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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    So how can something that gives more flexibility than the current trait system be "rotten"?
    the captain strength was being flexible in combat no matter what. the key words are IN COMBAT. on live i have skills i can use to alter the flow of the battle, no matter what i am traited. HD has fundamentally changed what the purpose of what the captain is. and as much as the devs (Rockx you are awesome) have done to fix the problems, it will never play the same. i did not care about my so called lack of dps or my supposed lack of heals or my lack of tankability. through hard work i overcame all of those limitations till i was close (getting closer at least) to any other class. we shall see how HD works out for turbine, aside from these new EBs and trait trees there is still the problem of the random loot and lag (only client side of course). captains will have to find another niche though.

    and the trait tree is not more flexible, it limiting so people have to make those "tough choices" so that a battle is not decided on skill and knowledge of your class rather what you traited before the battle.

    [y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y] [b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b] [r][r][r][r][r][r][r][r]

    [Y] [B] [R]

    [M][M][M][M]

    old system ^^^^^^^^ choose ANY lower case letter and mix and match as you please, put ANY M into leg slot. B Y R require ANY combination of the same color type x5.

    [1y][1y] [1b][1b] [1r][1r]
    [2y][2y] [2b][2b] [2r][2r]
    [3y][3y] [3b][3b] [3r][3r]
    [4y][4y] [4b][4b] [4r][4r]

    [Y] [B] [R]

    new system ^^^^^^^^^^ each lvl is unlocked by the one before it. so that trait you could have just grabbed in the old system is LOCKED behind something you could care less about, LIMITING the amount of mix and match you can do.
    <img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/02204000000182cb5/01002/signature.png'></img>

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by blkplg13 View Post
    and the trait tree is not more flexible, it limiting so people have to make those "tough choices" so that a battle is not decided on skill and knowledge of your class rather what you traited before the battle.
    Knowing what to trait isn't a demonstration of skill and knowledge? That precise ability has been a staple of raiding culture since... well, since before LOTRO.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Knowing what to trait isn't a demonstration of skill and knowledge? That precise ability has been a staple of raiding culture since... well, since before LOTRO.
    I think blkplg13 meant that the amount of skill and knowledge required in battle is being reduced. And he also complained that flexibility in traiting--and thus skill and knowledge required for traiting--is also being reduced. In fact, he may have been arguing that the skill and knowledge required to play the game is being reduced across the board. And if that is what blkplg13 meant, I agree with him.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    The trait system is more "flexible" at a cost flexibility in what we can actually do.
    One minor QQ and a loss of a lot of illusionary choices =/= loss of flexibility

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    I now am forced to use a herald or do without.
    You mean like all of us that have been forced to use a banner when we'd rather have used a herald for the last two expansions?

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Now the x-brother skill is based on what spec I choose, rather than what is suitable for the situation. And the same for my tactics skill. And which former "legendary" traits I have...
    Let's see...

    The XBro choice wasn't really a choice. The vast majority of time, it was Blade Brother, with the few occasions where Shield Brother was used. Song Brother was so badly broken that it was almost never used outside of a few corner cases. This choice was illusionary at best.

    As far as tactics go:
    Tanks got Parry
    Noobs got Focus
    Everyone else got Crit

    Another illusionary choice.

    With the legendary traits, for raiding it was:
    IDoME, FB, and OS.

    SotD only saw extensive usage in the 'Moors (where it just rocked), and the capstones played second fiddle to the above three.

    Again, this choice is largely illusionary.

    So what did we gain?

    Tactics die, and so do their buff sticks (good riddance), and we lose our out of combat buffing, which speeds up raids because we don't need to wait for the captains to buff anymore. That is a trade well worth it.

    XBros get baked into the traitline, however, each one gets STRONGER now. Following what was actually observed, not how it looked on paper, this is going to match up to what happened around 90% of the time.

    With the legendaries: IDoME gets given to use outright, if you go all the way to the end of your tree, you are guaranteed a capstone and FB. That's 3 legendaries right there. If you're in LoM or LtC, you can get a 4th legendary trait, either SotD or OS respectively. So there are situations where you can get MORE of them than what we have now. Oh noes, that's such a nerf.....

