my arguement really has nothing to do with specific skills but a general change in how a class is built so someone whom has never even played LOTRO but has played a large variety of MMO's for years would understand.
    Last edited by Dylbro; Nov 14 2013 at 04:32 AM.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dylbro View Post
    There isn't much argument that the captain is getting buffed in terms of specialization but I haven't heard one good reason why skill gating the captain class and making them far less versatile was a good idea and how it improves the game. The only arguments I've seen put forth is to create less skills. While removing skills makes the game less difficult was it really necessary to makes an already incredibly easy game compared to its former self even easier? I also hear things like, well I don't have to buff so much now. Nobody said a captain has to buff, using your skills is an option and not a requirement. However, doing so gives people opportunities to distinguish themselves from others and builds depth and character. There are also reasons to justify the change and one is are that you can do a lot outside combat. This has no meaning in the moors and nearly none in PVE, its what you can do while in combat that has meaning. I'm not going to remember what I did before a battle... Its my memories of the game that bring me back and those ARE the battles. An easier game with less depth does not equal more fun. The developers and other players need to stop listening to the paper champs, whats good on paper isn't necessarily good game play.
    In regards to skill gating, it's really the other way around.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...36#post6882536
    Q15: Laire: Using all of their points, on average how many active skills does a 85 toon have? #LOTRO
    A15: Jinjaah: Our goal, and it isn’t the same across the board, is for all classes to have around 20 skills after spending all their points.
    One of the main goals the Devs set for the class revamp was to have around 20 (RockX later specified 20 is a guideline, not a firm limit) skill for each class. The skill gating then became a way of allowing/empowering specialization while keeping with the goal of 20 skills. Therefore, removing the skill gating would likely just cause the Devs to remove other skills to keep the amount of skills around 20.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dylbro View Post
    These changes however seem really good for standard classes that fit the Tank,DPS,Healer roles. Nearly every game uses some form of tiered skill tree approach but nearly every game only has Tank, DPS, Healer roles and it really appears LOTRO is trying to mold itself into that format while forgetting that their game was different and actually included real support classes. These classes do not fit that mold and so to make them fit you essentially need to butcher them into either a Tank, DPS and Healer role. No amount of, hey look this buff is really great now, will change that fact. Skill gating and removing versatility changes the core of the captain class form being a true support into a specialized DPS, Tank or Healer. Six years into a game really just seems like poor judgement to turn the captain into a Phoenix. I am sure the burg and loremaster are feeling this to some extent as well.
    Now you also should throw in the fact that the game wont be balanced for a very long time. It is a major overhaul to transition to skill trees and games with them at launch take years to balance. So are they just hoping the ashes of the Captain rise into something meaningful to offset this? There is just too much unnecessary gambling and fiddling with a class. LOTRO had a unique experience when it came to support classes, particularly the captain but I suppose everyone that picks up a captain after the Helms Deep will never know what it was like and that is a real shame.
    Well, what makes up a support class? To me, a support class is a class with several if not all of these features: buffs, debuffs, off-DPS, off-healing, powerhealing, crowd-control and cures.
    With the skill trees, I don't see why you'd not be able to do all of those (except long duration CC, but that's no different from Live). The specialization sets you down a path in regards to DPS, healing or tanking, but you can offset that with the traits.
    What I've been noticing a lot is how players comment with things like "I can't access skill X unless I do Y", and I think that's a bad perspective, a perspective that does not exploit the changes properly. Exactly which skills you're using is IMO much less important than what you're fulfilling by using available skills. You don't need Oathies to buff DPS and you don't need SotD to keep the tank alive, you have other skills available that will aid you towards the same objective but in a different way.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Nov 14 2013 at 06:07 AM.

  10. #135
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    Can I get some information from a different perspective real quick?

    I know there are a lot of really passionate people here who are either strongly opposed to or strongly for the changes. I know many of you have much more experience than I. I am a casual player who plays this game 3-6 months out of each year since launch, but I almost exclusively solo. I moved away from playing my Captain b/c I found both the damage output and power usage were too much to deal with as a solo player. Especially since there were so many better options available.

    These new changes coming have me interested, but I'm wondering about 1) Captain's potential damage output, specifically when spec'd for survival, and 2) how hard it is to maintain your power bar while fighting long fights against elites, etc. Is this Captain still mostly a team player with the new changes, or is solo as viable as the other classes now?

    Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by HumphreyMilkweed View Post
    Can I get some information from a different perspective real quick?

    I know there are a lot of really passionate people here who are either strongly opposed to or strongly for the changes. I know many of you have much more experience than I. I am a casual player who plays this game 3-6 months out of each year since launch, but I almost exclusively solo. I moved away from playing my Captain b/c I found both the damage output and power usage were too much to deal with as a solo player. Especially since there were so many better options available.