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    It is misleading to speak of a more flexible trait system, when our options have been so limited.
    I hardly see how this is limiting flexibility, especially flexibility that wasn't really there to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by blkplg13 View Post
    the captain strength was being flexible in combat no matter what. the key words are IN COMBAT. on live i have skills i can use to alter the flow of the battle, no matter what i am traited. HD has fundamentally changed what the purpose of what the captain is. and as much as the devs (Rockx you are awesome) have done to fix the problems, it will never play the same. i did not care about my so called lack of dps or my supposed lack of heals or my lack of tankability. through hard work i overcame all of those limitations till i was close (getting closer at least) to any other class. we shall see how HD works out for turbine, aside from these new EBs and trait trees there is still the problem of the random loot and lag (only client side of course). captains will have to find another niche though.

    and the trait tree is not more flexible, it limiting so people have to make those "tough choices" so that a battle is not decided on skill and knowledge of your class rather what you traited before the battle.

    [y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y] [b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b] [r][r][r][r][r][r][r][r]

    [Y] [B] [R]

    [M][M][M][M]

    old system ^^^^^^^^ choose ANY lower case letter and mix and match as you please, put ANY M into leg slot. B Y R require ANY combination of the same color type x5.

    [1y][1y] [1b][1b] [1r][1r]
    [2y][2y] [2b][2b] [2r][2r]
    [3y][3y] [3b][3b] [3r][3r]
    [4y][4y] [4b][4b] [4r][4r]

    [Y] [B] [R]

    new system ^^^^^^^^^^ each lvl is unlocked by the one before it. so that trait you could have just grabbed in the old system is LOCKED behind something you could care less about, LIMITING the amount of mix and match you can do.
    Yet some of those traits, like Relentless Optimism, sorely needed to be gated.

    As cool as the trait system was, there are problems with it, especially when you have some really strong traits that you can just pick.

    It also makes it harder to expand upon, because you can only have so many choices without adding in a never ending stream of skills just to give you more stuff to work with. Given enough skills (yes, we had far too many combat ones), and you eventually kill off the playerbase, because players no longer want to keep learning more and more and more skills.

    The way the trait system has worked has been static since MoM.

    The vast majority of our traits have not changed since MoM - truth be known, there's still a large contingent traits that have remained unchanged since SoA.

    Even our LI legacies, which SORELY needed overhauling, have been essentially the same since they were released.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Nov 12 2013 at 09:18 PM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Knowing what to trait isn't a demonstration of skill and knowledge? That precise ability has been a staple of raiding culture since... well, since before LOTRO.
    oh agreed definitely. knowing that you can trait a little more heavily into dps for a certain fight takes knowledge and then using your skills to their maximum effectiveness (to the point people cry nerfnerf) takes skill. my point is what dietlbomb pointed out.
    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    I think blkplg13 meant that the amount of skill and knowledge required in battle is being reduced. And he also complained that flexibility in traiting--and thus skill and knowledge required for traiting--is also being reduced. In fact, he may have been arguing that the skill and knowledge required to play the game is being reduced across the board. And if that is what blkplg13 meant, I agree with him.
    the trait trees are definitely not more complicated then the live system, and once you have traited and are in the fight, there is very little else for a cappy to do, aside from making sure every button is on cd (very easy to do now). granted this is hardly different from the pve on live, but that is because of CONTENT. not solely how OP the classes are despite what some people are saying. (seriously when is turbine going to realize that people are not afraid of difficult content)


    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    You mean like all of us that have been forced to use a banner when we'd rather have used a herald for the last two expansions?
    "all of us" "we'd"? i would not have rather used a herald. even if he had a "major dps upgrade" soooooo different pronouns pls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Yet some of those traits, like Relentless Optimism, sorely needed to be gated.

    As cool as the trait system was, there are problems with it, especially when you have some really strong traits that you can just pick.

    It also makes it harder to expand upon, because you can only have so many choices without adding in a never ending stream of skills just to give you more stuff to work with. Given enough skills (yes, we had far too many combat ones), and you eventually kill off the playerbase, because players no longer want to keep learning more and more and more skills.

    The way the trait system has worked has been static since MoM.

    The vast majority of our traits have not changed since MoM - truth be known, there's still a large contingent traits that have remained unchanged since SoA.

    Even our LI legacies, which SORELY needed overhauling, have been essentially the same since they were released.
    i do not disagree that our traits needed a shakeup. however i do disagree with the notion that people have put forward that the trait trees add more flexibility, which they do not, which was my point. not that the character of the traits needed to stay the exact same.

    also as for expanding upon, what do you think they are going to do for the next few expansion? (hint more points, more skills till some people start complaining that they have too many tools to work with and would turbine mind awfully if they could take them away again.)
    <img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/02204000000182cb5/01002/signature.png'></img>

  6. #106
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    It's an uphill battle, Almagnus. I think we're working from different definitions than them, so we're never going to be able to bridge that gap.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    It's an uphill battle, Almagnus. I think we're working from different definitions than them, so we're never going to be able to bridge that gap.
    What uphill battle? From my perspective, those of you who are happy with the changes have the high ground here. Those of us who think the revamp was a mistake have the tougher battle: to convince the developers to undertake another revamp.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Let's see...

    The XBro choice wasn't really a choice. The vast majority of time, it was Blade Brother, with the few occasions where Shield Brother was used. Song Brother was so badly broken that it was almost never used outside of a few corner cases. This choice was illusionary at best.

    As far as tactics go:
    Tanks got Parry
    Noobs got Focus
    Everyone else got Crit

    Another illusionary choice.

    With the legendary traits, for raiding it was:
    IDoME, FB, and OS.

    SotD only saw extensive usage in the 'Moors (where it just rocked), and the capstones played second fiddle to the above three.

    Again, this choice is largely illusionary.

    So what did we gain?

    Tactics die, and so do their buff sticks (good riddance), and we lose our out of combat buffing, which speeds up raids because we don't need to wait for the captains to buff anymore. That is a trade well worth it.

    XBros get baked into the traitline, however, each one gets STRONGER now. Following what was actually observed, not how it looked on paper, this is going to match up to what happened around 90% of the time.

    With the legendaries: IDoME gets given to use outright, if you go all the way to the end of your tree, you are guaranteed a capstone and FB. That's 3 legendaries right there. If you're in LoM or LtC, you can get a 4th legendary trait, either SotD or OS respectively. So there are situations where you can get MORE of them than what we have now. Oh noes, that's such a nerf.....



    I hardly see how this is limiting flexibility, especially flexibility that wasn't really there to begin with.



    Yet some of those traits, like Relentless Optimism, sorely needed to be gated.

    As cool as the trait system was, there are problems with it, especially when you have some really strong traits that you can just pick.

    It also makes it harder to expand upon, because you can only have so many choices without adding in a never ending stream of skills just to give you more stuff to work with. Given enough skills (yes, we had far too many combat ones), and you eventually kill off the playerbase, because players no longer want to keep learning more and more and more skills.

    The way the trait system has worked has been static since MoM.

    The vast majority of our traits have not changed since MoM - truth be known, there's still a large contingent traits that have remained unchanged since SoA.

    Even our LI legacies, which SORELY needed overhauling, have been essentially the same since they were released.
    None of this leads to the conclusion that we needed a trait system overhaul, or that we needed to become less hybrid, or that we needed fewer skills on our skill bars. They could have resolved these "illusory" choices by making the choices more interesting. Notice how RockX changed how the various tactics and Inspires worked during the beta? He didn't need trait trees to do that. They could have revamped the LI legacies, which have been one of the biggest sources of gripes over the last 5 years. LI legacies still need work. They could have fixed the heralds without overhauling the trait system.

    But no. We had to transform the captain class into 3 captain classes, none of which are as fun to play* as the old captain.



    *For me, you pedants!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    It's an uphill battle, Almagnus. I think we're working from different definitions than them, so we're never going to be able to bridge that gap.
    it uphill to both sides. personally i like a lot of things about the new captain. (the massive dps buffing is soooo sexy) the in combat buffs are awesome, a lot of the new LIs are awesome. but here is the thing. everyone plays differently. iv had the privileged of getting to know 2-3 of the best cappies on my server, as well as many who are not in the spotlight. not a single one of them plays the same and iv evolved my style as i learned from them.

    as strange as i find it, some people dont see the point of having the option of xbrother as the content doesnt require you to use 2 of them. some people hate spending 20 secs to buff a group. some people dont like having more then 1 toolbar of active skills. i do not understand the people who say this, because i have never had a problem with any of it. this is partially why i feel like im getting punched in the teeth with this new captain.

    my biggest problem was with the content. which was not addressed mr counsel member. epic battles scratches my minigame/hybolt/dailies itch not my holycrudihopewesurvivethistras hpull itch.
    <img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/02204000000182cb5/01002/signature.png'></img>

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Yet some of those traits, like Relentless Optimism, sorely needed to be gated.
    Yes it came out too early, but it was sort of gated in that you had to be higher level with a reasonable crit rate before it was useful.