    These new changes coming have me interested, but I'm wondering about 1) Captain's potential damage output, specifically when spec'd for survival, and 2) how hard it is to maintain your power bar while fighting long fights against elites, etc. Is this Captain still mostly a team player with the new changes, or is solo as viable as the other classes now?

    Any input would be greatly appreciated.
    I´m rather neutral, so maybe I can answer your questions without any passion.

    1) red: high dps, fair survivability
    hybrid blue/red/ yellow: good feeling in the fight, high survivability
    yellow: low dps, outragingly high survivability

    2) Elites: no problem. Elite- Masters and Nemesis´: On yellow, you may have power problems, although I have to admit that good equipment traditionally solves the problem in a few weeks after launch.

    3) The captain is still a team player

    4) Although he is solo more viable than most other classes because he can farm his equipment from 3man instances without player controlled companions.
    The hands of a healer are the hands of a king.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Not exactly. A LoM Captain for example is giving:
    +1299 Parry Rating
    +3% Defence
    -10% Power Cost
    He has also lost access to Oathbreakers.

    This does nothing for a hunter smart enough to stay out of AoE range and manage his power usage.

    A captain in the other roles cannot supply the panic buffs (in harms way/shield of the dunedain) etc.

    A captain has materially LESS use to some groups in the new system no matter which line he specs in.

    We have lost flexibility in buffing, as well as in combat versatility. I still do not understand why it was necessary to tie the buffs to specs, I mean, you let us chose which of the ridiculous heralds we summon in any spec, but couldn't do this for tactics or x-brother?
    Allow me to add a vital bit to that argument: hunter no longer uses parry trigger survival. Agile Rejoinder is gone. It's nice to parry but doesn't save butt between potion cooldowns.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benthragand View Post
    I´m rather neutral, so maybe I can answer your questions without any passion.

    1) red: high dps, fair survivability
    hybrid blue/red/ yellow: good feeling in the fight, high survivability
    yellow: low dps, outragingly high survivability

    2) Elites: no problem. Elite- Masters and Nemesis´: On yellow, you may have power problems, although I have to admit that good equipment traditionally solves the problem in a few weeks after launch.

    3) The captain is still a team player

    4) Although he is solo more viable than most other classes because he can farm his equipment from 3man instances without player controlled companions.
    Thank you!
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  14. #139
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    For landscape content, if you choose the LtC specialization, you only neex to buy a total of 35 ranks of traits from any tree to unlock all of the traitline bonuses, so it's quite feasible to grab a bunch of LoM traits, and still do decent DPS.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  15. #140
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    One of the things that drew me to the captain class originally was the ability to help other players. I enjoy throwing buffs at other players and have been known to find a spot in lowbie areas and buff low level characters as they go adventuring.
    While I don't have beta test experience with this particular expansion, from what I have read it appears that most captain buffs are now procs and only apply to the fellowship that the captain may be a member of.

    Can any beta tester confirm or refute this? I was disappointed when IDoME was made to be a fellowship only effect and now it looks like tactics are going to be fellowship procs only. Are there ANY captain buffs that can be applied to players that are not in a fellowship with the captain? Alternately, are there any trait tree skills that will allow buffs to be placed on non-fellowship players?

  16. #141
    Essentially, no, there is no longer any buff that a captain can give to someone outside of their fellowship. The only thing we can do now is heal with Words of Courage.

    Eodread, Earendel, Lindrial, Isilmacil - Horizon
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  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    Essentially, no, there is no longer any buff that a captain can give to someone outside of their fellowship. The only thing we can do now is heal with Words of Courage.
    Thanks for the clarification. I must admit I am disappointed. If not grouped, the captain class now seems like just another version of a mundane warrior. What's the point of playing a captain solo now?
    I know the captain class is at their best when grouped but I regret losing the primary reason I created a captain in the first place.

    I guess I will play my other classes now. My captain was my main character but without the buff abilities that I always felt were core to the class I have less desire to play the class now.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunford View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. I must admit I am disappointed. If not grouped, the captain class now seems like just another version of a mundane warrior. What's the point of playing a captain solo now?
    I know the captain class is at their best when grouped but I regret losing the primary reason I created a captain in the first place.

    I guess I will play my other classes now. My captain was my main character but without the buff abilities that I always felt were core to the class I have less desire to play the class now.
    Eh....

    That's not very accurate.

    We will have a much more potent mix of suvivability, healing, and DPS than we currently have, and I strongly anticipate many videos showing us pulling off even more epic feats of strength after HD.