    Another way to gate it would have been to make it like Inspire where you needed a level 50 trait to earn it. Gating can easily be done without a tree. I don't see any fundamental difference in gating between achieving level 50 and completing a specific deed in the old system versus achieving level 50 and completing some deeds in the new system. Both methods are essentially gated behind level, not skill or proof of personal responsibility.

    In the old system we could pick up less useful traits at low level and then dump them later on once more useful ones were obtained (I definitely have seen many cases where I'm just picking the only other trait available to fill out my second slot at level 25). In the new system once more useful traits come along I can't get rid of the old ones or start moving tier 1 points up to higher tiers.

    As cool as the trait system was, there are problems with it, especially when you have some really strong traits that you can just pick.
    What exactly is the problem here? So a low level char can get Relentless Optimism, does it mess things up for that player? What benefit to the player or the game is there to require the player to take a handful of less useful traits before being allowed to have a more useful one? Disallowing it certainly has great drawbacks as it limits the versatility and reduces effectiveness of hybrid builds.

    All these capstones and set bonuses and tier bonuses are essentially just bribes to coerce the player into being a specialist. The vast majority of players are going to be specialists anyway so why pick on the few players who want to do things differently?

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    But no. We had to transform the captain class into 3 captain classes, none of which are as fun to play* as the old captain.
    I think we need to rename those three classes: Commander, Marshall, and Chieftain. Or Jarl, Thane, and Ridder.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    I think blkplg13 meant that the amount of skill and knowledge required in battle is being reduced. And he also complained that flexibility in traiting--and thus skill and knowledge required for traiting--is also being reduced. In fact, he may have been arguing that the skill and knowledge required to play the game is being reduced across the board. And if that is what blkplg13 meant, I agree with him.
    I think that depends on your point of view. To me, I think you're making the Live class seem more complex than it actually is. The number of skills is obviously smaller now, but I don't think that necessarily equals an easier gameplay, especially not for Captains.

    A LtC Captain on Live can very often get a dying group back on track just by popping IHW+LS and perhaps VS and/or ToN+RC. A Helms Deep LtC Captain won't have VS nor LS available (and probably not IHW either), and the higher RC cooldown (at least for some Captains) will make it harder for the group (including the Captain) to get back on track. The LtC Captain will probably need to look at RoutC stun, IHW, Gallant Display or Grave Wound force taunt for some utility that allows the Captain to help the group in such cases, and either of those skills are significantly less powerful than what the Live LtC Captain has available.

    The same goes for the HoH Captain in regards to o-bleep moments or DPS. As with the LtC Captain, the HoH can't just pop IHW+LS + SotD but will instead need to rely on his healing skills (and perhaps IHW) to get the group back on track.
    The HD HoH Captain can't just swap to Blade-brother and thereby increase group DPS massively or pop Oathies. Instead, he'll perhaps go for ToN and either way have to make the most of bleeds, PA AoE and perhaps Telling Mark if he is to increase DPS (and keep the group healed at the same time).

    For me, these changes can just as easily call for more skillful play than Live does as it can call for less skillful play. Rather than having decent knowledge of a bigger set of skills, the Helms Deep Captain will have to make the most out of the skills he has available.

    Quote Originally Posted by blkplg13 View Post
    my biggest problem was with the content. which was not addressed mr counsel member. epic battles scratches my minigame/hybolt/dailies itch not my holycrudihopewesurvivethistras hpull itch.


    Now here I fully agree. A massive issue with the most of the group content available on Live is that you don't need the survivability a fully healing specced Captain/RK/Minstrel can supply, and especially with the OP 5r2b Captain we're used to high amounts of DPS+DPSbuffs in combination with plenty of healing.

    My sincere hope is that the content will be balanced so we will actually need good healing, good tanking combined with good DPS rather than the current meh healing, pure aggrobattles combined with a much DPS as possible. If the content doesn't get better, even a perfect class revamp won't get me back to LotrO.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Nov 13 2013 at 12:55 AM.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Yes it came out too early, but it was sort of gated in that you had to be higher level with a reasonable crit rate before it was useful.

    Another way to gate it would have been to make it like Inspire where you needed a level 50 trait to earn it. Gating can easily be done without a tree. I don't see any fundamental difference in gating between achieving level 50 and completing a specific deed in the old system versus achieving level 50 and completing some deeds in the new system. Both methods are essentially gated behind level, not skill or proof of personal responsibility.

    In the old system we could pick up less useful traits at low level and then dump them later on once more useful ones were obtained (I definitely have seen many cases where I'm just picking the only other trait available to fill out my second slot at level 25). In the new system once more useful traits come along I can't get rid of the old ones or start moving tier 1 points up to higher tiers.


    What exactly is the problem here? So a low level char can get Relentless Optimism, does it mess things up for that player? What benefit to the player or the game is there to require the player to take a handful of less useful traits before being allowed to have a more useful one? Disallowing it certainly has great drawbacks as it limits the versatility and reduces effectiveness of hybrid builds.

    All these capstones and set bonuses and tier bonuses are essentially just bribes to coerce the player into being a specialist. The vast majority of players are going to be specialists anyway so why pick on the few players who want to do things differently?
    You don't get how game balancing works.

    You NEVER balance for the low end, always balance the top, because eventually the low end will become skilled enough and well geared enough to be at the top.

    Likewise with LotRO - it does not matter what the non-level cap players have access to, so long as the gameplay at level cap is balanced, or close enough that things aren't completely out of whack.

    The other thing we have seen time and time again within this game is that players go with whatever path gives them the most bang for their buck, which includes exploiting instances and other game mechanics (gear swapping, I'm looking at you).

    When you have a trait like Relentless Optimism that provides so much healing for zero investment from the HoH traitline, the game is broken because that one trait arguably provides more healing bonus than the capstone. When combines with the state of the legacies pre-HD, it's no small wonder that a 5R build could pull off competitive HPS to the 5B dedicated healing build.

    Our top end players figured out that:
    2 Perserverance + 4 Hytbold Healer + high crit + healing emblem + Relentless Optimism + Now for Wrath + Renewed Voice + Expert Attacks + 4 LtC Trait Bonus = A ton of Rally Cry and VS Spam, which generated a lot of healing.

    That we could also get IDoME, OS, and FB (arguably the three strongest legendaries) was icing on the cake.

    I mean, even RockX said that the current LtC based healing builds were broken.
    Last edited by Almagnus1; Nov 13 2013 at 02:46 AM.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  14. #114
    There are some amazing additions and enhancements being made after reading the list. It looks fresh and improved, the new design should help newer players understand mechanics. However, I almost feel like the changes are being made by someone who doesn't play the captain as a main character. I have played almost every MMO released in the last 15 years and the captain in LOTRO is the most versatile support class I have played. Most games generally have a Tank, DPS and Healer class each mixed with some form of support abilities. The captain in my opinion is a true support class. I have played the captain extensively as my main since launch and believe most people that play the captain as their main character do so because of its versatility. These changes do not appear to take the importance of versatility in regards to this class and the game as a whole into account and are moving LOTRO back into essentially 3 class roles, DPS, Tank and Healer and that is ultimately tragic for the Captain class. It may be getting incredible new abilities but its losing its soul. If I wanted to be great at melee dps I would play a champion, if I wanted to be an awesome healer I would play a minstrel, if I wanted to play a tank I would play a guardian. However I don't, I want to give my group options, a captain makes a bad group good and a good group great. At the core the captain is essentially a lesser version of the DPS, Healer and TANK classes with a huge amount of versatility thrown in with an ability to further specialize. This update removes the versatility while boosting each individual category so the captain is left with not so lesser versions of the DPS, Healer and Tank classes and very little versatility.