    We were always more than just buffs, and we will continue to be that after HD.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Eh....

    That's not very accurate.

    We will have a much more potent mix of suvivability, healing, and DPS than we currently have, and I strongly anticipate many videos showing us pulling off even more epic feats of strength after HD.

    We were always more than just buffs, and we will continue to be that after HD.
    All true, but I too will miss buffing strangers... I quite regularly buff everyone I see when I have time, nice to have a means to spread good will etc. Not game breaking in terms of effectiveness or anything of course, but I always liked doing it.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Eh....

    That's not very accurate.

    We will have a much more potent mix of suvivability, healing, and DPS than we currently have, and I strongly anticipate many videos showing us pulling off even more epic feats of strength after HD.

    We were always more than just buffs, and we will continue to be that after HD.
    What is not accurate about it? Our ability to buff players that are not in a fellowship with us has been removed. This was a core feature of the Captain class that appealed to me. We may indeed be stronger/better/faster/ new-and-improved after the class change but the role the Captain has always been described as the 'buffing' class. All classes can DPS and several classes can heal. Healing classes can still heal players outside of their fellowship. CC can still be placed on mobs whether you are in a fellowship or not. You can still DPS mobs outside of a fellowship. Every class is more than it's primary role.

    I'm not saying that the Captain class is 'better' or 'worse' since I have yet to play the revised version. My point is that the ability to buff players outside of a group has been removed and it is a core feature of the Captain class that at least to me was an important feature.

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunford View Post
    What is not accurate about it? Our ability to buff players that are not in a fellowship with us has been removed. This was a core feature of the Captain class that appealed to me. We may indeed be stronger/better/faster/ new-and-improved after the class change but the role the Captain has always been described as the 'buffing' class. All classes can DPS and several classes can heal. Healing classes can still heal players outside of their fellowship. CC can still be placed on mobs whether you are in a fellowship or not. You can still DPS mobs outside of a fellowship. Every class is more than it's primary role.

    I'm not saying that the Captain class is 'better' or 'worse' since I have yet to play the revised version. My point is that the ability to buff players outside of a group has been removed and it is a core feature of the Captain class that at least to me was an important feature.
    Um... if we were supposed to be a buffing class, why don't we have a buff rotation in comvat that isn't measured in minutes?

    It's cause we are a class.that buffs, not buffers. For an example of what a buffer is, go play a harmony mini.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    You know, I completely messed up here. I confused IDOME and Oathbreakers, doh!
    I'll delete my old post...
    It's ok, that's an easy mistake to make. And even the best of us make mistakes sometimes. Contrary to popular opinion, for instance, even I'm not perfect!

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    We will have a much more potent mix of suvivability, healing, and DPS than we currently have, and I strongly anticipate many videos showing us pulling off even more epic feats of strength after HD.
    Yeah, I did some crazy stuff during beta. It was really fun. I tried to record some of it after the NDA drop, but I couldn't get the video capture software I tried out to cooperate with me.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  23. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by HumphreyMilkweed View Post
    Can I get some information from a different perspective real quick?

    I know there are a lot of really passionate people here who are either strongly opposed to or strongly for the changes. I know many of you have much more experience than I. I am a casual player who plays this game 3-6 months out of each year since launch, but I almost exclusively solo. I moved away from playing my Captain b/c I found both the damage output and power usage were too much to deal with as a solo player. Especially since there were so many better options available.

    These new changes coming have me interested, but I'm wondering about 1) Captain's potential damage output, specifically when spec'd for survival, and 2) how hard it is to maintain your power bar while fighting long fights against elites, etc. Is this Captain still mostly a team player with the new changes, or is solo as viable as the other classes now?

    Any input would be greatly appreciated.
    1)the captain has a high potential to do damage. 10k devastates are possible from lvl 85 captains, but be prepared to do a lot of auto attacks as well. as someone else pointed out you can trait deeper and deeper into yellow to get some really nice survivability. be warned though respecing a trait tab can get expensive fast if you keep wiping and trying a different setup. also if you have not made it to rohan yet there are no elites or other difficult single mobs in east or west. the best you could do is solo a warband unmounted.

    2) power problems are similar to live, sometimes worse because rally cry power restore is deep in the blue line. you may want to think about getting some fate gear.

    3)again about the same as live, it depends on your lvl. at lower lvls you wont have as many options as higher lvl toons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You and I clearly did not play in the same Beta - if you even played in Beta that is.

    I swear upon my captain's very existence that our support role is still intact.