    My personal joy in playing the captain comes from my ability to pull magic out of a hat and make any situation manageable. Your typical fight is forgotten and is often thought of as just part of the grind that we all loathe. The captain changes that... many times I have seen a group race into battle confident and strong from the encouragement their captain provided to suddenly realizing the situation is one of being overmatched. As power and health fade hope begins to disappear yet not all is lost! The captain can quickly bandage their wounds and refresh their minds which gives the necessary courage to continue... As the fight rages one member of the fellow is in near critical condition while yet another lies motionless nearby. The captain lunges towards those in critical condition shielding the injured just in time to prevent a tragic death while inspiring the already fallen and hopeless to fight once more. The battle rages onwards and the group begins to hold strong but the enemies attention has been drawn onto the captain and as they are to land the final blow and take the captains last breath, courage is mustered for one last stand and the enemy is vanquished. These types of things are what make fights epic, they are what people tell stories about and draw memories from. Five years from now I won't remember how hard I hit that mob or how big that heal was... what I will remember is the epic battles that come from mastering your class and having tools available that can turn around any near tragedy. This concept extends from solo play to raids or out on in the moors. These changes are great and raise the abilities of a new player but for really no good reason dramatically lower the ceiling of those who really know the class.

    However, I believe there is a very easy solution that would make both sides happy. Skill gating needs to be removed for the captain class, this is what is destroying its versatility and in my opinion very possibly destroying the fun factor this class brings to the game. There is really no need for skill gating captains while removing them will not take from the positive changes coming from this expansion. Replace the skill gates with skill boosts, give people a "minor" version of these skills by default. There is no need to remove the versatility and thus the heart and soul of this class. This change should be fairly easy to implement. It will give us back our versatility and essentially keep everything else the same.

    Thanks!

    -Kaltar of Silverlode
    Last edited by Dylbro; Nov 13 2013 at 04:06 AM.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dylbro View Post
    However, I believe there is a very easy solution that would make both sides happy. Skill gating needs to be removed for the captain class, this is what is destroying its versatility and in my opinion very possibly destroying the fun factor this class brings to the game. There is really no need for skill gating captains while removing them will not take from the positive changes coming from this expansion. Replace the skill gates with skill boosts, give people a "minor" version of these skills by default. There is no need to remove the versatility and thus the heart and soul of this class. This change should be fairly easy to implement. It will give us back our versatility and essentially keep everything else the same.
    Ya ain't getting that, because that ship sailed back in September.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Ya ain't getting that, because that ship sailed back in September.
    No ship can sail on change. If your meaning is it won't happen by launch day than that is likely correct however the class can always be modified and the change I proposed is very minor with big returns in regards to keeping the soul of the class intact.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dylbro View Post
    No ship can sail on change. If your meaning is it won't happen by launch day than that is likely correct however the class can always be modified and the change I proposed is very minor with big returns in regards to keeping the soul of the class intact.
    One of the goals (as it was beat into our heads in the beta forums) is reduction of skills in the classes, as that would run counter to what they said, I'm extremely pessimistic that it would be implemented.

    Given how long the last trait system was in place for, I imagine we're going to have the functionality they've described for many years without much in the way of changes.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Elendilmir

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

  18. #118
    RockX is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Please remember the Captain's Tactics and most of the 'brother' skills are currently hooked up to give multiple effects. There is something on each buff which any player can make use of, whether it's reducing skill costs, increasing crit chance/rating, upping mastery, reducing the damage you take, making pigs fly, etc.

    The only exceptions to this are the Standard of <x> skills (which are focused into that line's role), and To Arms. To Arms is getting altered post-launch to have the same sort of treatment (it'll give the benefits of the other two versions at a reduced potency).

    So, as a Song-brother, the Damage buffs you give to melees are not as potent as a Blade-brother. But you still give them, and can easily give them to your whole Fellowship. Meanwhile you'll be making the tank live longer, and making the Fellowship (whether it's just yourself, that RK, or your tank) heal for more at the same time.

    In this way the Captain is a stronger buffer when compared to Live.

  19. #119
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    Actually, I suspect the skill gating ship sailed way before September. I mean, the revamps were announced all the way back in January, and I'm sure there wouldn't have been an announcement without a bunch of planning meetings to lay out the basic goals and assumptions beforehand.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockX View Post
    Please remember the Captain's Tactics and most of the 'brother' skills are currently hooked up to give multiple effects. There is something on each buff which any player can make use of, whether it's reducing skill costs, increasing crit chance/rating, upping mastery, reducing the damage you take, making pigs fly, etc.

    The only exceptions to this are the Standard of <x> skills (which are focused into that line's role), and To Arms. To Arms is getting altered post-launch to have the same sort of treatment (it'll give the benefits of the other two versions at a reduced potency).

    So, as a Song-brother, the Damage buffs you give to melees are not as potent as a Blade-brother. But you still give them, and can easily give them to your whole Fellowship. Meanwhile you'll be making the tank live longer, and making the Fellowship (whether it's just yourself, that RK, or your tank) heal for more at the same time.

    In this way the Captain is a stronger buffer when compared to Live.
    Making pigs fly??? hmmmmmmmm LOL

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockX View Post
    In this way the Captain is a stronger buffer when compared to Live.
    Not exactly. A LoM Captain for example is giving:
    +1299 Parry Rating
    +3% Defence
    -10% Power Cost
    He has also lost access to Oathbreakers.

    This does nothing for a hunter smart enough to stay out of AoE range and manage his power usage.

    A captain in the other roles cannot supply the panic buffs (in harms way/shield of the dunedain) etc.

    A captain has materially LESS use to some groups in the new system no matter which line he specs in.

    We have lost flexibility in buffing, as well as in combat versatility. I still do not understand why it was necessary to tie the buffs to specs, I mean, you let us chose which of the ridiculous heralds we summon in any spec, but couldn't do this for tactics or x-brother?

  22. #122
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    Buffs look more potent to me.

    Not to mention that a lot of those other buffs are very situational. You don't NEED oathbreakers to complete BFE T2 on live. It sure helps, but its not a requirement. The same goes for Last Stand/In Harm's Way.

    With the trees though, we have to think about which role we'll go into it, and learn to work with our group to make sure nothing goes wrong

    So while we may not have as many buffs available at once, but the ones we do are more potent, and I'm cool with that. Plus, don't tell me you're not glad to not have to spend time after a raid wipe to rebuff everyone.

    Eodread, Earendel, Isilmacil - Horizon
    Thattickles, Thangorodread - Table Smashers


  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    Not to mention that a lot of those other buffs are very situational. You don't NEED oathbreakers to complete BFE T2 on live. It sure helps, but its not a requirement. The same goes for Last Stand/In Harm's Way.
    I think the new lines look interesting and I'm actually rather looking forward to trying them and experimenting.

    But don't totally minimize what is lost. I rather like currently having IHW/LS/Oathies as choices independent of how I trait. Having to spec LOM to get Last Stand is vexing, at least you can get IHW by splashing (fairly heavily) into LOM -- I wish you could get LS by just spending points rather than main spec selection. Oathies requires an LtC spec and pretty full commitment to that line. And I currently never go to the moors, even solo, without SoTD (even solo I'm often around others and I like bubbling folks and frustrating the creeps). LoM looks pretty good for the moors anyway, but it is really a shame that I can't have SoTD if I'm with HoH. Yes, you have to make choices, but it isn't clear to me that the existing panic/legendary skills had to be so tied to lines.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    I'm glad you have an opinion that you have completely failed to back up with evidence or explanation.
    Something wrong with just stating an opinion? But very well.

    On live right now, our tactics buff last 30 minutes, have to reapply each time someone dies, and only gives 1 benefit. Such as the crit buff giving x amount depending on level/LI. With HD, sure it may be tied to the LtC tree, but it gives 3838 pm and tm, about 1150 ish crit, and 5% outgoing healing. It may only last 30 seconds (45 with legacy), but with sure strike on a 3 second cooldown, and being able to use battle shout more often than once every 20 seconds, you can keep the buff up fairly often. Not to mention it effects your fellowship up to 80 meters. To me the overall benefits are better than just a little bit more crit, and with a skill rotation, will flow better in combat than stopping suddenly to rebuff.

    The x brother skills still match the tree they're in. Do I miss not having access to all 3? Yes I do, but it won't hamper my enjoyment. Plus with the legacy gone, you don't need to have a buff emblem just for that. The buffs the brother skills give are quite nice (such as a stacking 20% melee damage buff from blade brother's call is nice).