    Anyone who has told you otherwise is lying.
    the captain will NOT play the same as on live. that is a FACT. A support role is still there, but its is not the SAME. the classes will NOT be balanced by the release date. the captain is one of the closest but a few of the other classes still have a ways to go. but not to worry with BB so long as the healing and dps sides of classes are close its good enough for big battles.
    <img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/02204000000182cb5/01002/signature.png'></img>

  24. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    In regards to skill gating, it's really the other way around.
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...36#post6882536


    "One of the main goals the Devs set for the class revamp was to have around 20 (RockX later specified 20 is a guideline, not a firm limit) skill for each class. The skill gating then became a way of allowing/empowering specialization while keeping with the goal of 20 skills. Therefore, removing the skill gating would likely just cause the Devs to remove other skills to keep the amount of skills around 20."


    Well, what makes up a support class? To me, a support class is a class with several if not all of these features: buffs, debuffs, off-DPS, off-healing, powerhealing, crowd-control and cures.
    With the skill trees, I don't see why you'd not be able to do all of those (except long duration CC, but that's no different from Live). The specialization sets you down a path in regards to DPS, healing or tanking, but you can offset that with the traits.
    What I've been noticing a lot is how players comment with things like "I can't access skill X unless I do Y", and I think that's a bad perspective, a perspective that does not exploit the changes properly. Exactly which skills you're using is IMO much less important than what you're fulfilling by using available skills. You don't need Oathies to buff DPS and you don't need SotD to keep the tank alive, you have other skills available that will aid you towards the same objective but in a different way.
    Honestly I think your avoiding my entire point. I never said the captain doesn't have the same abilities they had before. What I am saying is currently on LIVE I am able to pull from a large pool of abilities in order to help the group ON THE FLY, that is a true support class, someone who can help out in any situation. Now I am predefined as DPS, Healer or Tank with a predefined set of support skills with very limited ability to adapt once a fight has begun. This is not better, it is in my opinion an extreme dumbing down of the class. Sure, it will help out those who struggled playing the class and it will be easier for new players to pick up but for the more experienced players and the long term enjoyment of the class it is a net negative. The update set to hit LIVE next week lets me go into a fight as a predefined role that was more powerful than what is currently on live but my adaptability and versatility to match the flow of a battle is nowhere near what it used to be. That is what made the captain class unique and a true support class instead of a DPS/Healer/Tank with support abilities. Say scenario X happens during a fight but just so happens I decided to be able to support scnarios Y and Z. With the expansion I will sit there and tell the group, sorry I'm not traited to help with X so I can't help you. That is NOT at all what defined the captain class. On live I may not be as powerful at Y and Z but I wasn't gated out of helping with X. The captain is being made easier and thus weaker for less experienced players that not able to juggle 30+ skills. To put that into a little perspective, say skill sets Y and Z are now 10% more powerful but I am locked of X... I am 20% more powerful at the things I traited for but overall 30% less powerful. This is only a improvement for players that couldn't or were to lazy to utilize their entire tool belt and a very large negative to those who did.

    In my opinion this update is cutting off the upper end of what a captain can become, which is done through the use of a large number of skills, in order to make it easier for new players and thus lowering its overall value in terms of what it brings to the table. I still have not seen one good argument why reducing available skills was a good thing for a support class. Why is this better? Easier does not equal better, in fact it often makes things boring and removes replayability.
    Last edited by Dylbro; Nov 18 2013 at 12:46 AM.

  25. #150
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Arda
    Posts
    492
    Quote Originally Posted by Dylbro View Post
    In my opinion this update is cutting off the upper end of what a captain can become, which is done through the use of a large number of skills, in order to make it easier for new players and thus lowering its overall value in terms of what it brings to the table. I still have not seen one good argument why reducing available skills was a good thing for a support class. Why is this better? Easier does not equal better, in fact it often makes things boring and removes replayability.
    Ironically, this may be one of the better arguments in favor of the changes.

    Turbine is a for-profit company.
    * As you said, it is evening out the playing field for captains of all skill levels (cutting off the upper end), thereby making elitism less useful and encouraging PUGs. Social interactions positively correlate with how long people will play the game, which translates into LOTRO Store sales.
    * As you said, this will make it easier for new players to become customers.
    * As you said, it removes replayability from the class, thereby encouraging customers to play a variety of characters (which positively correlates with LOTRO Store sales).

    It is not so much a question of "Will reducing skills be a good thing for a support class?" as "Will reducing skills be a good thing for LOTRO as a whole?" We are captains. We do not care about ourselves so much as we care about the good of others. That is why many of us play the support class. Reducing skills will bring in more profits, which will help the continued development of the game. Captains must sacrifice some of their morale now to help the community in its Time of Need.

 

 
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