    Concerning the current legendaries. At least IDOME is combined with motivating speech, and this buff is always up! You can't even turn it off. Therefore no need to worry about stopping midway through combat to reapply that.
    Shield of the Dunedain in the tanking line for me suits, as you are in a tanking role, and even the name makes sense. Maybe I'm less nervous about it as I don't use it as much on live, but I do realize its effectiveness. But at least with HD you can even apply it to yourself, and the cooldown is shorter (thus no legacy needed for cooldown).
    Fellowship brother applies to all 3 trees (so long as you trait deep enough), and I'm ok with this.
    Oathbreakers in DPS line makes sense, as a captain in that line will be able to buff the group for more damage than the other lines.

    The way I see it, yes we don't have as many options at once, but our buffs become more situational, allowing us to make the choice before combat. Plus as others have said, you can technically go into one specialization, but can put all your points in another tree.
    So yes, we do lose some of the versatility we have, but I'm able to be more potent in any role (especially since each tree is viable). No longer will the captain just be the rallying cry spam bot (thank god that set bonus is gone and gear swapping) and just the buffers. Now each role is important.

    Eodread, Earendel, Isilmacil - Horizon
    Thattickles, Thangorodread - Table Smashers


  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    On live right now, our tactics buff last 30 minutes, have to reapply each time someone dies, and only gives 1 benefit. Such as the crit buff giving x amount depending on level/LI. With HD, sure it may be tied to the LtC tree, but it gives 3838 pm and tm, about 1150 ish crit, and 5% outgoing healing. It may only last 30 seconds (45 with legacy), but with sure strike on a 3 second cooldown, and being able to use battle shout more often than once every 20 seconds, you can keep the buff up fairly often. Not to mention it effects your fellowship up to 80 meters. To me the overall benefits are better than just a little bit more crit, and with a skill rotation, will flow better in combat than stopping suddenly to rebuff.
    Actually you cant use battle shout more often than once every 20 seconds, or maybe I missed something? I actually asked for battle shout CD to be lowered.

    Yes it works up to 80 meters, this is an interesting point because... unfortunately in Big Battles or whatever your group may be more than 80 meters apart, and the old 30 minute buff would have been more useful...

    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    The x brother skills still match the tree they're in. Do I miss not having access to all 3? Yes I do, but it won't hamper my enjoyment. Plus with the legacy gone, you don't need to have a buff emblem just for that. The buffs the brother skills give are quite nice (such as a stacking 20% melee damage buff from blade brother's call is nice)..
    It won't hamper your enjoyment? Good for you! I thought we weren't looking at opinion in this post.

    I never had an emblem for just the legacy. And our previous buffs were nice too! So, erm, what does this have to do with disproving the fact that only having access to one brother skill is a loss? Nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    Concerning the current legendaries. At least IDOME is combined with motivating speech, and this buff is always up! You can't even turn it off. Therefore no need to worry about stopping midway through combat to reapply that. .
    Yep, as long as your group stays within 20 meters. But you know, big battles... wide spread out groups... oh look, this change is actually less useful in the latest content!

    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    Shield of the Dunedain in the tanking line for me suits, as you are in a tanking role, and even the name makes sense. Maybe I'm less nervous about it as I don't use it as much on live, but I do realize its effectiveness. But at least with HD you can even apply it to yourself, and the cooldown is shorter (thus no legacy needed for cooldown). .
    Unless you have a real tank that wants SoD without you having to trait tanking... and as for cooldown changes, a little look around shows that most long duration skills had their cooldowns reduced for every class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    Fellowship brother applies to all 3 trees (so long as you trait deep enough), and I'm ok with this.
    Um ok. I'm glad for you. What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    Oathbreakers in DPS line makes sense, as a captain in that line will be able to buff the group for more damage than the other lines.
    Well sure, if you buy the whole "one spec = 1 buff" thing I am pointing out is flawed. What if you are the healer but you want to buff the groups DPS? FAIL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    The way I see it, yes we don't have as many options at once, but our buffs become more situational, allowing us to make the choice before combat. Plus as others have said, you can technically go into one specialization, but can put all your points in another tree.
    And nerf yourself because you only get half as many actual skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    So yes, we do lose some of the versatility we have,
    Well I'm glad you agree with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isilmacil View Post
    but I'm able to be more potent in any role (especially since each tree is viable).
    In theory. Results have yet to be seen. And yeah, wanna make a bet or two on how many 12 man t2cm get tanked or mainhealed by a captain? I could use some easy money.
    Last edited by Isdring; Nov 13 2013 at 10:14 PM.

 

 
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